| thomasquinn 32989 22.08.2011 08:32 |
Some people say there is no such thing as a Dutch cultural identity. I say there is - there is nothing quite as Dutch as uneducated moaning about completely fictional problems. Take the euro, for instance. In 2002, when it was introduced, many of the nation's entrepreneurs (barbers/hairdressers, cabs and the whole hotel/restaurant/café/drinking den industry taking the lead) took leave of their senses, and used the opportunity to raise their prices by anything from 10% to 110% (yes, some of them actually thought they could raise their prices by 110% without anyone noticing. Sadly, many did get away with it). Thus, people complained that the euro made everything more expensive. It is true - in 2002 it did. However, now we live in 2011. And still certain complete idiots - more than 60% of the population by some polls - is utterly convinced that the euro brought them nothing but misery and everything would've been better if we'd have kept the guilder. Disregarding for a moment the monetary weakness of the guilder and its more or less fixed-rate attachment to the German mark, these people should ask themselves a very simple question. The exchange rate of dollar/euro is now 69.3 euro-cents to the dollar. The exchange rate of the guilder to the euro was 2.20371 guilders to the euro. Can anyone really believe that an exchange rate of guilder to dollar of 1.53 guilders per dollar would ever really be possible? If anyone *can* really believe this, is it not disturbing that such people are allowed to drive, have children, vote, or even worse, stand for election? |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 22.08.2011 11:01 |
the euro is not worth the paper its printed on,gonna bring the whole of Europe to its knees due to the fact that if one of you goes bust you all go bust bailing them out,Greece,Ireland,Portugal,Spain and Italy proving the point. the only countries prospering from it are Germany and France as the now have full monetary control over mainland europe as everyone else owes them billions in loan payments so do as we say or else no bailout funds. thankfully that shite currency will NEVER be legal tender in the UK. if it doesnt have the Queen on it then bin it.. |
| thomasquinn 32989 22.08.2011 13:17 |
Sorry Jox, but you seem to be one of the people who just doesn't get it. There is no denying that no country has profited as much from the euro as Germany, but the entire eurozone has benefited. Export has never been as high, and all countries, Germany included, have benefited from a stable euro currency and the absence of exchange rates. I know for a fact that the Netherlands would not have been able to avoid a complete crash of the stock exchange and banking system in 2008 if we'd still have had the guilder. What you, like many others, fail to see is that the current crisis would have gone the way of the 1930s (i.e. protectionism resulting in a complete meltdown of all sectors except farming) if there hadn't been a shared currency. The euro has escaped the 2008 crisis more succesfully than the dollar *and* the pound. Your chauvinist remarks about "the Queen" aside, it would serve you well to remember what the exchange value euro-pound was in 2001, and what it is today: In December 2001, the pound was worth 1,64 euros. Now it's worth 1.14. The pound is heading for its doom much more steadily than the euro. |
| thomasquinn 32989 22.08.2011 13:20 |
Incidentally, Britain will go just as bust as all the rest of Europe if Italy should go the way of Greece. This has nothing to do with the euro, but is quite simply the result of international investment. British banks have as much Italian government bonds as other European countries do. |
| GratefulFan 22.08.2011 14:36 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: In December 2001, the pound was worth 1,64 euros. Now it's worth 1.14. The pound is heading for its doom much more steadily than the euro. ========================================== I know very little about the intricacies of the European economy, but in general economic terms a weak pound is hardly a sure sign of it's doom. Effects are generally mixed, and it's often a deliberate fiscal policy not to intervene in a weak or weakening currency precisely because of it's stimulating effect on the economy in some sectors. Canada crawled out of a dangerously weak financial situation throughout the 90s against a dollar that steadily and significantly declined the whole time, setting the stage for a comparatively strong economic position in recent years relative to the hits the rest of the world has taken. And a strong currency can come with it's own negatives, as we're certainly seeing right now in the Eurozone. So it's not quite as simple as you seem to want to make it. |
| catqueen 22.08.2011 15:53 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: Some people say there is no such thing as a Dutch cultural identity. I say there is - there is nothing quite as Dutch as uneducated moaning about completely fictional problems. I don't think thats just a Dutch thing, its an irish thing as well :/ |
| thomasquinn 32989 23.08.2011 04:45 |
GratefulFan wrote: ThomasQuinn wrote: In December 2001, the pound was worth 1,64 euros. Now it's worth 1.14. The pound is heading for its doom much more steadily than the euro. ========================================== I know very little about the intricacies of the European economy, but in general economic terms a weak pound is hardly a sure sign of it's doom. Effects are generally mixed, and it's often a deliberate fiscal policy not to intervene in a weak or weakening currency precisely because of it's stimulating effect on the economy in some sectors. Canada crawled out of a dangerously weak financial situation throughout the 90s against a dollar that steadily and significantly declined the whole time, setting the stage for a comparatively strong economic position in recent years relative to the hits the rest of the world has taken. And a strong currency can come with it's own negatives, as we're certainly seeing right now in the Eurozone. So it's not quite as simple as you seem to want to make it. ======= What you say is true, to an extent. A 'weak' currency means a boost for exports. However, it also means import prices rise. Because the UK's trade is largely with euro-countries, its exports will increase while its imports decrease. Since, like most western countries, the UK's largest economic sector by far is services and not commodities, life will get more expensive. In Canada, the example you cite, the export of raw materials has far more economic weight than in Britain. Since the eurozone has a disproportionally large internal trade, much like the U.S. used to, it is not really hampered by the high exchange rate as much. |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 23.08.2011 09:50 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: Incidentally, Britain will go just as bust as all the rest of Europe if Italy should go the way of Greece. This has nothing to do with the euro, but is quite simply the result of international investment. British banks have as much Italian government bonds as other European countries do. reply: but you [europe] will have to bail out these countries,the UK doesnt have to as we are not part of the "eurozone" we only helped Ireland as they are closest to our economy [plus the banks had invested heavily in Ireland] we dont have that problem if Italy goes tits up or Spain or Portugal,in fact we have made it known very clearly to germany and france that we have no intention of helping any other country in europe if they go bust and want more bail out money |
| GratefulFan 23.08.2011 13:01 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: What you say is true, to an extent. A 'weak' currency means a boost for exports. However, it also means import prices rise. Because the UK's trade is largely with euro-countries, its exports will increase while its imports decrease. Since, like most western countries, the UK's largest economic sector by far is services and not commodities, life will get more expensive. In Canada, the example you cite, the export of raw materials has far more economic weight than in Britain. Since the eurozone has a disproportionally large internal trade, much like the U.S. used to, it is not really hampered by the high exchange rate as much. ========================= Incoming tourism benefits from weak currency too. Regarding your initial point about the absurdity of the guilder appreciating against the dollar in the same ratio as the Euro: how can you be so sure? There are several first world economies that had comparatively weak currencies in 2002 that have appreciated in similar ratios. Relative to January 1, 2002, the USD retains only about 62% of it's value against both the current Euro and the current Canadian Dollar. It retains only about 50% of it's 2002 value against the Australian and New Zealand Dollars. A lot of this is about an unusually weak USD, and not superstar performances of various domestic currencies. |
| Djdownsy 23.08.2011 21:44 |
catqueen wrote: ThomasQuinn wrote: Some people say there is no such thing as a Dutch cultural identity. I say there is - there is nothing quite as Dutch as uneducated moaning about completely fictional problems. I don't think thats just a Dutch thing, its an irish thing as well :/ ---------------------------------------------- Couldn't have put it better myself, although, it's not just the euro we complain about, it's politics too. I'm not pretending I know everything about politics, but most don't realise they are keeping the country going. The media will happily print a story about the bad things, but it's rare you find they print a good one. |
| YourValentine 24.08.2011 01:33 |
The European Union is a huge step towards peace and freedom on our continent and it cannot be valued high enough. Only 25 years ago we still had nuclear weapons stationed in our country aimed at our neighbours and now we are all in the same economical and politcal "boat". However, we should not close our eyes to the dangers and disadvantages of the Eurozone: people say that Germany profits the most from the Euro but in fact it is only the German industry that profits - the workers and normal people lost income and social security in a way that was not regarded possible 20 years ago. Jobs move farther east where production costs are cheaper and while the industry globalises the unions lose power and influence. The problems in Greece showed glaringly that the people have to bail out speculators and banks with their tax money while the workers, children and pensionists in Greece lose everything. I am very much in favour of helping European states in trouble but I am against robbing the population in order to shift all the money to some French and German banks who are the root of all the problems. 40% of Spanish people under 25 are unemployed, just imagine that. Where is the future of the Eurozone when substantial portions of the population is left behind? It was not the goal of the European Union to impoverish the European population in order to make the richest one percent even richer but that is exactly what is happening now. We need more political power for the average citizens who do not look through the complex structures of the EU anymore and do not feel represented and heard. The fear - or "phobia" as you call it - is a natural consequence. |
| YourValentine 24.08.2011 01:48 |
As to England - I think they should not be in the EU at all. They do not have any interest in the European unity and do not want to be a part of it. Consequently, they should not have a vote, either. England is not even a part of the Schengen agreement. Personally, I would prefer to have England in the EU but as it is they should not be a member - it should be enough that we own all their car companies ;-) |