| rocknrolllover 30.12.2011 14:18 |
I've heard that Freddie remade the song "Lover" in "Liar." Does anybody knows could trust this information? |
| Sebastian 30.12.2011 14:23 |
Liar included ONE riff from Lover. That's it. The remaining 99.99% could've well been completely different. |
| scallyuk 31.12.2011 03:23 |
Seb you are very defnite about that. I take it you've heard Lover . Otherwise you're guessing again or relying on second hand info. Either provide a source or stop such definitive assertions. Speculation misrepresented as fact is the curse of the internet. |
| Sebastian 31.12.2011 05:39 |
Read what I wrote: 'Liar included ONE riff from Lover. That's it. The remaining 99.99% could've well been completely different.' Key phrase COULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. I'm NOT saying it CATEGORICALLY IS, I'm saying it COULD HAVE BEEN. Granted, without hearing the song I cannot guarantee that only one riff is similar and the remaining 99.99% of the song is different. Likewise, without hearing the song you (or anybody else) cannot guarantee that Liar is more similar to Lover than it is to Nevermore, Body Language or Delilah. So, it would be speculation on my part (or anybody else's) to state they're completely different songs. It would also be speculation on my part (or anybody else's) to state they're the same song (or even similar). If a recording of this exists and surfaces at some point, an actual comparison could be made. Otherwise, all we have is second hand information, which has ONLY addressed that: * One of the riffs was re-used (Brian said so on 'As It Began' and so did a former Freddie bandmate on 'Queen in Cornwall', IIRC). * One of the lines is similar ('lover you'll never believe me' vs 'liar you'll never believe me', IIRC). Absolutely NOTHING has been said to confirm or deny whether the 99.99% of the songs are alike or not. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. |
| N0_Camping4U 31.12.2011 12:54 |
Caps lock gets your point across better. |
| MadTheSwine73 31.12.2011 14:10 |
Yes. YES IT DOES. |
| mooghead 31.12.2011 15:43 |
Everything seb says is opinion. He has just realised that Radio Ga Ga has a bass guitar... |
| Sebastian 31.12.2011 22:56 |
Not everything is opinion. Whether The Game is better or worse than The Miracle is a matter of opinion. Whether The Game was originally released before or after The Miracle was released first is not a matter of opinion. Every single version of my website (the first was issued on 8th January 2003) mentions the bass on Ga Ga (there's synth bass and there's also human bass) so no, I didn't *just* realise that. It's obvious that a lot of things cannot be 100% proved, but 100% and 0% aren't the only two options. Not being able to prove EVERYTHING is not the same as not being able to prove ANYTHING. It's New Year now. If my mobile rings and I hear a male adult voice which sounds exactly like my father, would it be a far-fetched speculation to think it's my father? No. I could assume it's him, and I've got a 99.99% chance that it's him, as I know how his voice sounds like. At the very least, I've got 99.99% chance that the person who's ringing is male and is between the ages of 55 and 65. There's a moderate chance that it's not my father, but a person who happens to have a similar voice. There's less chance (but still existing) that's it's a person far younger or older than my father, and that he just happens to have the voice of a 55-65 year-old. There's far less chance (possible but unlikely) that it's a teenager whose voice (due to a very rare genetic condition, for instance) sounds like that of a man between 55-65. There's faaaaaar less chance that it's a girl speaking via voice-modifier or who has an even rarer mutation that has her talking like a man around his sixth decade of life. That's what I mean: all of the 'guesses' above are less than 100% guaranteed to be correct, but each one of the 'guesses' above has a different margin of error. To think that John played the bass of You're My Best Friend would be very reasonable, even though we have no proof such as footage of him recording it (and even that could be dismissed as circumstantial or could be suspected to be fake or staged). If we consider, however, the credits, the playing style, the fact he was the bassist, the fact he wrote the song, the fact none of the other band members has that skill on bass, etc., it's reasonable to think he played the bass. There's still a chance that he didn't, but that would enter into a contrived far-fetched conspiracy (e.g. that they hired a ghost bassist). To think that John was wearing a yellow t-shirt while recording the bass of YMBF is a different kind of 'guess'. It may easily be right (by sheer luck), and it may easily be wrong. He may have been wearing a shirt in any combination of shades, or maybe he was wearing no shirt... that, we can't know, and probably even he wouldn't remember (he's recorded over a hundred bass lines in his life, it's understandable if he doesn't remember how he was dressed for all of them). Both cases would be 'guesses', with one of them having a 99.99% of being correct, and the other having a 5% chance (more or less) of being correct. So no, not the same thing. By the way, of course all caps help emphasis. That's one of their main functions. Happy New Year. |
| liam 01.01.2012 00:50 |
Wow that was a strange rant, you sound like a school teacher talking to 7 year old. |
| ParisNair 01.01.2012 05:10 |
That's classic Sebastian for you. |
| Sebastian 01.01.2012 07:06 |
Perhaps the problem is that some people (and that obviously includes me) didn't receive the best education during their childhood or adolescence. I don't mean going to prestigious boarding schools or learning tricky mathematical formulae, useful as either may be for the professional and personal development of an individual. In an age of exploration, adults often forget to teach the young population about the importance of clearly differing between the different shades of grey they may find in their lives. Sometimes the grey is dark enough to pass for black (even if it's not 100% black), and sometimes it's light enough to pass for white (even if it's not 100% white). Going back to our topic, we don't have (and probably never will have) access to: * A tape of 'Lover' being played. * Music sheets (or at least chords) written for it. Either item may have never existed to begin with, so all this discussion is purely based on second hand information. What such second hand information has outlined (and please feel free to add more evidence, as long as it's sourced from a direct witness and not just from internet rumours) is that: * 'Lover' and 'Liar' share one riff. * 'Lover' and 'Liar' share one line in the lyrics. So far, that information is not enough to think that, as the thread title states, '"Lover" became "Liar".' It simply doesn't: 'Was It All Worth It' shares one riff with 'Death on Two Legs' (the tritone leap at the end of the first orchestral break vs. the piano/guitar/bass ostinato that follows the intro arpeggios), yet it would be absolute nonsense to say that '"Death on Two Legs" became "Was It All Worth It".'Lily of the Valley', likewise, has the harmonised line 'let me go' which precedes a single-tracked lead vocal utterance which begins with 'M'. Should we, then, think that '"Lily of the Valley" became "Bohemian Rhapsody"?' Conclusion: we don't and can't know whether those two songs are any more similar than sharing one line and one riff. The remaining 99.99% of each piece could well be entirely different. |
| Sebastian 01.01.2012 08:18 |
Sorry for the grammar mistake: 'it simply doesn't' should be 'it simply isn't.' |
| mooghead 01.01.2012 08:54 |
The songs are 50% alike. My evidence comes from my talking toothbrush, he heard it from his toothbrush friend. |
| thomasquinn 32989 01.01.2012 12:50 |
So, to summarize, Sebastian is right, and the chances of a girl calling him on the phone on New Year's Eve are 0% ;-P Happy new year! |
| Bigfish 01.01.2012 13:09 |
Sheldon Cooper is here... |
| Sebastian 01.01.2012 16:19 |
Toothbrushes don't talk, knowing that Lover and Liar can be different is entirely unrelated to the decision of a girl to ring me on New Year's Eve or not, and I would sacrifice an arm and a leg to have 1% of Sheldon Cooper's knowledge (which would be enough to create an artificial arm and leg to replace the missing ones). |
| Sebastian 01.01.2012 16:25 |
Moreover, linking a music-related writing to a person's social or romantic life and portraying them in a negative light is consistent with a person whose own life is so pathetic and empty that they have to go to QZ to insult others. |
| tomchristie22 02.01.2012 16:00 |
Well this certainly escalated. |
| Bigfish 02.01.2012 17:23 |
Told ya.. |
| 1sharppencil 03.01.2012 13:05 |
"You never had it so good. The yoghurt pushers are here. There's a place I have been and a face I have seen today. I have said all my prayers, never answered, never cared at all. But there's a sudden chance in me. I'm another person inside of me. Tomorrow I am going to see the last of the blue skies above me. Lover calling, I hear your voice, solar systems that surround you all your life, they remind me that you're really from another source of light. Lover, take me to your leader, I give you body and soul. Come to understand, I grow my life in the palm of your hand". [Lyrics from "Lover", appearing in the "Oxford Mail" as part of a feauture on "Sour Milk Sea", from "Queen - The Early Years, by Mark Hodkinson, p. 113] |
| GinjaNinja 04.01.2012 04:52 |
I can see a couple of lines from "Green" in there... |
| Bigfish 04.01.2012 13:07 |
1sharppencil wrote: "You never had it so good. The yoghurtpushers are here. There's a place I have been and a face I have seen today. I have said all my prayers, never answered, never cared at all. But there's a sudden chance in me. I'm another person inside of me. Tomorrow I am going to see the last of the blue skies above me. Lover calling, I hear your voice, solar systems that surround you all your life, they remind me that you're really from another source of light. Lover, take me to your leader, I give you body and soul. Come to understand, I grow my life in the palm of your hand". [Lyrics from "Lover", appearing in the "Oxford Mail" as part of a feauture on "Sour Milk Sea", from "Queen - The Early Years, by Mark Hodkinson, p. 113] Possibly the most genuinely informative post I have seen on this sight. Thanks and as an Oxford native I'm ashamed that I hadn't seen the article before. |
| inu-liger 04.01.2012 15:06 |
Sebastian, not to pick on you, but although you correctly listed Radio Ga Ga as having a combo of live and synth bass, you on the other hand insisted for a good period of time that I Want It All had a programmed drum track in the middle fast section, which the leaked Rock Band multitracks (particularly on the overhead condenser cymbal/kit mic tracks) -completely- debunked! To be fair, a lot of Queen tracks at that time had the toms, kick and snare connected to a drum sample trigger (to get that in-vogue 80's drum sound whilst still being played live!), so I can see where that might have played significant tricks on your mind. |
| Dane 04.01.2012 15:40 |
tl;dr Why is this thread so full of disclaimers?!?! Adds nothing to the topic. |
| John S Stuart 04.01.2012 21:17 |
Ofcourse; there was always the blatant lift from Rod Argent's "Liar" which made it into the Queen version. Therefore by default, I guess (imo) that Argent's bit was not on the "Lover" track. So the story is a bit murkier than one or the other! |
| 1sharppencil 05.01.2012 05:24 |
@jss, concerning "Liar" on the Argent lp I'd never put two and two together...omg! |
| dysan 05.01.2012 06:23 |
Excellent thread. |
| The Real Wizard 05.01.2012 23:08 |
When Queen did their first demo in 1971, one of the guys working the gig thought Liar was a cover, as he had heard the Argent version. |
| 1sharppencil 06.01.2012 05:13 |
a couple of points... i)I simply can't grasp the fact that the rest of the band agreed to the credit going to Freddie purely for writing the lyrics to "Liar"...coz I think that the song "stinks" of Brian's and Rog's contribution ii) another amazing factor to be taken into account is the leaps Freddie made concerning both singing and on songwriting...I mean from "Vagabond" & "Green" to "Jesus" & "My Fairy King", it's quite the distance... |
| 4 x Vision 12.01.2012 15:55 |
1sharppencil wrote: a couple of points... i)I simply can't grasp the fact that the rest of the band agreed to the credit going to Freddie purely for writing the lyrics to "Liar"...coz I think that the song "stinks" of Brian's and Rog's contribution ii) another amazing factor to be taken into account is the leaps Freddie made concerning both singing and on songwriting...I mean from "Vagabond" & "Green" to "Jesus" & "My Fairy King", it's quite the distance...Yep, he really was very proffessional in the way he improved his vocals over a short period of time, as mentioned by Brian in DOOL doc. Very early Freddie did sound like a "sheep". Although he never took singing lessons, he must have used the techniques which no doubt a singing tutor would have expected him to use to help get the most out of his voice (imo) |
| The Real Wizard 12.01.2012 22:08 |
1sharppencil wrote:ii) another amazing factor to be taken into account is the leaps Freddie made concerning both singing and on songwriting...I mean from "Vagabond" & "Green" to "Jesus" & "My Fairy King", it's quite the distance...Indeed. In 1969, Mercury was playing in a cover band while Brian and Roger already had much of the Queen sound established, as evidenced by the Smile recordings. That said, Mercury did blossom rather quickly. Never quite thought of it that way until now. It's no coincidence that the best tracks on all the early Queen records are his - My Fairy King, Black Queen, Killer Queen, BoRhap, Somebody To Love. But the influence May and Taylor had on him must have been quite substantial. And Deacon soon became a great writer himself. I don't think they get nearly enough credit for their contributions. It really was a team effort. |
| Negative Creep 13.01.2012 06:59 |
The Real Wizard wrote: When Queen did their first demo in 1971, one of the guys working the gig thought Liar was a cover, as he had heard the Argent version.Really? Aside from the word Liar - what's the similarty between the tracks? I've just listened to it on YouTube and there's literally nothing at all in common between the 2 songs, except the word..... Liar. Even the way the word is sang in each song is completly different to each other. Totally different rhythm, melody and lyrics. You've lost me. |
| The Real Wizard 13.01.2012 13:20 |
Negative Creep wrote:Oh, I completely agree. I'm just quoting the guy. Either he didn't know the Argent track well, or his memory isn't up to par. It was the 70s, after all..The Real Wizard wrote: When Queen did their first demo in 1971, one of the guys working the gig thought Liar was a cover, as he had heard the Argent version.Really? Aside from the word Liar - what's the similarty between the tracks? I've just listened to it on YouTube and there's literally nothing at all in common between the 2 songs, except the word..... Liar. Even the way the word is sang in each song is completly different to each other. Totally different rhythm, melody and lyrics. You've lost me. |