| Togg 23.09.2011 06:54 |
I know I probably stand alone on his in here but I just dont get it? All this Brain and Roger are messing with the legacy...raping my childhood etc just kills me, I just dont understand it. All through my life I have loved all kinds of great music, i have played in a band for 30 years, gone to dozens of concerts and bought thousands of CD's Albums, Tapes and iTunes downloads. much of this I owe to finding a passion for Queen at an early stage in life. I was until then very single minded and blinkered when it came to music, I liked what i liked and that was it, nobody could tell me otherwise, everything else for of no interest or crap. My closest friend kept pestering me about Queen whom I just didn't really get, he loved Queen 2 and kept playing it over and over...one day i finally decided if he liked it I should at least give it a try..so recluctantly i sat down and gave it a proper listen...slowly and surely I found I was intreagued by what i was hearing, by the time Killer Queen came out I had a reasonable interest in them altjough I tended to hide it, when Bo Rap happened i couldn't hide it anymore I simply loved it, from that moment on my life changed, Queen pushed every boundary, they went from strength to strength, playing Punk, Rock, Disco and Ballards I loved it all, they are ultimatley responsible for me joining a band and learning to play a number of instruments, they introduced me to Ballet, Folk, as well as different artists responsible for either cover art or paintings that inspired songs. When the dressed up for I Want To Break Free most of America felt let down and turned off, I loved it, they were doing just what wanted they were challenging the system and pre-concieved notions of 'rock' Here we are years later and they still do this for me, they continue to tinker with the product and try different ways to challenge me, but what I do know is that I owe them a huge debt of gratitude for all the years of musical and artistic pleasure. At no point have I ever felt they were about to change this by putting out a single with Robbie Williams or Pink, or openning a musical... it just continued a long line of trying new things. Never believe it's all real.... life changes and you have to cahnge with it or you die, same is true of a business, stay the same and without question you will sooner or later faulter and die, we see it time and time again, if you dont keep one eye over your shoulder someone will come along and kill you. See what Apple has done to a number of businesses as an example, Nokia the once dominant player simply got swept aside and may or maynot survive in the long term simply because they didnt watch the market and adapt quick enough. The day Queen in whatever form stops doing this will be a sad day for me, it will signify they are no longer interested in surviving and more improtantly 'creating'. Were Freddie still here one thing i can say for certain is he would also be pushing out lots of product that would push people hard to feel something...like it or loth it he would be pushing the boundaries either in music, art or film, stage or screen. I have a whole lifetime of Queen material to look back on and listen to, why would anything they produce now change that? they gave me the ability to see new things and experience new ideas, very few bands have done this, most just push out the same stuff until they explode. So the next time you see someone saying they are fucking up the legacy think for a minute, is that even possible? is it in any way going to change what has gone before. All through their career that have done exactly that and if you dont see that you simply dont understand them at all. Queen 2 pushed the boundaries as to what was possible in a studio Bo Rap changed the world, both music and video WATC made people think they were pompus FBG made people think they hated women and were sexist ABTD made rock fans think they had lost the plot As did Hot Space IWTBF shocked America The list goes on and on, everything they do challenges us to look differently. Surely if you like Queen you like to be challenged and you like the fact they dont do the same thing twice (apart from ADATR!!) They are not meesing with the legacy they are continuing it... |
| LapOfTheGods1986 23.09.2011 08:11 |
You know Togg...that kind of reminds me of something said in the 'Days of Our Lives' documentary...I think towards the end, Jim Beach did talk of how Freddie in his last days had said: "You can do anything with my music, but never make me boring". That to me seemed like an indicator that he wanted Queen's legacy to move on, and that he wanted the band to never stop making music until they felt they couldn't anymore. Something that, IMO, Roger and Brian have tried to do in their own ways - even though those ways seem a little weird. But Hot Space was weird for its times too, and so was the Coronation Street dragfest in IWTBF, so was dabbling in funk and dance music ahead of its time and before MJ made it cool to do so, and so for that matter was Bohemian Rhapsody!! It's just that some of their experiements actually worked, and some didn't. As far as I can see, Brian and Roger are working hard on keeping the legacy alive, and I really hope they'll continue to do so. But look at it this way...for every fan that they lose from the past (and looking at the fact that while so many among us do disagree with some of what Brian and Roger are doing, they still stick around and adore Queen as much as they used to - I think those numbers aren't very high. You can still be a true fan even when you don't like what Brian and Roger are doing IMO...) there will always be fans they gain from the present. With Hot Space and their 80s albums they lost some of their 70s audience but there were people who loved their music too...with QPR MOST fans around here supported the cause and shooed away those who said Queen R.I,P 1991, and among those who panned TCR were those who just didn't like the songs and felt that Brian and Roger could do better. Another thing also is I guess that searching for a tribute band is something that has been done before really...which IMO is where the REAL disappointment lies. I mean, compared to Bo Rhap, does Queen Extravaganza look that daring? It looks more like what a lot of people and a lot of bands would end up doing, but there again...their use of synthesizers was kinda go-with-the-flow too. It doesn't sound all that unpredictable and I think people feel there are other ways Roger could use to continue the legacy besides a talent show. I just hope for our sakes and theirs that it doesn't come out looking like another bit of American Idol drama :/ |
| ANAGRAMER 23.09.2011 09:22 |
The point is arguable I think Brian and Rodger have made several pronouncements on the Pop-idol/x-factor type shows - not too many of them complimentary - even C-lebrity has a pop It does seem a bit disengenuous to now be embracing the concept to promote themselves Where one stands in relation to this depends on whether you enjoy the type of show this represents. Whether or not it is credible is another point and this is probably what riles older Queen fans who, aknowledging their wilder promotional ideas over the years, have put up with them in hindsight because, at its root, was credible product (in the Freddie years) |
| brENsKi 23.09.2011 11:30 |
just look at some relevant legacy stuff here: in the same week that floyd release the DSOTM immersion 7 cd pack queen are fuckign about with queenfactor |
| Holly2003 23.09.2011 11:32 |
Did I hear right that Nirvana's Nevermind is being re-released with 28 bonus tracks? |
| Sebastian 23.09.2011 11:51 |
I don't see how what they decide to do has any effect on us. Surely, we can disagree with some of their partnership choices (I do - often) but that's the extent of it. Actual rape - that's a crime. Hitting your wife - that's a crime. Abusing your kids, sexually, physically and/or psychologically - that's a crime. Being hypocrite about reality shows and/or choosing to duet with Rebecca Black and/or writing a shitty musical - those are arguably poor career movements, but nothing more. It's not as if our lives will be any worse or better because of what they do. |
| rhyeking 23.09.2011 13:18 |
I feel too many of the critics of Queen's activities since Freddie died take a conveniently black and white view of things, and I think it's part deliberate (to justify their criticisms) and part nostalgic (longing for "the good old days"). The idea of "The Legacy" is one created out of both those views, but does not conform to reality. No one can know the future. As I've said before, however, time has a way of filtering out crap, leaving the material worth remembering. And tastes fluctuate with society in ways no one can predict. Any project Queen fails at now will make little to no impact historically. They left their mark during their classic era. Now, about the selfishness of certain fans, this is what I see: A) If it doesn't cater to the seasoned, long-time fans, they think it's a waste, a cop-out, a sell-out and/or gouging. The problem with this view: It ignores the need of Queen to continue promoting their work. Just because you bought the Hits 20 years ago doesn't mean the work is done. What would you have them do? Only release material you want? Do nothing and stagnate, preserving their work like a museum? B) The Musical, Queen+ projects and "reality" TV appearances cheapen their music. The problem with this view: It fails to address that times and circumstances change. Recording an album, touring to promote it and releasing singles and videos were previously the only way to really make waves with your music against the tide of every other band out there. Okay, maybe you'd do the odd interview on MTV-like shows, but that was it. There was no American Idol or Glee, etc, and few jukebox musicals back in the day. They exist now, though, and draw massive audiences. Queen would be stupid to ignore it. Have they criticized these forms? Yes. Is it Hypocrisy? No. There is such a thing as compromise, where Queen cannot change that these promotional outlets exist, but they are not using them to inform their artistic decisions. They are a business means to a business end. What amuses me is that the critics have no problem with outlets that serve or entertain them (Rock Band, bootlegs, leaked demos, etc.). Basically, it seems to come down to "We like this, it's good" vs "We hate this, now Queen have sold out!" C) We seasoned and knowledgeable fans will hold Queen to a higher standard in regard to how the band treats "The Legacy". The problem: These fans are very vocal about their disdain for the work released during the '80s, an apparent lowering of standards by the classic line up, yet apply "The Legacy" argument against nearly anything the band does after Freddie died, as if the "standard" suddenly dropped in 1991 and not before for them. Which is it, people? You can't have it both ways! |
| Holly2003 23.09.2011 14:56 |
It looks like ou're setting up a series of straw men to blow over. For example, "If it doesn't cater to the seasoned, long-time fans, they think it's a waste, a cop-out, a sell-out and/or gouging." I don't think anyone thinks that in isolation. Rather, it's a series of "wastes, cop-outs, sell-outs and/or gouging" that causes some of us to become disillusioned. And what's wrong with catering to a general audience AND long-term fans? In my view, for quite some time now "Queen" make the least possible effort for highest possible profit. |
| mooghead 23.09.2011 15:07 |
"highest possible profit. " Eureka! That is what this is all about, lets be honest. Its all about money. Roger and Brian would sell their first born sons for a few extra million in the bank. John Deacon is earning just as much by doing nothing, as is the estate of Freddie Mercury. Because they didn't make enough as a working band. They have lost all grip on reality. My respect has turned to pity. |
| Ivo-1976 23.09.2011 15:42 |
What is most disappointing is that Brian and Roger's creative processes have stopped. They stopped writing, they stopped performing, they stopped recording. They are just the two guys from Queen that ONCE were great musicians. Squeezing every last drop of popularity and profit out of their past. A horrible way to end. This year, Queen has its 40th birthday, Freddie would've hit 65 years and it's also 20 years since he's passed away. If there ever was a moment to say goodbye with a Big Bang for Brian and Roger it would've been this year. One series of shows with the guys from the Paul Rodgers shows, and some friends of Queen on vocals, would've been an excellent way for Bri and Rog to bow out in style. They could announce it as the very last (small) tour and goodbye to the fans. Everybody would understand and appreciate it. In stead, they are going to pick other musicians to play their music because they don't care anymore. Very, very "UnQueenish". |
| brENsKi 23.09.2011 16:23 |
Holly2003 wrote: It looks like ou're setting up a series of straw men to blow over. For example, "If it doesn't cater to the seasoned, long-time fans, they think it's a waste, a cop-out, a sell-out and/or gouging." I don't think anyone thinks that in isolation. Rather, it's a series of "wastes, cop-outs, sell-outs and/or gouging" that causes some of us to become disillusioned. And what's wrong with catering to a general audience AND long-term fans? In my view, for quite some time now "Queen" make the least possible effort for highest possible profit. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ applauds: ^^^ apologies for diverting this thread a little, but this point needs making...and it's a pity Brian and Roger don't read our comments (and do something about them) people who think that this is a matter of damned if you do, damned if you don't should consider a bigger point loads of bands have released "deluxe editions" in the last couple of years....rainbow, purple, ac/dc, beatles, lizzy to name a few...but Floyd drummer Nick Mason nailed the sentiment perfectly when talking about the Pink Floyd "DSOTM immersion set" (six cds)..... read on (please) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's the first time extra Pink Floyd material has been made officially available and Mason explains: "We'll be very pleased if people find this stuff interesting rather than yet another attempt by very old people to sell their birth right. "We're protected to some extent by the mere fact you're not going to shell out that kind of money (for the Immersion box) unless you're pretty heavily committed and interested." Gilmour adds: "We're at this point where we're trying hard to be a little less precious about withholding anything and giving people all those bits of music we've kept hidden away for one reason or another. "A lot of this stuff is out on bootlegs but in such rotten quality. If people are listening to it anyway, why not give it to them in the quality of the original recording?" Then in November, we'll see an Immersion version of 1975's Wish You Were Here as well as a new "best of" collection, A Foot In The Door. Finally, in February, a huge seven-disc set celebrates The Wall. Mason explains: "This project was really an EMI proposal. I think they learned an awful lot by doing The Beatles. They did a fantastic job on them. "Initially, we were not entirely convinced it was a route we should go down but Roger and I went to an EMI presentation that was really convincing. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< therein lies the nubb of the question. Brian doesn't want us to have it....it takes too much time and effort to cobble together the queen archive stuff...for far too little return (financially)...it's easier to do crap collaborations, musicals and xfactor shit...cos it makes money for little effort...and before people say "ah well that's ok, it was DSOTM after all, they're doing similar stuff for WYWH and the Wall the fact that rainbow, lizzy, springsteen, bowie, purple, nirvana and even fekkin kiss have done it ....and now floyd (with deal love and care) shows just how precious, insular and downright money grubbing QPL are.....as Mason says it's not about making money, it's about being not so precious about the stuff you have |
| rhyeking 23.09.2011 17:32 |
So, when they were still a working band, recording in the studio and released that work, giving them your money was fine, because you loved the music. We all loved The Cosmos Rocks! Oh wait, now I remember, it got tarred and feathered on these forums. Sure, some fans defended it, but many more whined about "No John or Freddie equals No Queen" and they're money-grubbing sell-outs, using "Queen" to take advantage of us! Don't forget the shit Hot Space, The Works, Magic, The Miracle and Made In Heaven get. When they gave us new material, they get a steaming pile of grief in return, but we have the gall to demand the anthologies and super spectacular Deluxe Editions. What I see in these gripes by fans is the selfishness of a child crying over not having gotten the toy he really wanted, that all his friends have. We want what we want when we want it and anything less is cause to stamp our feet and pout that they don't love us anymore. |
| Holly2003 23.09.2011 18:05 |
rhyeking wrote: So, when they were still a working band, recording in the studio and released that work, giving them your money was fine, because you loved the music. We all loved The Cosmos Rocks! Oh wait, now I remember, it got tarred and feathered on these forums. Sure, some fans defended it, but many more whined about "No John or Freddie equals No Queen" and they're money-grubbing sell-outs, using "Queen" to take advantage of us! Don't forget the shit Hot Space, The Works, Magic, The Miracle and Made In Heaven get. When they gave us new material, they get a steaming pile of grief in return, but we have the gall to demand the anthologies and super spectacular Deluxe Editions. What I see in these gripes by fans is the selfishness of a children crying over not having gotten the toy he really wanted, that all his friends have. We want what we want when we want it and anything less is cause to stamp our feet and pout that they don't love us anymore. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They only person I see stamping feet is you. |
| rhyeking 23.09.2011 18:11 |
Nice try. Next! |
| Holly2003 23.09.2011 18:37 |
Next ... person to make your comments look even sillier? |
| Sheer Brass Neck 23.09.2011 21:26 |
rhyeking! Wow, wow, wow. Where to start. I post infrequently, but scan all the time so I know that if you're not an apologist or enabler, you see little wrong with what Queen and QPL do. So, FWIW, a rebuttal of sorts: "I feel too many of the critics of Queen's activities since Freddie died take a conveniently black and white view of things, and I think it's part deliberate (to justify their criticisms) and part nostalgic (longing for "the good old days")." That's fair. Queen were once a living, breathing band making timeless music. Now, 50% of that band is not involved, and the remaining 50% are salesmen. I guess I see that as black, as I was turned on by their music, not how many records they sold. "The idea of "The Legacy" is one created out of both those views, but does not conform to reality." That's your view of reality and it's narrow minded. If the view is sales and increasing them and interest in the band, you are correct, no harm to the legacy. If your view is that the catalogue is the 2nd greatest in the history of popular music and worthy of reverence and quality control, with a goal of focusing on the song(s) greatness, you are wrong. "Any project Queen fails at now will make little to no impact historically." In your opinion. The Wal-Mart album, Pepsi, the musical, Robbie Williams etc. haven't added one thing to the Queen legacy. Maybe added a few fans? Sure. Maybe made them look like hangers on peddling 30 year old records? Your call. Not a legacy builder. You (or I, or Brian and Roger) don't get to choose the legacy, but early returns on the above projects aren't that they're building on their early successes. That's like saying Freddie dying of AIDS or defying a UN boycott by playing Sun city isn't part or their legacy because Radio Ga GA hit #1 in 19 countries. "Now, about the selfishness of certain fans, this is what I see:A) If it doesn't cater to the seasoned, long-time fans, they think it's a waste, a cop-out, a sell-out and/or gouging. The problem with this view: It ignores the need of Queen to continue promoting their work." Ludicrous. The NEED of Queen to continue promoting their work? What need? Do Brian and Roger NEED help to pay their bills? No. "What would you have them do? Do nothing and stagnate, preserving their work like a museum?" The Queen Extravaganza is basically a live museum. It's not Queen, and has nothing to do with Queen. It's a reality show on the road (which BTW, Roger and Brian, who are turning into the biggest hypocrites in music) apparently despise. Unless of course they can make money at it. "The Musical, Queen+ projects and "reality" TV appearances cheapen their music." Good point. "There is such a thing as compromise, where Queen cannot change that these promotional outlets exist, but they are not using them to inform their artistic decisions." ARTISTIC!!! If you believe this is about art, then I understand where you've lost the plot. Money and art are different beasts. Queen's contemporaries (someone mentioned Pink Floyd's recent release) are working on securing their legacies. Queen is working on licencing Keep Passing the Open Windows to a suicide prevention hotline in Bolivia for 10.0000 pounds. "The problem: These fans are very vocal about their disdain for the work released during the '80s, an apparent lowering of standards by the classic line up, yet apply "The Legacy" argument against nearly anything the band does after Freddie died, as if the "standard" suddenly dropped in 1991 and not before for them. Which is it, people? You can't have it both ways!" Which is it? The 80s output was shit. but it was shit for a band who tried. For me, Queen through Jazz, uneven as it was, was a 7 album run of genius. But it wore on the band, and as a long time fan speaking only for himself, I'm glad they tried dance, pop, and whatever the hell they tried otherwise they'd be AC/DC or KISS, bands who album one and album twenty offered little change. But the issue is that as a fan from the 70s, they were innovators of the first degree, supreme risk takers making timeless music. Now they are a business flogging product that is 40 fucking years old with little effort. The standard dropeed rhyeking, but if you like it, buy it, as you are the target market and I'm a bitter old guy who they know won't buy anyhting until they make an effort :) |
| LapOfTheGods1986 23.09.2011 23:56 |
Well...to be fair, rhyeking, I think some of the blatant criticism IS because at least a section of the fans care and were hoping Brian and Roger hadn't given up creatively yet. Plus, given the swiftness of the way it seemed to end with Freddie's death, fans DO feel a little robbed of so much they could have easily known or gotten from the group. I admit, there have been fans who have bashed them to no end no matter what they do, but there have also been people who have defended them in the fond hope that the next thing they might do would be a good thing that would result in some really good creative work. If one cared about a group wouldn't one also be the most critical of it because you know their potential? My personal beef with QE is that Brian and Roger still have it in them to do much better, and IMHO they proved it with TCR. For some people TCR isn't good because Brian and Roger AREN'T third-rate musicians, they're integral members of the band Queen and are therefore capable of steller work - they proved that with No One But You, which all three of them worked on their own, and with MIH - where they had little else besides Freddie's voice to work with. Most of the time they can actually keep the legacy going through their collective creations - yes, fans will be critical because at least some of them have stuck by the group for so long and would like to see that level of commitment returned. Truth is, these two men ARE brilliant men who were pioneers at their work. They DIDN'T need gimmicks like the collaboration for Pepsi, nor the QE now (though to be fair, why exactly are we bringing Brian into the picture here? He doesn't even seem remotely involved in this, he's said so himself). I wouldn't go as far as to brand them money-makers and accuse them of all this...that's simply not fair. I do agree with rhyeking to the extent that the behavior of many fans themselves has been less than ideal. Of course, if a fan feels they genuinely don't care about Queen at all and are just making it their favourite cashcow that's their call...as far as I am concerned they do care, they do want it to live on, but don't exactly go in all the right directions to do so sometimes. As far as I'm concerned, the tribute I loved, MIH holds a pride of place in my collection, No One But You still leaves me a little choked, the musical was a good way of reviving the interest in Queen and the Queen+ projects were wonderful pieces of work that seriously needed good promotion which they didn't get, and they COULD have chosen better people for collaborations! But QE does NOTHING honestly for them or for Queen, and most of us would much rather see them do some stellar musical work before they call it a day. The last thing we'd want would be for them to go out with a whimper. Me, I'M more interested in Roger's plans for the Olympics and how Brian fits in there! |
| john bodega 24.09.2011 00:00 |
Ridiculous thread title. Some ridiculous posts after it. Blah. |
| philip storey 24.09.2011 05:29 |
I think i am going to have lay down in a darkend room !!!! |
| Bigfish 24.09.2011 09:20 |
Sebastian wrote: I don't see how what they decide to do has any effect on us. Surely, we can disagree with some of their partnership choices (I do - often) but that's the extent of it. Actual rape - that's a crime. Hitting your wife - that's a crime. Abusing your kids, sexually, physically and/or psychologically - that's a crime. Being hypocrite about reality shows and/or choosing to duet with Rebecca Black and/or writing a shitty musical - those are arguably poor career movements, but nothing more. It's not as if our lives will be any worse or better because of what they do. Oh bloody hell - have a day off for gods sake or are you really Sheldon from Big Bang Theory after all.. |
| Oberon 24.09.2011 09:41 |
Ivo-1976 wrote: What is most disappointing is that Brian and Roger's creative processes have stopped. They stopped writing, they stopped performing, they stopped recording. They are just the two guys from Queen that ONCE were great musicians. Squeezing every last drop of popularity and profit out of their past. A horrible way to end. This year, Queen has its 40th birthday, Freddie would've hit 65 years and it's also 20 years since he's passed away. If there ever was a moment to say goodbye with a Big Bang for Brian and Roger it would've been this year. One series of shows with the guys from the Paul Rodgers shows, and some friends of Queen on vocals, would've been an excellent way for Bri and Rog to bow out in style. They could announce it as the very last (small) tour and goodbye to the fans. Everybody would understand and appreciate it. In stead, they are going to pick other musicians to play their music because they don't care anymore. Very, very "UnQueenish". I have to agree in a way, although Brian has of course done work with Kelly Ellis (like it or not - I went to both RAH shows and they were very good shows). I was quite surprised that they didn't arrange something big given the significance of the year. When the exhibition in London was announced, I thought that they would do a show of some kind - a second tribute of sorts. I think they could easily do a run at the O2 if they got a good set of "names" to do a turn. I think they could do that each year and make some decent money, and they'd be doing what they (should) love best. They could even write some new material and release in whatever modern way they want (i.e. just electronic), and play it live at those shows. I'd be interested to know what the deal with Universal was. Must have been purely back catalog + re-packaging. Shows how lucrative that catalog must be! Doesn't seem to include anything new does it? As far as the extravaganza goes, it's a strange concept, but it does seem to be all Roger. Brian's comments on his web site are quite telling. He's not involved and I'd be surprised if we saw him at any of these shows. It must be all about money really, i don't have any doubt about it. The question I have, is was it Roger's idea or Jim Beach's idea and Roger ran with it? |