| cmsdrums 24.06.2011 11:39 |
I've received my copy of Jazz today (see some comments on the bonus tracks here: link The sleeve notes say that the bass drum for 'Jealousy' has been restored (by Josh McCrae) having bizarrely never been present in all previous versions of Jazz! It really does sound great, and I really like the accented beats Roger plays - HOWEVER I think they've missed one beat at about 1 min 59 seconds - now, it COULD be that Roger didn't play that single beat at that part even though he plays it on all other comporable parts on the song, but I don't think so! Once you've had a listen, let me know!!! |
| brians wig 24.06.2011 18:41 |
Bloody hell. Some lucky people get them early.... I have to say though, that if the drum was missed off on the album originally, then it shouldn't be present on the remaster. I'd have expected this version to be the one on Deep Cuts 2.... |
| TyphoonTip 24.06.2011 23:17 |
Restored kick? So the track was remixed? If that is the case, then that's poor form. Sure have it as a bonus track, but leave the album the way it is. I would want a unequivocally plausible explanation as to why (some) kicks were left out in the first place. It's impossible to believe that Freddie (being the perfectionist that he clearly was) would accidental leave them out. Seems completely likely it was an artistic decision. It's not like the entire kick track is missing. Perhaps he wanted (and I think achieved) a sparse sounding verse, which brilliantly draws more attention to John's amazing bass lines. The fact that it's his track, and we can't ask him why they (the kicks) are not present, it should be left alone when in the context of the album. |
| Soundfreak 25.06.2011 04:51 |
I haven't heard it so far, but the answer may be found in the rules of the vinyl age. Those who have "Jazz" in vinyl form can even see in "Mustapha" that the groove needs more space during the louder stereo parts. Same goes for a kick drum. And as the album is packed with songs it may have had something to do with that. A Kick drum in "Jealousy" might have lead to the consequence, that another song had to be removed or the whole album had to be mastered on a lower level leading to a weaker and poorer sound. |
| TyphoonTip 25.06.2011 05:58 |
Soundfreak wrote: I haven't heard it so far, but the answer may be found in the rules of the vinyl age. Those who have "Jazz" in vinyl form can even see in "Mustapha" that the groove needs more space during the louder stereo parts. Same goes for a kick drum. And as the album is packed with songs it may have had something to do with that. A Kick drum in "Jealousy" might have lead to the consequence, that another song had to be removed or the whole album had to be mastered on a lower level leading to a weaker and poorer sound. ______ If that were true, then why is the kick track clearly still present in other parts of the song? It seems more likely to be strategic artistic removal. Getting rid of the occasional kick during the verses would have little to no effect in creating more physical space on a vinyl press. Doesn't ring true for mine. I'll say it again, should have been left alone. |
| cmsdrums 25.06.2011 08:31 |
Having listened to it over again, I'm convinced that this beat has been missed out in error. It stood out to me on first play, even when I wasn't obviously listening out expecting anything to missing from the mix. If this is the case, then, fucking hell, who has the final clearance on these things, and can I have the job instead please???? Greg or Gary - can you provide some info on exactly what is meant by the kick drum being ' restored' for this version of Jealousy? The track doesn't sound fully remixed in total to me, so has what Roger originally played been put back into the mix somehow as a sample, or from the original correct bass drum take on the multitracks? |
| brians wig 25.06.2011 09:07 |
The other possibility is that the kick drum was taken out in the first place because someone realised at the last minute that Roger HAD missed out a drum beat... Either way, it should NOT have been added back in to the album version, but I have no objections to it being a bonus track. |
| A Word In Your Ear 25.06.2011 09:40 |
brians wig wrote: The other possibility is that the kick drum was taken out in the first place because someone realised at the last minute that Roger HAD missed out a drum beat... Either way, it should NOT have been added back in to the album version, but I have no objections to it being a bonus track. ============================================================================================== Agreed!!! these are remastered & should not be remixed!!! |
| Back2TheLight 25.06.2011 13:35 |
You know, I guess I never really noticed the bass drum missing before on this song. Had a listen to the Japanese remaster version, and I couldn't hear it at all. Being added as a bonus track with the bass drum in? Noooo...that would only give QP an excuse to fill up a blank within the 5 songs they are allowed to put on the bonus discs haha! Honestly...it's just a bass drum...it's not like an added guitar part or anything. Let it be...I can understand the purists point of view, but seriously...just a bass drum! |
| Fastidious and Precise 25.06.2011 17:34 |
link listen to jazz here :) |
| horse feathers 25.06.2011 21:23 |
The kick is on the origional version. Fair enough it is difficult to hear, but it is there alright. It's masked by the bass. With it being produced by RTB, he may have used the 3 bass guitar method. The new mastering techniques can get rid of a lot of stuff, muddines and isolate other frequencies and bring them out more. I've only heard the 30 second snippet on amazon and the new quick is very prominent. There does seem to be a bit of reverb added to it too though. So maybe it has been added, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Kick is in the origional mix. Maybe they have not ommitted the kick at 1.59 as it wasn't there. Another mistake, like the piano in Don't stop me now, which we have only just realised. I hope it hasn't been added and just enhanced, but It does sound better in my opinion with the kick there. |
| Rick 26.06.2011 03:26 |
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shiny shite that the bass drum is now on Jazz as well? Heck, it's not that song has changed drastically. If they had used another Freddie vocal take I would be more disappointed. |
| Back2TheLight 26.06.2011 04:06 |
Agreed ^ |
| dysan 26.06.2011 08:09 |
I wonder if the snippets in the song medley on the end of More Of That Jazz are taken from the remaster or from t Actually, forget it :o) |
| cmsdrums 27.06.2011 04:16 |
Thanks all for the comments. My original intention in this thread was not to question whether it was right or wrong to reinstate the kick drum track, or debate whether a remix has taken place (which are worthy debates), but really simply to say that whatever thye have decided to do with it, they have made an error. The end result is something being not as the original version was, and also not exactly as any revised version should be either! As stated in an earlier post, I don't think the track has been full remixed, but they have clearly 'dropped' the kick drum in somehow. Presumably they have gone back to the multitrack and put the kick in where it should have been (with the exception of the one beat!!), but not changed any levels etc.. of any of the other parts/instruments in any way. It would be really helpful if Greg or Gary can comment as to: 1) exactly what the sleeve means by the kick track being "restored", and 2) is there a cock up with one of the beats being missed? Cheers |
| Togg 27.06.2011 08:50 |
Very interesting, I will have a listen to the original again... BTW to the fella that said ''it's only a bass drum" That's like the most important part of any rock, jazz, punk, country, soul,etc track....so fairly essentail really |
| Rick 27.06.2011 09:34 |
Togg wrote: Very interesting, I will have a listen to the original again... BTW to the fella that said ''it's only a bass drum" That's like the most important part of any rock, jazz, punk, country, soul,etc track....so fairly essentail really ==== I would be that fella, and I don't agree with you. But have it your way. |
| dysan 27.06.2011 09:48 |
I'm terrified it's going to sound like a Junior Vasquez remix! Hope it's subtle. |
| cmsdrums 27.06.2011 09:58 |
dysan wrote: I'm terrified it's going to sound like a Junior Vasquez remix! Hope it's subtle. ---------------------- Don't panic!! It's essentially as they probably intended back when the album was originally released (less the now infamous beat discussed here of course!!) I'm sure it's just because it sounds so unexpected because it was originally missing, but to me the kick on this one track sounds better than the rest of the album! |
| dysan 27.06.2011 10:06 |
Haha - probably where the whole remastering budget went. |
| Togg 29.06.2011 09:14 |
Rick wrote: Togg wrote: Very interesting, I will have a listen to the original again... BTW to the fella that said ''it's only a bass drum" That's like the most important part of any rock, jazz, punk, country, soul,etc track....so fairly essentail really ==== I would be that fella, and I don't agree with you. But have it your way. Actually it was bambams-paradise who said that, didn't see your comment...Ha, but hey each to there own as you say. Personally I feel the bass drum is thr driving force behind most songs, it's what the bass player locks into and works around, it defines the pace and holds the track together. no dance record would work without it, and IMO no rock track. Now I am sure there are exceptions but you get the drift. Anyway my opinion there you have it... |
| eYe 29.06.2011 11:05 |
According to the sleeve notes the base drum has not been "restored", but "reinstated". English is not my native language, but maybe this hint helps to find out what was really done. Discuss ;) To be honest I never noticed that the base drum was missing until now, the song sounds strange to me now. So imho they should have left it as it was. |
| bootLuca 30.06.2011 11:18 |
horse feathers wrote: Another mistake, like the piano in Don't stop me now. which mistake in don't stop me now? |
| cmsdrums 27.07.2011 10:27 |
There's been no comment from Greg or Gary here, and I've emailed the 'Experts' page at Brian's site to see if he, JSS or Josh Mc can comment, but met with silence. From this, I assume that the missing beat pointed out in my original IS indeed missing, and is therefore an error. By the way, this thread was intended purely to discuss whether that single kick drum beat was missing, not to discuss the ethics of whether it should actually have been 'reinstated' at all, but all the discussion has been good! Perhaps it's actually a deliberate mistake so that we all rush out and buy Jazz again when it is reissued once more with 'reinstated reinstated bass drum' !!! |
| rhyeking 27.07.2011 13:22 |
Could be worse. Look at the differences between the 1987 original and the 2001 reissue of Michael Jackson's Bad album. Restoring a bass drum that may or may not have been an honest mistake to begin with is nothing compared with that. Or Mike Oldfield's Platinum album, where, after two pressings, an entire song was removed and replaced, but the label wasn't changed on any subsequent release, so for 30 years the wrong title has been assigned to a song on the album, but other releases use the correct name. And fans are hoping that the original is restored to the forthcoming Deluxe Edition (with the replaced track as a bonus, because it is a good song). The restoration is to its place on the album is key, because, like "Tenement Funster," "Flick Of The Wrist" and "Lily Of The Valley," this removed song fits in the middle of a three track segue, and the edits on either end are awkward, to say the least. |
| cmsdrums 19.08.2011 04:35 |
Well... we have an answer to my original question to the 'experts' at Brian's site on this issue (thanks to them). It seems that Roy Thomas Baker left the kick drum out of the original mix of Jazz by mistake! it says that Roger was no there to pick this up. Presumably therefore none of the rest of the band was there either as they would have spotted this? It raises a much bigger issue in that it seems that the band were therefore not present at the very final mix of Jazz (and very possibly therefore not for other albums either?). This really surprises me. Even if the band we not present for the mix, surely they would be played a copy to approve before the album went to press, at which point someone would notice the missing kick drum and order a revised mix?? In light of this, I wonder how possible is it that other instruments, parts etc.. are not present on final mixes of other songs of the original issues that were intended to be there?? My main question as to whether one of the beats is missing is answered by the 'experts' with "How could you possibly be concerned about something so trivial. . . I don't care". Does this sum up the attitude of the current QPL audio team??? Yes, this could be seen as a 'trivial' mistake, but to me it's a mistake none the less. This flippant repsonse clearly shows they have no pride in their work or attention to detail, or respresenting the material as it was intended. Mistakes, poor mixes, errors in sleeve notes, mistakes with the exhibition details etc...etc... are all sadly too prevelant, and whilst a genuine mistake can be forgiven my me, the reaction and response to this being pointed out to them can't be forgiven. |
| TyphoonTip 19.08.2011 08:40 |
cmsdrums wrote: Well... we have an answer to my original question to the 'experts' at Brian's site on this issue (thanks to them). It seems that Roy Thomas Baker left the kick drum out of the original mix of Jazz by mistake! it says that Roger was no there to pick this up. Presumably therefore none of the rest of the band was there either as they would have spotted this? It raises a much bigger issue in that it seems that the band were therefore not present at the very final mix of Jazz (and very possibly therefore not for other albums either?). This really surprises me. Even if the band we not present for the mix, surely they would be played a copy to approve before the album went to press, at which point someone would notice the missing kick drum and order a revised mix?? _________________________ Call me cynical, but that sounds like a steaming load. It simply doesn't ring true. There have been multiple interviews etc., particularly during the 70s stating, and restating, how fastidious and meticulous they were; particularly with mixing tracks. It wasn't uncommon for multiple mixes to be made until the desired result was achieved. Secondly, it was FREDDIE'S TRACK!! a) Why was Roy apparently mixing the track on his own? ...Doesn't make sense. b) Why was Roger the delegated member of the band to check Roy's mix, while Freddie was nowhere to be seen. ...Doesn't make sense on multiple levels So what we're left with, is QP telling us that a band known for their perfectionism left it to others to mix their tracks. More than that, they didn't even CHECK THEM prior to pressing? Despite; a) spending an outrageous amount of time carefully crafting often complicated vocal/guitar harmonies etc... & b) Reams of evidence to the contrary detailing the attention they paid not only to mixing, but to the physical pressing of their records. I would suggest that is at least seven shades of bullshit. |
| cmsdrums 19.08.2011 12:04 |
Well, bizarrely the experts response to me has been removed from Brian's site already - very odd |
| Sebastian 19.08.2011 12:08 |
I think the answer's fairly simple: the mix was done by Freddie and Roy, and neither noticed the omission. Freddie was probably more concerned about his piano and vocal bits. He was a very meticulous musician who, in most cases, cared a lot about both his bits and the others', but he was not perfect and maybe the occasional detail escaped him, and that may have been the case. |
| brians wig 20.08.2011 03:32 |
Yes, the reply has been removed from Brain's page. i bet someone tipped him off and he had a fit over the reply. How strange that they'll mess about with autotune and overdubbing, yet they "don't care" about a beat being missing! Personally they should have left it alone on the album and used the reinstated version for Deep Cuts 2 only as it still bugs me that I'm now stuck with listening to a different version of a song that's been out for 32 years. It's just WRONG!! That said, I still stand by theory that someone cocked up and incorrectly used the re-instated mix when delivering the album to island for processing to CD and the error was only spotted AFTER thousands of CDs had been manufactured. This would explain why the second batch release date was put back a few weeks to the end of June as it was easier and cheaper to reprint the booklets. If this IS the case, then someone at QPL should have the balls to admit it. If it WASN'T a mistake, then they should have included the "orignal" version on the bonus disc. I know I'm being anal, but hey, I'm one of those guys who wants to watch Star Wars as it originally was and not George Lucas' expended abortions. |
| Sebastian 20.08.2011 09:21 |
I never liked SW, TBH. Although I did watch the third one (of the prequel trilogy) and liked the whole climax(es?). |
| Sheer Brass Neck 20.08.2011 10:46 |
I call bullshit. Brian, in describing the difficulty of working with Bowie on Under Pressure, said that he wanted a different, heavier sound, and Bowie was adamant that the sound that ended up being on UP was what the wanted. Brian was so pissed he said that he didn't go the final mix, which was the first time he'd ever not been there for a final mix. As Jealousy preceded UP... |
| Sebastian 20.08.2011 11:46 |
Have you got any source for that? AFAIK, Brian was absent in MANY of the mixes, as the person who mixed the song was the author. Hence, Brian would've missed all or most of mixing processes on Roger's, John's and Freddie's songs. |
| Sheer Brass Neck 20.08.2011 12:06 |
I think it was in MOJO, Seb. Here is something from another site, with Brian talking about it. "This is a very long story. He was quite difficult to work with, because it was the meeting of two different methods of working. It was stimulating, but at the same time, almost impossible to resolve. We're very pigheaded and set in our ways and Mr. Bowie is too. In fact, he's probably as pigheaded as the four of us put together. I think it was a worthwhile thing to do. But after 'Under Pressure' was done, there were continual disagreements about how it should be put out or if it should even be put out at all. David wanted to redo the entire thing. I had given up by that time because it had gone a long way from what I would have liked to see. But there is still a lot of good stuff in the song. There was a compromise; Freddie, David and Mack actually sat down and produced a mix – under a lot of strain. Roger was also along to keep the peace to some extent, because he and David are friends." |
| Sebastian 20.08.2011 12:12 |
And where exactly is the bit where Brian's saying he was present at all of the pre-UP mixes? |
| Sheer Brass Neck 20.08.2011 12:39 |
I "think" it was in MOJO, I'm pretty good at remembering what I read, but I can't give it a definitive source at the moment as I have neither the time nor inclination to. However, to the best of my pretty good memory, Brian absolutely said that it was the first final mix he ever didn't attend. Having said that, he didn't clarify it that meant for his songs or all songs. You are correct in stating that the author got final mix approval, but I doubt it was approval without input form the others. Maybe with UP, he was credited as a co-writer with the others and felt that he'd step away for the first time from a song he had a writing credit on. When I have time I'll look for the interview. |
| Sebastian 20.08.2011 13:39 |
I remember, for instance, that he was absent from the We Are the Champions mix. He heard it afterwards, and asked for his guitar bits to be re-recorded. |
| joesilvey 21.08.2011 20:46 |
brians wig wrote: I still stand by theory that someone cocked up and incorrectly used the re-instated mix when delivering the album to island for processing to CD and the error was only spotted AFTER thousands of CDs had been manufactured. This would explain why the second batch release date was put back a few weeks to the end of June as it was easier and cheaper to reprint the booklets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wouldn't duplicating cds (certainly these days, anyway) be cheaper than reprinting multi-page, stapled, four-color printed booklets? I honestly don't know... just tossing out the thought. Your theory would make perfect sense, though, to consider that like DSMN, it was an alternate version created to be a bonus track for Jazz deluxe. what i don't understand is how did they discover these multitrack omissions on 2 tracks from Jazz, and nothing from any of the other albums thus far (other than a couple of new backing track and a cappella mixes). was it just a footnoted discovery by Greg Brooks over the past years of tape transfers and they chose to share them for these re-issues? The overall RANDOMness of the bonus tracks is baffling... though i personally am pleased and thankful to have some of the inclusions they've chosen. |
| dysan 22.08.2011 02:48 |
With the bonus tracks I see very little difference between this kick drum thing and the mixes of The Hero (revisited), DSMN, I'm In Love With My Car (g/v mix), all the instrumental mixes etc - they are 'fake' bonus tracks created especially for the reissues rather than contempory mixes (say, like GOFLB TOTP version is). While interesting to hear, they shouldn't make up the bulk of the bonus material. They should be hidden on discs AFTER all the other previously released edits & non album tracks etc, AFTER the unreleased performances, AFTER the live material. |
| GonnaUseMyPrisoners 15.09.2011 00:04 |
Just received the 2nd box here in the States today. The inclusion of the bass drum on Jealousy was completely distracting (not effective, to my taste), and worse, IMO, violates the "remaster" vs. "remix" rule. I find that new passage to be clumsy, in a way, with the extra punch that seems flat as it finishes, whereas the old cymbals-only mix flowed gracefully. But why? I gotta side with the Wig on this one... the inclusion was probably an error on these remasters that may have been discovered too late to retract (can't celebrate the 40 anniversary in year 41, after all). To my mind, it's quite probable that RTB originally mixed it out deliberately, either of his own choice (or perhaps at Freddie's bidding?). I'm reminded of Coming Soon missing some little bit that was reportedly originally mixed in rather ad-hoc (and therefore not present on the master mix tapes? or some such thing...). So things done at the last minute wouldn't surprise me a bit. I gotta think these beats landed in the remastered Jealous as a small oversight, with the various parties being relatively unfamiliar with the obscure nuances of this "deep" track. The mention in the notes seems an attempt to repackage the error as an intentional fix. But it could also be taken as sarcastic, if it's truly an oversight, as I suspect. I could be wrong, of course. |
| Togg 15.09.2011 05:01 |
I have to say I think the concept of QP not caring about the product is rediculas, of course they care but mistakes happen to everyone, it's very possible Roger didnt play the beat in the first place, so it wasnt there to restore and the decision was made to leave it as played... As for not being at the final mixes, these things go on forever and is no surprise that once the main mix was done final tweaks are left for the writer of the song and the engineer, if you remember John mixed Your My Best Friend and spent hours eqing Rogers drums (according to the opera dvd voice over) which to me at least sounded like it was done without Roger being present at the time. None of which is unusal for any band as these things go on for weeks and it's impossible for everyone to always be there if you have lots of commitments from record labels and promo folk. Missing the kick off in the first place is amazing, but these things can happen particularly when in those days you are not looking at a screen it's just a desk with level meters. Sure the band will ge the final mix to listen to but where there was time to check it before it went to press we will never know, and even if they did it's very possible roger didnt notice the missing kick either until much later. |
| OneTrackMind 15.09.2011 13:49 |
This is a strange one. I mean, it sounds like a mistake. As a musician, I don't see any reason why he would leave the kick out at that moment, makes no sense. On the other hand, if the kick drum has been 'restored', then it was on a track on it's own, meaning they could have easily copied a kick and inserted it into the song at the right moment digitally. So perhaps it was intentional, who knows. Either way, the track sounds better with it in if you ask me, I'm glad they did it. |
| atom murray 25.11.2012 04:05 |
As has been already discussed, the bass drum at 2:46 "I should live or die" is obviously new. That 'dah dah dah dah' piano chord is in the quiet passage after every chorus and now the bass drum is 'reinstated' just at the last one. This on close listening is a remix in my mind, the bass drum probably always existed on the multitrack and was either muted or not played for this part to create dynamics. ('Spread Your Wings' is similar to this after the choruses also). The drums, bass and piano seem to be recorded together, as there is a live feel to them. If the bass drum didn't exist and was added, then this is a scandal!!! It does sound great I must admit but I'd hate to think it is a software patch and not Mr Taylor in '78! This is one of Mercury's finest ballads and a superb song too. Another thing I noticed is the vocals of the 'How, how, how (Oh my jealousy)' part. They seem much more life-like and separated than before! I have a strong hunch that it was remixed, but then again with today's technology and proper EQ-ing maybe the master always sounded like this (except the 'reinstated' bass drum) but until now digital wasn't good enough to get the most out of it! Overall this 2011 version is less harsh, more detailed and full-sounding. |