| soxtalon 07.08.2012 08:37 |
I'm sure this is a worn down topic - but I didn't find many answers in Search only a few questions. The track Feelings (NOT Feelings, Feelings) that was on the Silver Salmon Demo and indeed originally erroneously shared as a Silver Salmon alternate. I don't see it on Queenpedia or Queen Vault. Is this considered NOT it's own track? Or is it considered a precursor to Feelings, Feelings? This track Just trying to fill in some information gaps in my own head ;) Thanks |
| The Real Wizard 07.08.2012 09:15 |
It's very likely from the same 1977 session as Feelings Feelings. It's just a jam, and someone gave it a name. What throws people's knickers into a twist is when someone says Silver Salmon is also from that 1977 session. |
| soxtalon 07.08.2012 09:18 |
LOL - I know all about that debate :D Thanks Bob - I was mostly curious since I didn't see it listed any of the usual places... |
| GinjaNinja 07.08.2012 12:35 |
If you listen carefully to the final guitar note, it can also be heard at the start of the Silver Salmon demo. I don't know whether "Feelings, Feelings" is from the same session, but I assume that "Feelings" and "Silver Salmon" are. |
| The Real Wizard 07.08.2012 18:56 |
But there's also a tape stretch after that note, which has led some people to think it may be from a different session. That may have some credence, if there weren't a half dozen other things on the recording that point it to 1977. |
| Sebastian 07.08.2012 23:30 |
I think a lot of people doubt Feelings + Silver Salmon being from 1977 because that's an old song and it's an absolute categorical one-hundred-percent physical impossibility for a band to play an old song in a studio. It's a dead cert the universe would have imploded if they dared playing something they hadn't just written ten minutes prior. |
| soxtalon 08.08.2012 07:06 |
LOL. Especially something they actually weren't going to use for an album or anything. They would never jam on an old song just because. EVERYTHING has a reason! :P |
| MERQRY 08.08.2012 23:33 |
Sebastian wrote: I think a lot of people doubt Feelings + Silver Salmon being from 1977 because that's an old song and it's an absolute categorical one-hundred-percent physical impossibility for a band to play an old song in a studio. It's a dead cert the universe would have imploded if they dared playing something they hadn't just written ten minutes prior.Maybe i'm crazy but i heard a bit of Fat Bottomed Girl in a part of Silver Salmon... anyway SS seems to be a song written by Tim Staffel and is highly probable that it wasn't a 1977 (recorded) song... |
| Gregsynth 08.08.2012 23:49 |
Freddie's voice gives away the year/era of that Silver Salmon recording: 1977. There's none of the "feminine" tone he had from the early albums, and you hear the slight "growl" tone that he had on songs such as "It's Late" and "Spread Your Wings." |
| Supersonic_Man89 09.08.2012 04:01 |
No, i feel quite the opposite. The Silver Salmon Freddie sounds much more like a younger Freddie. |
| Holly2003 09.08.2012 04:42 |
They should have called it Siver Shit or Salmon Shit because, let's face it, whenever it was recorded, it is awful and no great surprise it never made it onto a record. Hangman is only slightly better. |
| Jazz 78 09.08.2012 04:47 |
The dead giveaway that SS was recorded in 77 from a drummer's point of view is that Roger was now using timbales and china type cymbals whereas he didn't have them in the very early part of his career. The china types were used from ADATR sessions onward and can clearly be heard on SS. The timbales didn't make their appearance til 77 for the "News" sessions and can be seen on NOTW, JAZZ and Game tours. |
| Sebastian 09.08.2012 07:03 |
Roger using timbales proves absolutely nothing IMO. He didn't use timbales on any of the songs that got released from Queen to Races, yet that doesn't mean he didn't have any or didn't have access to any (BTW, he did play them on Misfire). Fred's voice, on the other hand, strongly suggests 1977. Unless, of course, that 1972 Freddie could do a 1977 Freddie impression. Tim wrote the song, so what? Does it mean the universe would implode if they played one of his tracks in 1977? Oh yes, of course: nineteen-seventy-seven is Farsi for 'the year in which nobody can play a song written by Tim Staffell.' |
| joesilvey 09.08.2012 08:38 |
not to completely drudge into this SS recording year debate again... But, i thought it was also contended that the SS recording that's floating about ran a bit fast (which could answer the "younger sounding" Freddie vocal issues)... as you were... |
| The Real Wizard 09.08.2012 11:55 |
Sebastian wrote: Roger using timbales proves absolutely nothing IMO. He didn't use timbales on any of the songs that got released from Queen to Races, yet that doesn't mean he didn't have any or didn't have access to any.Of course, but with that mentality, historians and paleontologists could never make rational conclusions based on their findings. Virtually everything that happened before the year 1800 CE can't be proven to have happened, so let's all be skeptical in light of the fact that there is no video evidence. And that it wasn't digitally altered. For example: "The temple might've been destroyed by the Romans in 72 CE, not in 70 as recorded. There is no writing to suggest it wasn't 72, so it is still possible." If that's how historians should make their decisions, then we should just burn all the history books and start from scratch. (BTW, he did play them on Misfire)True, but it was a single fill. They very likely weren't a part of his kit, the same way the harp wasn't Brian May's first choice for every song on A Night At The Opera. On News Of The World, timbales were prominently heard in many songs, so one can conclude that they were part of the kit - the exact same kit heard on Silver Salmon. Even based on this observation, naturally one cannot 100% conclude that Silver Salmon must have been recorded in 1977, but they can be 99.999% sure. That's a hell of a lot better than "he might've used them earlier" even though there is no evidence to suggest that. |
| Sebastian 09.08.2012 14:40 |
100% and 0% aren't the only options, yes.... but the presence of absence of timbales on a kit isn't even close to 99% either. BTW, responsible historians and scientists DO care about terminology. Instead of saying 'the giganotosaurus was the largest carnivore dinosaur ever', they say things like 'the giganotosaurus was the largest carnivore dinosaur THAT WE KNOW OF.' It's not making a conclusive decision based on limited knowledge, but it's not burning all the books and starting from scratch. There are, IIRC, 56 tracks officially released by Queen between 1973 and 1976 (not counting B-Sides and the like). Out of those 56, there are 55 on which Brian does NOT play harp, yet there is one where he does. By that same logic, there *could* be 'x' amount of pre-77 songs where Roger did not play timbales, and one where he did. I firmly believe SS is from 1977, but I firmly disagree with timbales being concrete evidence of that, just as I firmly disagree with the way you whine and bring the 'historians should start from scratch then' nonsense. |
| The Real Wizard 09.08.2012 15:39 |
I'd prefer the term "discussion" to "whine" ... but to each their own ! |
| Sebastian 09.08.2012 19:20 |
With that mentality, languages wouldn't exist, dictionaries would be burnt and grammar books would be erased and we'd have to start from scratch. |
| The Real Wizard 09.08.2012 19:39 |
Ha, touche. Ooga booga. Me on forum. |
| Wiley 09.08.2012 20:38 |
Just curious, Seb, why do you "firmly believe" Silver Salmon is from 1977? Based on what? You already said the timbales are not concrete proof but I'm sure this belief of yours is at least partially based on the presence of this instrument, making it more likely for the song to be from an era in which Roger widely used it. I like this 'methodological' (is that a word?) approach of yours but, the way I see it, you'll never say something like this is 100% certain unless you get a recorded interview of Freddie in '77 saying "We just got off the studio and played an old Tim song called Silver Salmon. By the way, I love Roger's new timbales! (which he most definately used in this 1977 recording we just did 10 minutes ago)". :) |
| Sebastian 10.08.2012 06:50 |
I'm not 100% sure of that, and most likely never will. I think, for this case, this is in the 70%-80% range. Reasons to believe that: * Its drum sound (i.e. hi-hats, snare, kick, etc., not just the timbales) is the same as Feelings. * Its bass sound is the same as Feelings. * Its guitar sound is the same as Feelings. * Its vocal sound is the same as Feelings. * Its room sound is the same as Feelings. * Feelings is officially dated 1977. Absolutely none of those would count as concrete evidence. To be fair, nothing would - even on your example of a Freddie interview, he was human and could make mistakes or forget things (e.g. as early as 1976, he briefly forgot which album was Love of My Life on), so even that wouldn't be a 100% error-proof evidence. Timbales alone don't prove anything IMO, for the reasons already explained. Timbales + several other things, don't prove it either, but they're close enough in my book. If (when?) something more reliable shows up (e.g. dated tape boxes) I'll be more than happy to confirm my theory (if right) or stand corrected (if wrong) but, for the moment, I think the most logical conclusion (NOT because of the timbales) is 1977. |
| Holly2003 10.08.2012 07:00 |
And all of this supposition is based on a poor quality sound file of Silver Salmon I suppose? |
| Sebastian 10.08.2012 08:05 |
Yes. |
| The Real Wizard 10.08.2012 10:58 |
Holly2003 wrote: And all of this supposition is based on a poor quality sound file of Silver Salmon I suppose?It's not that bad, but of course these things are subjective. It's audible enough that everything is clearly heard. |
| dysan 14.08.2012 03:49 |
My favorite Queen debate is back! |