| GOATHEAD1985 23.07.2011 14:22 |
What a waste of a human being! Best wishes to her family and friends! |
| GinjaNinja 23.07.2011 15:43 |
Hmm... yet another addition to the "27 Club". |
| catqueen 23.07.2011 16:18 |
GinjaNinja wrote: Hmm... yet another addition to the "27 Club". Kinda weird that. |
| brENsKi 23.07.2011 17:02 |
i'd like you to explain how this ended up in this "queen" thread...stick it in personal it's not weird at all...i remember reading soemthing on this once...about stars adjustment to fame. from what i recall it's all to do with the five/six year period...once they are established and are introduced to all the stuff that comes with fame...drink drugs painkillers etc and also combined with their own lack of ability to cope with fame the co-incidence is that most (and there have been well over 50 film/rock stars) get their breakthru at about 20/21 so the critical five/six year thing hits at about 27 look at the list ...it's massive...and most of the 27-club who did themselves in, got their breakthru at about 20/21 |
| Thistle 23.07.2011 18:00 |
I can't help but think good riddance. I'm usually quite a sensitive guy, but she was one waste of time and space who had more chances than she deserved - hope Pete Doherty is next! |
| paulosham 24.07.2011 04:02 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I can't help but think good riddance. I'm usually quite a sensitive guy, but she was one waste of time and space who had more chances than she deserved - hope Pete Doherty is next! That's not sensitive at all. You are just going on what you've read in the shitty newspapers and seen on tabloid news reports |
| Thistle 24.07.2011 06:04 |
paulosham wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I can't help but think good riddance. I'm usually quite a sensitive guy, but she was one waste of time and space who had more chances than she deserved - hope Pete Doherty is next! That's not sensitive at all. You are just going on what you've read in the shitty newspapers and seen on tabloid news reports ===== ======================================================================================== I said *usually* and *but*. And how can you say I'm only going on what I've read and seen - surely the candid pics and plethora of footage showing her for what she was is a decent enough basis to form an opinion (which I am entitled to, btw). |
| jamster1111 24.07.2011 12:40 |
WHY THE FUCK IS THIS MENTIONED ON A QUEEN FORUM? Really guys? It's not like she was anybody important but just another one of those slutty performers who call themselves musicians and had drug problems. She was barely even contributing to society and was basically already dead anyways with her zombie-like appearances. Yes, my thoughts go out to her family and friends but still like GOATHEAD1985 said, she was a waste of a human being. What we really should be sad about is the 90 people killed in the Norway massacre, the 35 dead in the China train crash, and the death of Paul Watkin, one of the 9/12 lancers in Afghanistan. |
| queenUSA 24.07.2011 12:57 |
^^ Already the backlash about Amy! So much to say have you? Have you won 5 Grammys for music and an Ivor Novello Award for best contemporary song from the British Academy of Composers and Songwriters? She may have wasted her life away but there was talent there. I am not familiar with her music at all - but she did have some music acclaim in her short life. |
| lifetimefanofqueen 24.07.2011 13:00 |
jamster1111 wrote: WHY THE FUCK IS THIS MENTIONED ON A QUEEN FORUM? ====================== calm down dude, christ, how come some poor sod posts somthing in the wrong forum and he gets raped in the ass for it, i mean seriously it aint like he just drop kicked ur kid |
| GOATHEAD1985 24.07.2011 13:09 |
FUCK wished I never posted this discussion. All human life is a waste when cut short or just cut. The reason I posted this is I wanted pay my respects to her family and friends. I don't wanna start a bitch fest here but I remember when Micheal Jackson died and it came up a forum, granted MJ has done a lot more in music, but same with him such a waste. Doesnt matter how old, young or who you are, no one is better than anyone. Doesnt matter what she done she was someones daughter, loved one and a waste of talent. I am sorry if this discussion has caused upset to people my aim was just to pay Tributes and Respect. |
| Doga 24.07.2011 13:41 |
We only know about Amy for the newspapers and some webs. Have more memory boys, i don't know if you remember some persian dude called Freddie Mercury, i was so young, but i investigated, and at the time, the newspapers critisized him for his lifestyle, the sex and drug abuse, and the wild and vicious human being he was. The time flows and we learned that he was a very funny and generous man, a good friend and a good son, a cat lover and a very creative musician, but it wasn't notice at all. For this, and about Amy, we don't know why she was in drugs and her personal situation, people won't be happy only for be a good artist and have money. Have more respect with Amy, i really only know that she was a very good singer and a young women who died so soon, so R.I.P. Sorry for my english. |
| mooghead 24.07.2011 16:37 |
I will say what I have said on many messageboards in the last 24 hours. There a many, many people celebrating the death of a very talented 27 year old female right now. They have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of addiction and/or mental health issues. This could be your daughter one day. Hang your head in shame. |
| lifetimefanofqueen 24.07.2011 16:56 |
GOATHEAD1985 wrote: FUCK wished I never posted this discussion. All human life is a waste when cut short or just cut. The reason I posted this is I wanted pay my respects to her family and friends. I don't wanna start a bitch fest here but I remember when Micheal Jackson died and it came up a forum, granted MJ has done a lot more in music, but same with him such a waste. Doesnt matter how old, young or who you are, no one is better than anyone. Doesnt matter what she done she was someones daughter, loved one and a waste of talent. I am sorry if this discussion has caused upset to people my aim was just to pay Tributes and Respect. =================================== im on ur side on this mate, ppl here can be cunts at times and bitch over evrything here, pussy way of life, and i agree, maybe she did drugs, maybe she had a drinking problem, but she was still a human being, and if people are really going to get cunty over it just because its on their precious queen general discussion forum, fuck the lot of ya and shame on u, and GROW UP! |
| Dodger Taylor 25.07.2011 01:06 |
Nobody knows for sure yet what the cause of death was but there are all sorts of reasons for people to take drugs or alcohol.Its still a terrible tragedy for anyone to die at just 27. Maybe she was an addict but she wasnt a monster,she never killed anyone.She was just an unstable person who needed help. I recently went thru a bad spell of depression n it felt so bad Id happily have ended my life because of it.If she did end her own life she must of been in a terrible state of mind where that seemed the only option. Her music may not be totally to my taste but for anyone to die at that age is a tragedy. |
| scollins 25.07.2011 02:39 |
i agree she was a waste of space and a junkie, she was playing with fire and by god she got burned lol,, I hear george best and alex higgins are said to be over the moon, theve just heard theres a winehouse on its way to heaven :) |
| dysan 25.07.2011 04:22 |
From the BBC website: Sacha Baron Cohen to play Amy Winehouse. Baron Cohen had been on board for two years Mitch Winehouse said Ali G and Borat star Sacha Baron Cohen is to play Amy Winehouse in a film about her, the blues singer's father Mitch Winehouse has confirmed to the BBC. "We have Sacha Baron Cohen, which will probably be a shock to a lot of people, but he's been talking with us for a long time," Winehouse told the HARDtalk show. Frost/Nixon scribe Peter Morgan is writing the screenplay, he added. The film, which will focus on the period leading up to her car crash gig in Belgrade last month, will begin shooting next year. "I think we'll try and keep ourselves out of it as much as we can," Winehouse said. Baron Cohen had been "on this project since we started talking about it seriously with Peter Morgan a couple of years ago," he added. Winehouse Snr and long time friend Ex Libertine frontman Peter Doherty will oversee music featured in the film, which will include songs by Winehouse as a solo performer and also some of her famous duets, including her performance with Charlotte Church in 2007. Graham King, of GK Films, which is co-producing the movie along with Robert De Niro and Jane Rosenthal's production company Tribeca, said Winehouse was "a music brand all unto itself". "Amy Winehouse was an awe-inspiring performer so with Sacha in the starring role, coupled with Peter's screenplay and the support of her father, we have the perfect combination to tell the real story behind her success." Morgan, whose previous works include the Oscar-nominated screenplays for The Queen and Frost/Nixon, is already working on the script for the as-yet-untitled project. Winehouse's 90-minute appearance at the Belgrade concert in Serbia featured Valerie, Rehab, and Back In Black. It is considered to be one of the worst rock performances. The HARDtalk interview with Mitch Winehouse will be broadcast on BBC World News on Thursday 28 July and the BBC News Channel on Friday 29 September. |
| Dodger Taylor 25.07.2011 04:40 |
I guess Freddie Mercury deserved to get Aids then as he was a homosexual! |
| Senna 25.07.2011 04:45 |
Eh?...oh i get it, you're trying to be humourous. Maybe next time. |
| GOATHEAD1985 25.07.2011 06:54 |
There are some SICK FUCKS on here, get a life! |
| Rubbersuit 25.07.2011 07:54 |
The only person she ever hurt was herself. I don't get the hate. RIP Amy |
| Dodger Taylor 25.07.2011 08:15 |
My comment about Freddie Mercury is a go at all those here that think Amy Winehouse deserved to die due to being addicted to drugs.Aids is an illness as is addiction to drugs/alcohol.Neither deserved to die early. |
| rhyeking 25.07.2011 08:46 |
A few thoughts, not all are specifically about Winehouse... It's sad when anyone dies young, avoidable (drugs, alcohol, etc.) or not (terminal illness). I never really cared for Winehouse's music or the cult of celebrity that surrounded her. She had her fans, and that's fair. They feel the feel the loss they way we feel the loss of Freddie. Her music gave them something. Here's where it gets a little tricky, because nobody likes truth bombs in the midst of sorrow, but what I can't wrap my brain around is how any artist can be taken by surprise by the pressures of fame and fortune. In the modern era there are so many examples of musicians, actors and other celebrities getting swept up in it and meeting an untimely end. I often wonder when I hear a "woe is me" from a pop star if they had ever heard of stars like Joplin, Presley, Morrison or Cobain. I have to ask, what did they expect could happen? Just the good stuff (money, travel, independence)? I can sympathize, but only to a point. Everyone must take responsibility for their actions, be they the artist pressured by their own talent, the hordes of fans dying to know everything about them or the journalists who hound them endlessly. The artists who chose to cope with life via drugs and alcohol shouldn't be surprised if it all falls apart. The fans should understand that just because you like the music, it doesn't mean you're entitled to invade that person's life. Journalists need to remember that their job is to tell us what we *need* to know, not necessarily what we *want* to know (or what they think we want to know). |
| thomasquinn 32989 25.07.2011 08:56 |
It's too bad that she died. I was a little surprised that it happened so suddenly, but I can't say I didn't see this coming. However, I really can't understand the flood of ridiculous attempts at compliments - musicians comparing her voice to Billie Holiday's, with whom she had very little in common except a degree of "unpolishedness". Sure, she contributed to music - I didn't like her music, but that's really not very important - but the way they make it appear as if she was the most influential thing to happen in the world of music since the invention of polyphony is just ridiculous - and it makes a mockery out of her, which I don't really think she deserved. I think it is sad that the person died, and I especially feel sorry for her parents, but I don't think it's right to overstate her contribution to music. I hope I don't offend anyone with this, but I sincerely doubt whether her name will still be known fifty years from now. |
| Bo Alex 25.07.2011 11:50 |
RIP Amy One of the few real talented musicians of this century. |
| john bodega 25.07.2011 12:28 |
"Yes, my thoughts go out to her family and friends ...." No, they don't. You can't seriously be such a callous turd and actually expect such a trite phrase as 'my thoughts go out to...' to have any currency at all, can you? "...she was a waste of a human being" I think she contributed more to the economy than you or I have. That's just off the top of my head. "What we really should be sad about is the 90 people killed in the Norway massacre, the 35 dead in the China train crash, and the death of Paul Watkin, one of the 9/12 lancers in Afghanistan. " Oh, get real. If you can't appreciate the loss of one human life, who are you to lecture anyone on mass casualties? I probably shouldn't bother arguing with you; your post is that absurd that I have to wonder if you're just trolling. |
| Thistle 25.07.2011 12:47 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Oh, get real. If you can't appreciate the loss of one human life, who are you to lecture anyone on mass casualties? I probably shouldn't bother arguing with you; your post is that absurd that I have to wonder if you're just trolling. ============================================================================================= I know we're talking about this elsewhere, Zeb, but the thing is, he's right. The people killed in Norway, China etc over the last few days never asked to be taken away. That is a real tragedy. As for Winehouse, she knew what could happen, and wasted every chance she had. I bet if she had a near-death experience and was given a reprieve, she'd still be wasting herself away as we speak. |
| john bodega 25.07.2011 13:10 |
The issue of whether they wanted to die is kind of irrelevant. The post I was addressing was (and is) blatantly a dick post. No class, no understanding of human emotion, no real value placed on human life (1 death is still a sad thing even when you stack it up against larger tragedies - there is no real 'scale' of grief). People like this don't have any business writing about grieving when (in the space of a single sentence) they can go from 'my thoughts go out to ...' to 'waste of a human being'. I mean, I'm not making that up. The post is there for you to see. I will stick to what I said in the other post in saying that I probably shouldn't have bothered answering it. You can't fix some people, and it sounds like this poor sod has homework to do or something so I shall probably leave it alone. |
| GOATHEAD1985 26.07.2011 06:40 |
Zebonka12 is 'turd' and other comments aimed at me??? If you don't like the post, don't commment on it! |
| Pingfah 26.07.2011 06:49 |
GOATHEAD1985 wrote: Zebonka12 is 'turd' and other comments aimed at me??? If you don't like the post, don't commment on it! __________________________ I think you have somewhat missed the point of a messageboard. And really, you need to work out your anger issues. |
| rhyeking 26.07.2011 08:00 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: It's too bad that she died. I was a little surprised that it happened so suddenly, but I can't say I didn't see this coming. However, I really can't understand the flood of ridiculous attempts at compliments - musicians comparing her voice to Billie Holiday's, with whom she had very little in common except a degree of "unpolishedness". Sure, she contributed to music - I didn't like her music, but that's really not very important - but the way they make it appear as if she was the most influential thing to happen in the world of music since the invention of polyphony is just ridiculous - and it makes a mockery out of her, which I don't really think she deserved. I think it is sad that the person died, and I especially feel sorry for her parents, but I don't think it's right to overstate her contribution to music. I hope I don't offend anyone with this, but I sincerely doubt whether her name will still be known fifty years from now. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I'm of the opinion that rarely can an artist be truly influential early in their career. You'd have to be doing something quite new, yet listenable, in order to impact the music world enough to have other artists follow you. It takes a lot of the right circumstances, most beyond the control of the artist, to be merely successful, let alone influential. And a big key to influencing others is time, which is a test not many can stand against. There are a lot of great artists and songs from over the years, but we only remember the good ones; flashes in the pan simply fall away. I think it's far too early to call Winehouse influential. Popular? Yes. Talented? Sure, if her music appealed to you. The real telling point, touched on by Quinn, is the strange apparent dichotomy of saying a band or artist is both "the next [so-and-so]" and "hugely influential." How can that work, exactly? If you sound like somebody else, how can you be influencing people with that sound (except maybe inspiring them to listen to whomever it is you sound like). The influence comes later. The Beatles started off as a rhythm and blues combo, with about 50% original material (heavily based on the music they liked) and 50% covers. Yeah, they sounded great in the early days, but their "influential" output wouldn't come until the Rubber Soul and Revolver era and it would more or less remain so until they broke up. Back to Winehouse... This is my ignorance of her output talking, but what exactly are her fans and critics saying was so groundbreaking? I got the gist that her addictions and rehab were the crux of her fame and infamy. Those are hardly new things to write songs about, even if they're deeply personal. Musicians writing about the ill-effects of drugs goes back decades, along with writing about the after-effects. |
| john bodega 26.07.2011 10:13 |
"Zebonka12 is 'turd' and other comments aimed at me???" Nope, it was aimed at someone else. "If you don't like the post, don't commment on it!" Classically stupid comment, this one. |
| lifetimefanofqueen 26.07.2011 11:30 |
GOATHEAD1985 wrote: If you don't like the post, don't commment on it! ==================== may i just say i cant remember how many times ive had to say that too lol |
| GratefulFan 26.07.2011 12:16 |
Amy was credited for the resurgence of a genre, with a modern twist, and for the wave of female artists that followed in a similar vein. Somewhat Ironically, it was her absence due to substance abuse that opened the way in part for the other women to supply the demand she has created. I don't think there is any question that she's had an influence on the music industry, or any question that she will be remembered in 50 years. I think how one view's her addictions or addiction in general depends in part on how capable you are of stepping outside your own direct experience. In appreciating what people who use anything compulsively - alcohol, drugs, sex, food, gambling, other - do to their bodies and lives and families I think you have to appreciate that it's not "a choice" in the commonly understood sense of the world. Almost nobody elects to destroy themselves and the people they love as a reasoned choice. There are personality structures that churn up a staggering amount of pain and self doubt and self hatred and the pressure to anesthetize that away one way or another is enormous. Addicts are weak, but I think it's often weakness against an overwhelming emotional deluge that can take more years to wrestle down cognitively than some addicts get. Perfectionism and it's attendant vulnerability to black and white thinking can lock addicts obsessively in all or nothing patterns of destructive behaviour that I imagine are experienced by the addict as something like centrifugal force, but mystify and frustrate loved ones who see 'stepping off' as wholly a matter of wanting to enough. Indeed so many of the glimpses of brilliance on the 'Back to Black' album were beautiful, visceral reflections of her obsessive love for her codependent boyfriend/husband Blake. Her voice was as soulful as I've heard, capable of conveying deep measures of pain, regret, sensuality and beauty all at once in a handful of notes. That doesn't spring from an inner world defined by either ease or happiness, and I am a bit baffled as to just what perch people are judging her from. Her mother talked about her always having been a difficult and challenging child who couldn't seem to anticipate or avoid consequences even as a young girl. In general I think we all give ourselves too much credit for who we are as people. We're not much more than the sum of things that have happened *to* us, from a genetic lot at birth to a series of shaping events that we usually have little control over. If you think Amy Winehouse led a shitty and wasteful life then I think you should be glad you weren't Amy Winehouse. People who don't hear greatness in her surely have different ears than I. To me she was a true musician whose voice was her irrevocable destiny, and I don't think she sought or anticipated the fame or infamy that came later. She was one of the few artists for whom deep talent and commercial success aligned and as we know from so many conflicted artists that came before her that is not always an easy path. Her gift was bigger and stronger than she was, and that is enormously sad. I'll always remember her performance at the 2007 Mercury Prize awards for the juxtaposition of her talent and her raw ordinariness and lack of ease as a human being. The difference in Amy Winehouse behind the microphone and away from it that day now seems heartbreaking and prescient. And a stripped down version of Valerie that i think is my favourite. It was my not infrequent desire to hear this take that led to my lucky last run at her music the day before she died. One person said of Amy that where other artists needed 40,000 dollars worth of equipment to know how they wanted to sound, she knew how she wanted to sound standing on top of a piano. http://youtu.be/Q6JRttxTBC8 |
| Pingfah 26.07.2011 12:43 |
lifetimefanofqueen wrote: GOATHEAD1985 wrote: If you don't like the post, don't commment on it! ==================== may i just say i cant remember how many times ive had to say that too lol ___________________ And I'm sure anyone with a brain has dutifully ignored you. Here's a better idea, if you don't want your dumbass posts to be replied to, don't write dumbass posts. |
| lifetimefanofqueen 26.07.2011 15:08 |
Pingfah wrote: lifetimefanofqueen wrote: GOATHEAD1985 wrote: If you don't like the post, don't commment on it! ==================== may i just say i cant remember how many times ive had to say that too lol ___________________ And I'm sure anyone with a brain has dutifully ignored you. Here's a better idea, if you don't want your dumbass posts to be replied to, don't write dumbass posts. ============================ when was the last time a wrote a dumb ass post? how bout this mate, DONT BE A CUNT! seriously the lot of u snap at people for fucking breathing, why dont the lot of you just LIGTEN UP! would it kill you to be kind to people and not post cunty comments at people? |
| dysan 26.07.2011 15:18 |
I don't mind sharing here, but i met her a couple of time and told her mangement / hangers on that she should be taken care of. Of course, that idea was met with all sorts of name calling and abuse. My only sadness is that those same people will make money out of her demise. I wasn't a fan by any stretch, but she seemed like a nice person. |
| GOATHEAD1985 26.07.2011 15:30 |
lifetimefanofqueen: Cheers mate, least someone has got a brain! Zebonkai12 and Pingfah: Why get personal??? I havent put you pair down!!! Please get over it, you pair sound like a sad bunch of cunts who rather than enjoy life would rather put me down for a small fuck up (this post on the wrong section) on this website. By the way Im 26, but i suggest you two go back school (thats if you dickheads ever did went). So please if you dont have anything constructive to say, don't say it, you pair over over opinionated, small minded, little pricks. Thank You Very Much |
| lifetimefanofqueen 26.07.2011 15:45 |
GOATHEAD1985 wrote: lifetimefanofqueen: Cheers mate, least someone has got a brain! Zebonkai12 and Pingfah: Why get personal??? I havent put you pair down!!! Please get over it, you pair sound like a sad bunch of cunts who rather than enjoy life would rather put me down for a small fuck up (this post on the wrong section) on this website. By the way Im 26, but i suggest you two go back school (thats if you dickheads ever did went). So please if you dont have anything constructive to say, don't say it, you pair over over opinionated, small minded, little pricks. Thank You Very Much ========================== no dude, im on your side ! |
| catqueen 26.07.2011 16:44 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: Zebonka12 wrote: Oh, get real. If you can't appreciate the loss of one human life, who are you to lecture anyone on mass casualties? I probably shouldn't bother arguing with you; your post is that absurd that I have to wonder if you're just trolling. ============================================================================================= I know we're talking about this elsewhere, Zeb, but the thing is, he's right. The people killed in Norway, China etc over the last few days never asked to be taken away. That is a real tragedy. As for Winehouse, she knew what could happen, and wasted every chance she had. I bet if she had a near-death experience and was given a reprieve, she'd still be wasting herself away as we speak. How do u know that? And one life cannot be worth less then another life. She had problems, we all do... We have all done something stupid in our lives, spectacularly stupid, why do we think we are so great that we can judge. The tragedy is not less that Amy Winehouse died then that any other person died. But there is also tragedy in the life of a young girl under massive pressure, who was driven to extremes, and not supported in a way that she could accept. And that isnt to diss staff in rehab centres or anything, but obviously help wasn't there. It isn't necessarily the 'fault' of anyone, or even anything that could be prevented, because we do not know what is in someone else, and we don't know how best to approach them, sometimes there just isn't a way to help someone. BUT that does not make it any less tragic that her life was tough, that she had the issues she had, or that she died. |
| Pingfah 26.07.2011 17:43 |
GOATHEAD, I think I misunderstood your original post, I thought that you were calling her a waste of a human being (i.e.she didn't deserve to be born) and then trying to be funny by giving your respects, which would be an insulting thing to say about somebody. I see that you meant it was a waste of her life, not that she was a waste of a person, sorry for the misunderstanding. I take no pleasure in the death of anybody. And lifetimefanofqueen, I was only rude to you because I thought you were standing up for an opinon I had misconstrued as being insulting. Apologies to you as well. |
| Thistle 26.07.2011 19:33 |
catqueen wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: Zebonka12 wrote: Oh, get real. If you can't appreciate the loss of one human life, who are you to lecture anyone on mass casualties? I probably shouldn't bother arguing with you; your post is that absurd that I have to wonder if you're just trolling. ============================================================================================= I know we're talking about this elsewhere, Zeb, but the thing is, he's right. The people killed in Norway, China etc over the last few days never asked to be taken away. That is a real tragedy. As for Winehouse, she knew what could happen, and wasted every chance she had. I bet if she had a near-death experience and was given a reprieve, she'd still be wasting herself away as we speak. How do u know that? And one life cannot be worth less then another life. She had problems, we all do... We have all done something stupid in our lives, spectacularly stupid, why do we think we are so great that we can judge. The tragedy is not less that Amy Winehouse died then that any other person died. But there is also tragedy in the life of a young girl under massive pressure, who was driven to extremes, and not supported in a way that she could accept. And that isnt to diss staff in rehab centres or anything, but obviously help wasn't there. It isn't necessarily the 'fault' of anyone, or even anything that could be prevented, because we do not know what is in someone else, and we don't know how best to approach them, sometimes there just isn't a way to help someone. BUT that does not make it any less tragic that her life was tough, that she had the issues she had, or that she died. ============================================================================================= I'm sorry, but I just can't help the way I feel, and I don't see how death of someone who blatantly showed no respect for her own body, pumping it full of shit she shouldn't be touching, is a "tragedy". She knew that one day it could happen, and it did. As for the people in Norway and China, that *really* is a tragedy. You can say that one human life is no more important than any other, or than one death is just as sad as another until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, and always will be, it is her own fault, and that is not tragic. A life taken away by someone else, or through an accident IS tragic. |
| GratefulFan 26.07.2011 22:52 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I'm sorry, but I just can't help the way I feel, and I don't see how death of someone who blatantly showed no respect for her own body, pumping it full of shit she shouldn't be touching, is a "tragedy". She knew that one day it could happen, and it did. As for the people in Norway and China, that *really* is a tragedy. You can say that one human life is no more important than any other, or than one death is just as sad as another until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, and always will be, it is her own fault, and that is not tragic. A life taken away by someone else, or through an accident IS tragic. How much self control did you have to exercise to prevent yourself from, say, going on a heroin binge last weekend? Yeah, me too. None. Not an ounce. You and I are not doing anything hard by being clean and sober. For the addict, it's somewhere between difficult and excruciating. I think we've all failed at things that are difficult, or at least had to take a few runs at them. If she ran out of time, that is tragic. If she effectively committed suicide, which would be my guess, that's even more tragic. Tough love and a necessarily hard line don't preclude empathy. To me, 'fault' is just all wrong here. |
| john bodega 27.07.2011 00:59 |
"Why get personal??? I havent put you pair down!!!" Hold on a fucking minute - you're responding to posts that were not aimed at you. Fucking get a clue already. |
| Thistle 27.07.2011 08:21 |
GratefulFan wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I'm sorry, but I just can't help the way I feel, and I don't see how death of someone who blatantly showed no respect for her own body, pumping it full of shit she shouldn't be touching, is a "tragedy". She knew that one day it could happen, and it did. As for the people in Norway and China, that *really* is a tragedy. You can say that one human life is no more important than any other, or than one death is just as sad as another until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, and always will be, it is her own fault, and that is not tragic. A life taken away by someone else, or through an accident IS tragic. How much self control did you have to exercise to prevent yourself from, say, going on a heroin binge last weekend? Yeah, me too. None. Not an ounce. You and I are not doing anything hard by being clean and sober. For the addict, it's somewhere between difficult and excruciating. I think we've all failed at things that are difficult, or at least had to take a few runs at them. If she ran out of time, that is tragic. If she effectively committed suicide, which would be my guess, that's even more tragic. Tough love and a necessarily hard line don't preclude empathy. To me, 'fault' is just all wrong here. ============================================================================================= If it's not hard being clean and sober, why was she a junkie? Answer = because she was foolish enough to start it. If she hadn't started, there'd be nothing to be hooked to and she wouldn't be a junkie. As for suicide being a "tragedy" - HELL NO, it's just fucking selfish, and if that's what she did, it just further reiterates that she had no respect for (a) herself (b) her family and (c) her fans. I have said in another similar thread that I have lived with an addict, and also around them. I will now go into the fact that I have also lost friends to an addiction, and two family members to suicide. Did I mourn? No! They were just selfish bastards, and it's the "softly softly" pandering to them approach that lets them think they can do what they want. |
| TyphoonTip 27.07.2011 10:19 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: GratefulFan wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I'm sorry, but I just can't help the way I feel, and I don't see how death of someone who blatantly showed no respect for her own body, pumping it full of shit she shouldn't be touching, is a "tragedy". She knew that one day it could happen, and it did. As for the people in Norway and China, that *really* is a tragedy. You can say that one human life is no more important than any other, or than one death is just as sad as another until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, and always will be, it is her own fault, and that is not tragic. A life taken away by someone else, or through an accident IS tragic. How much self control did you have to exercise to prevent yourself from, say, going on a heroin binge last weekend? Yeah, me too. None. Not an ounce. You and I are not doing anything hard by being clean and sober. For the addict, it's somewhere between difficult and excruciating. I think we've all failed at things that are difficult, or at least had to take a few runs at them. If she ran out of time, that is tragic. If she effectively committed suicide, which would be my guess, that's even more tragic. Tough love and a necessarily hard line don't preclude empathy. To me, 'fault' is just all wrong here. ============================================================================================= If it's not hard being clean and sober, why was she a junkie? Answer = because she was foolish enough to start it. If she hadn't started, there'd be nothing to be hooked to and she wouldn't be a junkie. As for suicide being a "tragedy" - HELL NO, it's just fucking selfish, and if that's what she did, it just further reiterates that she had no respect for (a) herself (b) her family and (c) her fans. I have said in another similar thread that I have lived with an addict, and also around them. I will now go into the fact that I have also lost friends to an addiction, and two family members to suicide. Did I mourn? No! They were just selfish bastards, and it's the "softly softly" pandering to them approach that lets them think they can do what they want. _________________________ Let's extend that logic .....Freddie was promiscuous during a time when he would've been aware of the risks. AIDS was far from a secret in the gay community in the early to mid 80's. So he knew what was possible; he happened to contract HIV; his own fault. ...Clearly no mourning required. Simple. |
| daniel penfold 27.07.2011 10:43 |
Why did she have to die i did not whant here to die i dont hink eney one did they |
| Thistle 27.07.2011 11:23 |
TyphoonTip wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: GratefulFan wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I'm sorry, but I just can't help the way I feel, and I don't see how death of someone who blatantly showed no respect for her own body, pumping it full of shit she shouldn't be touching, is a "tragedy". She knew that one day it could happen, and it did. As for the people in Norway and China, that *really* is a tragedy. You can say that one human life is no more important than any other, or than one death is just as sad as another until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, and always will be, it is her own fault, and that is not tragic. A life taken away by someone else, or through an accident IS tragic. How much self control did you have to exercise to prevent yourself from, say, going on a heroin binge last weekend? Yeah, me too. None. Not an ounce. You and I are not doing anything hard by being clean and sober. For the addict, it's somewhere between difficult and excruciating. I think we've all failed at things that are difficult, or at least had to take a few runs at them. If she ran out of time, that is tragic. If she effectively committed suicide, which would be my guess, that's even more tragic. Tough love and a necessarily hard line don't preclude empathy. To me, 'fault' is just all wrong here. ============================================================================================= If it's not hard being clean and sober, why was she a junkie? Answer = because she was foolish enough to start it. If she hadn't started, there'd be nothing to be hooked to and she wouldn't be a junkie. As for suicide being a "tragedy" - HELL NO, it's just fucking selfish, and if that's what she did, it just further reiterates that she had no respect for (a) herself (b) her family and (c) her fans. I have said in another similar thread that I have lived with an addict, and also around them. I will now go into the fact that I have also lost friends to an addiction, and two family members to suicide. Did I mourn? No! They were just selfish bastards, and it's the "softly softly" pandering to them approach that lets them think they can do what they want. _________________________ Let's extend that logic .....Freddie was promiscuous during a time when he would've been aware of the risks. AIDS was far from a secret in the gay community in the early to mid 80's. So he knew what was possible; he happened to contract HIV; his own fault. ...Clearly no mourning required. Simple. ============================================================================================= Yep, at the end of the day, it was Freddie's fault he died. I have never denied that. However, we can only speculate about when Freddie caught HIV. There are many stories surrounding it, but are mere speculation - there is no concrete, official statement of when, where or even who. So let's think about it this way - prior to 1996, scientists estimated that it would take around 10 years for HIV to become AIDS. That would possibly mean Freddie contracted it around 1981, at least. But assuming that there is a couple of years between AIDS and death, this would take him back to the late 1970s. Therefore, he would have contracted it at a time that the possible consequences of one man having unprotected sex with another man was unknown. Just a theory, I know, but humour me. If that was the case, then it was too late for Freddie to do much about it. As for Winehouse..... |
| rhyeking 27.07.2011 12:57 |
This is an incredibly touchy subject for people, addiction, and we're going to get the gamut of opinions, ranging from extremely selfless and empathetic to unsympathetic and hard-lined. I think most people land reasonably in the middle, where we sympathize, but also question the choices the person made, whether it's a stranger, a celebrity, friend or family member. Assisting addicts to recover and get their lives together is just as tricky. Yes, there are programs, but many question their effectiveness and their philosophies. Family and friends often feel helpless when they perceive that the addict is unable to help themselves. Add to that the anger and mistrust if they've been hurt by the addict's actions. Most people agree that the addict has to want help before it can be effectively given. It might take hitting rock bottom to get there. The biggest thing is that, for whatever reason, addicts may not have the best coping mechanisms to deal with what goes on in their live. What seems hard to us seems insurmountable to them. Dealing with a loss, dealing with pressures, taking control...all are reasons to withdraw and focus on the things that help them escape. A recovering addict has to learn how to cope with relying on the thing they're addicted to. The lack of coping skills often leads to the dependency, but there's no one answer to why this develops (or doesn't develop). Sometimes it's external, with terrible things happening to the person. Sometimes it's the personality of the person, leading them to make poor decisions in life. My feelings, as expressed earlier, are that both influences still require choice and responsibility on the part of the person in how they deal with it. I know abuse victims who have their life together and are able to deal with what happened. And I've known addicts who recover and lead productive lives. I don't believe in generalizing *all* addiction as beyond the control of the addict and absolving the addict of any responsibility for their actions. |
| br5946 27.07.2011 13:09 |
I never, EVER cared for Winehouse's quote - music - end quote, and her version of Valerie drove me nuts. It was her only hit and it was a cover of another song!!! It is a bit depressing when a life is lost, but I don't feel ANY remorse for her. I see her death as one less '15 minutes of fame' star polluting the music scene. But let's face it, music went down the lavatory as soon as the Spice Girls formed. One negative side to Winehouse's death is her addition to the 27 Club. She doesn't deserve to be there alongside such legends as Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix. It says her cause of death has yet to be determined, but I bet it was some crazy junkie overdose. The main difference between Winehouse and the legends is that the legends are rock gods, she was a plastic and manufactured pop star. If she'd held on for another eight weeks... she'd be 28. |
| Thistle 27.07.2011 13:41 |
br5946 wrote: I never, EVER cared for Winehouse's quote - music - end quote, and her version of Valerie drove me nuts. It was her only hit and it was a cover of another song!!! It is a bit depressing when a life is lost, but I don't feel ANY remorse for her. I see her death as one less '15 minutes of fame' star polluting the music scene. But let's face it, music went down the lavatory as soon as the Spice Girls formed. One negative side to Winehouse's death is her addition to the 27 Club. She doesn't deserve to be there alongside such legends as Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix. It says her cause of death has yet to be determined, but I bet it was some crazy junkie overdose. The main difference between Winehouse and the legends is that the legends are rock gods, she was a plastic and manufactured pop star. If she'd held on for another eight weeks... she'd be 28. ============================================================================================= Now THAT is twisted logic. The 3 "gods" you refer to were all as bad as Winehouse. You see it's not the music that's relevant. It's the manner in which they wasted themselves. |
| daniel penfold 28.07.2011 03:16 |
that was a bitt up steing |
| TyphoonTip 28.07.2011 05:23 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: TyphoonTip wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: GratefulFan wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I'm sorry, but I just can't help the way I feel, and I don't see how death of someone who blatantly showed no respect for her own body, pumping it full of shit she shouldn't be touching, is a "tragedy". She knew that one day it could happen, and it did. As for the people in Norway and China, that *really* is a tragedy. You can say that one human life is no more important than any other, or than one death is just as sad as another until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, and always will be, it is her own fault, and that is not tragic. A life taken away by someone else, or through an accident IS tragic. How much self control did you have to exercise to prevent yourself from, say, going on a heroin binge last weekend? Yeah, me too. None. Not an ounce. You and I are not doing anything hard by being clean and sober. For the addict, it's somewhere between difficult and excruciating. I think we've all failed at things that are difficult, or at least had to take a few runs at them. If she ran out of time, that is tragic. If she effectively committed suicide, which would be my guess, that's even more tragic. Tough love and a necessarily hard line don't preclude empathy. To me, 'fault' is just all wrong here. ============================================================================================= If it's not hard being clean and sober, why was she a junkie? Answer = because she was foolish enough to start it. If she hadn't started, there'd be nothing to be hooked to and she wouldn't be a junkie. As for suicide being a "tragedy" - HELL NO, it's just fucking selfish, and if that's what she did, it just further reiterates that she had no respect for (a) herself (b) her family and (c) her fans. I have said in another similar thread that I have lived with an addict, and also around them. I will now go into the fact that I have also lost friends to an addiction, and two family members to suicide. Did I mourn? No! They were just selfish bastards, and it's the "softly softly" pandering to them approach that lets them think they can do what they want. _________________________ Let's extend that logic .....Freddie was promiscuous during a time when he would've been aware of the risks. AIDS was far from a secret in the gay community in the early to mid 80's. So he knew what was possible; he happened to contract HIV; his own fault. ...Clearly no mourning required. Simple. ============================================================================================= Yep, at the end of the day, it was Freddie's fault he died. I have never denied that. However, we can only speculate about when Freddie caught HIV. There are many stories surrounding it, but are mere speculation - there is no concrete, official statement of when, where or even who. So let's think about it this way - prior to 1996, scientists estimated that it would take around 10 years for HIV to become AIDS. That would possibly mean Freddie contracted it around 1981, at least. But assuming that there is a couple of years between AIDS and death, this would take him back to the late 1970s. Therefore, he would have contracted it at a time that the possible consequences of one man having unprotected sex with another man was unknown. Just a theory, I know, but humour me. If that was the case, then it was too late for Freddie to do much about it. As for Winehouse..... ________________________________ Well I guess I could humour you, that is if your argument held any water. Your ridiculous alternate Freddie scenario seems to contradict your own philosophy. Say he did contract HIV in 1978-9, unlikely but possible. That would mean one of two things: 1) He didn't know he had HIV, but kept on sleeping around during the early 80's when he absolutely would have known he was dramatically increasing his risk of contracting it. Or; 2) He knew very early on and continued to sleep around, putting others at serious risk. Either way, from your perspective, there is no way to remove 'fault' from Freddie's actions. Now for the extension of your logic that you conveniently didn't address. Given that we can't remove 'fault' from Freddie, that means he isn't worthy of being mourned or deserving of any sympathy. His actions were risky, it cost him his life. Exactly the same could be said for Winehouse. I find it disturbing that someone could be so cold as to separate who is deserving of sympathy and grief, by virtue of mistakes they made during their life, with no regard to the complexities of why those mistakes may have been made. Unfortunately your tightly reigned definition of 'tragedy' reveals you to be one callous individual. |
| john bodega 28.07.2011 11:46 |
Hendrix and Winehouse in the same basket .... er, sure. If you're mental. |
| Isle0fRed 28.07.2011 19:15 |
br5946 wrote: I never, EVER cared for Winehouse's quote - music - end quote, cool, thats YOUR opinion. But to others she was an inspiration to a generation. "...and her version of Valerie drove me nuts." again, that is YOUR opinion "...It was her only hit and it was a cover of another song!!!" actully, Amy Winehouse's version of The Zutons's song Valerie isn't a cover by her, it's a cover by Mark Ronson, it just happens to feature Amy on lead vocals. Get your facts right. secondly it wasn't her only hit, her Back to Black spawned 6 singles alone, many of which are still played on the radio and tv still to this date. She also wrote her own songs. "But let's face it, music went down the lavatory as soon as the Spice Girls formed" Really, thats the turning point of music? What you just said there is nothing new, in fact, every generation would say that about the current musical craze. A generation who grew up with in the 50s or 60s would generally hate music in the 70s, 80s 90s etc. That idea has even been carried over in films, and books today. "One negative side to Winehouse's death is her addition to the 27 Club. She doesn't deserve to be there alongside such legends as Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix" Almost everyone in that club has died from drug related causes. So why not place her in that club "The main difference between Winehouse and the legends is that the legends are rock gods, she was a plastic and manufactured pop star" Nope, the term legend is word describing a figure of greatness and/or inspiration down through the generations. She wasn't at all manufactured. Give me proof, stating she was. |
| Thistle 28.07.2011 19:30 |
TyphoonTip wrote: ......................................... I find it disturbing that someone could be so cold as to separate who is deserving of sympathy and grief, by virtue of mistakes they made during their life, with no regard to the complexities of why those mistakes may have been made. Unfortunately your tightly reigned definition of 'tragedy' reveals you to be one callous individual. ============================================================================================= I'm afraid you don't understand the complexities of why I am a "callous" individual. Maybe something made me that way? Perhaps it was being shat on by addicts and alcoholics? Maybe there comes a point in life when they suck any feeling you may have for them right out of you. It's easy to let your guard down and then be taken advantage of, and also easy to go from being sympathetic to feeling pissed off. I'm afraid that's human nature. Like I say, I can't help the way I feel. And at a time where I felt I was being shat upon, I found comfort in finding out about the music of Queen. It became a passion. Freddie became a hero. That was a positive, so I'm naturally going to look at Freddie in a more positive way - like I say, it's human nature. Negative experiences can often breed contempt - positive experiences the opposite. And I also think that the fact that we KNOW just how horrible, painful and drawn-out Freddie's death was, yet he still battled to make some output, makes his story touching - even if deep down we know it's the consequence of stupid actions. Anyone with a heart will feel something. Same for Winehouse. Of course she deserves to be mourned, and it was completely unfair of me to suggest otherwise. But because she happened to be an addict who was always shit-faced, and similar to a group of folk which have affected my life in a negative way, it's just nature to forget that she was a human being and be pissed off that she was so stupid and wasted every chance she had. I know what you are saying is true, and maybe I am a hypocrite. But are you saying you've *never* felt contempt towards someone, or a group of people that act in a similar way? Look, at the end of the day, we are BOTH arguing about something neither of us actually knows the whole story about. It's all speculation, theory and generalisation. Under the rubble, it's just your opinion/feelings and mine, and we are both entitled to that without getting personal. I hope that this strong clash in opinions will not breed contempt between us? :) |
| Thistle 03.08.2011 19:14 |
I acted like a real dick over my Winehouse comments. Addicts sure do rile me, but I could've said it a bit better, and show a little compassion too...and I've kinda been feelin' an attack of the guilts. To anyone I've offended, sorry :) |
| TyphoonTip 03.08.2011 20:36 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: I acted like a real dick over my Winehouse comments. Addicts sure do rile me, but I could've said it a bit better, and show a little compassion too...and I've kinda been feelin' an attack of the guilts. To anyone I've offended, sorry :) ___________________________ No problem. It shows a lot of character to admit you could've approached things differently. Many would have just left it alone. I guess everyone (me included) have particular things that annoy them to such an extent that it's hard to get perspective, and before you know it, you say or do something you regret. If addiction is that for you, then it's completely understandable. No harm done from my end. Anyway, how could I be anything but forgiving on a day when I found a West German first press (target) CD of NOTW. Bugger me if it isn't the best freakin' thing I've ever heard. |
| GratefulFan 04.08.2011 00:45 |
Hey I'm sorry you were feeling bad about some of your comments Thistleboy. Don't sweat it at all. Your thoughts were appropriate in terms of how addicts affect those around them, and in terms of the physical/mental/emotional distance friends and familes often have to impose to prevent the harm from spreading further into their own lives. I think where people differed with you it was in separating those sad realities from the fundamental worth of the human being. There are a tremendous number of recovered addicts who are exceptional people on many fronts. Off the top of my head I can think of Robert Downey Jr. (drugs), Warren Zevon (alcohol), Anthony Hopkins (alcohol), Elton John (alcohol), James Taylor (heroin), and endless others. An addict will stop when being an addict finally becomes more painful than facing themselves sober, which is an immensely sad thought when you see how dark it gets for some people. |
| GratefulFan 04.08.2011 00:55 |
Speaking of Zevon, I've been on a major Warren kick as of late and until yesterday I had thought I had lost the CD with what is probably my favourite song of his. I found it, and listened to it about three times in a row. Kind of like a fix! Ha ha. Anyway, the favourite song is about time he spent in Los Angeles in the final stages of his alcholism in the period before he quit. Amazing song. A desperate man hearing hymns in the air conditioner hum is just such a brilliant image. When he's good, he's so good. |
| GratefulFan 04.08.2011 00:55 |
Double post via QZ ghost. |
| Thistle 04.08.2011 09:53 |
Thanks guys, it's appreciated :) |