| Snackpot 08.09.2011 20:39 |
We've all seen these interviews with various members of the band saying how they were never afraid to do their own thing and not conform but after the HS album, up until Innuendo, were the subsequent three studio albums a sign of a band desperate to conform to the (then) current trends? Did criticism of Hot Space sting them? Certainly I'd struggle to find anything particularly 'out there' or unusual or original about any track in either The Works, AKOM or The Miracle. All seem VERY mainstream (by and large) and very aware of themselves being mainstream too, as if that was the target audience. Was possibly this why (amongst other things) Queen suffered a decline in US popularity because it was no longer producing music that nobody else made but instead just started making music along the same lines as everyone else was making at the time. |
| Sebastian 08.09.2011 23:46 |
If so, Hot Space hasn't got anything that's particularly 'unusual' for the era: Drum Machines: Already invented, already used by many artists. Synth Bass: Ditto. Horn Section: Ditto. Sax: Ditto. Simmons Pads: Ditto. Arpeggiator: Ditto. |
| rhyeking 09.09.2011 00:03 |
Snackpot wrote: We've all seen these interviews with various members of the band saying how they were never afraid to do their own thing and not conform but after the HS album, up until Innuendo, were the subsequent three studio albums a sign of a band desperate to conform to the (then) current trends? Did criticism of Hot Space sting them? Certainly I'd struggle to find anything particularly 'out there' or unusual or original about any track in either The Works, AKOM or The Miracle. All seem VERY mainstream (by and large) and very aware of themselves being mainstream too, as if that was the target audience. Was possibly this why (amongst other things) Queen suffered a decline in US popularity because it was no longer producing music that nobody else made but instead just started making music along the same lines as everyone else was making at the time. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hot Space was a natural progression of the influence of funk on their music dating back to News Of The World ("Fight From The Inside," "Get Down, Make Love," "I Wanna Testify" and "Turn On The TV." It doesn't matter what they say after the fact, they all decided to go in the direction together. Other influences included their collaborations with Billy Squire, David Bowie and Michael Jackson. Hot Space, like all their albums, was a product of their environment and their musical interests. After Hot Space, they took a break and worked on solo projects, then came back and decided to try a back to basics rock album, which thematically evolved into something very much of its time, focusing on the juxtapositions of humanity and machines, and between self and the world. Its influences were what were firing their creativity at the time, the very technology they were commenting on, along with the cross-pollination of their solo albums. The Works is really the sister album to Roger's Strange Frontier, Freddie's "Love Kills" and Mr. Bad Guy, and Brian's Star Fleet Project. A Kind Of Magic was influenced by Live Aid, Highlander and, again, their own lives. By now you can be forgiven for wondering, "where are the crazy experiments and such?" Well, they weren't interested in that at the moment. Contrary to popular belief, Queen weren't as "out there" as might be thought. They always wore their influences on their sleeve. The influences changed naturally over the course of their career and they were talented enough to hit on occasional combinations of ideas that raised the bar. "Bohemian Rhapsody" didn't appear fully formed in Freddie's mind, it evolved from album one, with "My Fairy King" and "Liar", through "The March Of The Black Queen" and "In The Lap Of The Gods," and was followed by "Somebody To Love." After that, monster epics ran their course for Freddie until Barcelona, so you can't fairly lament the absence of such works ten years after the last example if he himself hadn't been going in that direction for a very long time. The Miracle was an attempt to strip back to the four of them and simplify things. By all accounts it was a very productive time, with 15 released tracks, 2 unreleased songs and a few unfinished bits and pieces that we know of. It's an album accused of being too light and synthetic, as if those are bad things. The band clearly was having fun and not feeling pressure to repeat themselves sonically. Their tastes and musical interests diversified the output between rock, pop, funk and blues. They didn't tour the US based on badly followed advice, poor support from Capitol Records and the fickle MTV one-hit wonder mentality they railed against. If they'd toured the US, they would have maintained a presence there, more than likely, and that might have changed their image in the public mind at the time. Innuendo began as a continuation of The Miracle in their approach, but likely the emotional weight of what was occurring in their lives (Freddie's illness and Brian's divorce) lent the album more weight than it might otherwise have had. It wasn't that they said, "Let's remake 'Opera,'" it's that the turmoil carried through to their art. Again, outside influences effected their work. The public was also ready for a return to epic rock, perhaps in response to grunge and alternative (not everyone liked Nirvana and Pearl Jam). A few years later, Meat Loaf returned and had a massive #1 hit with Bat 2 and "Anything For Love". I hope this helps put things in perspectives as to what was going around each album. The biggest thing is that understanding the context informs the understanding of how they created the albums, rather than applying a value judgement on the process which is an easy trap to get into. |
| AlbaNo1 10.09.2011 14:04 |
I agree with the OP in basic terms. Hot Space was a risk for Queen, they knew their fanbase was mainly hard rock fans, and they were perceived as a rock band with a few quirks and a pop dimension. The markers they set down for Hot Space were too far out for most fans and also did not compare in quality to the real disco/dance acts. Aside from the "disco" numbers the songs are an odd balance, for example Life is Real always stood out to me as being unusually deep lyrically. After Hot Space they knew they could never stray outside the parameters of their mainstream identity again. |
| Snackpot 10.09.2011 14:26 |
Although Hot Space represented somewhat of a natural progression for Queen given how they had tampered with, and with a good degree of success, the funk/disco style previously, and not withstanding the fact it was very much 'current' at the time (if not slightly before that) - it certainly was not something that would have been 'expected' of rock group at that time. That's what I'm getting at. I think it's telling too how, after that album (and possibly even during, although Body Language was a fairly big hit by later standards), Freddie's own song writing contribution when it came to the commercially successful songs, diminished considerably. After Hot Space the 'hits' were written by John, Roger and Brian. Radio Ga Ga, I Want to Break Free, Hammer to Fall, A Kind of Magic., I Want it All, Innuendo, These are the Days of Our Lives. One Vision, although a collaboration I guess could be credited to Roger more than anyone else. The Miracle wasn't really that big of a splash at all, certainly in the UK charts. I think perhaps Hot Space was Freddie's 'indulgence', if you will, and after that didn't work, perhaps the power balance shifted and Brian and Roger took the relative failure of the album to make sure that from that point on Queen stayed 'on course', in their view, which meant three albums that really were very mainstream. Certainly in contrast to what was even by Queen's standards, an album which was quite a departure from the norm. |
| Sebastian 10.09.2011 14:48 |
>>> Radio Ga Ga That one was a hit after Freddie re-arranged it. >>> I Want to Break Free Ditto. >>> Hammer to Fall Not a big hit. It's a Hard Life sold three times more than that one. >>> A Kind of Magic. A hit after Freddie re-arranged it. >>> I Want it All That one does count. >>> Innuendo That one's chiefly Freddie's. >>> These are the Days of Our Lives That one was a hit as a double-A, Should we consider Flick of the Wrist to be a bigger hit than Somebody to Love and Under Pressure? >>> One Vision Not a particularly big hit either. Both Play the Game and It's a Hard Life outsold it. >>> although a collaboration I guess could be credited to Roger more than anyone else. Not quite ... lyrics are Roger/Freddie, music is chiefly Brian's. Roughly speaking, the credit is 25% Roger, 25% Freddie, 50% Brian. >>> The Miracle wasn't really that big of a splash at all, certainly in the UK charts. No, it wasn't. But other songs that Freddie wrote, or on which he was the main writer, did do well: Innuendo, It's a Hard Life ... in fact, A Winter's Tale outsold the likes of Seven Seas of Rhye and Who Wants to Live Forever. Granted, Freddie's dominance wasn't as prominent as before in terms of hits (10 out of the 17 GH from 1974 to 1980 are his), but he still wrote some big sellers until the very end. >>> I think perhaps Hot Space was Freddie's 'indulgence', if you will, and after that didn't work, perhaps the power balance shifted and Brian and Roger took the relative failure of the album to make sure that from that point on Queen stayed 'on course' Not quite. After HS, Freddie remained their chief composer until the very end, with the only exception of AKOM. |
| Snackpot 10.09.2011 14:57 |
How did he remain 'chief' composer when he didn't actually write that many hits after Hot Space? He would, of course, had been involved in the (re)arrangement in some tracks but I'm sure we could go back and look at all the 'hits' the band have had and give equal credit to someone else in the band for assisting/taking control of the song arrangement as well as the principle writer of the song. It's clear that after Hot Space, the others in the band began to contribute a lot more and arguably, if we're going strictly by writing credits, actually produced far more successful work than Freddie did. In albums that sounded far more, what I'd imagine, Brian and Roger would have been more positive towards than the rather experimental 'Hot Space' that, as we know, both men (Roger in particular) had strong reservations about. I don't think it can be dismissed that after HS when the band very much stuck to the mainstream for the next three albums, that Roger and Brian (although Brian always had been a strong writer) then wrote the lions share of the more successful songs. I don't think that can be dismissed as coincidence. I think the direction the band took after HS, was much more in tune to where Brian and Roger were at the time, therefore they were in a position to deliver the more commercially successful songs. Regardless of who rearranged them |
| Sebastian 10.09.2011 15:35 |
>>> How did he remain 'chief' composer when he didn't actually write that many hits after Hot Space? If we only count the singles that sold at least half a million copies, then these are the post-HS hits: Ga Ga - Roger Break Free - John Hard Life - Freddie Vision - Queen (minus John), mostly Brian Magic - Roger I Want It All - Brian Innuendo - Queen (minus John), mostly Freddie Show Must Go On - Queen, with Freddie having slightly less input than the others. Days of Our Lives - Roger Heaven for Everyone - Roger You Don't Fool Me - John & Freddie Which means that, out of eleven hits, Freddie was the major contributor on three, Roger on four, Brian on three and John on one. However, keep in mind that the two big hits Roger had were only hits after Freddie took them over and re-arranged them. Album-wise, Freddie dominated the songwriting aspect: he wrote more songs than anybody else on The Works, The Miracle, Innuendo and the post-Innuendo sessions. >>> It's clear that after Hot Space, the others in the band began to contribute a lot more and arguably Hits-wise, yes ... sort of ... album-wise, no: Freddie dominated the songwriting aspect, as he wrote more songs than anybody else on The Works, The Miracle, Innuendo and the post-Innuendo sessions. >>> if we're going strictly by writing credits, actually produced far more successful work than Freddie did. Only Roger did. John didn't, Brian didn't. >>> than the rather experimental 'Hot Space' that, as we know, both men (Roger in particular) had strong reservations about. Not really. Roger and John hated Hot Space, but Brian defended it and Freddie loved it. Brian was the heavy writer of the band, but he also had his moments of keyboard-led efforts. Remember: Brian wrote twice as many songs as John for the album. And Brian was a principal 'offender' (so to speak) by incorporating synth pads, synth bass and drum machines. He's always been proud of the album. Granted, it's not his favourite, but he hadn't got strong reservations about it. Roger did, John did, Brian didn't. >>> I don't think it can be dismissed that after HS when the band very much stuck to the mainstream for the next three albums, that Roger and Brian (although Brian always had been a strong writer) then wrote the lions share of the more successful songs. Roger did, Brian didn't: Hammer to Fall wasn't a big hit, neither was Who Wants to Live Forever (a masterpiece, but not a big hit). His only true hit in those years was I Want It All. So no, he did NOT have the lion's share. >>> I don't think that can be dismissed as coincidence. No, because it's not right to begin with. Roger's hit contributions were born after Hot Space, and they were prominent. But Brian did NOT have the lion's share of hits. Before HS he had WWRY, Fat Bots (the double-A with Bicycle was a big seller) and Flash (which sold more than UP, mind you). After HS he only had ONE big hit he wrote by himself. Not the lion's share at all. >>> I think the direction the band took after HS, was much more in tune to where Brian and Roger were at the time, therefore they were in a position to deliver the more commercially successful songs. No, the direction was in tune to where THE FOUR OF THEM were going. Hit-wise, Roger contributed more than the others, Brian did NOT. Song-wise, Freddie remained the chief songwriter for the remaining albums except for A Kind of Magic. |
| mooghead 10.09.2011 16:08 |
Disagree with the Freddie w***fest above. Hot Space is an example of what happens when a democracy is pulled in one direction by an individual who has been given too much influence. Hot Space was a serious low point in every respect for Queen. |
| Holly2003 10.09.2011 16:10 |
Deaky hated Hot Space? Has he said that? He always liked funk/soul. I take your point that he wasn;t as involved on HS as some think, but that doesn't equate to hating it. |
| brENsKi 10.09.2011 16:39 |
AlbaNo1 wrote: I agree with the OP in basic terms. Hot Space was a risk for Queen, they knew their fanbase was mainly hard rock fans, and they were perceived as a rock band with a few quirks and a pop dimension. The markers they set down for Hot Space were too far out for most fans and also did not compare in quality to the real disco/dance acts. Aside from the "disco" numbers the songs are an odd balance, for example Life is Real always stood out to me as being unusually deep lyrically. After Hot Space they knew they could never stray outside the parameters of their mainstream identity again. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ i disagree with this compeltely......has no-one listened to "the game"...queen already were accepted in this direction world-wide.....AOBTD being the prime example. In fact, the Game was merely follwoing the current 1979 hip-hop trend...and this wans't just "dust" it extended to "dragon attack" and "don't try suicide" I don't think hot space itself was the issue...it was the overtly "gay" image that tracks like body language and the videos portrayed....america was more than ready for funk rock....ffs - it'd embraced the like fot he doobies etc for years...even Deep Purple's last album was more "soulful". America had no issue with the soul/hip-hop.funk tracks.....the sexuality of the videos killed them...and then, in 84...I WTBF banged the final nail in Queen's USA coffin. |
| Snackpot 10.09.2011 17:36 |
Queen had moved in that direction but it wasn't a 'natural' progression, same as an album with a strong under current of English opera after A Night at the Opera wouldn't have been a 'natural' thing for them to have done because 'look at Bohemian Rhapsody' They were at the time, still primarily a 'rock band. They weren't really doing the heavy rock stuff that they earlier were known for, particularly I think by American audiences, but we cannot surely say that Hot Space was what people were expecting from them. It wasn't and that is, partially, why it didn't do terribly well. if we want to go back and say that HS was just a natural progression, all the band supported it and there was no discernable shift back to'the norm' after that, possibly as a backlash from HS from within the band - then fine, but we'd be completely re-writing history. It'd be odd, given how poorly the album did, for there not to have been a backlash and given the reservations Brian and Roger always had about it and given how more 'traditional' subsequent albums were, I think we can put two and two together. By 'traditional' of course songs were current, they weren't writing 70s stuff, but they weren't as deviated from the mainstream audience as HS was. The reduction of Freddie's influence in terms of writing credits for songs that were considered primary songs on the albums cannot be ignored either. He was still writing songs for the albums as he was still quite prolific as a writer but post HS he certainly stopped churning out the hits. Not a criticism, but I think HS was a notable watershed in the band's life and the whole 'No it wasn't, nothing changed, album was the same, subsequent albums weren't influenced by HS's failure, nobody hated it, Freddie stayed just as influential as a writer and it may as well be considered that HS was as successful as every other album they've had' - is, I'm sorry, a nonsense. |
| Sebastian 10.09.2011 18:14 |
D>>> Deaky hated Hot Space? Has he said that? Yes. When touring Japan, John got interviewed for Music Life, and he clearly stated that he hated both Jazz and Hot Space. When touring Japan with Roger, they both said so as well ('84, I believe). When interviewed in Denmark ('86 ... or maybe it was West Germany), he clearly stated that, for him, the best point of the band's career was their first visit to South America. And the worst: Hot Space, which ironically, was around the same time. >>> He always liked funk/soul. And that may have been the reason. I love choral music. That makes me very anal-ytical of it, and harder to please with it than most people. If I listen to, say, a school choir singing Now Is the Month of Maying (a piece I know fairly well), I can detect errors and inaccuracies on the bass part, for instance, because I *do* know how it's supposed to go. A non-expert on the genre/style may overlook that and content him/her-self with listening to good voices and/or appreciate the effort. For me, that's not enough. Who do you think are gonna be the most critical people about Fred's biopic? The fans of course, as they (we) know what happened, and as such, we will be able to detect (or more to the point, unable to ignore) mistakes and stuff (for instance, if they claim The Works was recorded in '85 in Switzerland). For that same reason, John was probably more critical of the band's funk efforts and may have disliked them if he felt his bandmates were not doing it right. So maybe Dancer and Body Language were in a genre that he liked; but for that reason, he'd be more critical and would detect how rookie Brian and Freddie were in terms of writing funk/soul. And if you add the fact that he did not even participate on either track as the composers replaced him by shitty synth-bass ... well, there's your explanation. The problem with Hot Space is not the genre. It's the sloppiness it's got. John knew the genre well, and having heard stuff like Off the Wall or Donna Summer's late 70's output, Hot Space paled in comparison. If anyone of the four could understand that well, it was John. |
| AlbaNo1 10.09.2011 18:48 |
brENsKi wrote: AlbaNo1 wrote: I agree with the OP in basic terms. Hot Space was a risk for Queen, they knew their fanbase was mainly hard rock fans, and they were perceived as a rock band with a few quirks and a pop dimension. The markers they set down for Hot Space were too far out for most fans and also did not compare in quality to the real disco/dance acts. Aside from the "disco" numbers the songs are an odd balance, for example Life is Real always stood out to me as being unusually deep lyrically. After Hot Space they knew they could never stray outside the parameters of their mainstream identity again. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ i disagree with this compeltely......has no-one listened to "the game"...queen already were accepted in this direction world-wide.....AOBTD being the prime example. In fact, the Game was merely follwoing the current 1979 hip-hop trend...and this wans't just "dust" it extended to "dragon attack" and "don't try suicide" I don't think hot space itself was the issue...it was the overtly "gay" image that tracks like body language and the videos portrayed....america was more than ready for funk rock....ffs - it'd embraced the like fot he doobies etc for years...even Deep Purple's last album was more "soulful". America had no issue with the soul/hip-hop.funk tracks.....the sexuality of the videos killed them...and then, in 84...I WTBF banged the final nail in Queen's USA coffin. Dragon Attack if anything could be a precursor for nu-metal, it has the funk but good aggressive vocals and guitars. Dont Try Suicide is very stripped back. The whole slightly sparser sound of The Game bar the songs The Game and Save Me suited the US market as did News of the World. Need Your Loving and Crazy Little Thing Called Love were throwback songs. The Hot Space songs have a different sound . Realistically Queen were not at the edge of funk rock or whatever term you want. Its an American progression from their own roots. There would not have been much overlap in the record buying public between Queen and Earth Wind and Fire. Personally I like Hot Space . But I do believe the band became more aware of who their fanbase was and pulled back from such creative freedom after which is what I believe the OP was suggesting. Obviously not enough to keep the mainstream US but then maybe thats a mark of distinction considering what was MTV mid 80s. |
| Snackpot 10.09.2011 19:05 |
AlbaNo1 wrote: Personally I like Hot Space . But I do believe the band became more aware of who their fanbase was and pulled back from such creative freedom after which is what I believe the OP was suggesting. Obviously not enough to keep the mainstream US but then maybe thats a mark of distinction considering what was MTV mid 80s. *********************************** Yes this was basically what I was on about. if you look at the creative 'risks' Queen took on their earlier albums and venturing into areas that not only were they not expected to go as a rock group, but where mainstream music hadn't really gone before, that seemingly came to an abrupt halt after HS, at least until the Innuendo album. I think you're right, they did post the failure of HS become consciously aware of for commercial reasons, make an album that was largely 'safe' and I think The Works, AKOM and The Miracle are, critically looking at them, very 'safe' albums. They were of course current to their time and updated for the time they were made but I don't think it's a coincidence that the band took that direction after the somewhat experimental HS. I think Queen, especially for The Works, were acutely aware of what was EXPECTED of them, as opposed to what they (or some of them) may have necessarily wanted to do at the time. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of all three albums (less so AKOM) but whilst Queen weren't the most radical of bands in the world before, they usually always threw a curve ball in there somewhere. The three albums from 1984-1989 were, despite their quality, surely quite 'safe' albums, weren't they? |
| panasonic 10.09.2011 20:51 |
Snackpot wrote: The three albums from 1984-1989 were, despite their quality, surely quite 'safe' albums, weren't they? ========================================================================================== I agree and that is probably the reason that FOR ME, I prefer and listen to Hot Space far more than following next 3 albums. It's not necessarily that I prefer funk or whatever because I don't, I tend to like rock music best. It's just that the following 3 albums sound more contrived. Maybe too, it’s some of the songs and the continuity of the albums being seen as simply more of a collection of songs rather than an album. The production on The Works particularly bugs me for some reason too, maybe it's the reverb etc.. I think most can agree that Innuendo was a return to form and I'm also a huge fan of Made in Heaven. |
| Holly2003 11.09.2011 02:01 |
Sebastian wrote: D>>> Deaky hated Hot Space? Has he said that? Yes. When touring Japan, John got interviewed for Music Life, and he clearly stated that he hated both Jazz and Hot Space. When touring Japan with Roger, they both said so as well ('84, I believe). When interviewed in Denmark ('86 ... or maybe it was West Germany), he clearly stated that, for him, the best point of the band's career was their first visit to South America. And the worst: Hot Space, which ironically, was around the same time. >>> He always liked funk/soul. And that may have been the reason. I love choral music. That makes me very anal-ytical of it, and harder to please with it than most people. If I listen to, say, a school choir singing Now Is the Month of Maying (a piece I know fairly well), I can detect errors and inaccuracies on the bass part, for instance, because I *do* know how it's supposed to go. A non-expert on the genre/style may overlook that and content him/her-self with listening to good voices and/or appreciate the effort. For me, that's not enough. Who do you think are gonna be the most critical people about Fred's biopic? The fans of course, as they (we) know what happened, and as such, we will be able to detect (or more to the point, unable to ignore) mistakes and stuff (for instance, if they claim The Works was recorded in '85 in Switzerland). For that same reason, John was probably more critical of the band's funk efforts and may have disliked them if he felt his bandmates were not doing it right. So maybe Dancer and Body Language were in a genre that he liked; but for that reason, he'd be more critical and would detect how rookie Brian and Freddie were in terms of writing funk/soul. And if you add the fact that he did not even participate on either track as the composers replaced him by shitty synth-bass ... well, there's your explanation. The problem with Hot Space is not the genre. It's the sloppiness it's got. John knew the genre well, and having heard stuff like Off the Wall or Donna Summer's late 70's output, Hot Space paled in comparison. If anyone of the four could understand that well, it was John. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting. I'd always assumed HS was mostly Deaky/Fred influenced. I've always considered the Brian/Roger tracks to be the weakest on the album (apart from Las Palabras, which is excellent) whereas Deaky's Back Chat is among the best songs he's written. So ... with more Fred/Deaky influence, HS might've been a better album. This may then be the one occasion where the band's "team" effort approach (i.e. song contributions by all 4 members) undermines the quality of the album |
| Snackpot 11.09.2011 04:49 |
Is it possible that John simply wasn't happy with the finished project as opposed to having had serious concerns and reservations about it during the process? Given how 'democratic' Queen always were, I find it hard to believe that you'd have John, Brian and Roger all on one side and Freddie going against the grain and in the end getting his way. Doesn't seem plausible to me. I can believe John perhaps wasn't happy with the album as it turned out but not that he wasn't on board at the time. Or at least someone willing to back Freddie vs the other two. I wouldn't believe Freddie just got his own way for the whole album and the other three 'had to' go along with it. |
| maxpower 11.09.2011 06:16 |
As Freddie said "it's only a bloody record" its not that bad & for me has aged better than The Works |
| Sebastian 11.09.2011 09:45 |
>>> Given how 'democratic' Queen always were, I find it hard to believe that you'd have John, Brian and Roger all on one side and Freddie going against the grain and in the end getting his way. It wasn't 3 vs 1, it was 2 vs 2: Brian was IN FAVOUR of the album. He still is. Granted, it's not his favourite and he doesn't rate it as highly as Queen II or Made in Heaven, but he's always defended it. Queen were democratic, yes. But they also had the unwritten law that the author of the song got his way. If he wanted things done in a certain way, that's how they'd be, full stop. Besides Under Pressure, which was credited to five people, there are ten songs on the album, six of which are Brian's or Freddie's entirely, and another one which is partly Freddie. Those 6.5 songs include the funkier side of the album, and those 6.5 songs include most of the drum-machine/synth-bass things. >>> Or at least someone willing to back Freddie vs the other two. It wasn't Freddie and John vs the other two. Brian was on board from the start. Two of his songs were heavily layered with synthesisers, one of them doesn't even have real bass ... he's more 'guilty' for HS than John and Roger. >>> I wouldn't believe Freddie just got his own way for the whole album and the other three 'had to' go along with it. Because it wasn't just Freddie. Brian was there too. In fact, on the lead single, only the two of them perform. |
| mike hunt 12.09.2011 00:55 |
Snackpot wrote: Is it possible that John simply wasn't happy with the finished project as opposed to having had serious concerns and reservations about it during the process? Given how 'democratic' Queen always were, I find it hard to believe that you'd have John, Brian and Roger all on one side and Freddie going against the grain and in the end getting his way. Doesn't seem plausible to me. I can believe John perhaps wasn't happy with the album as it turned out but not that he wasn't on board at the time. Or at least someone willing to back Freddie vs the other two. I wouldn't believe Freddie just got his own way for the whole album and the other three 'had to' go along with it. i agree!....The 'Day's of Our lives "Documentry, Brian and Roger seem to blame Freddie and his boyfriend for Hot Space going bad, but if they were all equals, like Queenzoner's like to say, Why did freddie get everything he wanted with the album?.....Hot Space had an obvious Freddie Influence, but he's not entirely too blame.......Brian was on board and so was John, even if they didn't like the final result...Roger was heading in that direction too, and wrote the first funky track, a song called "fun it" and he introduced the idea of using synth's, so it's easy for him to put the blame on everyone else when an album is a failure, Especially a dead man.....His own songs were littered with synth's...Action this Day?....Prime Jive? Radio Ga Ga?......he likes to sound like he's the rocker and cool one, but he's as guilty as anyone for the dance/funk sound.... |
| smilebrian 12.09.2011 07:01 |
maxpower wrote: As Freddie said "it's only a bloody record" its not that bad & for me has aged better than The Works ******** I agree, Hot Space is way more interesting than The Works which is easily Queen's weakest album. Their only weak album actually. Fabulous singles, disastrous album tracks. I just think Queen ran out of steam by Hot Space. Most bands would have ended here (long before it actually), but Queen found a way to keep on going. Ten years of absolute magnificence, The Works onwards was just a job after that (with some fabulous highlights thrown in). |
| Sebastian 12.09.2011 08:55 |
The band were democratic in things like which song should be the single, where should they tour next, where should they record, etc. But when it came to individual songs, the author got his way. So if the person who'd written the song wanted to have it as a loop of bloody elephants making sex noises, that's the way it was gonna be. And albums were not concept albums, they just turned out the way they turned out due to the songs. So, if an album had more songs by Freddie than by John, then Freddie was more to blame (or to thank, depending on the case) for the musical direction it took. |
| OneTrackMind 12.09.2011 09:27 |
I don't understand the dislike for Hot Space, personally. I think there's some amazingly well written songs on it. For me it's a better album than The Works, by quite a way. I assume most people here have heard Staying Power live at the bowl. If they'd recorded it at the tempo they played it live, we'd all be raving about it. Dancer is nothing special, but a solid pop/rock song all the same. Same with Back Chat, had some nice hooks, nice little funky number. Personally I think Body Language is a catchy, light hearted number with a great vocal and more importantly, it was completely different from anything they'd done before, which is a good thing. I like Calling All Girls a lot, even if it's a little pop orientated. Las Palabras de Amor is a beautiful song, and Under Pressure of course is a masterpiece. The only real stinker on that album for me is Cool Cat. At the end of the day, they were experimenting with their sound and still managed an album that was better than 90% of what was around then, or now for that matter. There's some great stuff on it. I personally rate it higher than Queen 1, The Works and probably a kind of Magic too. |
| Sebastian 12.09.2011 11:09 |
I also rate it higher than The Works and A Kind of Magic. Not above Queen I though, but that's of course a matter of taste. I do have some complaints about the way they recorded Hot Space in terms of instrumentation, though. Why using shitty drum machines when you've got an amazing and very underrated drummer? Why using shitty synth-bass when you've got an amazing bassist? Why reducing one of the best guitar players of his genre to a couple of notes at the end of a song instead of getting him to do one of his May-estic solos? The songs would, in my opinion, have sounded way way way better if they, and Freddie in particular, hadn't used those sessions as ego trips. |
| br5946 12.09.2011 12:06 |
Sebastian, you said 'You Don't Fool Me - John & Freddie'. I thought YDFM was Freddie & Roger - in any case, the bare bones of the song would probably be the last track Freddie got credit for. I can see why you put that quotation down - Deacy, like other people have cited, loved his funk vibes. But in all truthfulness, YDFM should probably be credited to David Richards. |
| Sebastian 12.09.2011 13:29 |
Brian commented that the song had originated by John and Freddie. Then DR did his magic and then Roger, John and Brian added new bits. So, in a way, it's a collaboration. However, I personally give the credit to John and Freddie as they originated the song per se. DR did a mix, and a very good one. But if I put synth phrases, etc. over the progression of Mozart's 40th Symphony, should I be considered a 'composer' or is it still Mozart's creation? |
| ParisNair 12.09.2011 13:46 |
I find it surprising that Brian was in support of Hostpace and John was not. Going by their natural inclination at the time, I would have thought Freddie and John were in favor and Brian and Roger against. Having said that, I also feel that the decision to work on an album that sounds like Hostpace would have been a unanimous decision after the huge success of The Game. |
| Sebastian 12.09.2011 15:52 |
Not really. They didn't make concept albums. The albums resulted from the 10-13 songs they happened to be writing at the time. That's why we've got Stone Cold Crazy and Dear Friends on the same album, or Prophet's Song and Love of My Life, or Dancer and Put Out the Fire. The fact Brian's a metalhead (sort of) doesn't mean he's always been 100% into that. Remember Anita Dobson? Collaborations with 5ive? Britney Spears? Who do you think wrote Dancer and Las Palabras de Amor? |
| ParisNair 12.09.2011 16:10 |
Are you saying that all of them were writing sngs which coincidentally happen to belong largely to the funk/disco type of music, and hence Hot Sapce got its sound? I don't think that was how it was. I don't know anything for a fact, but it does not convince me. I'm sure they decided to do more songs in the Game style ie somethign along the lines of Bites- Dragon Attack - Coming Soon - Prime Jive and others. Due to the success of Bites as well as the album itself. If the game had not been such a big success or Bites, definitely we would not have got Hot Space. And consequently Thriller :-P I think we would have got Magic, Miracle sooner. |
| rhyeking 12.09.2011 16:24 |
They didn't do "concept albums" as such (like Tommy or The Wall) but there were themes to their songs that wove through albums, even if not every song addressed it. If anything, The Works is arguably the closest thing to a tightly thematic album, discussing the human spirit, one trapped in a technological world. I've said it before, I feel Innuendo is much more the successor album thematically to A Night At The Opera, rather than A Day At The Races. Opera is like a theatrical experience (like going to an old Vaudeville show) and Innuendo is like peeking behind the curtain during the show to see the mad, skewed world of this theatre troupe that may not have all it's marbles. |
| Sebastian 12.09.2011 22:03 |
The Works thematic? Not really. Two songs deal with the whole machines vs humans topic. The remaining 77.78% of the album is unrelated to that. |
| The Real Wizard 12.09.2011 23:28 |
rhyeking wrote: I've said it before, I feel Innuendo is much more the successor album thematically to A Night At The Opera, rather than A Day At The Races. Opera is like a theatrical experience (like going to an old Vaudeville show) and Innuendo is like peeking behind the curtain during the show to see the mad, skewed world of this theatre troupe that may not have all it's marbles. ===================== Brilliantly put. Innuendo was Queen's best record after ANATO in my eyes. ADATR and NOTW were great records written by the band at their happiest, but Innuendo is a step above. It's the only other time the Queen formula was perfected, as far as I'm concerned. |
| Danne 13.09.2011 02:35 |
Sebastian wrote: And that may have been the reason. I love choral music. That makes me very anal-ytical of it, and harder to please with it than most people. If I listen to, say, a school choir singing Now Is the Month of Maying (a piece I know fairly well), I can detect errors and inaccuracies on the bass part, for instance, because I *do* know how it's supposed to go. A non-expert on the genre/style may overlook that and content him/her-self with listening to good voices and/or appreciate the effort. For me, that's not enough. I'm working as a choir leader and I have been singing in choirs since I was 8 (and I'm now 34), and I both agree and disagree with you. Sure, in many cases you can hear what's wrong or not on the highest level better if you know your stuff, but you can also appreciate the effort more, since you know what it takes to be really good. In my opinion you have to be able to appreciate something on different levels. Just because I know choral music doesn't mean I can't enjoy an amateur choir singing "Now is the month of maying", you have to judge something for what it is. |
| ITSM 13.09.2011 07:07 |
After Hot Space, it looks like they didn't want to take "any more chances". Freddie sang every song, and they said for The Works album, that they wanted to create something between A Night at the Opera and The Game - which were their most-selling albums (or at least singles, I think). And it worked - they had (about) 4 singles from each album after Hot Space. But I think most fans agree that their best albums are the first 5. |
| Sebastian 13.09.2011 07:59 |
>>> Sure, in many cases you can hear what's wrong or not on the highest level better if you know your stuff, but you can also appreciate the effort more, since you know what it takes to be really good. In my opinion you have to be able to appreciate something on different levels. Just because I know choral music doesn't mean I can't enjoy an amateur choir singing "Now is the month of maying", you have to judge something for what it is. True, but I wouldn't appreciate a choir (amateur, semi-pro, pro or world-class) that didn't bother doing it better, knowing they could. Just like I wouldn't appreciate if Fred's biopic stated something historically or geographically inaccurate, knowing they could've spent the same amount of time doing it well enough. So it's sort of a double-edged sword. I can't speak a word of French, so if somebody spoke to me in that language with horrible pronunciation and flawed grammar, I still wouldn't know they're mistaken, as I don't know. But a person who's fluent on it would detect those errors immediately, and possibly get annoyed by them. |
| Amazon 13.09.2011 11:13 |
mooghead wrote: "Hot Space is an example of what happens when a democracy is pulled in one direction by an individual who has been given too much influence. Hot Space was a serious low point in every respect for Queen." Disagree. I think it's a very underappreciated album. While it's not great by any means, it features Freddie at the peak of his powers, and having a hell of a good time. IMO Queen's lowest points were The Works & A Kind of Magic (neither of which I consider to be bad albums). |
| Sebastian 13.09.2011 11:24 |
I can't believe it, but I actually agree with Amazon. |
| The Real Wizard 13.09.2011 11:37 |
I can top that - I agree with her too :D |
| Sebastian 13.09.2011 14:04 |
Bloody hell! |
| Amazon 14.09.2011 02:10 |
:D I know we don't always agree, but you don't need to act so shocked that we do agree on something. :D |
| mike hunt 14.09.2011 02:19 |
Sir GH wrote: rhyeking wrote: I've said it before, I feel Innuendo is much more the successor album thematically to A Night At The Opera, rather than A Day At The Races. Opera is like a theatrical experience (like going to an old Vaudeville show) and Innuendo is like peeking behind the curtain during the show to see the mad, skewed world of this theatre troupe that may not have all it's marbles. ===================== Brilliantly put. Innuendo was Queen's best record after ANATO in my eyes. ADATR and NOTW were great records written by the band at their happiest, but Innuendo is a step above. It's the only other time the Queen formula was perfected, as far as I'm concerned. i respect you're opinion, but you really think Innuendo is better than Races?.....even NOTW?....Is there anything so average as The hitman, Headlong, and Delilah on those records?...I rank Innuendo clearly behind the first 6, and on the same level or slightly better than the next batch of good albums, like The Game and Jazz. |
| louvox 14.09.2011 15:41 |
I would say that it goes back a little further than Hot Space. It started with the release of “Another one bites the dust”. They thought that’s what their fans wanted from them, but in reality the majority of their true USA fans despised that song. It was an otherwise hiccup on fine album. The problem with “Hot Space” is that it sounds flat, boring and uninspired. They simply copied what everyone else was producing at the time. Something they really didn’t do before hand. The choice of music style was not an issue, but they way it was recorded was beneath their standards. Had they done like what they did in the past, take something and make it their own, most fans would be praising “Hot Space”. Case in point, the live versions of “Back chat, Staying power, Action this day & Calling all girls” rock with their very best while their studio counterparts lack in every aspect. From “The works to “The miracle” they stopped trying to be innovative. My feeling is they lost interest and became complacent. Freddie and Brian’s song writing waned for the most part. John and Roger have written some very good songs but have never been as consistent as Freddie or Brian. Also the production of the “The Works and “A Kind of magic” sound terrible compared to their 70’s output. Plus crappy songs breeds crappy sales and crappy fan reaction. You can take just about any song off “Hot space through “The Miracle” remove Freddie’s voice and you couldn’t tell it apart from most of the garbage being produced during the 80’s. Queen simply became just another “Euro trash synth band de jur” It wasn’t any video, statement, appearance or lack of tour that did in Queen in the USA. It was very simply the rubbish on their records. |
| ActionFletch 29.12.2011 01:46 |
When Queen were promoting The Miracle they did an hour long interview on Britains Radio 1 - During which Brian says (paraphrased) "..we really want to please as many people as possible, we really do..." This says it all for me - you can't please 'as many people as possible' by taking risks. I only really dig two songs after the AKOM album and that's, Hang On In There and Stealin'. Queen always wanted to sell as many records as possible but they used to do this BY taking risks - not the trite they recorded on The Miracle and Innuendo. |
| tomchristie22 29.12.2011 03:58 |
Some of this is a bit harsh. While a lot of the 80's output wasn't as innovative as the early 70's albums, it is still good music, and Queen music, in its own right. It is true however that a lot of Hot Space is pretty bland. |
| Ivo-1976 29.12.2011 06:28 |
I think it was a natural process. Queen did not stick to a formula, they wanted to make products of their time. As time went by, their music changed. From rock to soul/funk to Euro-pop, and back to the roots on the last two albums. What also played a role here is that after a period of being a very close band, the band members all sort of went their own way. Freddie got into the party scene, Roger did solo albums, John started a family. Working in the studio got harder as the differences between the band members grew. Queen were hardly a band and they were having a hard time working together. It's a Miracle that the band did not split up in the '80s. Eventually, Freddie's disease forced the band back together to create The Miracle and Innuendo. As a band, not as individuals. There was no time for conflicts so all the guys were far more cooperative. |
| YAFF 29.12.2011 14:55 |
well, as many others have said, I truly enjoy "Hot Space". I was twelve when it came out and I guess my mom (huge Queen fan) didn't like it because it wasn't until years later that I heard the album in full (during a renewed interest in the band). There were four studio albums to follow and I think there definitely was an aversion to taking risk. They didn't go grunge. They didn't go industrial. They didn't go true Hip Hop. They didn't go New Jack. They incorporated the 80s sound and stayed with their own style from that point on. Thank goodness. Btw I think I actually listen to "Hot Space" and "A King Of Magic" more than any others these days. Admittedely though, this is likely due to me having "missed" those albums when they came being I was into something else. |
| tomchristie22 30.12.2011 05:17 |
Hot Space has grown on me recently, I must admit. Brian's tracks are probably the least funk based, and the worse ones are saved by live renditions (Staying Power particularly, the whole brass stuff I didn't like) |
| cmsdrums 31.12.2011 05:31 |
If I listen to Hot Space just as a record in isolation I really like most of it. The problem arises only when comparing it directly to their other works such as ANATO or Sheer Heart Attack. My opinion, and something the band openly admit, is that they DID actively try to write in a certain vein for that album based on the success of ...Dust as a single. Although The Game had a certain style, it was still very much a Queen type album with lots of different styles but still with real instruments and the true Queen sound present on tracks like Play The Game and Save Me. There was no overall collective sense of the band going for a narrowed down certain style, which when we get to Hot Space is very much the case - in advance they actively wanted the album to have a specific genre feel and sound, and by 'compromising' and limiting themselves for the first time in this way they came unstuck. Bizarrely though I would say the relative lack of success of Hot Space didn't make them risk averse instantly, because to me, Radio Ga Ga could be seen as a massive risk as the first single afterwards - when analysed it really is a most Un-Queen like single; a repeated drum machine pattern, synths, no real rhythm guitar or solo to speak of, very 'euro pop' sounding. However, it worked and is now seen as one of the most classic Queen songs of all time. This really could have happened to Staying Power or Back Chat!! |
| Sebastian 31.12.2011 06:04 |
I completely agree with that: The Works album as a whole is quite different from Hot Space, but the lead single (and its video) is basically a follow-up to HS only with better technology and more emphasis on the sing-along chorus. It shares most of what people criticise about HS: drum machines, loads of synthesisers, robotic feeling (this time even more), lack of a killer guitar solo, there are no guitar harmonies, there's no piano (only a synth doing piano sound, which is not quite the same), there's a guest musician (which they didn't need for albums like Opera or Races), they (ab)use the Roland Jupiter 8 arpeggiator... I think they kept taking risks until the end, including their post-Freddie activities on which, as most of you know, I disagree with the use of the Queen name (but I know that's not my call, of course) but I respect their quality. Some of the risks they took after Hot Space: * Not touring the States even though roughly half of their income came from what they sold there. * Releasing 'Ga Ga' as a lead single. * Dragging up for the 'Break Free' video. * Releasing a Xmas single. * Agreeing to do another soundtrack even though Flash had sold far less than Hot Space and in fact I think the only Queen albums that sold less than Flash were 'Queen' and 'Queen II'. * Appearing at Live Aid with no soundcheck and no lighting rig and even though they were facing internal conflicts and the whole Band Aid thing had a 'new generation' vibe. For people like The Who and (pseudo) Led Zeppelin, that concert was catastrophic. Queen risked a lot by going there and obviously did a great job which silenced (most of) their critics or doubters. Looking at it in hindsight it was an obvious move, but right until 13th July, it was a risk. * Releasing a single as non-formulaic and complex as 'Princes of the Universe' in a country where, at the time, the biggest seling hits were things like The Final Countdown, Papa Don't Preach and Rock Me Amadeus. * Taking time for off-Queen projects, even though Starfleet, Fun It, Strange Frontier and Mr Bad Guy had all sold poorly. * The Magic tour was also something that right now seems quite obvious, but back then it was a big risk and Freddie, of all people, had reservations about it, which were swiftly eliminated once the tour began and he felt in his element but still, it WAS a risk. It paid off, but it WAS a risk. * When the biggest hits of the moment were things such as Like a Prayer, Eternal Flame, Don't Worry Be Happy and Orinoco Flow, the single Queen chose as their lead (and also their comeback after their longest hiatus up 'til then) was I Want It All. From a risk-free perspective, things like Invisible Man or even Rain Must Fall would've been more obvious choices when seeing the list of big selling hits from other artists. * Likewise, neither Scandal nor The Miracle were single material, let alone for *that* year. Two further risks, and results were not positive: both songs are excellent but as singles they were flops. * By the time Queen finished the Innuendo album (and decided on which the lead single would be), the biggest hits of the moment in both sides of the Atlantic were stuff like Ice Ice Baby, The Postman Song and the song from Ghost. If Queen were into 'an aversion to risk', they'd have chosen Delilah as a lead single (stupid song but a lot of stupid songs were being hits back then) instead of ... Innuendo (granted, Headlong in America, which was still hugely risky considering what was going on at the time). |
| Sebastian 27.03.2015 09:55 |
Bumped. Good times. |
| Oscar J 27.03.2015 12:19 |
You said there are no guitar harmonies on the Works. I hear plenty in KPTOW and It's A Hard Life. |
| soxtalon 27.03.2015 13:04 |
^ He said the lead single not the album |
| Oscar J 27.03.2015 13:25 |
Oh, never mind then. |
| Martin Packer 27.03.2015 15:41 |
I think Queen had got to grips with synths better in The Works (including Radio Gaga) than they had in Hot Space. I think they had to go up the learning curve across The Game, Hot Space and The Works. In some ways Machines was about that - learning to blend. And going up the learning curve is, at least in my experience, risky: Either through underwhelmingness or over-extension. With Queen we saw some of both. |
| Sebastian 27.03.2015 17:08 |
Well, around half the synths on that album were played by people outside the band, so maybe it's not that they honed their craft, they merely found someone who could play better. |
| mooghead 27.03.2015 17:47 |
I dont think it created an aversion to risk. It created an aversion to making a record not all parties were tuned in to. Keep that for your solo stuff. |
| Sebastian 27.03.2015 20:17 |
It could be quibbled that that kept happening, although possibly on a much smaller scale. Songs like 'Bijou', 'Delilah' and 'Gimme the Prize' have been confirmed not to have suited everyone's taste at the time, but they still got included. But yeah, I suppose they became more democratic as a whole. 'Hot Space' was a case of Freddie forcing the other three to do it his way, and it was an epic fail. On the very next record he had to compromise a lot more: the first two singles were not written by him, he had to move from NYC to LA, some of Roger's, Brian's and John's songs had a different keyboardist, and his 'Hot Space'-esque ideas had to be saved for his one and only solo album. He still retained some influence, though, as he re-arranged 'Ga Ga' (and possibly 'Break Free'), wrote more songs than anyone else on the album, and he got his way on the 'Hard Life' video, which possibly cost them more money than they ever made from the single, and where the rest of the band were demoted to extras. |
| luthorn 29.03.2015 15:14 |
I love Gimme the Prize... awesome song. Love Hot Space too. Everything from the cover, through the album, all the way to live performance. |
| matt z 30.03.2015 06:09 |
Sebastian pointed out quite a few risks there. Great job. I think they intentionally tried to hit the charts by stealing styles that were popular at the time. I don't have shazam otherwise I would have found out the name to a very gay 80's tune someone was playing recently. Must have been Smiths or pet shop boys. But it sounded a lot like BACK CHAT. AOBTD hit and they wanted to maintain top chart relevance. Madonna did it with scouts effectively taking whatever sound was new and current and applying it to her subsequent releases. Of course it detracted from the classic QUEEN sound. They'd have gotten bored with that eventually. Derivative: BC KPTOW OYOL Invisible man HEADLONG At least one per album after their brazen success with AOBTD. Anyways. Interesting post. I love it when people misspell album titles. It just sounds funny reading HOSTPACE and A KING OF MAGIC *(I think Yul Brynner was in that one) |
| The Real Wizard 03.04.2015 16:40 |
Sebastian wrote: * Agreeing to do another soundtrack even though Flash had sold far less than Hot Space and in fact I think the only Queen albums that sold less than Flash were 'Queen' and 'Queen II'.Yay for replying to posts that are several years old. Excellent post ! But to be fair, Flash Gordon was ultimately a silly parody film, while The Highlander had big names like Sean Connery and Michael Kamen. It was bound to be much more successful. But it actually wasn't. It made a lot less money at the box office. |
| Sebastian 03.04.2015 17:41 |
Either way it was still a risk, as was the ultimately-aborted 'Hotel New Hampshire' project. So the bottomline is 'Hot Space' did not create an aversion to risk, not at all. |
| brENsKi 04.04.2015 16:59 |
you're correct Seb. it did not create an "aversion to risk" but HS did create an aversion to decent song-writing & production...which (sadly) didn't break til Freddie was on his last legs |
| Sebastian 05.04.2015 08:02 |
I disagree. Who Wants to Live Forever and It's a Hard Life are really good songs. So is Hammer to Fall, though the recording itself leaves a lot to be desired. I also think they're well-produced records. It's not Mack's or David's fault that the band weren't as inspired as in the past or the future. |
| brENsKi 06.04.2015 03:28 |
Seb you've named a handful out of approx 50 tracks!!! even the most ardent fan would have to admit that between The Game and Innuendo - there are more poorly written/produced songs than good. |
| Sebastian 06.04.2015 05:04 |
Poorly written, perhaps. But not poorly produced. That would be between after 'News of the World' and before 'The Game,' though those were far better written. |
| tomchristie22 06.04.2015 06:31 |
I'd posit Princes of the Universe as almost on par with Queen's best standards - let down a bit by the slightly aimless sound of the 'Born to be kings' section. Executed much better in the grittier Highlander version than the album one. I love A Kind of Magic and Radio Ga Ga too, though they're undoubtedly pop songs without much interesting in the way of structure. The Miracle, I Want It All, and Scandal are all brilliant in my view. The Miracle would've been much better had they just left out the 'That time will come...' section, which is not only cheesy, but the crossfade into it is completely unmusical. I Want It All is perhaps let down a bit by the fact that it's so blatant and singular in its purpose as a classic Queen-style rock song, almost to the point of being like a caricature. Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen to, and would've been top notch if they'd used all real instruments. As for Was It All Worth It?, I don't think many will disagree that it makes all the crappier output worthwhile. |
| Sebastian 06.04.2015 08:20 |
tomchristie22 wrote: Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen toThe same applies to a lot of Queen songs, actually, and there's nothing wrong with that. |
| The King Of Rhye 06.04.2015 09:12 |
Sebastian wrote:........some people want to the fill the world with silly little Queen songs.......tomchristie22 wrote: Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen toThe same applies to a lot of Queen songs, actually, and there's nothing wrong with that. |
| tomchristie22 06.04.2015 09:52 |
Sebastian wrote:tomchristie22 wrote: Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen toThe same applies to a lot of Queen songs, actually, and there's nothing wrong with that. |
| tomchristie22 06.04.2015 09:52 |
True, but the difference between Breakthru and slightly more lighthearted songs from earlier Queen is inventiveness. Breathru isn't nearly as interesting as Leroy Brown, Mustapha and the like. [Sorry for double post - the above one would not fix, even when I tried to edit the quotes out entirely] |
| Holly2003 06.04.2015 10:41 |
Sebastian wrote: Some of the risks they took after Hot Space: * Not touring the States even though roughly half of their income came from what they sold there. * Releasing 'Ga Ga' as a lead single. * Dragging up for the 'Break Free' video. * Releasing a Xmas single. * Agreeing to do another soundtrack even though Flash had sold far less than Hot Space and in fact I think the only Queen albums that sold less than Flash were 'Queen' and 'Queen II'. * Appearing at Live Aid with no soundcheck and no lighting rig and even though they were facing internal conflicts and the whole Band Aid thing had a 'new generation' vibe. For people like The Who and (pseudo) Led Zeppelin, that concert was catastrophic. Queen risked a lot by going there and obviously did a great job which silenced (most of) their critics or doubters. Looking at it in hindsight it was an obvious move, but right until 13th July, it was a risk. * Releasing a single as non-formulaic and complex as 'Princes of the Universe' in a country where, at the time, the biggest seling hits were things like The Final Countdown, Papa Don't Preach and Rock Me Amadeus. * Taking time for off-Queen projects, even though Starfleet, Fun It, Strange Frontier and Mr Bad Guy had all sold poorly. * The Magic tour was also something that right now seems quite obvious, but back then it was a big risk and Freddie, of all people, had reservations about it, which were swiftly eliminated once the tour began and he felt in his element but still, it WAS a risk. It paid off, but it WAS a risk. * When the biggest hits of the moment were things such as Like a Prayer, Eternal Flame, Don't Worry Be Happy and Orinoco Flow, the single Queen chose as their lead (and also their comeback after their longest hiatus up 'til then) was I Want It All. From a risk-free perspective, things like Invisible Man or even Rain Must Fall would've been more obvious choices when seeing the list of big selling hits from other artists. * Likewise, neither Scandal nor The Miracle were single material, let alone for *that* year. Two further risks, and results were not positive: both songs are excellent but as singles they were flops. * By the time Queen finished the Innuendo album (and decided on which the lead single would be), the biggest hits of the moment in both sides of the Atlantic were stuff like Ice Ice Baby, The Postman Song and the song from Ghost. If Queen were into 'an aversion to risk', they'd have chosen Delilah as a lead single (stupid song but a lot of stupid songs were being hits back then) instead of ... Innuendo (granted, Headlong in America, which was still hugely risky considering what was going on at the time).Almost everything carries some risk in either doing it or not doing it, so the premise of the discussion isn't very strong. With that said: * Touring the States without a hit record would have been a risk & probably not financially viable, so NOT touring was the safe option. * Releasing 'Ga Ga' as a lead single was a safe option given that DJs are statistically more likely to play a song with "Radio" in the title. Roger even amended the lyrics at the request of their I#US record company, which is hardly 'taking a risk'. * Dragging up for the 'Break Free' video wasn't really risky in the UK, especially when it was clearly a parody of the UK's best known soap opera. I also doubt it was risky in the USA as the Stones had done it nearly two decades earlier and it hardly hurt their career. * Releasing a Xmas single isn't risky at all since it's clearly a one-off and not the norm. I don't think a band can be hurt by the success or failure of a Xmas single, except perhaps if it is so successful that;s all they are remembered for. Besides, Queen were hugely successful in 1984 and there was huge demand for Queen singles in 1984 so it filled a market gap after Hammer to Fall. * Appearing at Live Aid: I suppose they weighed up the risks of no soundcheck and no lighting rig with the risk of not appearing i.e. missing a huge marketing opportunity and possibly a chance to once again make an impact in the USA. * Re 'Princes of the Universe', there really is no telling what song will be successful and which won't. At any point in the last 50 years, repetitive, simple songs have been successful, but it doesn't take much research to find the charts filled with unusual, non-formulaic songs (like Bo Rap) or in the 1980s songs like O Superman. * Taking time off for non-Queen projects could have been the safe option that kept Queen together. Not taking time off might have been the risky option. Queen was the cash cow, so it didn't matter if Brian or Roger's solo careers failed. However, Fred did seem to take a risk with Mr Bad Guy in attempting to forge a solo career. It failed and he came back to Queen with his tail between his legs. * There was so much demand for Queen in the 1980s that the Magic tour wasn't really a risk except in the very generic way that any large endeavour is risky for any number of logistic or practical reasons. But they had done the maths and seen others do stadium tours so they must have been certain it was financially viable. All the rest about risky singles makes little sense for the reason stated above: singles don't have to be indicative of the wider music scene and just need to be catchy and promoted properly. That won't guarantee a hit but it gives a song the best chance to be successful. |
| Sebastian 06.04.2015 21:25 |
Some very good points in there. It'd be interesting, for that same reason, to analyse how risky they actually were *before* 'Hot Space'. |
| hobbit in Rhye 13.04.2015 15:54 |
^ I would love to read that analysis of risk too. While waiting, here is my two cents about their mindset, I divide their time into 4 periods: 1973 - 1977: From "Queen" to "A Day at the Races" They were new, they were ambitious and they were pretty naive. They had plenty of ideas, which they'd been simmering since their youth (for example Seven Seas of Rhye) - big ideas don't just come piling up after several days of brooding. So that was their most profilic period, because it was a cumulation. They threw everything into their albums: prog rock, opera, folk, thash, gospel,... They ran from rat to ogre, from king to car, from painting to spaceship. As a result they couldn't come up with a coherent album name. The first 2 albums were self-titled. The 4th and 5th were, very randomly, named after the Marx Brothers' films. Those albums were a beautiful mess - you couldn't frame Queen into any category with those. They were taking a big risk there - more than any other period. The financial risk. Breaking contract and spitting at Norman Sheffield with Death On Two Legs was a risk. Brian and Roger and John all abandoning their academic career was a risk (perhaps not much with Roger - he didn't like studying anyway). BoRhap and the over-expensive album was another risk. Not sticking to one genre was a risk. But the boys didn't wince. They were young and they felt invincible. On stage, they were hungry for audience. They played all of their potential, and Freddie were still very soft with the audience, you can almost hear a pleading in his voice. 1977-1982: From "News of the World" to pre-"Hot Space" They were at peak of their confidence. They knew they were the best. Songs like We Are the Champions or We Will Rock You are (maybe subconciously) announcement of their state. Or Don't Stop Me Now is one of the cheekiest, most joyous songs that Freddie has written. When asked in interview "Where is the modesty?", Roger quickly replied "There is none". The video of Bicycle Race was crazy and could only fit into that timeline. On stage, Freddie's attitude changed to "Fuck you all". He wouldn't have said that in 1974. He became cockier, and even acted like a divine (Thin Lizzy tour report, if we could believe that). 1982 - 1986: From "Hot Space" to "A Kind of Magic" The Hot Space failure pulled them back to earth, and made them feel vulnerable. But ideas had run out. When you feel vulnerable, but you no longer have creativity, or much of it, the solution is simple: you go mainstream. Synth pop in this case. On stage, it's different though: they still rocked it. The audience gave them a shoot in the arm. Freddie became more efficient in commanding the crowd. I don't think they developped an aversion to risk. They wouldn't go anywhere near Sun City if they thought of risk. All the Queen boys are rather adventurous. But of course ages dampen it a little bit. 1986-1991: The Miracle and Innuendo Both albums were recorded as Freddie's last goodbye. But actually Freddie was not ready to say goodbye yet in The Miracle (it's not an easy thing to come to term with), that's why the album wasn't ripe. Only until Innuendo you can feel that it was his swan song. |