| kdj2hot 17.08.2012 09:53 |
link |
| pittrek 17.08.2012 10:27 |
What the fuck was that ? Do something like that about Muhammad and not Jesus if you have balls |
| thomasquinn 32989 18.08.2012 00:27 |
pittrek wrote: What the fuck was that ? Do something like that about Muhammad and not Jesus if you have balls Oh god, are you another one of those messed up fucks who think everything in the world should be about islam? NEWSFLASH: while every fucking hypocrite in the western world is pointing to the Arabic world to be pleasantly morally outraged, we have a) a Catholic church that has the *only ruler of a major religion in the world who is also the ABSOLUTE MONARCH of a worldly state* - Catholic mass murder in Africa by withholding condoms and spreading lies about AIDS - Mass child abuse across the world by priests, who are then protected by bishops and cardinals - Pope-approved state-terrorism in Africa and South America under the header "anti-communism" b) Protestantism that tells people: - the Catholics are wrong about everything, except that it is your Christian duty to harass, intimidate and attack homosexuals because they violate rules *you* believe in - all immigrants are godless, or worse, Catholics, and should be excluded from society in every possible way - Televangelism is the Lord's Way! Get me $10 000 000,- by the weekend, and your dead, unbaptized child's soul will be saved. If not, it will rightfully burn in hell. - You are doing the Lord's work when you bomb an abortion clinic - Women who are raped and get pregnant should have the child, regardless of how they themselves feel, because "God wants it that way". Need more examples? The Dutch conservative Christian party, which fortunately has only a few seats in parliament, does not allow women to be elected. Not only that, it doesn't allow women to vote: their husbands have to vote for them. If they don't have a husband, no problem. Their father can vote for them. Not fifty miles from my home town, it is a municipal violation, punishable by a fine, to watch television on sundays. So don't give me this "do something like that about Muhammad and not Jesus" crap, you sad, sad man. |
| GratefulFan 19.08.2012 18:58 |
Mass child abuse across the world by priests. Okay there Thomas. There is no evidence that suggests that Catholicism has any more of a problem with these criminal acts than any other religious denomination, at least not in North America. I seem to recall reading something similar in British media a few years ago. I really wonder about the impact of the way the issues have been covered by the media and parsed by the public when we see, again and again, individuals and organizations continuing to cover up these kinds of crimes even in the wake of this new awareness via the Catholic Church. The Penn State shuffle under the carpet of Sandusky's terrible abuses was at the height of the Church scandals in 2002, and Scouts Canada just this year had their own rampant failures uncovered by a CBC investigation that followed similar problems in the US. It seems to me we suffer as a society when these criminal acts are too loosely pinned to the skilled predators that commit them and too strongly associated with the organizations in which they move without regard for context including the standards of the day in abuse reporting and the cultural state of children's rights. Nobody, it seems, wants to be seen as the next Catholic Church. Even at the expense of future victims. Ironic. |
| thomasquinn 32989 20.08.2012 03:14 |
Every social group with such bizarre norms such as celibacy will have a high instance of sexual abuse. Catholics are definitely not alone in this, but as you might have noticed, I was giving a list of horrid behaviour by Christians, because some people, like pittrek, believe you may only criticize muslims, whereas criticism of Christianity is, as you can induce from his words, an example of "not having balls". I mentioned sexual abuse of children under Catholicism because that is what the Catholics are currently facing as their No.1 source of shame. It is not representative of Catholicism as a whole, but then again, neither are terrorism and intimidation representative of Islam as a whole. |
| pittrek 20.08.2012 06:27 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: because some people, like pittrek, believe you may only criticize muslims,Sorry man, but you have absolutely no idea what do I believe :-) |
| GratefulFan 20.08.2012 07:11 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Every social group with such bizarre norms such as celibacy will have a high instance of sexual abuse.High relative to what? Statistics underneath the accepted wisdom have never supported the idea that Catholic priests are more likely to sexually abuse children than church leaders in other denominations. It's certainly not high relative to the general risk in society where children are many times more likely to be abused at home or at school. So again, high relative to what? |
| Micrówave 20.08.2012 10:58 |
Uh oh.... someone stepped in the TQ Bear-trap.
thomasquinn 90210 wrote: Not fifty miles from my home town, it is a municipal violation, punishable by a fine, to watch television on sundays.Sounds like someone needs to move about fifty miles. |
| thomasquinn 32989 20.08.2012 12:41 |
GratefulFan wrote:thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Every social group with such bizarre norms such as celibacy will have a high instance of sexual abuse.High relative to what? Statistics underneath the accepted wisdom have never supported the idea that Catholic priests are more likely to sexually abuse children than church leaders in other denominations. It's certainly not high relative to the general risk in society where children are many times more likely to be abused at home or at school. So again, high relative to what? High relative to the population as a whole. There is very little accurate statistical material about sexual abuse, but the trend it suggests is that relatives are the most usual culprits, followed by friends & acquaintances, then people in a position of authority, including teachers, physicians and priests and ministers. I don't think catholicism has a higher instance of child abuse than protestantism, judaism or islam, to name but a few. I do, however, hold that priests, ministers, rabbis and imams, especially those from fundamentalist backgrounds will be statistically overrepresented amongst perpetrators. The reason is simple - a hysterical approach to sexuality, which results in sexually frustrated individuals. The reason catholicism is attracting attention is because it is a huge, monolithic institution, and that institution is currently doing all it can to cover up their sexual scandals. |
| GratefulFan 21.08.2012 12:40 |
I'd challenge you to produce statistics that indicate clergy from any faith offend at a rate greater than the general population, or any other single profession. I'm not aware of any, but am always open to new information. The statistics I've seen actually seem to indicate the opposite - that clergy offend at a rate significantly lower than the general population. Unfortunately the entire issue is completely polluted with these kind of "everybody knows" 'facts' that are unsupported and frequently dead wrong. Religion, and probably Catholicism in particular, is one of those things that people just feel entitled to reach out and poke in eye without feeling much need to responsibly support their position with considered research. People don't generally expect much resistance and seem to be willing even to be somewhat nonsensical in the certainty there will be little effective challenge. How can celibacy be a major risk that leads to this 'high' incidence of abuse when you acknowledge that there is no appreciable difference between religions? Do other faiths have some other set of risks that Catholics don't have? Some kind of mitigating factor that suppresses Catholic offenders, but for their celibacy? As far as I can tell abuse by Catholic priests rose and fell with the rest of society. Reporting and serious treatment by civil authorities follows a similar trend. It is certainly not clear to me that the Catholic Church "is doing all it can to cover up". There has been some unprecedented change and openness, and there remains some stubborn reticence. What does seem clear to me is that the disproportionate media response and the ignorance it has engendered has been been nothing but a hindrance to disclosure, not only in the Catholic Church, but everywhere. A huge, powerful, and entrenched organization like the Catholic Church does need significant, steady and unrelenting pressure to force change, but whatever the sweet spot would have been to truly advance understanding of the issue and the risks and the responsibilities every person has to address these kinds of crimes, it is long lost in the dust of sensationalism and religious bigotry. Too bad. |
| thomasquinn 32989 21.08.2012 13:23 |
@GratefulFan: Google Scholar is your friend: link High incidences of sexual abuse in Catholic institutions has been a regular topic of investigation since the late 1950s. |
| Micrówave 21.08.2012 14:15 |
Love it. So goes, the trap has been pulled. Now a worthless link to "google" trying to back up his claim. No, he's not going to actually do any research, that's up to you. TQ does not fact-check. Alas, the trap. So, I will also provide a link about the rampant abuse by bricklayers... yes, guys who laid bricks. It was an epidemic back then and still not talked about today blah blah blah... link Once the victim tries to point out that his information doesn't add up, a series of personal attacks will begin and they could be very wide ranging.... from your religious upbringing to your admiration of a politiician or a generalized "your Country is so ____ ". I'd just eat your leg off at the knee, GF, It's all the Catholics fault. I wonder if this is what kdj2hot was hoping for. I have yet to even watch the youtube clip, probably won't. |
| Hangman_96 21.08.2012 17:12 |
Why can't everybody just come to the conclusion that the topic starter is an idiot and leave the goddamn discussion behind? It could be going on forever. This has to be said in every second topic on QZ... |
| thomasquinn 32989 22.08.2012 03:59 |
Micrówave wrote: Love it. So goes, the trap has been pulled. Now a worthless link to "google" trying to back up his claim. No, he's not going to actually do any research, that's up to you. TQ does not fact-check. Alas, the trap. So, I will also provide a link about the rampant abuse by bricklayers... yes, guys who laid bricks. It was an epidemic back then and still not talked about today blah blah blah... link Once the victim tries to point out that his information doesn't add up, a series of personal attacks will begin and they could be very wide ranging.... from your religious upbringing to your admiration of a politiician or a generalized "your Country is so ____ ". I'd just eat your leg off at the knee, GF, It's all the Catholics fault. I wonder if this is what kdj2hot was hoping for. I have yet to even watch the youtube clip, probably won't. The difference being that the first three articles in list I linked to all cite sources on sexual abuse in the Catholic church, the oldest citations dating to around 1960. Evidently, you don't read. |
| GratefulFan 22.08.2012 06:47 |
I can't conceive of anything I feel less bear trapped by than transparently terrible reasoning. A high number of newspaper articles or scholarly investigations does not translate to a high incidence of sexual abuse. Similarly, old crimes are not equivalent to a disproportionate number of crimes. The first work didn't get two paragraphs before it noted that celibacy is a bit of a dead end as a sexual motivation for abuse. Virtually nothing you have claimed here Thomas has basis in fact. Quit while you're behind so you can just be smug and wrong instead of smug, wrong and sounding like an ass. |
| Micrówave 22.08.2012 10:10 |
The difference being that the first three articles in list I linked to all cite sources on sexual abuse in the Catholic church, the oldest citations dating to around 1960. Evidently, you don't read.As predicted. (Satire ON)Thank you for your 3 articles. I had heard about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, I just didn't know anyone had written any articles about it.(Satire OFF) a worthless link and now the personal attack. Evidently, I don't read. Fair enough, I don't need to read your 3 articles, because they're not relevant to your argument. However, I seem to be an excellent judge of character. I was able to correctly predict your course of action on this thread and more. Carry on, TQ, |
| thomasquinn 32989 22.08.2012 12:15 |
You people are defending the undefendable, and are trying to cover it up by opening a new front, which I am not falling for. As you are perfectly well aware, there is no statistical evidence of sexual abuse in any group because, surprise, surprise, most perpetrators and victims don't actually report it for counting. Therefore, you have to find some other measure to compare situations. The number of official inquiries, or university papers, or newspaper reports, or a host of other things, could be used, each with varying degrees of precision and reliability. I am not going to argue with you any further, as I never wanted to go into this bullshit to begin with. I stand by the original point I was making before we were so oddly diverted, namely that it is pretty disturbing to yell "do it about the Muslims instead!" every time something unfriendly to Christianity appears. |
| Micrówave 22.08.2012 15:05 |
Yes, you probably should have stopped right there, if even that. |
| GratefulFan 22.08.2012 20:51 |
What a crock. You should be ashamed of yourself Thomas. An accusation of "defending the indefensible" is the last refuge of lazy, incompetent thinkers and religious bigots everywhere on this topic. The only thing I'm defending is the self evident principle that bad facts make for bad conclusions, and that bad conclusions seldom contribute much to optimal action. I think the fact that there is every indication that the tragic misperception of priorities that benefited the Church at the expense of victims continues to play out over and over again in other organizations parallel to these terrible and very public scandals indicates that we have to seriously consider that we've missed something important. That the energy that's been applied to making the world a stupider, less informed and more blindly outraged place has cost us an opportunity to achieve something more. You'd apparently rather indulge your cavalier prejudice to the point of genuine absurdity. There is plenty of statistical evidence Thomas. That a crime is under reported does not mean that the information we do have has no value. Law enforcement, civil judgements, child protection agencies, insurance underwriters, extensive and meticulous files and histories made public by the Church itself and studied, educated estimates all contribute to a very real record with very real information about the crime of child sexual abuse across society. Seriously, you're either a bit of a moron or so flush with entitlement to your sloppiness with a serious issue because it involves an institution that you personally seem to hold in low regard that you're a little irrational. If I were more religious I'd pray for you. LOL. |
| Donna13 23.08.2012 12:01 |
Thomas tends to conveniently misinterpret comments, just to have an excuse to spout off. If we could create a thread called "Lecture of the Day" some of us might enjoy adding to it. Ha. Anyway, I think you should always leave your opponent with some wiggle room or face saving options. I haven't seen the video. But I bet Madonna is somehow jealous she didn't think of it first - whatever it was. |
| YAFF 17.12.2012 10:49 |
kdj2hot wrote: linkLook, I'm Christian and I really should be offended by the content of this alleged "song" but it's too deliberate and low-brow to be offensive in content. Nay, I'm rather offended by the utter lack of musical talent on display here. A monkey scratching it's ass on a tree creates a better sound than your cursed vocal chords |