| teddi2002 12.01.2011 14:17 |
Hello! Recently I read a web page implying that the queen concert in Golders Green in fact was broadcasted in SQ matrixed quadraphonic sound. Of course I had to check with an SQ decoder and indeed; there is quadraphonic sound in that recording, the only big difference I heard was that the guitar is panned in the rear channels, and almost muted (at least in some parts) in the fronts. My question follows; Would it be OK for me to upload the fantastic "Royalties at the Hippodrome" by Pittrek decoded into a multitrack FLAC or Wav file (since I don't have the software neccesary for authoring a DVD-audio, and I prefer it lossless)? your sincerely teddi2002 |
| pittrek 12.01.2011 15:00 |
Sounds very interesting. So you basically plan to upload 4 mono files, each representing a single channel ? Can this be used for "fixing" Freddie's vocals ? Because that would be awesome :-) |
| Thistle 12.01.2011 15:25 |
Would be interesteing to hear each channel - and if Pittrek is right, and Freddie's vocals can be "fixed", it would sound absolutely stunning. I've always been a big fan of this show anyway, and Peter's "Royalties" version is fantastic. |
| teddi2002 12.01.2011 15:26 |
Well, I could either upload the single channels as multiple (several) flac files or as a multichannel file (single file containing all the channels). Regarding the vocal issue, I think there is little to be done, but I would gladely be proven wrong about that. With the guitar slightly muted, it is easier to hear the vocals, but the bass and drums are still quite loud compared to the vocals. I'm glad that you find this interesting, and perhaps I'll upload it already tomorrow, if it's done by then; decoding SQ takes several hours and uploading will have to be to an internet server, probably megaupload, as with my internet connection, torrent would take probably weeks. kind regards teddi2002 |
| brians wig 12.01.2011 19:36 |
4x single channels would be great please! Anyone then wanting them as a .wav encoded dts surround file to burn to CD could make their own. There's software available free on the net for doing just that! Thanks!!! |
| pittrek 13.01.2011 00:29 |
Thanks a lot, teddi2002, I'd love to hear it |
| The Real Wizard 13.01.2011 01:03 |
Quadrophonic... interesting. This would perfectly explain why Freddie's vocal is buried.. it's in the other two channels. Looking forward to developments here.. |
| Wilki Amieva 13.01.2011 05:20 |
I think I can author a DVD-Audio. That would be lossess. |
| Bad Seed 13.01.2011 06:54 |
But Quadraphonic could be played and heard normally on both stereo and mono equipment, right? Im no expert on this, but is it possible that although the radio transmission would have sounded normal, it could'nt be recorded (without loosing channels) onto a stereo cassette? An interesting read here link Would be nice if QP could do something similar |
| Wilki Amieva 13.01.2011 08:42 |
I do own an original BBC transcription disc. I will look into this. Thanks! |
| GinjaNinja 13.01.2011 11:50 |
Well, I had a go at decoding "Ogre Battle" with a few simpler steps in Audacity. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. Producing the "rear" channels, I found that much of the guitar had been greatly reduced in volume. The guitar was also centred rather than panned across the two channels. The vocal sounded a lot clearer. I then simply merged these two "rear" tracks with the original. In my opinion, the vocal sounds less buried than before. Whether I'm just hearing what I want to hear or not, the Quadraphonic decoding seems to work. If anyone could give it a listen and tell me if they think the vocal is clearer, It'd be much appreciated. The source I used was Pittrek's merge: link |
| teddi2002 13.01.2011 13:08 |
Everything is now done, the rar is being uploaded to megaupload, and in a few hours, it will be available for you. Regarding Wilki Amieva's offer to author a dvd-audio, I would really appreciate that, since as far as I know, there's no free software doing that available. regards teddi2002 |
| pittrek 13.01.2011 13:17 |
teddi2002 - great work GinjaNinja - I don't have my original version with me right now but the sample you posted sounds great |
| Wilki Amieva 13.01.2011 13:32 |
I would like know which Adobe Audition script, if any, did you use to decode SQ (there are several). |
| Wilki Amieva 13.01.2011 13:37 |
By the way, it seems there were quite a bunch of quad broadcasts between 1973 and 1977: link Queen it's not listed in it, but there are lot of well-known names (artists and also programmes). |
| teddi2002 13.01.2011 14:07 |
I can't find the link to the thread I downloaded it from, but it was titled something like "SQ decoding in Adobe Audition 3.0" and required an additional phase shift plug-in. I think it's the "first" complete script available (of two that I know of). I modified it slightly because the original could only decode 96 kHz files. My reference is the web page link regards teddi2002 |
| Wilki Amieva 13.01.2011 14:55 |
That should be: link That is a perfect script. You can also achieve excellent (and, perhaps, faster) results with SQdecode 1.2: link Anyway, please bear in mind that the SQ-encoded audio should have not been tempered with if you want to extract the maximum amount of surround information from it. |
| teddi2002 13.01.2011 15:17 |
The only thing I did to the files was to decode them, and I don't think pittrek's "remastering" injured any sq information. Regarding the different decoding methods, I think that the scripts for Audition features greater seperation than anything else that I've tried, since most decoders use the "passive method", featuring a seperation of 3 db, while the script for audition features a "logic method" (although not similiar to dolby's pro logic). kind regards teddi2002 |
| The Real Wizard 13.01.2011 15:21 |
The sample is certainly an improvement. Out of curiosity I converted both versions to mono, and after evening out the levels they sounded identical. So in short, is this a shifting around of the channels or is it phase removal? Or phase removal via channel shifting? In headphones the phase effect is gone in GinjaNinja's version.. it's a much more stable stereo sound. So, I guess what I'm asking is... have you guys managed to create four separate channels out of a single stereo recording? How is this physically possible? |
| Wilki Amieva 13.01.2011 15:44 |
teddi2002 wrote: I think that the scripts for Audition features greater seperation than anything else that I've tried, since most decoders use the "passive method", featuring a seperation of 3 db, while the script for audition features a "logic method" Hmmm... not quite... Also remember that "F/R separation" is not exactly the same as "surround information extraction". Pittrek's remastering COULD BE very detrimental to SQ-encoded information - that depends on what he did. Obviously any kind of phase correction will probably wipe most of such data, but also tiny little things like adjunting the relative levels of each channel or the DC offset will affect the results when decoding. |
| GinjaNinja 13.01.2011 15:58 |
@ SirGH I did it using phase adjustment in Audacity. I'm not quite sure how it works, but I'll tell you the process. I duplicated the track, then swapped around the stereo channels in one. I then adjusted the Phasing by 90 degrees. After merging these tracks with the originals, this gave me the "front" (as Teddi2002 named them) channels. These lacked the panned guitar and the levels was noticeably lower. I wasn't quite sure how to obtain the "rear" channels, to be able to properly mix, so I re-imported the original, and just mixed this in with the "front" channels. If anyone wants the rest of the tracks doing, I'll give it a go. Whether it will work better with Teddi's SQ files, I'll have a listen. Hope I explained that clearly :) |
| The Real Wizard 13.01.2011 16:22 |
You did... thanks. Now I just have to internalize it.. this concept is pretty new to me.. :-) |
| brians wig 13.01.2011 17:40 |
Wilki Amieva wrote: By the way, it seems there were quite a bunch of quad broadcasts between 1973 and 1977: link Queen it's not listed in it, but there are lot of well-known names (artists and also programmes). --------------------------------------------------- Ironically enough, I downloaded one of those Alice Cooper concerts yesterday that someone has unpicked and put on a DVD-A. Funny how two concerts have appeared at the same time when before very few people knew they were Quad! |
| GinjaNinja 13.01.2011 18:24 |
Vocal restoration is up link I've used the same technique as with Ogre Battle for all of the tracks, some came out better than others. Enjoy! |
| pittrek 14.01.2011 00:51 |
Wilki Amieva wrote: teddi2002 wrote: I think that the scripts for Audition features greater seperation than anything else that I've tried, since most decoders use the "passive method", featuring a seperation of 3 db, while the script for audition features a "logic method" Hmmm... not quite... Also remember that "F/R separation" is not exactly the same as "surround information extraction". Pittrek's remastering COULD BE very detrimental to SQ-encoded information - that depends on what he did. Obviously any kind of phase correction will probably wipe most of such data, but also tiny little things like adjunting the relative levels of each channel or the DC offset will affect the results when decoding.I have done nothing, I just joined the best available sources together. Remastering of the main source was done by stark, and I don't remember from memory what has he done :-) |
| Wilki Amieva 14.01.2011 05:02 |
Indeed. He did the remastering. |
| Soundfreak 14.01.2011 05:34 |
Interesting topic! A while ago I got hold of the Bootleg "As it began" with the most complete version of this concert I heard so far. But it was obvious that there was something wrong with the guitar in the mix, as it was widened by phase-reversing. As no radio-soundman would do something like that nor Queen ever used that effect I always wondered, where it came from. I somehow doubt that this concert was broadcast in Quad, cause then it would have been mentioned in the talk of the radiospeaker hosting this show. And they might have played with the echo unit in Son & Daughter, which would have been a highlight for a Quad-broadcast. Also I remember that in those days "dummyhead stereo" was more attractive in Radio as more listeners could make use of it. Who owned a radio that could receive quadrophonic signals in the early 70s when even stereo was quite rare? I also tried to reduce the phase mistake by creating a third track with reversed phase so it would erase most of the "wrong" guitar track. This in the end brought the guitar to a slightly lower level and more natural sound. But it didn't help too much to bring Freddie up to the front. Which probably is impossible as there is too much "room" on his voice. It's like an audience recording from the back row. You can add some EQ but you can't get "nearer"... Thanks for this "Ogre Battle" version, different from my result but also a good way to go. Hope one day the mystery around this recording can be solved. |
| Wilki Amieva 14.01.2011 05:56 |
The "phase issues" are consistent with SQ encoding. |
| Soundfreak 14.01.2011 07:52 |
Quote: The "phase issues" are consistent with SQ encoding. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Depending on what kind of encoding is used it might make sense. But an absolute rule in public radio was and still is, that every format has to be compatible with mono. Which does not work with this recording being "a nightmare" in mono and also in stereo. So it's hard to imagine, that they broadcast something, that was only audible for a handfull of people while the majority heard a concert with the singer in another room..;-) |
| Wilki Amieva 14.01.2011 08:07 |
Both SQ and QS were labeled (an marketed) as "stereo-compatible" and "mono-compatible". That means that you CAN hear them in stereo or mono, but obviously there WERE issues. From Wikipedia: "The early SQ decoders could not produce more than 3dB of separation from front to back. Early "Logic" circuits were introduced to enhance separation to 20dB, but provided poor performance, very noticeable gain-pumping and an unstable 'swaying' soundfield. The SQ system also faced resistance from broadcasters since, while essentially a two-channel system and totally stereo-compatible, it could have substantial mono compatibility problems, which posed serious problems with all televisions and monophonic radios of the era. [...]" Apparently, the SQ format met the BBC standards - as there were a lot of broadcasts in that format. Some of them are just reported as such, but there are also a lot of them that were announced as such at the time. Eventually, the issues in stereo and mono compatibilty, prompted BBC engineers to develop the Matrix H format. |
| therhyeman 14.01.2011 10:07 |
I'm pretty sure that this wasn't broadcast by the BBC in quad - not in 1973 anyway. As far as I know, their first quad broadcast was the Deep Purple concert in May 1974 (mixed and broadcast in June). Tim |
| GinjaNinja 14.01.2011 10:13 |
This is what Stark said about his original remastered share: **This recording was restored by Stark in January 2007 using Har-bal equalisation. Levels between L&R channels were corrected, and a Waves L2 Limiter was used to bring levels back up to the top. No dynamic range was lost. Many thanks to the original uploader. ** I don't think editing like this would affect the phasing too badly if at all |
| The Real Wizard 14.01.2011 10:58 |
therhyeman wrote: "I'm pretty sure that this wasn't broadcast by the BBC in quad - not in 1973 anyway. As far as I know, their first quad broadcast was the Deep Purple concert in May 1974 (mixed and broadcast in June)." Then the question is, how many times was this concert broadcast? It was broadcast on the radio in Cleveland in March 1975... so... at least once more, anyway. |
| therhyeman 14.01.2011 17:54 |
Perhaps it was recorded in quad with America in mind then, as reading that list King Biscuit and the like were already pioneering quad broadcasting over there. Meanwhile, it does seem like this was an early attempt by the BBC that went wrong :) At least it solves the mystery as to why Freddie is so quiet. For years I've wondered how the BBC mixing guy could have deliberately mixed him down. But surely they did a stereo mix as well? Both the quad Deep Purple and Barclay James Harvest concerts (at least) from mid 1974 have been released on CD and sound fine, taken from stereo tapes, as far as I know. Did no one listen to this mix before broadcast??! |
| therhyeman 14.01.2011 17:57 |
Soundfreak wrote: But it didn't help too much to bring Freddie up to the front. Which probably is impossible as there is too much "room" on his voice. It's like an audience recording from the back row. You can add some EQ but you can't get "nearer"... Thanks for explaining that, soundfreak. I thought I was going deaf, as while I can hear the differences in the guitar, Freddie sounds exactly the same to me!! |
| Wilki Amieva 15.01.2011 16:38 |
**This recording was restored by Stark in January 2007 using Har-bal equalisation. Levels between L&R channels were corrected, and a Waves L2 Limiter was used to bring levels back up to the top. No dynamic range was lost. Many thanks to the original uploader. ** I don't think editing like this would affect the phasing too badly if at all It wouldn't affect too much the phase of each channel, but it would definetely affect the outcome of the channel combination and the decoding of the SQ surround information. |
| OwenSmith 08.04.2012 11:47 |
teddi2002 wrote: Hello!Recently I read a web page implying that the queen concert in Golders Green in fact was broadcasted in SQ matrixed quadraphonic sound.No matter how hard I try I cannot find any source for the above. Can you post an address for it? |
| teddi2002 08.04.2012 17:07 |
OwenSmith wrote: No matter how hard I try I cannot find any source for the above. Can you post an address for it?I'm sorry, it was quite some time ago, and I did not save the link. I think that I was looking through the website link and in a link from there, I found a list over quadraphonic broadcasts, and I surprisingly found this concert in that list. The source we all have is indeed SQ-encoded, or else the decoding would not affect the material in the way it did. |
| OwenSmith 10.04.2012 11:03 |
It's just that I found a picture of the BBC Transcription Disc label for this concert and it doesn't say SQ, whereas some other BBC Transcription Discs clearly do. I guess it depends on how consistent they were with the labelling. I've been looking on the QQ website but thanks for the tip that I'm looking for a list of broadcasts. Some of the remastering has badly affected the SQ encoding, the sound field jumps at the remastering cuts. I'm working exclusively from the "Pop Spectacular" rip which while cut is direct sourced from the transcription disc and is giving more consistent SQ decode results. |
| OwenSmith 13.04.2012 15:43 |
If you look towards the end of this thread on the Quadraphonic Quad forums: link it seems it is unlikely this concert is SQ encoded. I found the original entry on the list of quad radio shows but there are lots of inaccurate lists. The transcription disc label is definitely stereo. Also the guy that wrote the Adobe Audition scripts did a decode and says that the result doesn't sound intentional, just stuff naturally out of phase (it happens all the time, otherwise Pro Logic II Music wouldn't ever work). |
| teddi2002 14.04.2012 03:54 |
I think that it sounds very strange that the guitar would just naturally be 90 degrees out of phase, and just decode as well as it does through the SQ-decoding methods. Natural phase shifts are as far as I know not that great, rather a couple of degrees, and never this constant. I think it's more likely that there was a mistake done by someone somewhere at the bbc. Although I could be terribly wrong, this is just my thought. |
| OwenSmith 15.04.2012 09:33 |
Well there's certainly one mistake somewhere given how quiet Freddie is in the mix. Another mistake is entirely possible (guitar out of phase, or SQ encoded but never marked as such). |