| The Real Wizard 14.05.2011 15:46 |
To all of you people who think Brian is full of ego.. Brian received an award in Holland for his contributions to the electric guitar, and on his soapbox he did not boast about it. Instead he plugged the band he played with, Van Veltzen. link link It only saddens me that he doesn't believe he is an innovator. I guess after all these years of pop culture not labeling him as one, he actually believes it now himself. The fact is - his work, particularly on Sheer Heart Attack and A Night At The Opera, redefined the bounds of what can be done with the electric guitar. He IS an innovator, one of the greatest musicians of our time, a doctor of science and, above all, a true gentleman. |
| mooghead 14.05.2011 15:53 |
He is everything you say, my respect for him is immeasurable. Just wish he hadn't played the same guitar solo for 15 years. |
| bigV 14.05.2011 16:01 |
mooghead wrote: He is everything you say, my respect for him is immeasurable. Just wish he hadn't played the same guitar solo for 15 years. Well he did incorporate "Chinese Torture" in the 2005 solo. That's a good thing, I can't quite remember why... :D But he's great, I love him! V. |
| mooghead 14.05.2011 16:15 |
I wouldn't know about 2005....... I'm a Queen fan... :-) |
| malicedoom 14.05.2011 18:03 |
Brian is pure class. Bravo to him. |
| Kamenliter 14.05.2011 20:55 |
When I had the rare opportunity to meet Brian before his Fat Tuesday's gig in 1991, he couldn't have been more gracious and humble to a 23 year old kid, asking ME questions and my opinions on Queen related stuff of the moment. He was equally friendly to the two or three other fans that were hanging around at the bar. And Brian certainly is a musical genius and guitar innovator par excellence. |
| Rick 15.05.2011 03:34 |
mooghead wrote: I wouldn't know about 2005....... I'm a Queen fan... :-) --------------------- You missed two awesome tours...with Queen members. :-) |
| brians wig 15.05.2011 04:13 |
mooghead wrote: I wouldn't know about 2005....... I'm a Queen fan... :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Obviously a very narrow-minded one at that. Nevermind. It's YOU who missed out on seeing Brian & Roger together, regardless of who else they were playing with. |
| Makka 15.05.2011 05:05 |
mooghead wrote: I wouldn't know about 2005....... I'm a Queen fan... :-) Perfect response. Couldn't of said it better myself! |
| john bodega 15.05.2011 13:02 |
"Perfect response. Couldn't of said it better myself! " I believe you. |
| YannickJoker 15.05.2011 13:16 |
Very nice of Brian indeed, except for the fact that it's VanVelzen, not Van Veltzen. But hey, it's a very small mistake many non-Dutch persons would have made. |
| Thistle 15.05.2011 15:52 |
Makka wrote: mooghead wrote: I wouldn't know about 2005....... I'm a Queen fan... :-) Perfect response. Couldn't of said it better myself! ============================================================================================= Sorry, don't mean to be a dick but that is a small pet hate of mine - that's "couldn't have" NOT "couldn't of". In reply to Sir GH, Dr.May certainly IS a gentleman and how he's not seen as in innovator really beats me - he may not technically be the greatest guitar player, but his sound is truly distinctive and the pure emotion he puts in is second to none as far as I'm concerned. Every time I've seen him perform I have cried - not because I am overwhelmed by him, but because of the sound he gets out of that guitar. I was left with goosebumps at pretty much all of the anthems show in Glasgow the other night. When I met him in January, he was an absolute gentleman and took his time to talk with us, sign autographs and take pictures. Anyone who dismisses the Queen and PR shows just don't have a clue what they missed. |
| The Real Wizard 15.05.2011 16:08 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "Perfect response. Couldn't of said it better myself! " I believe you. ================ HAHA... brilliant. |
| lifetimefanofqueen 15.05.2011 19:08 |
Sir GH wrote: one of the greatest musicians of our time, a doctor of science and, above all, a true gentleman. ===================== and a God =) |
| thomasquinn 32989 16.05.2011 04:53 |
Hate to nitpick, but in case anyone wants to google the band in question: they're called Van Velzen. Without the 't'. |
| *goodco* 16.05.2011 12:31 |
Brian was certainly a gentleman to many of us at the Hollywood Walk of Fame presentation in 2002. And yet.....................at the premier of the WWRY musical in Las Vegas the following year, there were 25 very lucky participants who won a chance to a 'meet and greet', hosted by Jacky, at the Paris Hotel. How exciting! What a joy! The chance of a lifetime for many!! Neither one showed up for the 4PM gathering. Most likely they were too hung over. We were lucky, having met them twice. The vast majority spent hundreds to fly out there, booked a room, blah blah blah... and got screwed. As we did. At least we had some memories for the good, ....they did not. They spent hours at the bar, cancelling their plans, hoping to see them pass through, with no luck. No alternate time was set up. |
| bigV 16.05.2011 13:26 |
I'm still a bit pissed off that in Budapest in 2005 he hid from the fans in the Four Seasons hotel (okay, he was tired because he'd flown to London and back the night before) and in Vienna in 2008 he and the band flew out right after the show so I couldn't meet him both times. I really want to meet the man. He's my hero. V. |
| GratefulFan 16.05.2011 15:05 |
I can completely see where artists aren't up to the fan thing after each and every show. Meeting and mingling with large numbers of strangers who feel connected to you in some way has to be draining and daunting if you're not in the mood. It's something that if done poorly or half heartedly can easily backfire. And all these years later, it's not really owed. Brian does put time into his soapbox and such and answers correspondence regularly which is well more than most. So I'm inclined to cut him quite a bit of slack. To the initial post: the videos linked are two examples of scores out there that show Brian at or near his best. At his best he's generous, articulate, perceptibly intelligent, effective, gracious, warm and just generally inspiring. His ability to stand out this way in the league of rock stars is one of the rewards of being a Queen fan - not only to we get incredibly substantial music, but a notably substantial human being as well. It's something we can be really proud about. That said, few of us are consistent in every moment or every facet of our lives so I'd argue against the videos somehow laying waste to the idea that Brian can and does sometimes operate from a place of rather significant ego. In overseeing his animal rights manifesto for example, he's about as far from a gentleman as one can get. He's actually frequently stunningly intolerant, verbally abusive, illogical and seemingly operating with an ego about the size of a truck. So he's got it in him, no question. |
| YannickJoker 16.05.2011 15:32 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: Hate to nitpick, but in case anyone wants to google the band in question: they're called Van Velzen. Without the 't'. === I already said it, but hey. And it's VanVelzen. |
| The Real Wizard 17.05.2011 12:02 |
GratefulFan wrote: In overseeing his animal rights manifesto for example, he's about as far from a gentleman as one can get. He's actually frequently stunningly intolerant, verbally abusive, illogical and seemingly operating with an ego about the size of a truck. ==================== Why should he be tolerant of people who spread propaganda to bring back the hunt to kill harmless animals? |
| YourValentine 17.05.2011 12:14 |
It's not just intolerant, Bob - it's the abuse Brian is hurling at people who do not agree with him. In such cases he is as far from being a gentleman as he possibly can. My personal experience with Brian is very positive - a nice, gentle, friendly person but when he gets all wound up about the badgers and foxes he crosses all lines of decent discussion or argument. I would not want to become the target of his wrath :-) |
| GratefulFan 17.05.2011 12:29 |
Sir GH wrote: Why should he be tolerant of people who spread propaganda to bring back the hunt to kill harmless animals? ===================== Propaganda irony alert. Plus what YV said. |
| Thistle 17.05.2011 19:13 |
When it comes to the wildlife situation, Brian is right to be so passionate and vociferous in his approach. Those who disagree with his sentiments on such a matter are heartless and cruel individuals who deserve a good boot up the anus. And why shouldn't he use his celebrity status to bring the issues to the attention of the masses? I wouldn't call it egotistical. I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Brian on such matters, and can be such a little fucker about it as well. And I don't have an ego the size of a truck. Good on him. Go Dr. May!!! |
| GratefulFan 18.05.2011 18:44 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: When it comes to the wildlife situation, Brian is right to be so passionate and vociferous in his approach. Those who disagree with his sentiments on such a matter are heartless and cruel individuals who deserve a good boot up the anus. And why shouldn't he use his celebrity status to bring the issues to the attention of the masses? I wouldn't call it egotistical. I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Brian on such matters, and can be such a little fucker about it as well. And I don't have an ego the size of a truck. Good on him. Go Dr. May!!! ======================== Having noted over time how sensitive you are to injustice and baseless and gratuitous cruelty to others here on QZ, I can't quite believe you've actually closely followed the entire campaign and all it's faces and all Brian's words and come up with this stance. Have you read all of it, or are you just basing your thoughts on a general sense that Brian is strongly committed to humane and fair treatment for animals? |
| john bodega 19.05.2011 03:48 |
Brian says some stupid things - in my estimation, he does this only as often as any regular schmuck who is getting caught up in their own feelings. His rants are startlingly ordinary, but coming from a rock star people seem to think they're completely unacceptable. True enough, when he really gets carried away, he crosses the line - like those times that he's used his qualification as a means to belittle other people (even though his qualification is in an entirely different field). But, I see 'normal' people do crazy shit like that on a regular basis, because we are (mostly) emotional beings, and these things happen. I won't drag Brian over the coals for having similar flaws to the rest of us, nor would I defend him. He's just a guy - if you're uncomfortable with seeing your 'heroes' as such, then just listen to the music and pretend it came out of a hole in the ground or something. |
| mike hunt 19.05.2011 04:27 |
From what I seen and heard from From Brian May is that he's a good guy. Usually has something positive to say about his peers, bandmates, ect. Of course he has flaws and isn't perfect......Most highly successful people have big ego's.. Freddie had bigger flaws in his personality than Brian, so before you all get on brian about every word he say's Just think of some of the other rock stars and people in general with their bigger flaws, and bigger Ego's. |
| GratefulFan 19.05.2011 11:27 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Brian says some stupid things - in my estimation, he does this only as often as any regular schmuck who is getting caught up in their own feelings. His rants are startlingly ordinary, but coming from a rock star people seem to think they're completely unacceptable. True enough, when he really gets carried away, he crosses the line - like those times that he's used his qualification as a means to belittle other people (even though his qualification is in an entirely different field). But, I see 'normal' people do crazy shit like that on a regular basis, because we are (mostly) emotional beings, and these things happen. I won't drag Brian over the coals for having similar flaws to the rest of us, nor would I defend him. He's just a guy - if you're uncomfortable with seeing your 'heroes' as such, then just listen to the music and pretend it came out of a hole in the ground or something. ============================ Again, I'd want to know if you had read all of it, or almost all of it, consistently. It's genuinely hard for me to believe that anybody who has thinks of the stuff he says and does as mostly typical or normal. It has little to do with the fact that he's a rock star, and a lot to do with the fact that in that role he's the moral and intellectual head of a group actively trying to impact public policy through various outlets. It's not just some guy jawing about stuff - he's accountable just like other organizations and people in that position are. And he's almost terrorist level intolerant in an intellectual sense. Really. It kind of blows my mind, and at it's frequent worst I don't think it's even remotely ordinary. He couldn't even keep a Facebook page together because of the weird, dogmatic, fractious, paranoid and intellectually violent tone that was set right at the top. Who can't keep a Facebook page together in 2010? Brian May on foxes and badgers, that's who. |
| Thistle 19.05.2011 11:30 |
GratefulFan wrote: Thistleboy 1980 wrote: When it comes to the wildlife situation, Brian is right to be so passionate and vociferous in his approach. Those who disagree with his sentiments on such a matter are heartless and cruel individuals who deserve a good boot up the anus. And why shouldn't he use his celebrity status to bring the issues to the attention of the masses? I wouldn't call it egotistical. I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Brian on such matters, and can be such a little fucker about it as well. And I don't have an ego the size of a truck. Good on him. Go Dr. May!!! ======================== Having noted over time how sensitive you are to injustice and baseless and gratuitous cruelty to others here on QZ, I can't quite believe you've actually closely followed the entire campaign and all it's faces and all Brian's words and come up with this stance. Have you read all of it, or are you just basing your thoughts on a general sense that Brian is strongly committed to humane and fair treatment for animals? ============================================================================================= Hey GFF, the first part of your assessment is correct, I haven't followed every single line of the campaign, it just isn't possible time-wise for me to do that. In fact, I wouldn't obsessively follow every word every time the good Dr decided to climb upon his soapbox. But I wouldn't say that my stance is based purely on a generalisation. I personally don't think he is being egotistical, but let's just say for the moment he IS trying to boos his own ego - as long as it is for the good of the animals in the long-run, who cares? Whether or not you perceive Brian's rants as a positive or not, the thing is he is still getting us to talk - and think about - the issue. And hopefully be pro-active about it too. I can't help but see that as a positive, and think he has every right to say what he feels is right. |
| GratefulFan 19.05.2011 15:01 |
Thistleboy 1980 wrote: Hey GFF, the first part of your assessment is correct, I haven't followed every single line of the campaign, it just isn't possible time-wise for me to do that. In fact, I wouldn't obsessively follow every word every time the good Dr decided to climb upon his soapbox. But I wouldn't say that my stance is based purely on a generalisation. I personally don't think he is being egotistical, but let's just say for the moment he IS trying to boos his own ego - as long as it is for the good of the animals in the long-run, who cares? Whether or not you perceive Brian's rants as a positive or not, the thing is he is still getting us to talk - and think about - the issue. And hopefully be pro-active about it too. I can't help but see that as a positive, and think he has every right to say what he feels is right. ======================================== I'm a bit worried that I'm sounding like if you or anybody else hasn't pored over every word then you don't have much of an opinion worth worrying about. Not at all. I just wholeheartedly believe that a post by post and article by article reading of all or most of the material from the beginning is objectively inconsistent with any kind of assessment that Brian has been particularly positive, reasonable, 'typical' or fair. You and anybody else are of course free to make broad statements of agreement with him, but it's worth being aware that you may be implicitly agreeing with a scorched earth policy that treats people pretty brutally. That hasn't been something I've seen you be indifferent to before, so that was the source of my question about how closely you had read and followed. The ego comes not in using his celebrity to attract attention to the cause - that's a potentially great thing - it's in his utter inability or unwillingness to see anything at all outside his incredibly narrow viewpoint, and his tendency to abuse people who do. Abuse is qualitatively different than firm and committed disagreement. In the end I actually don't think he's getting us to to talk much about the issue. His approach is way too polarizing, and the talk here has been 95% about him, and 5% about the issue. He has very few people involved at his Save Me site despite his huge personal popularity and significant public profile. I'm assuming that most people simply don't want to associate themselves with his approach. When he first raised the campaign I was very, very keen to start thinking more seriously about moral issues surrounding hunting and farming and such that I hadn't really considered in any real depth before. I saw it as an invitation or a challenge from someone I admired deeply. I was in. And shortly thereafter I was just kind of stunned, and then even more stunned, and it's evolved into me seriously wanting to personally eat a cow a month just in general resistance to his tactics. So while he may be inspiring the more casual observer, he's also polarizing a lot of people on both sides and making them dig in and plug their ears, and causing others like me to just wander away unchanged despite a desire to be a moral person on these issues. A terrible waste for a smart man who wants to make a difference and who is SO gifted at classy, effective and gentle but committed communication in other parts of his life. |
| moonie 19.05.2011 19:30 |
Very well said mate. Anyway...Time for a bit of light relief.. link |
| YannickJoker 20.05.2011 00:42 |
That blog is still hilarious. |
| john bodega 20.05.2011 01:54 |
"It's genuinely hard for me to believe that anybody who has thinks of the stuff he says and does as mostly typical or normal" Ah, but define normal! I think of it as something that belongs to the norm, and since I'm calling upon my own sample group (the people I've met in my life) to make that call, the fact is that my 'normal' might not be the same as someone else's. Fact is, I've met a lot of very emotional people who have big highs and deep lows in their moods. I do not like a lot of things that Brian May has said, but really - if I am to measure him against the same yardstick that I would use for any old shmo, then he doesn't come up all that different. A lot of people have said a lot of dumb things; if time were not so precious, I could spend my days attempting to mete out the appropriate judgements on these people, or at the very least pontificate on the reasons that I dislike their behaviour, but I've made the choice to not bother. Vive la différence. There is the whole issue of whether or not our celebrities should be held to different standards; maybe it's legitimate to say that they should be better people, and that their blogs shouldn't be full of as much crap as Brian's is. But, I don't subscribe to that notion. I don't look to him for an example of a better human being; I look to him for good guitar work. Frankly, it doesn't bother me that he's a poor debater or that his morals aren't the same as mine, because he is just one man on the other end of the planet. His words and actions have literally as much effect on me as the hobo that lives nearest to his estate. Perhaps he should clean up his act, and perhaps he is a role model to some - but not to me. All that really interests me when it comes to Brian May is the guitar playing. His blog (and I've read the whole thing) is entertaining sometimes, but that's all. |
| john bodega 20.05.2011 01:56 |
"it's evolved into me seriously wanting to personally eat a cow a month just in general resistance to his tactics" I already do. |
| Donna13 20.05.2011 13:27 |
I like to analyze people - not that I am qualified to do so - but, in my opinion, Brian is not suffering from too big an ego (whatever that means - I'm not sure), but rather from feelings that he is smaller in importance than others. When someone's overall intentions are good, you do get the feeling you want to help them. I haven't looked up his web site for a while. |
| GratefulFan 23.05.2011 19:45 |
Zebonka12 wrote: A lot of people have said a lot of dumb things; if time were not so precious, I could spend my days attempting to mete out the appropriate judgements on these people, or at the very least pontificate on the reasons that I dislike their behaviour, but I've made the choice to not bother. Vive la différence. ============================== It's hard to go wrong with tolerance and perspective. Still, I think what gets me is what I see as as misuse of position and power, however limited the impact in the grand scheme of things. Brian's status and high profile give him a largely one sided platform that he uses far too often to abuse people directly and indirectly who for one reason or another can't really defend themselves. It's a class of behaviour and a sort of injustice that I think a lot of people respond to viscerally, and I think that's an important human reaction to have in the mix wherever these issues are found. Poison public discourse is something we need much, much less of. That in particular I guess I don't see as a small thing. |
| GratefulFan 23.05.2011 20:01 |
Donna13 wrote: I like to analyze people - not that I am qualified to do so - but, in my opinion, Brian is not suffering from too big an ego (whatever that means - I'm not sure), but rather from feelings that he is smaller in importance than others. When someone's overall intentions are good, you do get the feeling you want to help them. I haven't looked up his web site for a while. ============================== Who doesn't suffer from self doubt. It's not much of a pass for abusing people. We're all works in progress dependent in part on honest feedback from those around us. Does he get enough of that? Who knows. |
| Thistle 24.05.2011 06:57 |
@ GratefulFan I do see the way you're thinking, I really do, but although it may seem here on QZ that I'm all gentle and against the unfair treatment of others, I do also tend to have an eye for an eye attitude. I know that this is not socially acceptable, but it's in my make-up. As an example, I was watching some reality vet programme on TV yesterday, it was set in Australia. There was a wee Terrier who had been the victim of a hit and run and was in a really bad way. It's head had been run over, it's skull was damaged and one of it's eyes had been pulled out. The reason it got onto the road in the first place was some bastard had stolen it's lead while it was waiting for it's owner to finish some shopping. Anyway, after a really big and brave fight to overcome the head trauma, the vets then discovered it had a fractured spinal cord, and that was the end. I really wanted to kill the bastard who had stolen the lead. I mean, REALLY. Back onto Brian, these wee animals can hardly defend themselves, so why should we worry, even if Brian becomes abusive towards those who mistreat others or wildlife? Surely they deserve all they get? |
| Micrówave 24.05.2011 11:03 |
The fact is - his work, particularly on Sheer Heart Attack and A Night At The Opera, redefined the bounds of what can be done with the electric guitar. He IS an innovator, one of the greatest musicians of our time, a doctor of science and, above all, a true gentleman."redefined what can be done with the electric guitar"? Hell, I can do that. Give me a guitar, a tube of polygrip, and a rubber hammer. I hate when people throw out worthless gratification, such as this. (no offense, Bob, I'm speaking in general) There's at least 100 guitarists I could name right now that "redefined" something on guitar. I'm sure Avril Lavinge (sp?) redefined something on her Squier Signature Series... but I'm not convinced it's groundbreaking. Fact is, Brian didn't win BEST GUITARIST EVER on Votenumberone.com. |
| john bodega 24.05.2011 12:13 |
"Still, I think what gets me is what I see as as misuse of position and power, however limited the impact in the grand scheme of things. Brian's status and high profile give him a largely one sided platform that he uses far too often to abuse people directly and indirectly who for one reason or another can't really defend themselves" And 5 years ago, I'd have agreed with you. 5 years ago, maybe his name still carried a bit of oomph, but not anymore. A lot of my musician pals treat him with proper rock-god respect as far as the music goes, but when it comes to Brian May the Person - he's become a bit of a joke, at least among people that I talk to. The thing about using your profile to further a cause or promote an opinion is that you can easily make your name worthless, if you run it into the ground. Despite what people think, celebrity as a resource is finite. Someone can be as big a star as they wish, but at the end of the day they can still alienate themselves and eradicate a lot of their perceived influence. Maybe it seems like this because I'm on the other end of the world, but even among my online pals I'd find it hard to locate anyone who really took Brian May seriously as a statesman or an activist. Personally, I think it was "The Call" that ruined it for him. link I'm saying all of this as a lifelong fan of the music, and as long as you don't get him talking about animals I'm sure he's a really great guy. I tread similar water with my sister, with whom I agree on a great deal of topics; but the fact is that she is a lot more invested in them than I am, and is prone to emotional outbursts - and emotional people frequently say stupid things while trying to make a point. Enter Brian May's Soapbox. |
| john bodega 24.05.2011 12:15 |
"Fact is, Brian didn't win BEST GUITARIST EVER on Votenumberone.com." I am sure there's a purpose for citing a 'tarded internet poll in a discussion. I'm going to choose to believe it's satire or something. |
| Donna13 24.05.2011 12:55 |
I love Brian May! He is so cool and so talented. I think he is a good person. But my point before was that this animal rights thing is not his field at all so he might feel powerless and much less than an authority. I don't think he has the power or the position to abuse here. If anything, he would feel like the underdog, I should think. If what he is writing really bothers anyone enough so that they have the desire to help him, why not write to him and mention it? I think he should get negative feedback and I bet he does already. It would be a lonely existence to surround yourself with a bunch of "yes men" and kiss ups. A real friend tells you what you need to hear, even if put in a kind or diplomatic way so as not to upset you. |
| beautifulsoup 24.05.2011 23:58 |
Brian is human; and thus, multi-dimensional. |
| Catbert 28.06.2011 18:34 |
I don't think Brian's stance on animal welfare is intended to be part of the current cultural "norm". I believe that, unfortunately, even now in the 21st century, the views he espouses are still way ahead of their time. It is still pretty much a taboo to value any animal life on an equal basis to human life. It was (or still is) the same for many human ethnic and/or social groups, ie they were(/are) also not really considered to be "human" either. |
| GratefulFan 29.06.2011 12:13 |
I've heard Brian's comparison of the way we treat animals with past practices like slavery as well, and I think he's reaching. No matter how much more we come to learn about the sentience and physical, emotional and psychological lives of animals we will still always ensure human needs and desires are met. All species do this. Out of necessity the acts of acquiring food and ensuring physical security are played out in a particularly brutal way in the animal world. Our intelligence and highly developed abilities to morally reason and experience empathy means we can do much better than this, but how can that expand so far as to 'be equal'? If for some reason some choice had to be made the life of a badger is equal to the life of your child or your husband or wife, for example? Really? |
| The Real Wizard 29.06.2011 13:14 |
A life is a life. Who exactly made us the superior species? |
| GratefulFan 29.06.2011 14:17 |
It's not about a 'superior' species. I'm certainly not the superior species if I'm standing in the middle of a pack of hungry lions unarmed but for a bottle of bbq sauce . It's about a pan-species behaviour that will sacrifice other life to take care of itself and it's own. How does your theory work in real life? If you have a bad neighbour that ends up infesting your apartment with 20,000 cockroaches, what are you going to do? Move in hopeless humble awe of the 20,000 equal lives, or let the exterminator in? If you're driving your car and the price of not hitting a person is swerving and hitting a chipmunk, what do you do? Quickly calculate the fuel savings and hit the closest lifeform? |
| catqueen 29.06.2011 15:30 |
Indeed he is a true gentleman, its just a pity about Brian's Curse though. |
| The Real Wizard 29.06.2011 15:33 |
GratefulFan wrote: "If you have a bad neighbour that ends up infesting your apartment with 20,000 cockroaches, what are you going to do? Move in hopeless humble awe of the 20,000 equal lives, or let the exterminator in?" I think you're being a bit extreme, as we're not talking about pests here. We're talking about blood sports - a conscious decision made by these hunters. I see your point, but cockroaches are not a fair comparison. Well, they are according to the right-wing gun-toting propagandists who want to lift the fox hunting bans.. Furthermore, making a split second quick decision about whether or not to hit a chipmunk on the road (and possibly harming yourself in the process) is different from going out of your way to hunt animals that have no business being hunted. |
| Sebastian 29.06.2011 16:23 |
Very true Bob. |
| GratefulFan 29.06.2011 17:09 |
Arguing about fox hunting is a different proposition completely than arguing that Brian's views are simply ahead of their time, or that "a life is a life" - that animal life can or should be valued equally by humans in all situations. What about when the choice is not between humans and animals, but between animals and other animals? I'm interested Bob in your thoughts on this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12323300 |
| Yara 29.06.2011 18:40 |
GratefulFan wrote: It's not about a 'superior' species. I'm certainly not the superior species if I'm standing in the middle of a pack of hungry lions unarmed but for a bottle of bbq sauce . It's about a pan-species behaviour that will sacrifice other life to take care of itself and it's own. How does your theory work in real life? If you have a bad neighbour that ends up infesting your apartment with 20,000 cockroaches, what are you going to do? Move in hopeless humble awe of the 20,000 equal lives, or let the exterminator in? If you're driving your car and the price of not hitting a person is swerving and hitting a chipmunk, what do you do? Quickly calculate the fuel savings and hit the closest lifeform? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can guess what's the worldview behind your ideas, and I'm fairly sympathetical to it, but your argument is lame. All you have done is bringing up examples of people having their lives threatned by other animals - the guy in the middle of a pack of hungry lions, Bob surrounded by 20.000 cockroaches... If self-preservation is a pan-species behavior, then we are indeed equal to other animals, since no one - at least nowadays in most of the Western World - is expected to become a martyr and put any other life, especially unrelated ones, above his own when killing is the only way of surviving. A dog is as capable of empathy as you. If it were you or the dog one cares about on the metaphorical road, he'd hit you anytime if there were no legal consequences. One reason why it seems just logical to kill the chipmunk is the fact that one may get in serious trouble with the law if a person happens to be hit. I don't think it has much to do with empathy or a tendency to treating human beings as more valuable lifeforms. It has a lot to do, again, with self-preservation and escaping from the law. People have been killing each other ever since the homo sapiens came into being. People do it everyday. People do it in massive scale, despite having a "deeper counsciousness", and so on and so forth. Human beings are able to kill thousands of people because of ideas. Lions at least don't go out of their way to kill other lifeforms for ideological reasons or just for the fun of it. People were the audience at the Colosseum. The other species were there to kill and be killed, and they were harshly manipulted for that purpose. The background of your thoughts has something attractive about it, but your argument is lame, in short. |
| LAP 29.06.2011 23:50 |
Brian May is probably the most sincerest and genuine rock stars living! This man has no airs and graces and has a real general liking of fans, and we always read how he would take time out to sign autographs and talk to fans after concerts. He is not your typical big head-little brain guitar hero, who is dumb as dogshit and usually so full of shit it aint funny! Brian is the complete opposite! At the same time, he does not suffer fools lightly, and he is very quick to cut down any interviewer who tries to make a mockery of him or Queen! A true legend. |
| mike hunt 30.06.2011 02:56 |
LAP wrote: Brian May is probably the most sincerest and genuine rock stars living! This man has no airs and graces and has a real general liking of fans, and we always read how he would take time out to sign autographs and talk to fans after concerts. He is not your typical big head-little brain guitar hero, who is dumb as dogshit and usually so full of shit it aint funny! Brian is the complete opposite! At the same time, he does not suffer fools lightly, and he is very quick to cut down any interviewer who tries to make a mockery of him or Queen! A true legend. Is that you Brian?...sometimes I think Queen member's visit this site and talk themselves up........ |
| GratefulFan 30.06.2011 12:33 |
Yara wrote: I can guess what's the worldview behind your ideas, and I'm fairly sympathetical to it, but your argument is lame. All you have done is bringing up examples of people having their lives threatned by other animals - the guy in the middle of a pack of hungry lions, Bob surrounded by 20.000 cockroaches... If self-preservation is a pan-species behavior, then we are indeed equal to other animals, since no one - at least nowadays in most of the Western World - is expected to become a martyr and put any other life, especially unrelated ones, above his own when killing is the only way of surviving. A dog is as capable of empathy as you. If it were you or the dog one cares about on the metaphorical road, he'd hit you anytime if there were no legal consequences. One reason why it seems just logical to kill the chipmunk is the fact that one may get in serious trouble with the law if a person happens to be hit. I don't think it has much to do with empathy or a tendency to treating human beings as more valuable lifeforms. It has a lot to do, again, with self-preservation and escaping from the law. People have been killing each other ever since the homo sapiens came into being. People do it everyday. People do it in massive scale, despite having a "deeper counsciousness", and so on and so forth. Human beings are able to kill thousands of people because of ideas. Lions at least don't go out of their way to kill other lifeforms for ideological reasons or just for the fun of it. People were the audience at the Colosseum. The other species were there to kill and be killed, and they were harshly manipulted for that purpose. The background of your thoughts has something attractive about it, but your argument is lame, in short. ===================== I don't have any beliefs in this area nearly developed enough to be considered a 'worldview'. What I wrote were preliminary thoughts in response to the related principles that 'a life is a life' and 'animal and human life is equal' that I don't think can have any broad meaning in the real world. My point about the lions - and there are nearly unlimited less extreme examples I could use to express the same idea - is that 'superiority' and it's attendant behaviours are not the exclusive domain of marauding humans but the fortune of whoever has the upper hand in any given situation regardless of the species. Cockroaches actually can't kill Bob, and that example was included to show that we regularly kill or otherwise interfere with other life to provide for things like physical and psychological comfort that are not strictly needs, but just desires A 'life is a life' when applied at all is applied unevenly and virtually always for our own benefit in one way or another. And what do the spectrum of laws relating to the killing and harming of other humans reflect if not the value society places on human life? Of course it's about a judgement about which lifeforms are more valuable. While I'd strongly question your assertion that the capacity for empathy of a dog and a human are the same, I agree that emotions and such even if rudimentary are not exclusive to humans. And neither are things like cruelty. It seems logical that the darker impulses of more complex thinking will be present in some degree in any creature with neurobiology capable of forming intent or even observing and repeating actions with a cause and effect relationship. Jane Goodall who spent decades observing primates said her biggest disappointment was discovering that they were just like us. She observed bullying and violence and behaviour meant to hurt, harm and ostracize and she said "I thought they were better than us, but they're not. They're just like us." The notion that there are no bad animals just bad people is another notion grounded in about the same degree of realism as 'a life is a life'. |
| Catbert 02.07.2011 18:20 |
I would not say "that animal life can or should be valued equally by humans in all situations", only that it should not automatically be less valued in all situations. For example I might value my cat's life above say Rupert Murdoch's, or Robert Mugabe's. Does that seem entirely unreasonable? |
| GratefulFan 06.07.2011 12:50 |
Catbert wrote: I would not say "that animal life can or should be valued equally by humans in all situations", only that it should not automatically be less valued in all situations. For example I might value my cat's life above say Rupert Murdoch's, or Robert Mugabe's. Does that seem entirely unreasonable? ============================= Well I don't think it is automatically less valued in all situations. There are laws and conservation strategies designed to preserve and protect individual and collective animal life that thwart or limit human endeavours and desires all the time. You can't, as one man in Toronto recently found out, whack a raccoon over the head with a shovel for messing with your yard for example. Development of land for a new school in my city was delayed for years because of strong resistance from a group who wanted to protect adjacent areas of marshland and the life contained in it. It was only granted a permit after a great number of concessions and studies that showed the impact would be limited. There are countless similar situations in every developed or developing corner of the world. In other situations of course human will dominates, and we certainly have made a mess of some things. But then again, so have those mink in Scotland noted in the article above. What I find myself resisting is the Brian May notion that just about *everything* is some kind of egregious display of human pillaging. I think it's him that has the somewhat twisted view of the human place in the animal world. He frequently points out that we are mere animals, but apparently ones that can't subsist and carve out a spot in the world under any of the same rules of the rest of the animal kingdom without being in some sort of horrible and sickening moral decay. People should be allowed reasonable protection of themselves and their loved ones, their homes, their communities, their environment, their livelihoods etc. without being labelled some absurd thing by Dr. Unreasonable. As for your cat, you probably value it's life above that of a lot of people who aren't necessarily some shade of evil. You probably even value it's life over my life, for example, because I'm just an abstraction while your cat is (presumably) an awesome real cat! Valuing your cat is kind of a micro version of the larger feathering of one's own nest that I'm trying to point out as normal, acceptable and even instinctive behaviour. |
| catqueen 06.07.2011 13:19 |
GratefulFan wrote: I've heard Brian's comparison of the way we treat animals with past practices like slavery as well, and I think he's reaching. No matter how much more we come to learn about the sentience and physical, emotional and psychological lives of animals we will still always ensure human needs and desires are met. All species do this. Out of necessity the acts of acquiring food and ensuring physical security are played out in a particularly brutal way in the animal world. Our intelligence and highly developed abilities to morally reason and experience empathy means we can do much better than this, but how can that expand so far as to 'be equal'? If for some reason some choice had to be made the life of a badger is equal to the life of your child or your husband or wife, for example? Really? Hm.... i don't believe in cruelty, and i think its sad that animals are kept in captivity (having said that, i have cats and fish) but 'slavery' is a bit of a strong term? I dunno, i love animals, and value their lives, teach kids to be kind to small creatures (eg, dont pull the spider apart, let him run off home, etc) but i hesitate to think of putting an animal on equal par as a human. Then again, some people say whales are more intelligent then humans... and i value myself over a whale. :/ |
| Wiley 06.07.2011 15:15 |
mike hunt wrote: LAP wrote: Brian May is probably the most sincerest and genuine rock stars living! This man has no airs and graces and has a real general liking of fans, and we always read how he would take time out to sign autographs and talk to fans after concerts. He is not your typical big head-little brain guitar hero, who is dumb as dogshit and usually so full of shit it aint funny! Brian is the complete opposite! At the same time, he does not suffer fools lightly, and he is very quick to cut down any interviewer who tries to make a mockery of him or Queen! A true legend. Is that you Brian?...sometimes I think Queen member's visit this site and talk themselves up........ It can't be Brian. He doesn't sound angry or resentful about anything. |
| Catbert 08.07.2011 18:09 |
Yes GratefulFan, my cat is an awesome real cat, and I appreciate your comments. A quote from one of Brian's songs that he revealed years later was really about the death of his cat, seems relevant and maybe gives an insight into the man: "Her ways are always with me, I wander all the while, But please you must forgive me, I am old but still a child." All Dead, All Dead News of the World |
| GratefulFan 11.07.2011 13:23 |
All Dead All Dead is a wonderful composition - thanks for bringing it to mind in this context. It's easy I think to understand Brian as a sometimes-too-intense-for-his-own-good idealist that finds it difficult to comprehend and accept anything that feels like cruelty or indifference. I think many of us wrestle with the clash between what is and what should be in one way or another throughout our lives, so it's easy to feel empathy and admiration for his motives and intentions. But most of us require something from ourselves as well. We learn to recognize when our emotions threaten to swamp our reason and we step back far enough to find at least an intellectual grasp of opposing ideas or outcomes. Sometimes we end up learning and making adjustments. We allow time for reflection and make at least an attempt to see things through the eyes of others. Most importantly we recognize our own experience from which views are formed as being inherently limited. Brian May: Call yourselves conservationists? You are not conservationists. You are interfering blunderers, trying to restore a situation which has already disappeared. You do not care for any animal - so do not pretend that you do. All you care about is some fanciful conceit in which you, the heroes, are playing God ... trying to re-create what you regard as a desirable world. For who? STOP THE KILLING !!!! ...... YOU must be stopped - you stupid, stupid, insensitive, ignorant pseudo-scientific people. (Full post on Soapbox here) That was addressed to the conservationist in the mink article who most would instinctively understand has a difficult, unpleasant and thankless job in culling the mink who are devastating the local ecosystem. A tone and intent representative of the thinking he promotes around people simply carrying out some aspect of lives quite different than his. There are a hundred things to deeply admire about Brian May; we're truly lucky music fans. A hundred things to admire, but I don't think the quality of his insight or his treatment of people in the course of seeking improved conditions for animals are among them. |