| Zaza Gabor 07.12.2012 06:08 |
Hi everybody, this thread originates from my previous “what did they read” thread. I’ve really enjoyed it, thanks everyone and I hope you’ll remain as awesome as before, except: there’s some massive offtop lingering in the air which I think I’ll better get before it gets me XD The Queen is such a huge heritage and I understand that discussing its influences may sometimes suffer from, let’s say, from being bound to particular themes or facts. So, if you have any theory, urban legend, or fake – I mean unproven – fact about what influenced what, please share it here with no limits whatsoever. I hope that works XD Still appreciate you coming to discuss literature matters in What Did They Read thread :-) |
| ANAGRAMER 07.12.2012 12:00 |
Good topic but the queen catalogue is too extensive to quote a single influence Early queen has echoes of Hendrix, black Sabbath through to the Beatles on anato You can hear shades of led zepplin on notw Jazz is on its own; weird The game has Elvis, chic, the police, Beatles Lets not discuss hs! In the 80s the albums were less cohesive; individual tracks almost parodies of themselves And lets not forget Ghostbusters! - its criminal how I can, see right through you... |
| pianoshizzle 07.12.2012 13:27 |
I remember reading an unfavourable review of Queen I (archived ont he internet) that Brian copied riffs, or licks of Jimmy Page (hence the Led Zepplin influence). I think also that Roger and John playing together gave them a Led Zepplin quality too (most notably on 'See What A Fool I've Been which is from the early Queen era). |
| The Real Wizard 07.12.2012 14:49 |
Zeppelin and Black Sabbath influences are all over the first album. Son And Daughter could've been a bonus track on Paranoid. |
| pittrek 07.12.2012 15:25 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Son And Daughter could've been a bonus track on Paranoid.Brian was definitely HEAVILY influenced by Sabbath in the early days, SAD, Hangman, Prophet ... they do sound like Sabbath songs to me |
| MartynTS 07.12.2012 15:34 |
pittrek wrote:The Real Wizard wrote: Son And Daughter could've been a bonus track on Paranoid.Brian was definitely HEAVILY influenced by Sabbath in the early days, SAD, Hangman, Prophet ... they do sound like Sabbath songs to me I absolutely agree with you both, Black Sabbath is the first name that comes to my head. I can hear some Hendrix too, such as the riff to Keep Youself Alive. Led Zeppelin had an impact I'm sure. The same goes with The Beatles. I also think Jeff Beck had an impact on Brian's playing. Was there any influence from Mott The Hoople? Can't say I've seriously listned to their music. |
| GuitarMay 07.12.2012 22:40 |
Good topic. I believe, Queen have been heavily influencied by The Who too, because the style of backing vocals and chorus for diverses songs of Queen. Anybody agree ?? |
| Zaza Gabor 07.12.2012 23:13 |
GuitarMay wrote: Good topic. I believe, Queen have been heavily influencied by The Who too, because the style of backing vocals and chorus for diverses songs of Queen. Anybody agree ??Brian May agrees :-) From the interview link "We loved The Who. Now, The Who had the beginnings of harmonies and they were very kind of rough and hooligan and we liked that. We liked this sort of element of danger that was in The Who. But I suppose we took our harmonies a lot more seriously and I remember Pete Townsend, we met him quite early on, we went to record in his studio and he said ‘Brian where did all of this harmony stuff come from? Did you study it?’ and I actually didn’t know what to say. I said ‘I don’t know if I studied it, we listened to people including you and something happened in our heads’. |
| Zaza Gabor 07.12.2012 23:26 |
I'm so glad that Black Sabbath influence surfaces, I think it should be quoted more often. When Brian said Freddie hit the stage in the era when other rock frontmen hardly ever moved he didn't mean Ozzy, did he? XD |
| Ozz 08.12.2012 05:50 |
Queen cited influences were: The Beatles Cream The Who Jimi Hendrix Beach Boys David Bowie Mott the Hopple The Yardbirds Led Zeppellin Elvis Presley Aretha Franklin - I think there's a lot of Wishful thinking about us fans today determining early Queen influences. As much as i see the similarities between early sabbath and songs like Son & Daughter, there's no evidence of that. In Any Case, Ozzy's Biography shows that was indeed the opposite: When Sabbath split, one of the reasons were that Tony Iommi wanted Sabbath to sound more like Foreigner and Queen |
| thomasquinn 32989 08.12.2012 06:54 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Zeppelin and Black Sabbath influences are all over the first album. Son And Daughter could've been a bonus track on Paranoid.If they'd had a vocalist who could actually sing. I've always felt that Black Sabbath was seriously held back by Ozzy's complete lack of singing ability, whereas Son and Daughter is a song that would completely fall apart if it were performed by a poor singer. |
| Zaza Gabor 08.12.2012 09:50 |
Ozz wrote: Queen cited influences were: The Beatles Cream The Who Jimi Hendrix Beach Boys David Bowie Mott the Hopple The Yardbirds Led Zeppellin Elvis Presley Aretha Franklin - I think there's a lot of Wishful thinking about us fans today determining early Queen influences. As much as i see the similarities between early sabbath and songs like Son & Daughter, there's no evidence of that. In Any Case, Ozzy's Biography shows that was indeed the opposite: When Sabbath split, one of the reasons were that Tony Iommi wanted Sabbath to sound more like Foreigner and QueenC'mon. Black Sabbath influence is a fact! Just think: they obviously knew each other. They sound very much alike. How can it be NOT an influence? It's another question why it isn't quoted. Well, people tend to underrate Black Sabbath, they don't ask about their influence like they ask about Beatles. Or, there is some tension they don’t want to mention… It’s so typical for The Queen, to pick up an influence and take it to the next level. Ozzy might seriously dislike that :D |
| The Real Wizard 08.12.2012 10:17 |
MartynTS wrote: Was there any influence from Mott The Hoople? Can't say I've seriously listned to their music.Mott's 1974 live album (recorded in '73) is definitely worth a listen. Now I'm Here chronicles the early tours with Mott, and the middle section (particularly the piano) is definitely influenced by All The Way From Memphis... which Brian later covered in the 90s. |
| The Real Wizard 08.12.2012 10:20 |
Zaza Gabor wrote: people tend to underrate Black Sabbath, they don't ask about their influence like they ask about Beatles.Depends who you're talking to. If you ask virtually anyone in the world of metal, Sabbath are gods. They paved the way for entire genres of music. Metallica, Iron Maiden, Dream Theater, Savatage (and by extension the Trans-Siberian Orchestra), Winger, Testament, Opeth, Stratovarius and Apocalyptica would not exist if it were not for Sabbath. Btw - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage are amongst the greatest rock/metal records ever made. These are overshadowed by the early records, but musically speaking these records are definitely their peak. |
| Day dop 08.12.2012 21:25 |
I remember reading also that at one point In the mid to late 70's, Tony lommi wanted Sabbath to sound more like Queen, according to Ozzy's biography. (Edit update - I've just read the comment above which said the same thing before me here) |
| Zaza Gabor 09.12.2012 05:25 |
The Real Wizard wrote: If you ask virtually anyone in the world of metal, Sabbath are gods. They paved the way for entire genres of music. Metallica, Iron Maiden, Dream Theater, Savatage (and by extension the Trans-Siberian Orchestra), Winger, Testament, Opeth, Stratovarius and Apocalyptica would not exist if it were not for Sabbath. Exactly! Which makes them one of the most influential bands ever. So much that to say early Queen were influenced by heavy metal actually means they were influenced by Black Sabbath. These were synonyms :D Like I said, general public and some music historians tend to underrate both Black Sabbath and whole trend of heavy metal rock. The Queen definitely underrates it in their quotes; maybe because they turned to a different path later or because of opinion that metal rock direction as such leads nowhere. That’s a shame because it’s such an exciting chapter of music history. These bands are contemporaries. There’s an interesting story underneath, so many questions. Why early Queen sounds so much like Black Sabbath and why years latter Tonni Iommi wants Black Sabbath sound like Queen? Why Sabbath delivered and The Queen needed time to find their way? Plus, it’s just hilarious to imagine young Queen as a bunch of gothic performers XD |
| Day dop 09.12.2012 05:34 |
"Plus, it’s just hilarious to imagine young Queen as a bunch of gothic performers" Queen II wasn't so far off that. |
| Zaza Gabor 09.12.2012 06:06 |
Day dop wrote: "Plus, it’s just hilarious to imagine young Queen as a bunch of gothic performers" Queen II wasn't so far off that.I know XD |
| Zaza Gabor 10.12.2012 10:48 |
Zaza Gabor wrote:Well I guess what I meant was, not like they would be hilariously bad as gothic performers. It’s just the knowledge they were four overall nice well-bred college guys that makes the contrast and abovementioned “XD”Day dop wrote: "Plus, it’s just hilarious to imagine young Queen as a bunch of gothic performers" Queen II wasn't so far off that.I know XD |
| alkerdkhon 14.12.2012 05:13 |
I had gone through the post. I heard about this one of my friends but not having complete idea regarding this. Could you please produce some more attachments regarding this? Thanks in advance. Medical Delivery Delivery Service |
| Zaza Gabor 14.12.2012 21:46 |
alkerdkhon wrote: I had gone through the post. I heard about this one of my friends but not having complete idea regarding this. Could you please produce some more attachments regarding this? Thanks in advance.Darling, I honestly think people here would love to help and that they have some supply of attachments, too. Could you just DEFINE what exactly you want? |
| Zaza Gabor 27.12.2012 09:46 |
Is it true that Brian had his arm broken once? Did it influence his playing skills? Merry Christmas by the way XD |
| brENsKi 27.12.2012 12:42 |
1. yes he did 2. i am 100% confident that (even) you can answer that yourself |
| Zaza Gabor 27.12.2012 13:52 |
brENsKi wrote: 1. yes he did 2. i am 100% confident that (even) you can answer that yourself1. When? 2. Honest, no. There’s that thing that Brian apparently can’t play as fast as speed metal guys (some people around me have been listening to Brian&Eddie Van Halen tracks lately, you know) so I just thought, maybe it’s because of that. Well, I guess I need to know when it happened to be able to tell (even) myself XD |
| tomchristie22 27.12.2012 21:23 |
Zaza Gabor wrote:He could probably play faster than he usually does if he wanted to. He just has no reason to, considering, you know, he doesn't play speed metal.brENsKi wrote: 1. yes he did 2. i am 100% confident that (even) you can answer that yourself1. When? 2. Honest, no. There’s that thing that Brian apparently can’t play as fast as speed metal guys (some people around me have been listening to Brian&Eddie Van Halen tracks lately, you know) so I just thought, maybe it’s because of that. Well, I guess I need to know when it happened to be able to tell (even) myself XD |
| Zaza Gabor 28.12.2012 05:54 |
tomchristie22 wrote: He could probably play faster than he usually does if he wanted to. He just has no reason to, considering, you know, he doesn't play speed metal.Could he, really? Have you any proof? |
| Sebastian 28.12.2012 16:35 |
Zaza Gabor wrote:Just think: they obviously knew each other. They sound very much alike. How can it be NOT an influence?How? Simple: if they were both influenced by the same people, which they were. I'm not denying that Sabbath may have been a strong influence, BTW, I'm simply pointing that knowing each other and sounding alike is not enough to factually state one was an influence on the other. My brother resembles me more than he resembles our parents. Does it mean I'm his father? No: it means we both have the same father. |
| The Real Wizard 28.12.2012 18:49 |
Zaza Gabor wrote:The Invisible Man.tomchristie22 wrote: He could probably play faster than he usually does if he wanted to. He just has no reason to, considering, you know, he doesn't play speed metal.Could he, really? Have you any proof? He had the chops, but it wasn't his style so he didn't build upon it. |
| Zaza Gabor 29.12.2012 06:06 |
Sebastian wrote:Well, they all breathed the same musical air in sixties; I guess they have a crowd of same fathers XDZaza Gabor wrote:Just think: they obviously knew each other. They sound very much alike. How can it be NOT an influence?How? Simple: if they were both influenced by the same people, which they were. I'm not denying that Sabbath may have been a strong influence, BTW, I'm simply pointing that knowing each other and sounding alike is not enough to factually state one was an influence on the other. My brother resembles me more than he resembles our parents. Does it mean I'm his father? No: it means we both have the same father. I think I’m rather talking about the influence the stronger has on the weaker. I’d define The Queen as “more flexible” rather than weak but the point is Sabbath were the first to put their bits together and create a strong identity. That’s why I say they were the influence. |
| Zaza Gabor 29.12.2012 06:14 |
The Real Wizard wrote:All credits to Brian for this cute speedy solo but the proof isn’t good enough. No serious riffing is needed to play that. What leaves the audience jaw dropped in speed guitar competitions is exactly the left hand technique, the riffing, not how fast you can play one chord.Zaza Gabor wrote:The Invisible Man. He had the chops, but it wasn't his style so he didn't build upon it.tomchristie22 wrote: He could probably play faster than he usually does if he wanted to. He just has no reason to, considering, you know, he doesn't play speed metal.Could he, really? Have you any proof? Seriously, which arm did he break? |
| Holly2003 29.12.2012 06:42 |
Dead on Time maybe? Princes of the Universe? Resurrection? |
| Zaza Gabor 29.12.2012 09:44 |
Holly2003 wrote: Dead on Time maybe? Princes of the Universe? Resurrection?Couldn’t find Resurrection on YouTube, must be mistyping or smth :-( Dead on Time might be the most complicated thus far, but still. I don’t find there those big intervals between the lower and the higher note in his speed sequences that suggest about an intricate riff job. |
| Holly2003 29.12.2012 10:12 |
Resurrection is a solo song. "big intervals between the lower and the higher note in his speed sequences that suggest about an intricate riff job" -- what does that mean exactly? |
| john bodega 29.12.2012 11:09 |
The key to Brian is that he's meticulous. One can learn one of his bits and play it fine, but unless you keep that idea in your head - meticulous - then it won't necessarily sound right. I'm as guilty as anyone who covers Brian stuff when it comes to playing the same notes but not really getting it 'right'. |
| Zaza Gabor 29.12.2012 11:13 |
Holly2003 wrote: "big intervals between the lower and the higher note in his speed sequences that suggest about an intricate riff job" -- what does that mean exactly?There you can see the riff action where those big intervals between notes are involved: in this vid Steve is playing from higher note to lower and then up-down, up-down and all the way back. link Actually, closer to the end (after sec 45) he keeps it within each chord a bit, which is similar to what Brian so loves to do :-) |
| Holly2003 29.12.2012 14:01 |
I'm confused: you began talking about speed and asked if Brian could play as fast as speed metalists. Now you're mostly talking about scales. Brian could play fast but he wasn't a shredder because, as he said himself, his brain didn't work that way. He was more interested in melody than playing 30 notes a second. Steve Vai is amazing, of course. Brian has said he couldn't play like Vai and vice versa. They;re not just being generous to eachother: they're just interested in doing differnet things. On Star Fleet I happen to think Eddie gets the better of that "battle" but Brian plays as fast as Eddie on occasion. I just don;t think he;s very comfortable doing it whereas for Eddie it comes naturally (and sounds great). But as amazing and as fast as he is, Eddie's never composed or played anything like Good Company. |
| The Real Wizard 29.12.2012 16:15 |
Zaza Gabor wrote: There you can see the riff action where those big intervals between notes are involved: in this vid Steve is playing from higher note to lower and then up-down, up-down and all the way back. linkRight, of course this is technique beyond Brian's scope of playing. But there are guys who could play Vai under the table too. Shawn Lane's speed and precision are unparalleled. And then there are guys like Andy McKee and Tommy Emmanuel - so many great players who have mastered the instrument in so many different ways. But no single person has ever been able to encompass all of these styles into one. The amount of time required very likely makes it an impossible task. So this is why it's ultimately pointless to imply that certain players are somehow lacking because they didn't do it all. I'd say the closest thing to a guitarist with excellent chops and composition is Steve Howe. Most guys have one or the other. Since we're comparing Vai to May, here it is in a nutshell: Vai spent his prime years working on his technique. Brian spent his prime years working on composition and arrangement. Guess who's gonna be remembered 100 years from now? |
| Zaza Gabor 29.12.2012 16:53 |
Holly2003 wrote: I'm confused: you began talking about speed and asked if Brian could play as fast as speed metalists. Now you're mostly talking about scales.I’d know you will be because I picked Steve Vai XD I wouldn’t call Vai a shredder, too. He’s way too intelligent :-) Basically, I was just trying to explain what I’m missing in Brian’s technique in those particular solos. The Real Wizard wrote: Right, of course this is technique beyond Brian's scope of playing. But there are guys who could play Vai under the table too.Once we are talking about speed metal icons, why not Michael Angelo Batio: link Given that, can you imagine any serious speed metal ambition without doing those scales – FAST, of course? Certainly, Brian has his own strengths and his guitar brain is precious. The word “meticulous” has been mentioned, and yes, he apparently is until he gets an amazing quality sound. That Invisible Man solo, I don’t think any listener misses shredding here because it sounds just so good. However, I still don’t get why you guys dislike my “broken arm” theory. This fact is rarely quoted, which makes it interesting; and I don’t think it’s a great big disrespect to wonder if Brian might use his brain to cover up some technique problems. Doing so is not necessarily a bad thing. |
| The Real Wizard 30.12.2012 00:51 |
Not sure what you can base the theory on, though. He's getting older and he's not as agile as he was 20 years ago... that could be the extent of it. But chops are such a small portion of the bigger picture. Brian's most memorable work isn't about the chops - it's about the quality of composition. He'll still be able to play them when he's 80. |
| john bodega 30.12.2012 02:19 |
Guthrie Govan's a monster player. I can't remember any of his songs, but fark he is talented. |
| Sebastian 30.12.2012 08:50 |
Since we're comparing Vai to May, here it is in a nutshell: Vai spent his prime years working on his technique. Brian spent his prime years working on composition and arrangement. Guess who's gonna be remembered 100 years from now?IMO, both. Brian's a more successful composer, Steve's a far better guitarist. |
| Holly2003 30.12.2012 08:54 |
Speed metal has its place of course but 5 mins listening to the Rain Song by Led Zep should be enough to tell anyone that there's absolute beauty in (relative) simplicity: link |
| Zaza Gabor 02.01.2013 11:02 |
Sebastian wrote:I wonder if Steve’s actually ever quoted Brian as an influence. I mean, it’s obvious that he’s treating his harmonies very Brian-ish at times. But has he admitted it’s because of Brian? Or a same father it might be XDSince we're comparing Vai to May, here it is in a nutshell: Vai spent his prime years working on his technique. Brian spent his prime years working on composition and arrangement. Guess who's gonna be remembered 100 years from now?IMO, both. Brian's a more successful composer, Steve's a far better guitarist. The Real Wizard wrote: Not sure what you can base the theory on, though.Well, I think I can base it on… nothing XD I’m not really convinced that that broken arm fact ever took place. Most of the sources ignore it. Certainly it’s not the most important fact about The Queen, but still. Top musicians don’t break their bones every day. It should affect something, the schedule if nothing else. As far as the only widely known schedule breaking health fact about Brian is the hepatitis infection in 1974, I guess I’ll stick to a new theory that the whole “broken arm” thing is an urban legend created on the basis of the same event :-) However, I’m quite happy with the turn the discussion took, about Brian being Brian because he doesn’t want to be different or because he simply can’t ;-) |
| Sebastian 02.01.2013 15:42 |
Steve's indeed cited Brian as an influence, and cited Brian's arrangement of God Save the Queen as an influence for Liberty. Brian's arm accident is documented on the Making of Smoke on the Water (Rock Aid Armenia), it took place in 1989. As for who'll be remembered the most ... Madonna and Justin Bieber will probably be far more remembered than both, does it make them better musicians? |
| The Real Wizard 02.01.2013 20:17 |
Good point ... unfortunately. |
| john bodega 03.01.2013 03:22 |
"Madonna and Justin Bieber will probably be far more remembered than both" I really wouldn't bank on either. Madonna is the sort of turdpile that people pay lip service to in order to try and have a frame of reference when it comes to evaluating a new female act. All of her much vaunted 'reinvention' isn't much of a disguise for the fact that she's always been as appealing as a bucket of flat Coke. She's cited as an influence or an industry icon purely as an institutionalised form of asskissing, sucking up, and pandering. And as for Justin Bieber - I just don't see it. He might have a quaint Rick Astley sort of appeal in thirty years hence, but if that's what being 'remembered' means then I'm not sure Brian would be turning handsprings for that sort of accolade. Like Zappa said it - 'people like George Bush want to be remembered'. |
| The Real Wizard 03.01.2013 10:57 |
Zebonka12 wrote: she's always been as appealing as a bucket of flat Coke.What an insult to flat Coke. It has its merits. |
| Zaza Gabor 03.01.2013 11:15 |
They will all be remembered for different reasons. I guess Madonna will be remembered in the same category where Simon Cowell is XD Justin Bieber would go to kid sex symbols and you can’t miss The Queen when it’s about rock song arrangements. I wouldn’t gamble and say what might really matter in hundred years though. Music has changed quite mad in the hundred years we just had. |
| The Real Wizard 03.01.2013 11:46 |
We have to wonder what from the last 100 years will actually be listened to 100 years from now.. The true movers and shakers - Elvis, Beatles, Michael Jackson, Sinatra, John Williams ? I reckon the majority of the last 30 years will not be looked at as having had much relevance in the grand scheme of things. Over-saturation (think Huxley) and corporate greed are the two things that come to mind. |
| Zaza Gabor 03.01.2013 13:32 |
The technology has it. What 18th or 19th century music stars you know? All whom we remember basically are composers because notes were the only way how to distribute music. Last century changed it from music records to radio to TV to internet; from electric sound to digital, big names practically all performers. Lately, it’s been sound producers introducing performers and vice versa. I start to fear the future XD |
| Sebastian 03.01.2013 20:27 |
Those things are really unpredictable. Very few people remembered any of Johann Pachelbel's compositions a few years after he died ... then suddenly there was the whole hype about his Canon in D in the 20th century and now that piece is far far far more famous than it was in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries combined (literally). It's 99.99% sure that 22nd century people will know who The Beatles were, and Michael Jackson, but others aren't guaranteed either way. |
| waunakonor 03.01.2013 20:36 |
Zebonka12 wrote: And as for Justin Bieber - I just don't see it. He might have a quaint Rick Astley sort of appeal in thirty years hence...So in 30 years is a JB song going to become a ubiquitous Internet meme? Oh boy, I can't wait for that. |
| Zaza Gabor 04.01.2013 08:47 |
Sebastian wrote: It's 99.99% sure that 22nd century people will know who The Beatles were, and Michael Jackson, but others aren't guaranteed either way.I wouldn't guarantee anything to anybody. It's a long time. Many things can happen that can make even The Beatles and Jackson seem unimportant. However, it's even more fun if we try to predict the development of things in much closer future. So, there's been The Queen in CD format, then The Queen remastered... is there anything new to expect in ten years from now? |
| Zaza Gabor 06.01.2013 10:51 |
Oops! I’ve been spamming! |
| Zaza Gabor 10.01.2013 16:40 |
Oops! I’ve been spamming! |
| Zaza Gabor 17.01.2013 17:28 |
Oops! I’ve been spamming! |