lifetimefanofqueen 02.11.2010 13:04 |
ok, idk if i spelt it, but hey brian says hes going to become vegan, so he cant drink milk, eat cheese, or wear anything that comes from an animal, that guy truely stays by his word and is very into animal rights, infact VERY much, i think its awesome that hes so interested in this and its his passion, so what do we all think about this? |
jamster1111 02.11.2010 14:42 |
If he becomes a vegan then he better not become one of those annoying vegans who try to talk other people into becoming vegans by saying that meat is bad for you. If not, it's fine and he's fully entitled to do so. |
thomasquinn 32989 02.11.2010 14:55 |
1) There is nothing wrong with vegetarianism. It's a perfectly possible way to have a healthy, balanced diet. 2) Vegans are f*cked up! It is not possible to get all the required nutrients from a vegan diet without taking dietary supplements, and I don't exactly consider pills as part of your dinner healthy. Humans were designed as omnivores - there are limited ways around this, avoiding meat in favour of dairy for instance, but pretending you're a herbivore is just plain unhealthy. |
juan1921 02.11.2010 16:58 |
Actually, humans weren't designed as anything. We're the product of millions of years of evolution, conditioned by lots of factors. So, even though it may be right to say that being a vegan prevents you from acquiring the necessary nutrients, it's not crazy to think that after several generations of related vegans, bodies might start adjusting in order to further the existance of the species. Anyway, good for Brian if he's doing what he wants. Cheers! |
lifetimefanofqueen 02.11.2010 17:42 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: 1) There is nothing wrong with vegetarianism. It's a perfectly possible way to have a healthy, balanced diet. 2) Vegans are f*cked up! It is not possible to get all the required nutrients from a vegan diet without taking dietary supplements, and I don't exactly consider pills as part of your dinner healthy. Humans were designed as omnivores - there are limited ways around this, avoiding meat in favour of dairy for instance, but pretending you're a herbivore is just plain unhealthy. U MEAN BEING VEGAN CAN DAMAGE UR HEATH!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DONT DO IT BRIAN!!!!!!! I DONT WANT U TO DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wait wait wait, dose it kill? |
john bodega 02.11.2010 19:16 |
Yep. In people over the age of 60, veganism is actually very, very lethal. Brian probably has about eight months left. By the time he's done being a vegan, he'll probably look like THIS: link so I'd get the farewell cards together folks. This is a day of mourning. |
lifetimefanofqueen 02.11.2010 20:03 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Yep. In people over the age of 60, veganism is actually very, very lethal. Brian probably has about eight months left. By the time he's done being a vegan, he'll probably look like THIS: link so I'd get the farewell cards together folks. This is a day of mourning. ============================================ OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DONT LEAVE ME BRIAN DONT LEAVE MEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN YOU ANIMALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if that happens im gonna be a combination of this link link link link |
The Real Wizard 02.11.2010 21:10 |
While humans have evolved to be omnivores, we also possess something that no other organism has: self-realization. Unlike anything else we share the planet with, we have the capacity to have awareness, leading to the ability to make choices that are not only based on mere survival. It is very difficult to live a vegan lifestyle healthily, but it can be done. I myself am not a vegan, but I completely admire anyone who makes the choice to live a life without acting at the expense of animals. |
Joeker 02.11.2010 22:13 |
Roger Taylor: I fuckin' beat my meat, so what? |
rhyeking 02.11.2010 22:30 |
All things in moderation, including moderation. Which means we're allowed the occasional excess. My personal opinion is that veganism is an extreme lifestyle choice, but it's everyone's right, just as eating meat, milk, honey and wearing leather is as well. Where it gets too extreme is when it's done for political or social reasons alone, based on the belief that humans are somehow disqualified from consuming or profiting from other lifeforms because we have big brains. I believe that's just silly. More over, it conveniently fails to address why, say, eating meat is wrong but building houses out of trees is acceptable. Trees are just as alive as animals. Vegans I've met live by the rule that if it has a face you can't kill/eat it. I find this incredibly self-serving, especially given the symbiotic relationship between all plant and animal life. My feeling is that veganism in this extreme is a set of arbitrary philosophical lines drawn around practitioners to salve some middle-class guilt complex. Does any of this apply to Dr. May? I can't begin to guess and would never presume to. Like I said, it's his choice and I respect it. |
tcc 02.11.2010 23:15 |
I think Brian misses Freddie a lot. That is why he is getting into so many things to keep himself occupied. |
jamster1111 02.11.2010 23:32 |
I agree with the Quinn guy. He's right. You need things like dairy and meat for your health especially later in life...or at least you need dairy. |
Dane 03.11.2010 03:05 |
As a Microbiologist studying metabolism, Darwinist, amateur psychologist, semi-Buddhist and most of al FRIEND.. Please Brian, don't, this will only help deterioration of your brain capacity, leaving you unaware of the eventfull years between 1966 and 1991. Our canine teeth say it all. |
lifetimefanofqueen 03.11.2010 03:29 |
well, Brians a clever guy, lets all hope he makes the right choice and is ok link |
Holly2003 03.11.2010 07:10 |
I wish Brian all the best. On a side note, I have stopped eating tuna as they are caught in drift nets which kill lots of dolphin. However, I have started eating dolphins, so it feels like I'm maintaining some sort of karmic balance. |
Amazon 03.11.2010 10:37 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "Yep. In people over the age of 60, veganism is actually very, very lethal. Brian probably has about eight months left. By the time he's done being a vegan, he'll probably look like THIS: link so I'd get the farewell cards together folks. This is a day of mourning." LOL! Great post! :D |
The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 10:38 |
rhyeking wrote:
Trees are just as alive as animals. No, they are not. Animals have interactive abilities, and can exercise stimulus and response. Trees are alive, but they can only take in outside stimulus. They cannot respond. That said, plenty of people build concrete homes as a viable alternative to cutting down trees. These are often the kinds of people who generate their own power, too. These choices have nothing to do with being self-serving. They want to make socially-conscious choices, without having to benefit at the expense of something or someone else. This is the very opposite of being self-serving. |
GratefulFan 03.11.2010 11:19 |
Sir GH wrote: No, they are not. Animals have interactive abilities, and can exercise stimulus and response. Trees are alive, but they can only take in outside stimulus. They cannot respond. ==================================== Plants most certainly can, and do, respond. An excerpt from a great article I read last year in the New York Times: But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to “committed vegetarians” and “strong ethical vegans,” we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot. This is not meant as a trite argument or a chuckled aside. Plants are lively and seek to keep it that way. The more that scientists learn about the complexity of plants — their keen sensitivity to the environment, the speed with which they react to changes in the environment, and the extraordinary number of tricks that plants will rally to fight off attackers and solicit help from afar — the more impressed researchers become, and the less easily we can dismiss plants as so much fiberfill backdrop, passive sunlight collectors on which deer, antelope and vegans can conveniently graze. It’s time for a green revolution, a reseeding of our stubborn animal minds. Read the whole thing: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=3 |
thomasquinn 32989 03.11.2010 11:28 |
juan1921 wrote: Actually, humans weren't designed as anything. We're the product of millions of years of evolution, conditioned by lots of factors. ======= I was using a common metaphor, as you probably guessed. As to whether or not evolution, supposing that it is not controlled by any preconception whatsoever, amounts to design we can debate. |
thomasquinn 32989 03.11.2010 11:30 |
Sir GH wrote: rhyeking wrote:
Trees are just as alive as animals.
No, they are not. Animals have interactive abilities, and can exercise stimulus and response. Trees are alive, but they can only take in outside stimulus. They cannot respond. ======= I'm afraid that just isn't true. Trees are known to communicate chemically, which is not really too different from what many animals including humans do in many ways. |
The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 11:41 |
GratefulFan wrote:
link
Awesome article. Lots learned.
ThomasQuinn wrote:
I'm afraid that just isn't true. Trees are known to communicate chemically, which is not really too different from what many animals including humans do in many ways.Then I stand corrected. But this should not be a reason to condemn vegans for not including plants in their lifestyle choices. At least vegans are trying to make a difference, unlike the critic who is likely making none. That'd be like condemning Mandela for not curing AIDS. |
Amazon 03.11.2010 11:53 |
I have no problem with vegetarianism. If people want to do it, it's their choice. Personally I would never become a vegetarian. I come from a family of doctors who do not look kindly upon vegetarianism, and two of my relatives had to resume eating meat for health reasons. Plus, I love eating meat. :D My relatives' experiences aside, it is entirely possible to live on a Vegetarian diet. I'm sure people can even do so on a Vegan diet, however I imagine it would be incredibly difficult; and while people can do whatever they want, my personal opinion is that a Vegan diet is far too unbalanced. One of my friends is a Vegan, and I can't help but feel sorry for her children who miss out on alot of really fun food. My biggest problem with Vegetarians/Vegans is that many (not all) are incredibly morally self-righteous. I have no problem if you don't eat meat, but don't pretend that you care more about animals than I do or that you are doing what you are doing for the good of the world. Too many people think caring about animals = not eating meat. It's nonsence. I eat meat, I love animals, and there is no contradiction. People have every right to be Vegan/Vegatarian; just don't pretend that you care more about aminals than non-meaters and that you are morally superior. |
Marknow 03.11.2010 11:55 |
Hats off to Brian, we are all free to live as we see fit. You would have to wonder though, what value Brian attaches to this decision on a personal level. Six decades of happily consuming meat and using product from animal skin, and then a sudden change. Not many people in their 60's make lifestyle choices like this, it's usually a choice people make earlier on in life, when the choice can have some kind of an impact. He might as well have given up chewing gum Still though, more burgers for me. I'll give up meat in 30 years or so when I'm in my 60's, and my body can barley process it anyway, just like Bri. Love Brian to bits, I really do, but you can't help but get the feeling he is one of these guy's that loves the smell of his own farts. |
coops 03.11.2010 12:17 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: 1) There is nothing wrong with vegetarianism. It's a perfectly possible way to have a healthy, balanced diet. 2) Vegans are f*cked up! It is not possible to get all the required nutrients from a vegan diet without taking dietary supplements, and I don't exactly consider pills as part of your dinner healthy. Humans were designed as omnivores - there are limited ways around this, avoiding meat in favour of dairy for instance, but pretending you're a herbivore is just plain unhealthy. Your second point is totally untrue. I suggest you do some research. People refrain from eating meat for a lot of reasons. I have been a veggie for a long time now, but do not think people should not eat meat. I hate the way anaimals are for the most part mistreated, and do not want to participate in that mistreatment by buying meat. Knowing that a calf may be contained in a cage for a year(a cage so small so small it cannot scratch itself) so the veal is lean and tender is cruel to my way of thinking. I could not eat veal knowing how it came about and justify the cruelty coz it tastes good. Pointing this out to meat lovers is often considered extreme. I guess its better just not to know. Its ironic how many meat eaters are disgusted by cruelty to cats and dogs though. Just sayin |
coops 03.11.2010 12:25 |
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The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 12:31 |
Amazon wrote:
I eat meat, I love animals, and there is no contradiction. Sure there is. You can't unequivocally love animals and be in favour of certain animals being drugged and living in horrible conditions before they're killed for your consumption. You may love animals, but you don't love *all* animals. At best, you love the animals you don't eat, and you love tasting the animals you do eat. I agree that vegetarianism isn't the only way to show love for animals, but unless the person doing the complaining about the vegetarian/vegan stance is someone whose life is devoted to the well-being of animals in one way or another, they have no right to complain about those who are making some kind of a difference. Vegetarians and vegans absolutely do have the right to feel and state a moral superiority to those who do eat meat, because every day one less animal goes through the torture, creating one less animal to enter the supply and demand cycle. They are doing their part. Meat eaters are not, at least in that respect. If a meat eater, for example, has spent time saving the habitat of some other kind of animal from human destruction, then we can have a debate over who is morally superior to whom. I don't kill people, and I therefore consider myself morally superior in that respect to people who do. Why should it be different for animals? |
lifetimefanofqueen 03.11.2010 12:38 |
Joeker wrote: Roger Taylor: I fuckin' beat my meat, so what? =============================== OMG Roger said that!?!?!?!?!? :O is there any video footage of him saying that? not that i dont believe you, i just wanted to know |
lifetimefanofqueen 03.11.2010 12:46 |
do u guys mean that u didnt know trees are just as alive as we are??!?!?!?! want proof, watch lord of the rings, the is an army of walkign trees! i have seen it AND heard it! thanks to lord of the rings :) their also kind trees to, they can be like little taxi's, well, BIG taxis, we just hop on a branch and say "mush!" and off they go! :D they also help by giving us oxigen! so plz dont kill the trees, their my friends :'( |
coops 03.11.2010 14:07 |
SIR GH, very well put sir. |
The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 14:29 |
Great post yourself, Coops! It does baffle me as well how some meat-eaters appear to be appalled by things like the seal hunt. Also, great post (and reality check) by juan1921. |
Pingfah 04.11.2010 04:11 |
rhyeking wrote: Trees are just as alive as animals. Sir GH wrote: No, they are not. Animals have interactive abilities, and can exercise stimulus and response. Trees are alive, but they can only take in outside stimulus. They cannot respond. =================================== Neither can a comatose patient, yet nobody would claim that they are not as "alive" as me. "life" isn't something that happens in degrees, something is either alive, or it isn't, you can't be "less alive". |
juan1921 04.11.2010 09:55 |
Thanks Sir GH! I really enjoyed reading your posts. You certainly presented me with a big problem since I eat meat and hate animal torture. The only thing I do for animals is taking part in castration and vaccination campaigns as a sort of population control in poor areas of Argentina. I will certainly need to reconsider doing something about it. Have a good day. |
The Real Wizard 04.11.2010 10:45 |
Pingfah wrote:
Neither can a comatose patient, yet nobody would claim that they are not as "alive" as me. "life" isn't something that happens in degrees, something is either alive, or it isn't, you can't be "less alive".Is that a scientific statement or a philosophical one? Is there a static definition for what life is and isn't? Is life a boolean principle? Plenty of scientists would disagree with you. Under some definitions of life, to be "inanimate" is not dead, but less alive. This could be an interesting discussion. |
The Real Wizard 04.11.2010 10:50 |
juan1921 wrote:
You certainly presented me with a big problem since I eat meat and hate animal torture. The only thing I do for animals is taking part in castration and vaccination campaigns as a sort of population control in poor areas of Argentina.Very few people manage to live a life without harming someone or something. You're clearly living a life of awareness and doing your part, and nobody in their right mind could ever fault you for that! We can't accomplish everything in one lifetime. I'm a meat-eater myself, but I do realize the moral issues surrounding it. As Aristotle said, the evolved man can entertain a concept without adopting it. But meat just tastes too damn good. Maybe when I'm a little older and wiser. Eating organic meat is at least a first good step, as the animal likely didn't live a difficult life. |
beautifulsoup 04.11.2010 23:25 |
No more leather trainers for him. Maybe he'll be one of those barefoot vegans... :-S |
Makka 06.11.2010 03:14 |
Well, each to their own. I hope Bri enjoys his vegan food whilst I chow down on some badger steaks!! :) |
djcamper 06.11.2010 05:13 |
Looks like If Brian will get flu, he probably decide not to take medications. Certainly, the moral choice will not be easy to make here. Destroying a lifeform which merely wants to keep living on, can leave indelible shame on your soul. Let's look at our history. Firstly people did exterminate viruses, afterwards they've started to exterminate other people. How you will look in the eyes of your children if that will happen again, knowing that you had the possibility to enroll the changes, launch the humanity into a new era of self-awareness and climb on the peak of morality where man has never set foot before? Stop the holocaust - ban medications! |
lifetimefanofqueen 06.11.2010 14:52 |
HE CANT BUY MEDICENE?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? BUT HE NEEDS IT HE'S OLD! NO BRIAN DONE BECOME VEGAN OH GOD NO! wait, he IS GOD! |
john bodega 07.11.2010 03:18 |
"Trees are alive, but they can only take in outside stimulus. They cannot respond." Bubkes, but I'm glad you said it because it sent me on a mad reading trail across the internet. I've always loved reading about that aspect of plant life. It's truly fascinating shit. Well - it's the sort of stuff I find fascinating. Maybe I'm getting old. |
john bodega 07.11.2010 03:19 |
RIP Brian May. If he'd only become vegan sooner, it might have lengthened his life and absolved him of his sins. |
Pingfah 08.11.2010 07:48 |
Sir GH wrote: Is that a scientific statement or a philosophical one? Is there a static definition for what life is and isn't? Is life a boolean principle? Plenty of scientists would disagree with you. Under some definitions of life, to be "inanimate" is not dead, but less alive. This could be an interesting discussion. ___________________________________ That's a good point actually, it does depend on how you apply the term particularly. A person may be dead, yet their body will consist of many living cells for some time to come after death. But if you consider that a cell is the basic functional unit of any living organism, the transition between when a cell is alive and when it's biological functions have completely ceased is measurable and quite certain. In that sense, life is an absolute. I was quite wrong to assume my definition was the only valid one. |
Monumento a Freddie 12.02.2012 17:49 |
lifetimefanofqueen wrote: ok, idk if i spelt it, but heybrian says hes going to become vegan, so he cant drink milk, eat cheese, or wear anything that comes from an animal, that guy truely stays by his word and is very into animal rights, infact VERY much, i think its awesome that hes so interested in this and its his passion, so what do we all think about this?Hi!, do you remember where you read about this? |
inu-liger 12.02.2012 19:10 |
Off-topic, but what is it with all these old threads being bumped lately?? |
Djdownsy 12.02.2012 19:35 |
I was thinking that myself actually, half the threads are old ones at the moment. I wouldn't mind, but they're all pretty much threads that are conversationally over. |
Makka 12.02.2012 20:27 |
link |
QueenIsAwesome-Fan 12.02.2012 20:44 |
I'm a vegetarian myself, so I think that's pretty cool. |
YAFF 12.02.2012 20:49 |
QueenIsAwesome-Fan wrote: I'm a vegetarian myself, so I think that's pretty cool.I was for about 9 years, half of which was vegan (and a militant one at that) I've tried to go back several times but failed, |
YAFF 12.02.2012 20:55 |
juan1921 wrote: Actually, humans weren't designed as anything.Says you. Life appears to be designed. Evolution is also obvious but has limitations. "muck to man" didn't happen by accident. Should we have a micro vs macro debate? Interestingly, according to the Bible man was created vegetarian. It was only after the "flood" that man was permitted to eat flesh. |
Marcos Napier 12.02.2012 22:22 |
Dane wrote: Our canine teeth say it all.Ditto. |
Jessica Rabbit 12.07.2012 05:35 |
What a load of rubbish coming from some people on this forum about vegans and where we get our vitamins from. I am vegan and have a very balanced diet with all the nutrients and vitamins I need to live a healthy live. I never get sick and feel fantastic....even more so because I know that I am not contributing to the animal holocaust. I applaud Brian May for going vegan and it's about time humanity evolved and stopped leeching off animals. If you want to drink milk, drink your own. Stop stealing someone else's. |
Jessica Rabbit 12.07.2012 05:39 |
We don't have canine teeth Dane. Do your homework. Enlighten yourself. You are corrent Juan 1921. God created man a vegan. It was indeed ONLY after the great flood that the eating of the flesh was permitted and only because vegetation was not readily available. Even so, strict rules for slaughter were given: not the tragedy of todays intensive farming situations. |
john bodega 12.07.2012 06:56 |
"God created man a vegan. It was indeed ONLY after the great flood that the eating of the flesh was permitted and only because vegetation was not readily available" Except for the fact that none of that shit actually happened. |
Pingfah 12.07.2012 08:43 |
If vegetation was not readily available, what were the animals eating? Were all animals carnivores? Did they all start yumming on each other when Noah kicked them off the Ark? If so, he probably should have taken more than 2 of each. What an idiot! |
Holly2003 12.07.2012 12:11 |
Jessica Rabbit wrote: We don't have canine teeth Dane. Do your homework. Enlighten yourself. You are corrent Juan 1921. God created man a vegan. It was indeed ONLY after the great flood that the eating of the flesh was permitted and only because vegetation was not readily available. Even so, strict rules for slaughter were given: not the tragedy of todays intensive farming situations. Wow! Ironic. |
Marcos Napier 12.07.2012 12:36 |
Yes, save the animals but kill the poor plants who can't even run. Not fair. If "god" created men as vegans, I'm seriously defective. |
cacatua 12.07.2012 15:10 |
I refuse to get started on veganism, but wonder if all of his leather guitar straps will go up for auction to raise money for Save Me, or will he consider these to be OK because they came before he was converted. |
Dan C. 13.07.2012 02:22 |
He's only doing it for the psychic powers. |
The Real Wizard 15.07.2012 15:02 |
Marcos Napier wrote: Yes, save the animals but kill the poor plants who can't even run. Not fair.Sarcasm aside, that's a very poor argument, my friend - and a very dangerous slope to be treading. That's like saying Mandela was a waste of time because he didn't cure AIDS too. People do what's important to them. Don't rain on their parade because they're not doing everything. At least some people are doing something. Even if there are ten defeats for every one victory, it still is a victory, and it makes a difference. |
maryb 12.08.2012 17:37 |
You are ill informed. Canine teeth in humans??? we have the remains of them but look at them in relation to a carnivore...you can catch an animal with these and tear it up can you? No ! Look even at the omnivore dog..and see how much bigger the canines are compared with human teeth, We have evolved ours out. Dairy is totally unnatural milk is for infants whether produced by mice, elephants cows or humans. To use milk of another species as adult involves great cruelty and is totally unnatural. The only supplement a vegan needs is B12 . this is because it is produced in the bacteria present on the dirty vegetation, the vegetarian animals we eat consume. Our vegetable are too clean so have no B12. Vegetarian apes in zoos also need B12 supplements as the food they are given is "too clean" Some humans need a little meat if they cannot digest other forms of protein, but farming meat is very cruel and to be avoided by any compassionate human being. i do not understand why people get so uptight when others want to stop the suffering caused by producing meat and dairy in vast quantities. |
lvq 12.08.2012 18:33 |
^^ That's some utter drivel right there. Go eat some dirty vegetables and see your B12 sky rocket. In truth, there would be no absorption of the B12. And there is no B12 in plants. And yes, humans do need their B12, unlike true herbivores, they don't produce it. Regardless, animal foods have been paramount to the human race'sevolution. It doesn't matter what we were when it all started, right now we are omnivores. I do have a problem with the footprint the animal industry leaves behind. But the solution is most definitely not veganism, which is totally out of whack with the human body's anatomy, but better practices. And a steady turn to less invasive foods that feed the masses. I have no problem with people going vegan for animal rights. I contest anyone who's doing it for health reasons. There is no proof that no meat is better than *some* meat as far as I'm aware of and man, it would take some serious proving that. |
cacatua 12.08.2012 19:21 |
ivq said: That's some utter drivel right there. Go eat some dirty vegetables and see your B12 sky rocket. In truth, there would be no absorption of the B12. And there is no B12 in plants. And yes, humans do need their B12, unlike true herbivores, they don't produce it. You are wrong on that. B12 is a substance in the soil. Animals consume it, as said, as a residue on plants, and carnivores get it from eating their flesh. It is now recommended by some that everyone take a B12 supplement who consumes factory-farmed animal products because the animals no longer have access to the soil, and thier feed is more refined. I was vegan, and still would be if my husband had gone along. I would only recommend eating animal products these days if you can get them from a source other than factory raised as that stuff is toxic. One really should only eat organically produced plant products too as the commercial stuff is devoid of nutrients, sometimes genetically modified and possibly contaminated with herbicides and pesticides. |
Mr.Jingles 19.08.2012 15:15 |
I hate to force my views on people, and I won't. However, I truly encourage anyone to watch the Paul McCartney documentary 'Glass Walls', which exposes the cruel realities of slaughter houses. It made me consider myself to work my way towards vegetarianism. As of right now, I'm a pescetarian-vegetarian so per say. link As for Brian May being a vegan, I wouldn't try that myself but I respect his decision. I personally have found that it's hard to find the same nutrients from dairy products on a strict vegan diet. While I respect vegans' decision and concern towards animals, I don't approve of the way how some of them (especially PETA members) have bullying tactics to force people into veganism. |
Sandravegan 28.09.2012 12:43 |
I have been vegetarian nearly ALL my life and VEGAN for around 7 years and I can tell you, you are all talking rubbish. |
Sandravegan 28.09.2012 12:43 |
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GratefulFan 28.09.2012 13:34 |
Blank posts never happen to carnivores. Just sayin'. |
pipijolk 28.09.2012 14:23 |
For me it's about how the animal is treated. If it is raised in a cruel, soulless manner, (mass production line) I won't eat the meat. This has lead me to not eating meat for two decades... However, if you're talking about hunting a deer in an over-populated area, due to lack of natural predators, then I wouldn't have a problem eating that venison. The deer is in its natural environment where they have to be aware of predators,(wolves/ cougars /coyotes etc.) They aren't mass produced in a sterile factory given no chance at life. In their natural environment they have a chance to escape or avoid, they can't do that in a steel cage. Ah, it's all about awareness of how we treat fellow living creatures and either agreeing that we can go overboard with cruelty or not caring about cruelty because animals are inferior beings who are meant to be devoured. |
Sandravegan 28.09.2012 14:59 |
Ha ha! Good one GratefulFan.............although I can't take responsibility for the double post, I only posted once but two showed up. :) I don't want to get into a discussion about veganism here but I just wanted to point out that being vegan is the healthiest way to live. Dairy fills your arteries with cholesterol and fat. Why do you think doctors recommend we eat 5 portions of fruit and vegetables a day to be healthy? I don't hear them saying eat 5 portions of meat and dairy a day.........infact they actively discourage this. I just hope Brian May is vegan...........he is a lovely person and has a good heart, so if he is then that is something to be proud of not scorned. :) |
The Real Wizard 28.09.2012 15:18 |
pipijolk wrote: For me it's about how the animal is treated. If it is raised in a cruel, soulless manner, (mass production line) I won't eat the meat. This has lead me to not eating meat for two decades... However, if you're talking about hunting a deer in an over-populated area, due to lack of natural predators, then I wouldn't have a problem eating that venison. The deer is in its natural environment where they have to be aware of predators,(wolves/ cougars /coyotes etc.) They aren't mass produced in a sterile factory given no chance at life. In their natural environment they have a chance to escape or avoid, they can't do that in a steel cage. Ah, it's all about awareness of how we treat fellow living creatures and either agreeing that we can go overboard with cruelty or not caring about cruelty because animals are inferior beings who are meant to be devoured.Excellent post. |
Heavenite 28.09.2012 21:18 |
Hard job being a vegetarianism, yet alone a vegan. I think blokes probably need meat more, but then again my niece's weight problems only started when she became a vegetarian. She takes supplments to get the nutrients she would otherwise miss, but all those carbs she needs to fill her up can't be good weightwise. |
Sandravegan 29.09.2012 01:25 |
I have to say I have never had a problem maintaining a healthy weight. I think if anyone can't achieve a healthy weight it's because they just aren't eating enough........no matter what diet they are on. The majority of people today are overweight and that's caused by their unhealthy non vegan diet. Heart disease and cancer have been linked to eating animal products.......it's just NOT a healthy thing to do. It's better for your health, the planet and of course the animals if you are vegan. :) |
Heavenite 29.09.2012 10:18 |
Hi Sandravegan Some people are lucky when it comes to their weight. I wonder if you are one of those. Others need to eat right to stay thin. Eating the right things proactively, which I assume is what you are saying, certainly helps with weight loss. And I think protein, usually in the form of meat, eggs or fish along with leafy green vegetables seems to work well in this respect. On the other hand, I've noticed my niece stocking up on high carb foods like potatoes and rice to satisfy her hunger, which relatively smallish amount of animal protein might well suppress more effectively because of the appetite retardant effect of protein. Just on your point about unhealthy non vegan diets, I agree that too much red meat is linked to inflammation which can lead to heart disease etc, although not too much meat and plenty of fish seems to be quite a good healthy combination because of the anti-inflammatory effects of the fish oils. I reckon you would need to be spot on with your diet and your supplements to get the same benefits from a vegan diet, because of the risk of deficiencies of particular vitamins, minerals and other nutrients. Havings said that, I am far from an expert on vegan diets. |
Sandravegan 30.09.2012 04:55 |
You are right Heavenite, some people are just lucky with their weight and others only have to look at food and they put on weight. If you Google the vegan diet you will learn that it contains ALL the protein, vitamins etc that the human body needs to be healthy. Afterall we are just eating food like everyone else. You may be surprised to learn that there are numerous vegan foods that contain protein for example. I for one have never been told that I am deficient in ANYTHING. I have had routine blood tests through the years and all come back perfectly normal. Plus, my cholesterol levels are very very low due to the fact that I am not consuming extra cholesterol from animal foods. I suppose I'm fighting a losing battle here trying to persuade you that being vegan is the way to go but as I said just Google some stuff about veganism and you will see that it's not so strange afterall. What's strange to me is the fact that adult human beings are still drinking the milk of another species. Milk that was designed for the young of that species. Now, that to me is weird. :) |
john bodega 30.09.2012 10:21 |
I eat what is put in front of me. |
Sandravegan 30.09.2012 12:12 |
Well, I suppose cannibals would say that too. :) |
Sandravegan 30.09.2012 12:15 |
Plus, it doesn't matter whether the animals are commercial raised to be killed or killed by a hunter...........animals should NOT be killed for humans to eat. They have a right to their lives just as we have a right not to be eaten by cannibals. |
tomchristie22 30.09.2012 19:58 |
I would see more reason in the whole thing if animals were considered equal to humans in other areas, but the fact is they're not. Animals inherently have lesser rights than humans, so it's kind of ridiculous, at least in my eyes, to claim that eating an animal is as bad as eating a human. Especially since eating animals has been culturally acceptable for thousands of years, whilst eating humans is fairly taboo. |
The Real Wizard 01.10.2012 00:17 |
tomchristie22 wrote: Especially since eating animals has been culturally acceptable for thousands of years, whilst eating humans is fairly taboo.Women were considered property for thousands of years too, and this was culturally acceptable. At least by men.. Our race, unlike any other, has the ability to make choices that go beyond basic survival. There are plenty of alternatives available to live a healthy life that isn't at the expense of other creatures. In fact, a fair portion of heart disease and cancer comes from animal products, and this is largely why more and more people are going vegan. |
Sandravegan 01.10.2012 03:19 |
I totally agree, just because something has been going on for thousands of years, doesn't make it right. Also, whether a living being is 'equal' to humans or not doesn't mean we should treat that living being with less respect and kill that living being. If we took that attitude further then we would treat other humans who we considered not equal to us in a similar unkind way. We keep 'pets' and love them like members of our own family, yet think nothing of killing other animals. Yet, in some countries of the world the very 'pets' we love so much are considered 'food'. The world is crazy and until ALL killing is stopped humans will never be able to progress to their full potential. We really should be more civilised. |
GratefulFan 01.10.2012 07:47 |
The Real Wizard wrote:I lost the other thread I intended to get back to where you were all depressing me with your parsing of animal rights issues, so I'll pick it up again here. :). Setting Brian May and his abuse of people, civil discourse and science aside for a moment, let me ask you this: you compared me on that thread to somebody who might have noisily argued for the continuing exploitation or inequality of black people in a previous time. Or something like that. It's not critically important as my point is that you and others seem to think of the practice of eating the flesh of animals as something that a more enlightened society should eventually leave behind as a relic of a more brutal and ignorant past, just as we've left behind the kind of attitudes and beliefs that permitted slavery and racial inequality. You've mentioned the treatment of women here today as well as another example. We now treat the principles of racial and gender equality as fundamental and inalienable human rights in our own societies and have defined them as universal rights through various bodies that address these issues. Given this history and your choice of these shameful and wrong headed past practices as parallels, would you, or anybody else who might like to weigh in, similarly support the idea of a legally enshrined basic right to life for animals when society is ready for it? A right to be protected from murder like humans essentially? I would guess yes as you've chosen as comparison principles that we do not view as matters of individual conscience but as inalienable rights. Is that correct? Would you support that?tomchristie22 wrote: Especially since eating animals has been culturally acceptable for thousands of years, whilst eating humans is fairly taboo.Women were considered property for thousands of years too, and this was culturally acceptable. At least by men.. Our race, unlike any other, has the ability to make choices that go beyond basic survival. There are plenty of alternatives available to live a healthy life that isn't at the expense of other creatures. In fact, a fair portion of heart disease and cancer comes from animal products, and this is largely why more and more people are going vegan. |
splicksplack 01.10.2012 08:14 |
Jessica Rabbit wrote: It was indeed ONLY after the great flood that the eating of the flesh was permitted and only because vegetation was not readily available.WHAT!?!?!?!?! Have you got fairies at the bottom of your garden as well? |
Sandravegan 02.10.2012 03:30 |
Yes, ALL living beings on this planet should have a basic right to life. :) |
GratefulFan 02.10.2012 07:16 |
Would it not then be incumbent on humanity to work towards a basic security guarantee for all creatures? Recalling that societies have gone to war over issues that are being held up as parallels and that we have imposed our will on mechanisms like Apartheid through economic and cultural war, should we not force animals not to eat other animals if all creatures have what you describe as a right to life? Imagine that we have developed technology such that a small chip can be safely implanted under a zebra's skin that emits a noise that lions cannot bear but that zebras cannot hear, for example. The technology doesn't matter, just imagine that it is safe and effective and can be adapted for all predator/prey pairs. We would of course replace the anachronistic, evil food chain stuff with vegan lion kibble, and that should also be assumed to be feasible and effective. Does that still feel right? |
Heavenite 02.10.2012 08:27 |
Good point. They do say that one day the lion is going to lie down with the lamb, but what is the lion going to eat? Practically speaking, the problem as I see it is that carnivores have short digestive tracts and wouldn't be able to absorb the meals that herbivores consume. And I hate to be silly, but what about spiders eating flies. Or do we draw the line at mammals? Humans are able to replace the foods we would otherwise eat because we understand nutrition. Does that mean it is incumbent on us to do so, since we have reached a higher level of consciousness than the lion or spider? Maybe, although I'm not really sure about that at all at this point. My own view at this point is that nature made the system what it is and therefore made the rules. I certainly didn't. In these circumstances I'm not going to feel guilty about the way it is. But if there was an acceptable way for me to go without meat, I might do it. But the loss of such foods as meat in my diet is unacceptable at this time. Maybe one day when lots more people are vegans or vegetarians or if I change my view, then I will act differently, but I can't see me changing my behaviour in the reasonably forseeable future. PS I spoke about my niece in my previous posts in this thread. Recently she has gone back to being a pescatarian. I suspect that this was motivated by the blowout in her weight since she became a vegetarian, although I have not asked her on this. I don't think she's all that happy about it, but ultimately I think she sees it as a case of putting her health first. Maybe when she's older and making her own meals she will go back to being a vegetarian. But at this point, her parents are still often making two meals because of her eating preferences. |
Sandravegan 02.10.2012 09:36 |
We humans are the ones on this planet who put ourselves 'above' other living beings. We should start with ourselves.............if we think we are 'superior' to other life forms then we should act accordingly and stop killing and eating other beings. It is not necessary to eat animals in order to live a healthy life, infact it is preferable not to eat animals if we are to obtain a healthy life. Maybe some time in the future if it were possible to have this miracle 'chip' that might be a good idea........I don't know. Just because animals in nature eat each other doesn't mean we have to aswell. If we are so superior to other animals why are we behaving exactly the same way they do then? Animals kill to survive............humans kill for greed and because they have no regard or empathy with other living beings. We as a race really should have progressed further from our caveman ancestors than we have. As far as your neice having weight problems while being vegetarian...........it has really nothing to do with her being vegetarian. What on earth was she eating? You can get overweight vegetarians you know. They eat a lot of cheese, butter, milk etc.......all foods that are not exactly healthy or slimming. Being vegan is the healthiest diet there is.......I and many, many others are living proof of that. :) |
john bodega 02.10.2012 12:50 |
"Women were considered property for thousands of years too" And it's going to take a lot of hard work to get things back to where they should be! |
The Real Wizard 02.10.2012 16:10 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "Women were considered property for thousands of years too" And it's going to take a lot of hard work to get things back to where they should be!Is there a place where I can donate? |
The Real Wizard 02.10.2012 16:16 |
GratefulFan wrote: Given this history and your choice of these shameful and wrong headed past practices as parallels, would you, or anybody else who might like to weigh in, similarly support the idea of a legally enshrined basic right to life for animals when society is ready for it? A right to be protected from murder like humans essentially? I would guess yes as you've chosen as comparison principles that we do not view as matters of individual conscience but as inalienable rights. Is that correct? Would you support that?Generally, yes. I may need a bit more educating on certain issues, like deer hunting. Some proponents for this practice claim that the deer population needs to be controlled, especially around cities. If it's for the safety of deer, that they don't get run over by cars (or hurt humans who are trying to swerve away from them), then it's probably a good idea that the hunting laws are in place. But if it's purely for the sport and enjoying the antlers on the wall and the venison salami on a sandwich, then these frivolous desires should not be worth more than their lives. |
Sandravegan 03.10.2012 03:41 |
I think, just like Brian May..........you'd make a great vegan The Real Wizard. :) |
Q NUT 09.10.2012 15:41 |
I hope Brian does not stick to this for health reasons. All the benefits attributed to a vegan diet in this thread are exaggerated. In fact vegetarians don't live longer than omnivores and in all likelihood is detrimental to most people. A healthy omnivorous diet is the way to go :) |
The Real Wizard 09.10.2012 20:42 |
Q NUT wrote: All the benefits attributed to a vegan diet in this thread are exaggerated. In fact vegetarians don't live longer than omnivores and in all likelihood is detrimental to most people.There is no shortage of propaganda from the meat and dairy industry to reinforce that view. But there is very little science to support it. It is now undebatable that a very high percentage of cases of heart disease and cancer come from animal products. |
Sandravegan 10.10.2012 03:03 |
I couldn't have put it better myself, The Real Wizard. :) |
Heavenite 10.10.2012 08:06 |
Hi Guys Obviously one thing about being alive is that we need to consume things that have been alive. So its a case of plants versus animals if we are to survive. I remember reading about the book The Secret Life of Plants which apparently says that plants having some sort of awareness as well. So it would seem that even vegetarians and vegans have to make a choice about which life forms they will consume. Presumably this is made on the basis of the different level of consciousness of animals compared to plants, But then again it all seems to be just a matter of degree. Regarding the issue of the respective diets you guys are talking about, I reckon its more a case of a buck each way. There is no doubt as I understand it that excessive animal products can cause problems like cancer and heart disease. But then again its necessary to eat a range of pulses and legumes etc to ensure that all types of essential amino acids are consumed. On the other hand, meat, chicken, fish and eggs each contain all of these. So it would seem to me that vegetarians need to be far more careful in what they eat in order to get proper nutrition. That doesn't mean its impossible of course.. One other point I mentioned earlier is that fish and shellfish also don't have the inflammatory risks that excessive use of red meat and other animal products does. So I guess in the end its a case eating a balanced diet whatever choices you make. And there is clearly no doubt that plant material needs to be a very significant part of that balance. |
thomasquinn 32989 10.10.2012 08:17 |
The Real Wizard wrote:Where are you going to get your B-vitamins as a vegan? You can get most of them from nuts and selected vegetables, but to get the amount your body needs, you'd need to consume something on the order of *two pounds* of nuts a day! Vitamin B12 is almost impossible to get without food supplements - which are made from animal products. You can't do without it, because without B12, your body won't produce red blood cells.Q NUT wrote: All the benefits attributed to a vegan diet in this thread are exaggerated. In fact vegetarians don't live longer than omnivores and in all likelihood is detrimental to most people.There is no shortage of propaganda from the meat and dairy industry to reinforce that view. But there is very little science to support it. It is now undebatable that a very high percentage of cases of heart disease and cancer come from animal products. Vitamins A and D are only found in animal products. You can't do without these either. Then there's calcium - if you can't have milk, that's going to cause trouble. Zinc - you can't do without it, and it's going to be difficult to get enough without animal products. Then there's Coenzyme Q10, which you can only get from red meat or dietary supplements produced from red meat. A deficiency of CeQ10 dramatically increases the chance of heart disease. I stand by what I posted a long time ago: I have a favorable opinion of vegetarianism, but veganism is unhealthy. If adults choose to become vegans that's their choice (like smoking or eating too much fat), but I am firmly of the opinion that raising children as vegans is child abuse. |
Q NUT 10.10.2012 08:42 |
Actually the science is on my side. The reason vegetarians seem to fare better than omnivores is because when people become vegetarians they adopt other healthy habits besides giving up meat i.e. exercise, giving up smoking, losing weight. Vegetarians generally live a healthier lifestyle than omnivores which is where the initial benefit comes from. In fact many studies have shown worse outcomes for vegetarians and not one shows that vegans/vegetarians live longer than omnivores! Remember also that these studies compare vegetarians to the average unhealthy omnivores not healthy ones! |
The Real Wizard 10.10.2012 11:32 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: raising children as vegans is child abuse.It's child abuse to teach your kids that it's possible to live not at the expense of animals? There are alternatives if you just look for them. Zinc is found in peanuts, dark chocolate and dried watermelon seeds. Vitamin A is found in a ton of vegetables. The most powerful source of vitamin D - the sun. It can be done. |
Q NUT 10.10.2012 14:12 |
thomasquinn is right. Vegetarians are more likely to be B-12 deficient than omnivores and studies consistently show this. Meat being the best source. Important amino acids such as carnosine, ALA etc. are only found in any meaningful amount in meat along with omega-3 and CoQ10. Contrary to what vegetarians may say many of these nutrients are very important for heart function! I sure as hell would not be feeding my child a vegan diet which would put him/her at risk for nutritional deficiencies. To me a healthy lifestyle is eating fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, meat, no smoking, regular exercise, keeping a handle on stress, good sleep. I think this is the sensible approach. Fad diets whether it's low carb, low fat, vegan or whatever are not going to be sustained by most people because people eventually end up having problems with them (whether it's health problems or other). I've tried a strict vegan diet myself about 8 years ago but luckily for me I started doing research and found out that most of the claims of vegetarianism are exaggerated and many times false., for example "protein causes bone loss", "vegetarianism increases lifespan", "humans can't digest meat" are just a few of the false claims. One more interesting thing. Many researches believe that meat was at least partly responsible for the development of our brain during evolution. So vegetarians have meat to thank that they are able to use their brain to criticize meat :) |
The Real Wizard 10.10.2012 14:39 |
Q NUT wrote: Vegetarians are more likely to be B-12 deficient than omnivores and studies consistently show this.The fact that a lot of vegetarians do not balance their diets well does not somehow give credence to the idea that we all must get these nutrients from animals when there are alternatives available. They just require a bit more research and effort. Many researches believe that meat was at least partly responsible for the development of our brain during evolution. So vegetarians have meat to thank that they are able to use their brain to criticize meat :)Hee hee !! But seriously - over time we can evolve away from something just as easily as we evolved into it. Evolution is not static, hence the term "evolve." |
Q NUT 10.10.2012 15:53 |
Right, so tell me where are you going to get all your amino acids, B vitamins, CoQ10, bio-available zinc, omega-3. All these are not available in any meaningful amount in plant foods and are extremely important for optimal health (mental health included!). So, tell me about these alternatives? Are you going to take a ton of supplements? |
GratefulFan 10.10.2012 16:08 |
It's less about CoQ10, B12, Zinc, iron, calcium, those little balls that form when you break a thermometer, etc. and more about the idea that veganism and vegetarianism is a personal choice. People who not only want to excuse themselves from the traditional food chain but everybody else along with them on the basis of their own personal beliefs have lost that perspective. |
Q NUT 10.10.2012 16:27 |
GratefulFan wrote: It's less about CoQ10, B12, Zinc, iron, calcium, those little balls that form when you break a thermometer, etc. and more about the idea that is veganism and vegetarianism is a personal choice. People who not only want to excuse themselves from the traditional food chain but everybody else along with them on the basis of their own personal beliefs have lost that perspective.I think your right. Real Wizard seems to be arguing from an ethical perspective whereas I just wanted to point out that those who argue for vegetarianism based on it being healthier are talking nonsense and it is in fact an unhealthy alternative to a healthy omnivorous diet. |
GratefulFan 10.10.2012 16:37 |
In the ethical argument the science is chosen to fit the already arrived at ethical conclusion, and any science that doesn't fit is ignored. It's about what science you can use to support a belief already formed on a very different plane. Then the ethic is presented as being the inevitable conclusion of the science. It's a neat trick if you're not looking too hard. |
john bodega 11.10.2012 06:52 |
It's not child abuse to raise a child on a vegan diet. But it is animal abuse to do the same to a cat. Man, I've met those people. They are TAPPED in the head. |
Q NUT 11.10.2012 08:32 |
Zebonka12 wrote: It's not child abuse to raise a child on a vegan diet.It can be argued that it is child abuse considering that you are putting your child at risk for nutritional deficiencies with serious consequences like impaired cognitive function and possible lasting damage. Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a serious problem which is why it is recommended that vegetarians take supplements - link The problems of vegetarianism are well documented both anecdotally and researched based if anyone bothers to look. |
GratefulFan 11.10.2012 11:27 |
If you feed your vegan child a vegan cat are you still kind of obnoxious? |
Q NUT 11.10.2012 11:42 |
GratefulFan wrote: If you feed your vegan child a vegan cat are you still kind of obnoxious?That would be unethical since you would be probably feeding your vegan child a sick cat (a carnivore) compounding the problem the child already faces from a vegan diet :) |
GratefulFan 11.10.2012 11:56 |
All worthwhile human ethics actually come from a substance called ethicalis obnoxicus which naturally occurs in both tofu and gelatin-free bear-free gummi bears. So I'm sure they're fine. |
Sandravegan 13.10.2012 03:09 |
It amuses me to read all you have been saying. You really have got those anti-vegan views well and truly stuck in your mindsets. With regard to the silly argument that plants have feelings too............that is debateable but even if they do, they don't have blood running through their veins and a beating heart. They are not independant on this earth to walk around and enjoy life. Animals are so like us, most of the animals we abuse have two eyes, and ears like us. They have a nose and a mouth, they have teeth, they have internal organs, just as we do. They feel pain, fear, panic, and also joy, love and contentment, (if we aren't killing them that is). I will worry about the plants when they start screaming out in pain and trying to run away from me when I want to eat them. I suggest you all do some proper research into the vegan diet.............just Google it. You will find that all of the outdated ideas you have are wrong. You go on about their not being sufficient vitamins/minerals in nuts and plants.........I think you'll find that's just not true. How come if I am not getting enough of the vitamins/protein/calcium/minerals you are all talking about, I am still very healthy? All blood tests return normal.........why is that? Infact, my doctor himself has said I am very healthy due to my vegan diet. I just hope you all think more seriously about this and don't be so quick to come to the conclusions that all meat eaters come to when discussing the vegan diet. I did it myself before I was vegan, I think it's a way of putting barriers in the way. We don't want to change even though we know there is a better way to live. |
Heavenite 13.10.2012 07:42 |
Hi Sandravegan I have taken you up on your recommendation to look into the matter a bit further and have checked out the info on Veganism on Wiki > link. It gives a largely positive description of veganism and its health benefits over the standard American diet, but it does also descibe the nutritional deficiencies that a vegan may face and the specific need for food combining or use of supplements that is necessary to deal wiith these issues. These issues are set out below: "Vitamin B12 Further information: Vitamin B12 deficiency The Vegan Society and Vegan Outreach recommend that vegans eat foods fortified with B12, such as fortified soy milk or cereal, or take a supplement. B12 is a bacterial product that cannot be found reliably in plant foods, and is needed for the formation and maturation of red blood cells and the synthesis of DNA, and for normal nerve function; a deficiency can lead to a number of health problems, including megaloblastic anemia.[7] [edit] Protein Proteins are composed of amino acids, and a common concern with protein acquired from vegetable sources is an adequate intake of the essential amino acids, which cannot be synthesised by the human body. While dairy and egg products provide complete sources for ovo-lacto vegetarians, the only vegetable sources with significant amounts of all eight types of essential amino acids are lupin beans, soy,[50] hempseed, chia seed,[51] amaranth,[52] buckwheat,[53] and quinoa.[54] However, the essential amino acids can also be obtained by eating a variety of complementary plant sources that, in combination, provide all eight essential amino acids (e.g. brown rice and beans, or hummus and whole wheat pita, though protein combining in the same meal is not necessary). A 1994 study found a varied intake of such sources can be adequate.[55] [edit] Iodine Further information: Iodine deficiency Iodine supplementation may be necessary for vegans in countries where salt is not typically iodized, where it is iodized at low levels, or where, as in Britain or Ireland, dairy products are relied upon for iodine delivery because of low levels in the soil.[45] Iodine can be obtained from most vegan multivitamins or from regular consumption of seaweeds, such as kelp.[56] [edit] Calcium Pumpkin seed-crusted lentil patties with roasted garlic mashed potatoes and salad. Vegans are advised to eat three servings per day of a high-calcium food, such as fortified soy milk, almonds, and hazelnuts, and take a calcium supplement as necessary.[46] The EPIC-Oxford study suggested that vegans have an increased risk of bone fractures over meat eaters and vegetarians, likely because of lower dietary calcium intake, but that vegans consuming more than 525 mg/day have a risk of fractures similar to that of other groups.[57] A 2009 study of bone density found the bone density of vegans was 94 percent that of omnivores, but deemed the difference clinically insignificant.[58] Another study in 2009 by the same researchers examined over 100 vegan post-menopausal women, and found their diet had no adverse effect on bone mineral density (BMD) and no alteration in body composition.[59] Biochemist T. Colin Campbell suggested in The China Study (2005) that osteoporosis is linked to the consumption of animal protein because he claims it causes acidosis in the blood. However, this claim has not been supported by any other clinical research or studies. [60] [edit] Vitamin D Vegan Outreach writes that light-skinned people can obtain adequate amounts of vitamin D by spending 10–15 minutes in sunlight each day; dark-skinned people 20 minutes; and the elderly 30 minutes. Otherwise, supplements of between 400 and 1,000 IU are recommended, because most vegan diets contain little or no vitamin D without supplements or fortified foods.[61] [edit] Iron The iron status of meat-eaters and vegans appears to be similar, and body absorption processes may adjust to lower intakes over time by enhancing absorption efficiency.[62] Molasses is a high-iron food source and many vegans take it in spoonfuls as an iron supplement. [edit] Omega-3 fatty acids To ensure adequate consumption of omega-3 fatty acids, Vegan Outreach advises vegans to consume 0.5 g of alpha-linolenic acid daily by eating, for example, 1/4 teaspoon of flaxseed oil, and to use oils containing low amounts of omega-6 fatty acids, such as olive, canola, avocado, or peanut oil.[63] [edit] Pregnancy, babies andchildren Vegan version of a salad popular in Russia, with wakame, root vegetables, avocados, and vegan mayonnaise. The American Dietetic Association considers well-planned vegan diets "appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy and lactation," but recommends that vegan mothers supplement for iron, vitamin D, and vitamin B12.[46][64] The Vegan Society recommend that vegan mothers breastfeed to enhance their child's immune system and reduce the risk of allergies.[65] Vitamin B12 deficiency in lactating vegetarian mothers has been linked to deficiencies and neurological disorders in their children.[66] Some research suggests that the essential omega-3 fatty acid a-linolenic acid and its derivatives should also be supplemented in pregnant and lactating vegan mothers, since they are very low in most vegan diets, and the metabolically related docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is essential to the developing visual and central nervous system.[67] A maternal vegan diet has been associated with low birth weight,[68] and a five times lower likelihood of having twins than those who eat animal products, though the article cited concludes that it is the consumption of dairy products by non-vegans that increases the likelihood of conceiving twins, especially in areas where growth hormone is fed to dairy cattle.[69] Several cases of severe infant or child malnutrition (resulting in spine malformation and fractures) and some infant fatalities have been reported in families in which parents fed their child and themselves a poorly planned vegan diet.[70] Dr. Amy Lanou, nutrition director of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and an expert witness for the prosecution in one case, wrote that vegan diets are "not only safe for babies; they're healthier than ones based on animal products." She wrote that "the real problem was that [the child] was not given enough food of any sort." So Veganism without the use of the relevant supplements and food combining would not seem to be a healthy option. With it, it seems that it may well be. In any event it does seem, as I think it was Grateful Fan who said, the case for veganism is an ethical one. And ultimately it is not a black and white one and can only ever be a matter of degree because we must eat other things that have lived in order to survive. From what I can gather, some think that this business about plants having feelings too is rubbish.Yet others have picked up what they think are emotional responses from plants. They do seem to communicate chemically, but I guess that doesn't have to mean they have the equivalent of what we would call emotions of course. Here is a Wiki article that discusses this issue in a bit of detail. link The information in the article seems to be inconclusive, although there are definitely many who would regard the matter of plants having "feelings" as being completely ridiculous. So to move away from eating the things that are most like us does seem to make some ethical sense I guess, as we know for sure that animals suffer when they are getting slaughtered. Although I do remember that some tribes used to thank the spirit of the animal they caught for giving up its life as a food source. So the question I would ask is did they know something we don't or were they simply deluding themselves and helping themselves feel better just after the moment they killed the animal. |
Sandravegan 13.10.2012 09:29 |
Hi Heavenite, I really don't think Wiki is the best place to find out about veganism. Try contacting the Vegan Society directly and ask any question you like regarding the health benefits of a vegan diet, they will be able to put your mind at rest. All I can say is, I have personal experience of the vegan diet.......something the writers on Wiki probably haven't. I know I don't need to take supplements. You mention B12, this is a long and complex topic...........I won't go into detail but B12 or the lack of it has only arisen because of our germ free lifestyle. Meat eaters too have to have their diets supplemented artificially if you like with iodine. Did you know that the food given to animals is supplemented with iodine to insure that humans get the required amount? That to me is just the same as B12 being supplemented. It is easy to get enough B12, protein and calcium from soya milk. If you compare the nutritional values of these things between cow's milk and soya milk you will see they are both the same. Propaganda has a lot to do with the information you posted about veganism. The meat and dairy industries are big money making concerns and therefore it is in their interests to put forward these outdated notions. I will ask you one question.............why am I and other vegans I know, who have been vegan for 20 or 30 years so healthy if we aren't getting adequate nutrition from our diet? |
Q NUT 13.10.2012 14:10 |
Hi Sandravegan, Vegan Society? Don't you think they will be a bit biased towards a vegan diet? I do not doubt your personal experience of the vegan diet which at least so far you haven't experienced any problems with. However this is anecdotal which also ignores the countless other people who have experienced problems with a vegan diet. Vegans may keep repeating that getting B12 is a from their diet is not a problem, however, research says otherwise and the consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency are very serious as I said before - link BTW I think you are confusing Meat Eaters with Omnivores. A good Omnivorous diet would consist of a wide range of fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds as well as meat thereby receiving a wide range of nutrients for optimal health. |
Heavenite 13.10.2012 17:38 |
Hi Sandravegan Here is a link to The Vegan Society regarding the issue of Vitamin B12. > link |
Heavenite 13.10.2012 18:05 |
The above article is definitely promoting the Vegan lifestyle and seems to be the article from which some of the information presented in the Wiki link is based. For instance, it says: "In over 60 years of vegan experimentation only B12 fortified foods and B12 supplements have proven themselves as reliable sources of B12, capable of supporting optimal health. It is very important that all vegans ensure they have an adequate intake of B12, from fortified foods or supplements. This will benefit our health and help to attract others to veganism through our example." It also talks about the risk of elevated homocysteine levels if a person is deficient in Vitamin B12. Surely The Vegan Society wouldn't be putting this stuff up if it was unnecessary. So Sandravegan, the question I would ask you is if you don't take supplements, then do you take foods that have been fortified in some way? Not sure if there is such a thing as a vegan supplier, and if so, whether they ensure that fortification of foods has already occurred. I certainly do have sympathies to the idea of not killing animals for food. But I've got to say that if I ever did become a vegan, I would definitely be following the advice of The Vegan Society or a similar organisation, which supports veganism, but also faces the issues that veganism seem to face in terms of health. Once those issues are faced and dealt with, and can certainly see the case for a kinder world. Having said that, I reckon it would be a tough ask for any omniverous meatlover like myself. But maybe a child who was brought up like that would see it differently and find it a much easier thing to deal with, since they never got the taste for it. I don't think it would be child abuse, provided the child used supplemented or fortified food that the Vegan Society is recommending. . |
john bodega 14.10.2012 04:05 |
"I really don't think Wiki is the best place to find out about veganism" It's a lot better than asking a vegan. "The meat and dairy industries are big money making concerns and therefore it is in their interests to put forward these outdated notions." Haha. Because no one's ever made a cent from selling vegan-friendly food? Funny how one industry is all about self interest, and the other 'just wants to save animals'. I don't trust either side of the discussion as far as I could comfortably spit a single mouthful of the food they offer. All I can do is go on the aggregated advice of certain health professionals I've spoken to and do what my conscience says. Warehouses full of spoiled meat is not my idea of honouring dead animals. That stuff is there, and I'm going to eat it. I do think there will be a future where eating animal product as we know it will have gone the way (heh) of the dodo. But vegetarians/vegans won't get us there any faster by bullshitting people or by employing bullshit tactics. Don't get me fuckin' started on the garbage that PETA inflicts on people once every few months just to remind people that they exist. The only real way to affect change is by living it. Bullshit and hyperbole won't help anyone. |
Sandravegan 14.10.2012 05:25 |
Q Nut, if people experience problems with vegan diet it's because they are not eating a proper healthy vegan diet. Where do you all think I do my food shopping? I get it ALL from Tesco.............I eat food just like everybody else, I just don't eat dead flesh or hen's periods or milk from the mammary glands of another species. Cow's milk is meant for baby cows, not humans. Humans are the only species who continue to drink milk beyond infancy. Heavenite, you do not need to provide me with a link to the Vegan Society, I know all about B12. I have explained the reasons why B12 needs to be supplemented nowdays because in times past there would have been sufficient B12 found in vegetables grown in B12 rich soil. I also gave you the example of the supplementation of Iodine into the meat eaters diet......a fact you chose to ignore. :) The Vegan Society was founded by Donald Watson in the 1940's. It has been going a very long time. People are not dropping down dead by eating a HEALTHY vegan diet believe you me, infact vegans are healthier than non vegans. This is not anecdotal, this is fact. There are millions of vegans around the world, if vegans were dropping down dead because of their diet I think we would soon know about it. What is anecdotal is the few cases of people getting into difficulties with a vegan diet because they weren't eating a balanced vegan diet. As I said before, I have been vegan for 7 years and have friends who have been vegan for 20, 30, 40 years or more............why are we so healthy? No one has answered that question yet, I wonder why? :) |
john bodega 14.10.2012 06:00 |
"why are we so healthy? No one has answered that question yet, I wonder why?" Ask the constant smoker/drinker who lives to be 95 the same question. Your convenient 'vegan friends who have been vegan for 30, 40 years!' aren't much more than a strawman in this discussion unless you really get into the nitty-gritty of their medical history, the medical history of their forebears, etc. etc. PS. People who finish most every post with ':)' suffer from mental issues. You shouldn't drop emoticons in an internet conversation where you wouldn't be smiling in a real one. |
john bodega 14.10.2012 06:05 |
"People are not dropping down dead by eating a HEALTHY vegan diet believe you me" I think you need to step away from the health aspect of this discussion entirely because you're not being terribly scientific about it. Not in the slightest. If your marker for health is 'not dropping dead', then pretty much any diet is a good one. I could probably live off licking my wallpaper if I was desperate enough. Would that be advisable? Hell no. Any kind of diet choices have to be made with the individuals medical requirements in mind. Your argument is a moral one - it's best not to pretend otherwise because it robs you of credibility. Stick with what you're good at. |
Heavenite 14.10.2012 07:29 |
Hi again Sandravegan Sorry to insult your intelligence by providing the vegan site, but it was just a way of verifying the source of what I was quoting and to verify with you that I went to the right place. I guess it also meant that anyone else reading the thread can also check the information for themselves, whereas they may not otherwise bother. Regarding the soils these days, clearly soils have been degraded over time and I guess what you are saying about the B12 levels may well be correct. But even if that's so, that's unfortunately the way things are now, and even the vegan authorities are recommending B12 supplementation or fortification for their followers at this present time. And that I think is the responsible path for them to follow, so good on them for doing that. Maybe science will be able to change production methods in the future so that vegans will stop needing supplementation or fortification and free them up further to use just plants as their only form of nutrition, but that point isn't here quite yet. And as Zebonka says above, I think the day of veganism, or at least vegetarianism, is coming, possibly sooner than we might think because the farming of animals will no longer sustainable for the planet, as the population of the world continues to increase. We shall see I guess. Regarding your point about iodine, yes I completely agree with you on that. Although it was not a deliberate omission of mine, but simply an oversight. There is no doubt that soils in certain parts of the world are deficient in iodine and therefore it is not just vegans and vegetarians than may need to take iodine supplements. In fact, right here where I live, the soils are indeed deficient in iodine. Although, I have also heard that it matters somewhat less these days than it did in the past because our food is not always sourced locally anymore. Nevertheless I do use iodised salt and also enjoy seaweed in Japanese food like sushi and wakame quite often, as my thryoid function does happen to be a little on the underactive side. |
Heavenite 14.10.2012 07:29 |
Hi again Sandravegan Sorry to insult your intelligence by providing the vegan site, but it was just a way of verifying the source of what I was quoting and to verify with you that I went to the right place. I guess it also meant that anyone else reading the thread can also check the information for themselves, whereas they may not otherwise bother. Regarding the soils these days, clearly soils have been degraded over time and I guess what you are saying about the B12 levels may well be correct. But even if that's so, that's unfortunately the way things are now, and even the vegan authorities are recommending B12 supplementation or fortification for their followers at this present time. And that I think is the responsible path for them to follow, so good on them for doing that. Maybe science will be able to change production methods in the future so that vegans will stop needing supplementation or fortification and free them up further to use just plants as their only form of nutrition, but that point isn't here quite yet. And as Zebonka says above, I think the day of veganism, or at least vegetarianism, is coming, possibly sooner than we might think because the farming of animals will no longer sustainable for the planet, as the population of the world continues to increase. We shall see I guess. Regarding your point about iodine, yes I completely agree with you on that. Although it was not a deliberate omission of mine, but simply an oversight. There is no doubt that soils in certain parts of the world are deficient in iodine and therefore it is not just vegans and vegetarians than may need to take iodine supplements. In fact, right here where I live, the soils are indeed deficient in iodine. Although, I have also heard that it matters somewhat less these days than it did in the past because our food is not always sourced locally anymore. Nevertheless I do use iodised salt and also enjoy seaweed in Japanese food like sushi and wakame quite often, as my thryoid function does happen to be a little on the underactive side. |
Sandravegan 14.10.2012 08:49 |
Zebonka12, I really don't feel you need to resort to insults just because you are losing the argument. I put a smiley face at the end of nearly ALL my posts, not because I suffer from a mental illness but because I am a friendly, happy type of girl. :) Your comparison of a smoker/drinker living to 95, is not a good comparison either. Most heavy smokers/drinkers usually end up with some sort of health problems whereas most vegans do not suffer health problems. My point is, you people are saying the vegan diet is unhealthy, well that is just not true. Medical facts prove otherwise. If someone is eating a balanced HEALTHY vegan diet they are doing the best for their bodies. I will leave this discussion now because as usual, when non vegans are losing the argument they resort to insults and nastiness. All the very best to everyone on this forum, I remain in contact with Brian May and he will be very interested in your attitudes. All the best to you too Zebonka12, I'm sure in real life you are a very nice person and we would probably be good friends. :) |
Holly2003 14.10.2012 08:58 |
Brian's a preachy obsessive too, so you should get on well together :) |
john bodega 14.10.2012 10:27 |
"I really don't feel you need to resort to insults just because you are losing the argument" I didn't insult you - not once - and I'm not losing any argument, because there isn't one. |
john bodega 14.10.2012 10:31 |
"Most heavy smokers/drinkers usually end up with some sort of health problems whereas most vegans do not suffer health problems." Another meaningless statement. What does 'most' mean to the vegan who suffers from health problems?? It's rather shallow thinking to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as being 'nasty'. You're not doing much for the cause of veganism by making it seem like a barrier to cognitive function. All I was saying is that you should stick to the real reasoning here, which is a moral reason not to be killing animals and eating them. That's the main strength of your position. You will never win people over by stressing the health angle. If that kind of thing worked, then the tobacco industry would've folded decades ago. |
Q NUT 14.10.2012 12:10 |
Sandravegan, "if people experience problems with vegan diet it's because they are not eating a proper healthy vegan diet" This is the common excuse given by followers of extremist diets. No matter evidence to the contrary it's never the diet that is at fault but always that the individual failed to follow the diet correctly. The fact is that plant foods are very poor, unreliable sources of B12 even if grown in vitamin B12 rich soil. Meat is by far the best source. You also mention iodine again but do realize that an omnivorous diet consists of a wide variety of foods including vegetables? You seem to be thinking that meat eating and eating vegetables are mutually exclusive. |
Heavenite 15.10.2012 07:41 |
Hi Sandravegan Hopefully we all benefited from hearing some different perspectives. You certainly put veganism on the chart for me. Quite frankly, before this, its not something I ever would have even thought about, yet alone contemplated. Hopefully you also gained some different perspectives, even if it didn't change your opinion. |
thomasquinn 32989 15.10.2012 08:36 |
The point remains: Vegetarianism = healthier than omnivorous diet. Veganism = less healthy than omnivorous diet, MUCH less healthy than vegetarian diet. The key is to limit your intake of meat as much as possible. However, other animal products (eggs, milk [and thus, butter, cream, cheese], etc.) are very good for you....in MODERATION. The main problem with veganism is that it is, by definition, IMMODERATE. It is a very one-sided diet, similar to the kind you often see in America and South Africa, where people eat tremendous amounts of meat and little else. |
Q NUT 15.10.2012 14:22 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Vegetarianism = healthier than omnivorous diet. The key is to limit your intake of meat as much as possible.Have you ever bothered to verify the claims made by vegetarians including those you made above? |
Heavenite 16.10.2012 07:02 |
My understanding is that red meat is good for you provided its not to often. It triggers the inflammatory process that heals us. However too much inflammation itself can cause damage. Including it in a diet is therefore supposed to completely OK from a health perspective provided its not too much and is balanced plenty of vegetables and other sources of protein, especially fish because of its anti=inflammatory effects. |
Pingfah 18.10.2012 08:51 |
Sandravegan wrote: I will worry about the plants when they start screaming out in pain and trying to run away from me when I want to eat them.You're advocating eating comatose patients now? Disgusting. |
Heavenite 19.10.2012 19:58 |
Just thought I'd put this link on here, which describes the importance of Vitamin B12 > link Apparently our ability to absorb B12 reduces as we get older. It needs a cofactor called intrinsic factor that is released by the parietal cells in our stomachs in order for it to be absorbed. Problem is that these cells diminish as we get older, and by our late forties and fifites, we can start getting a B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 injections have been prescribed for the elderly for years now. Fortunately, more recently they have found a way to deliver B12 under the tongue (sublingually) using a slightly different form of it called Methylcobalamin. Something I should probably start including in my supplement regime given the big Five O is rapidly approaching. Vitamin Research Products is a fairly reputable place on the net to get this stuff from if anyone is interested. |
kdj2hot 20.10.2012 21:05 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Yep. In people over the age of 60, veganism is actually very, very lethal. Brian probably has about eight months left. By the time he's done being a vegan, he'll probably look like THIS: link so I'd get the farewell cards together folks. This is a day of mourning.Lol its kinda true in a way. Vegans arent as healthy. They miss a lot of crucial vitamins. A man of his age needs as much nutrients as possible. |
The Real Wizard 20.10.2012 22:03 |
kdj2hot wrote: Vegans arent as healthy. They miss a lot of crucial vitamins.Some do, some don't. Propaganda from the meat and dairy industry wants to make sure you believe they do. The more people that go vegan, the more money they stand to lose. Who do you think lobbies government when they're about to create food/nutrition guides? 2.5% of the US is vegan. And rising. Is anyone trying to reasonably suggest that these people are unhealthier than the 35% of the country that are obese? |
Heavenite 20.10.2012 22:57 |
The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on. Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods. I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course. |
kdj2hot 20.10.2012 23:27 |
Heavenite wrote: The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on. Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods. I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course.Dont you people read the news. We live in a high tech computer simulation. Thats all the universe is. That explains why its still expanding and whats it expanding over, etc. I just hope no one hits the reset button... What does thus have to do with the subject? Duh, its like who cares about eating animals? Thats what were suppose to.do.to survive. Thats the way this game called life works. Its like things get so easy we go out of our way to find ways to screw ourselves. 25,000 yrs ago you had to worry about not becoming a sabre tooth tigers dinner. It wasnt any of this vegan nonsense. Its all incredibly stupid. Besides the animals are already.dead. IMO youre a monster and causing their deaths to be in vain by not eating them. What youre just gonna let the package of beef spoil? Then you allowed that poor cow to die.for.nothing. shame.on.you |
Heavenite 21.10.2012 04:35 |
Hi kdj2hot Have another read of my comments. I had roast lamb tonight for dinner and am definitely no vegan, or even vegetarian for that matter. That is definitely how life has worked as you say, and there IS no point in feeling guilty about it. All I was saying was that for those that choose veganism especially, there is no B12 alternative at this stage unless you are willing to eat something which has been artificially produced from yeast like the Vegemite we have here in Australia. Don't think they are crazy about eating that though either. |
Q NUT 21.10.2012 11:11 |
Heavenite wrote: The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on. Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods. I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course.More vegan propaganda. They ignore many other important nutrients which plant foods cannot supply optimal amounts. BTW The Vegan Society is very poorly researched. While they do have references the majority of them are not scientific research. Omnivores are typically less health conscious than vegetarians - smoking more, exercising less, eating tons of processed stuff etc. but this is ignored by vegetarians and according to them blame the meat! |
Heavenite 24.10.2012 02:12 |
Hi QNut But it is true that too much meat can be a problem, as it is well known that it can cause excessive amounts of inflammation in the body. Too much of a good thing you could say. Its just not true that it is bad for us in reasonable amounts cos its not. Its got all the essential aminos, iron and Vitamin B12 etc. Like with so many things, it is a matter of balance. Too much is bad. Not enough can also be bad. And yes,I agree that vegos and vegans are usually a lot more health conscious and that the prevalence of omnivores that don't eat a healthy diet (which may include too much meat) , can very much mask the healthy state of the omnivores that do eat a balanced diet. It is the more natural diet for our bodies. That much is certain. |
mick_g 24.10.2012 17:30 |
great thread... well i just want to say that i have been a vegetarian for 24 years, and that is the best thing i have done in my life. when i was eating meat i never thought about the animals, i just thought it was a natural thing to do. but then i came into a bit of a searching period, for the meaning of life, the answers to the big existential questions. and the one who convinced me the most, talked about vegetarianism, that it was the ethical thing to do, and the most healthy also. i liked eating meat, but becoming a vegetarian, was still surprigsingly easy... i have never longed for eating meat again. many vegetarian products, are quite similar to meat in taste, so i guess that has helped the process. but maybe it's not right to say it tastes like meat, cause meat don't taste that much itself, if you don't put salt and pepper on it and other spices. i don't like to preach about this and tell others what to do, but i do feel sorry for all meat eaters, and think the world would become a much, much better place, without that diet, there are many good arguments for that. the one i have read who have inspired my change of diet, says that he rather dines with a tolerant meat eater than an intolerant vegetarian, so as always, the best thing is to be friends, even though we have different meanings. |
GratefulFan 24.10.2012 18:07 |
Eating meat *is* a natural thing to do, and thoroughly ethical in it's purest form. Some of our methods of raising meat for food on the other hand are neither particularly natural nor ethical, but that is a separate issue. While I absolutely respect individual choice and specifically admire the commitment and discipline of vegetarians and vegans on one level, I frankly feel sorry for anybody that could come up with the phrase "I do feel sorry for all meat eaters". It's so typical of the depth of the egocentrism that it seems to me is so frequently at the heart of the matter when it comes to vegans, vegetarians and hard core animal rights activists. |
mick_g 24.10.2012 19:32 |
see next post! |
mick_g 24.10.2012 19:35 |
I think it's unethical to eat meat, because it is not something we need to do. We can change it for vegetables, helping both the environment, and feeding the world, and probably we are healthier off as well. AND the animals don't have to suffer anymore, and have their precious lifes shortened. and talking about meat eating as a natural thing to do, i wonder how many would continue eating meat, if they had to slaughter the animals themselves, and prepare it... |
AlexRocks 24.10.2012 19:56 |
Does this mean we will be able to eat Brian May now? |
Q NUT 24.10.2012 21:30 |
Heavenite wrote: Like with so many things, it is a matter of balance.Yea, balance is what it's about. An all meat diet would be just as bad as an all plant diet not because meat itself is bad, but because it would neglect many important nutrients that plant foods provide. There's no doubt that an omnivorous diet is the natural one. |
The Real Wizard 24.10.2012 23:09 |
Q NUT wrote: There's no doubt that an omnivorous diet is the natural one.Yes, at the moment. There's also no doubt that evolution could create a new natural diet. If generations of people didn't eat food from an animal, we would evolve to be able to function without it and ultimately reject it. |
GratefulFan 25.10.2012 12:51 |
mick_g wrote: I think it's unethical to eat meat, because it is not something we need to do. We can change it for vegetables, helping both the environment, and feeding the world, and probably we are healthier off as well. AND the animals don't have to suffer anymore, and have their precious lifes shortened. and talking about meat eating as a natural thing to do, i wonder how many would continue eating meat, if they had to slaughter the animals themselves, and prepare it...I live in Canada, and when you live in Canada but not in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver it's wonderfully, blessedly difficult to escape the realization that human beings are part of a stunning and sometimes cruelly beautiful natural system with almost unfathomable widsom in it's every breath. And we *are* part of the natural world, not an invasive species as many modern urban philosophs would have it, bad human behaviour notwithstanding. We're not "superior" to the "lower" animals any more than a fox is "superior" to a "lower" rabbit. That is a fallacious indulgence of people who as far as I can tell are projecting a model for sorting things that begins with their own obnoxious and thoroughly misplaced sense of their own superiority. Humans are apex predators, just like lions and grizzlies and crocodiles and where we interact directly with the natural world through activities like hunting humans play a vital role in the health of ecosystems. I don't personally hunt, and never would, but hunters are my family, coworkers and friends. I don't suffer under the kind of delusions that Brian May does about the characters of those who hunt wild game, or inexplicably cast the eating of venison as "frivolous" as has been done here. If anything the deep respect hunters have for the animals they kill is far more profound and reality based than your average badger hugger or self-fascinated vegan. Agriculture is not strictly predation, and we mostly do it badly right now, but we do it badly in addressable ways. Comparisons have been made here between the treatment and consumption of animals and past treatment of women and black people. We were always wrong to devalue the humanity and potential of anybody based on things like race or gender or class. Always wrong. Deeply wrong. Similarly there is a growing recognition that we have always been wrong where we have failed to adequately see animals as fully sentient beings whose physical, mental and emotional experience is important, particularly when that experience includes drastically reduced quality of life and needless suffering. But that is a completely different concept than whether or not they should be taken for food. When did that become wrong? Certainly it's not wrong when other animals do it. It's wasn't wrong in times past when alternate means to meet nutritional requirements were unknown or otherwise out of reach. Few but the most virulent of animal rights nutcases would argue it's wrong today in remote communities like the Canadian Arctic region where food flown in to already impoverished communities costs anywhere from two to four and more times that of food in downtown Toronto. Of course Brian May would likely tell them to move, like he tells farmers to farm something else, with absolutely no regard for personal history, values or experiences outside his own. Somebody here said it "might" be okay to hunt deer around cities, in some special cases that made sense their head. So consuming animals then does not fit with the absolute moral position of we've come to with regard to things like slavery and inequality. People still want to use it though, taking all the emotional power of the argument and none of the burden of rationality or logic. Livestock are so much more than just dumb beasts waiting around inertly to be murdered by humans. They are a vital part of sustainable agriculture through their conversion of sunlight to food and their cycling of nutrients back to the land, for example. And they are infinitely valuable just in the wonder of their being, a fact not changed by the fact that their lives do not end naturally. It's a complete arrogance for vegans and vegetarians and militant animal rights people to imagine that they alone have the market cornered on compassion and respect for animals. I guarantee I don't have an ounce less regard for any animal on the planet than any of you, though I convert my own experiences and feelings into different conclusions. The personal rejection of meat eating is a perfectly reasonable response to our human capacity for empathy and compassion, but so is a response of wonder, gratitude, acceptance and humility in the face of a biological reality that death, even our own death, begets life in the almost impenetrably wise and complex natural system we are part of. Get over yourselves. Really. You're far less important than you think and far less equipped to convert your personal and thus necessarily limited set of experiences and beliefs into a moral panacea for the rest of the world you imagine to be based on any kind of objective truth. It's not. It's completely subjective, and a dangerous type of subjective as it so easily sweeps people and ideas in almost exclusively on the emotional appeal. Witness the sorry state of the UK badger cull debate for a painfully current example. |
Heavenite 25.10.2012 16:29 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Q NUT wrote: There's no doubt that an omnivorous diet is the natural one. Yes, at the moment. There's also no doubt that evolution could create a new natural diet. If generations of people didn't eat food from an animal, we would evolve to be able to function without it and ultimately reject it. Hi The Real Wizard That much is true. But we all know how long evolution takes. I think science would be the more realistic answer for those like yourself who don't want to miss out nutritionally. At least as far as science and vegetarian/vegan sources can do that. Just on Vitamin B12, do you know the product Vegemite? Its made out of yeast and is a rich source of it. Australians love it as a rule, but it hasn't caught on that much around the world. It strikes me that eating that stuff would be as close as possible to getting a non animal replacement for Vitamin B12, which even The Vegan Society say is effectively essential for good health. |
Q NUT 25.10.2012 18:25 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Yes, at the moment. There's also no doubt that evolution could create a new natural diet. If generations of people didn't eat food from an animal, we would evolve to be able to function without it and ultimately reject it.This assumes that the new diet would have no bad consequences which is questionable. Vegetarian diets can be detrimental to many people (yea, vegetarians ignore them) and certainly to most if no supplementation is taken. If there is an optimal diet for everyone it certainly isn't vegetarianism. To suggest that everyone can survive on a vegetarian diet ignores a mass of data to the contrary. If one chooses to live that way then they have to be very careful especially with a child. Vegetarians constantly mislead others and many are in denial about the deficiencies in their diet and as a result many people have suffered. Not very ethical if you ask me. |
The Real Wizard 25.10.2012 23:56 |
Q NUT wrote:As opposed to the current omnivore diet adhered to by most, which leads to clogged arteries, heart disease, colon cancer and type 2 diabetes?The Real Wizard wrote: There's also no doubt that evolution could create a new natural diet. If generations of people didn't eat food from an animal, we would evolve to be able to function without it and ultimately reject it.This assumes that the new diet would have no bad consequences which is questionable. As opposed to all that prescription medication that kills more people worldwide than all the hard drugs combined? As opposed to the alcohol that kills 10x more people than hard drugs? And we're talking about how eliminating meat and dairy from your diet can potentially cause health problems? I don't mean to be argumentative, but where are our priorities? A vegan diet can be done properly. It requires much effort and research in order to receive adequate nutrition - nobody's denying that. But to unequivocally say it's unhealthy and inferior to eating meat and dairy? There is no factual evidence to support that. Much of what we hear about these diets being healthy is propaganda from the meat and dairy industry. As the number of vegetarians and vegans increase, the propaganda machines are upping their game, as there is money to be lost. It's becoming more and more difficult for the average person to discern fact from fiction. The latest myth is that soy lowers your sperm count. |
The Real Wizard 26.10.2012 00:23 |
Heavenite wrote: That much is true. But we all know how long evolution takes. I think science would be the more realistic answer for those like yourself who don't want to miss out nutritionally. At least as far as science and vegetarian/vegan sources can do that. Just on Vitamin B12, do you know the product Vegemite? Its made out of yeast and is a rich source of it. Australians love it as a rule, but it hasn't caught on that much around the world. It strikes me that eating that stuff would be as close as possible to getting a non animal replacement for Vitamin B12, which even The Vegan Society say is effectively essential for good health.I'll have to look into Vegemite. Thanks for that ! |
Heavenite 26.10.2012 02:25 |
You're welcome Wizard. We love it in Australia on toast. But we eat if from an early age, so maybe we're used to it. Most others don't seem to like it, but I certainly do! |
Q NUT 26.10.2012 11:25 |
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Q NUT 26.10.2012 11:29 |
Real Wizard - "As opposed to the current omnivore diet adhered to by most, which leads to clogged arteries, heart disease, colon cancer and type 2 diabetes?" The current omnivore diet you are speaking of is riddled with processed garbage. Yet vegans single out meat as the culprit behind these diseases. The current omnivore diet you are speaking about is a far, far, cry from a healthy omnivorous diet similar to the one we ate for millions of years. "And we're talking about how eliminating meat and dairy from your diet can potentially cause health problems? I don't mean to be argumentative, but where are our priorities? " 1)You are not being argumentative. 2) I do consider the health of our species a priority and that putting everyone on a vegan diet would be almost disastrous and certainly not optimal. " But to unequivocally say it's unhealthy and inferior to eating meat and dairy? There is no factual evidence to support that. " It's inferior to a healthy omnivorous diet. Do you know what a healthy omnivorous diet is? Or are you just assuming that it's a diet where people gorge themselves with meat and dairy? "Much of what we hear about these diets being healthy is propaganda from the meat and dairy industry." And I'm supposed to believe that vegans and the soy industry have nothing to lose? The emotional investment for vegans can't be discounted. "As the number of vegetarians and vegans increase, the propaganda machines are upping their game What about the number of ex-vegetarians? |
Heavenite 27.10.2012 08:15 |
GratefulFan wrote:mick_g wrote: I think it's unethical to eat meat, because it is not something we need to do. We can change it for vegetables, helping both the environment, and feeding the world, and probably we are healthier off as well. AND the animals don't have to suffer anymore, and have their precious lifes shortened. and talking about meat eating as a natural thing to do, i wonder how many would continue eating meat, if they had to slaughter the animals themselves, and prepare it...I live in Canada, and when you live in Canada but not in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver it's wonderfully, blessedly difficult to escape the realization that human beings are part of a stunning and sometimes cruelly beautiful natural system with almost unfathomable widsom in it's every breath. And we *are* part of the natural world, not an invasive species as many modern urban philosophs would have it, bad human behaviour notwithstanding. We're not "superior" to the "lower" animals any more than a fox is "superior" to a "lower" rabbit. That is a fallacious indulgence of people who as far as I can tell are projecting a model for sorting things that begins with their own obnoxious and thoroughly misplaced sense of their own superiority. Humans are apex predators, just like lions and grizzlies and crocodiles and where we interact directly with the natural world through activities like hunting humans play a vital role in the health of ecosystems. I don't personally hunt, and never would, but hunters are my family, coworkers and friends. I don't suffer under the kind of delusions that Brian May does about the characters of those who hunt wild game, or inexplicably cast the eating of venison as "frivolous" as has been done here. If anything the deep respect hunters have for the animals they kill is far more profound and reality based than your average badger hugger or self-fascinated vegan. |
GratefulFan 28.10.2012 16:34 |
Heavenite wrote: More needs to be done for animal welfare while they are alive and sometimes to the manner in which they are killed. But that doesn't mean we should feel guilty about using them as a source of food. Once the animal is dead, it doesn't know anything, just like the rest of us.It's a difficult question. I think guilt is a natural response and perhaps the question is less if we should feel guilty and more if and how that guilt should inform us. Sometimes guilt is a clear signal that we are doing something wrong and that we need to make different choices. Other times it's part of a range of conflicting emotions on competing needs and wants. At its worst it's a bit of a fibber and a thief, a paralytic that can keep us spinning in place escaping reality and needed action or a pied piper leading us to the wrong action. I told a story here previously about a mouse problem in my house that I fruitlessly battled for months if not years with failing humane options. I so wanted to avoid killing them in part to be a role model to my child that I ended up exposing him to the potential for disease and fire for a year. In trying to be a good person I was a bit of a bad parent. Ironic. My actions though initially reasonable and always well intentioned mostly allowed me to avoid difficult feelings and difficult action and keep my self perception intact. For all it's genuine morality it was also self indulgent, which I think is a decent description of a lot of animal rights concepts. Guilt isn't always clarifying. I recently watched a video titled 'The Good Slaughter': link. It's what we all mean I think when we articulate the things we want for animals destined to become our food. It's everything we would like factory farming to be but usually isn't. The animals are respected, the owner of the processing plant clearly cares and has a real connection to the consequences of his livelihood. It was still enormously difficult to watch, the reality challenging to acknowledge. The way we have organized ourselves in society means the vast majority of us are removed from this reality of life and death in food production. Seeing the animals as they were in this video was in some ways harder than seeing them as anonymous clumps of bovine anxiety prodded and herded together towards their deaths as we usually see them. Here they were alone, quiet, mostly unafraid. I was drawn, as most would be, to their eyes. It's that connection that makes them so clearly individuals, and for me the haunting afterburn in the minutes and rituals and efficiences that follow their deaths. We have the capacity to understand that something has been lost, taken. That in whatever capacity, even if a rudimentary one, the lives of those creatures had value to them. Had they been able to anticipate what was coming they would have fought frantically with every muscle cell and neuron to save themselves. In the close up we've traded the future of a valuable individual life for a short, messy, gnashing trip down somebody's digestive track. It's easy to feel guilt, to feel even grief. The bigger picture is harder to reach from down there on the slaughterhouse floor. Some months ago I read the results of an essay contest in the New York Times that had challenged readers to compose pieces on why it was ethical to eat meat. The winner and finalists chosen by the judging panel are on the left linked from the pink circles here: link. They are quick enough and all worth a read. The most popular one as chosen by readers was oddly the one that made me most sad. Perhaps not surprisingly it was by the founder of PETA. It was an argument that ethical meat eating was close because in the future meat would be grown in vitro, bypassing altogether the ethical problems. But if life is the value, and I'd argue that it should be, we will have lost something if we surrender too thoroughly to guilt for our own comfort. In sidestepping the deaths of farmed creatures we also of course lose the benefit of their lives, both to them and the ways in which they shape us as human beings. It's one of the great ironies of the animal rights movement that it is in many ways so blindly anthropocentric and paternal. There is a great, utterly humbling synergistic rhythm to the natural world that is not always kind and not always comfortable. It should inspire awe, humility, gratitude, acceptance, empathy, courage, more. Guilt is but one emotion that like nature needs balance. But it shouts so loud while the others whisper that we have to be very, very careful and thoughtful about guilt. |
john bodega 29.10.2012 02:26 |
"The latest myth is that soy lowers your sperm count" The entire myth runs that soy renders your sperm count irrelevant - once you stink of that shit, no woman is going to fuck you in the first place! |
GratefulFan 29.10.2012 08:00 |
I think the myth making on that one came from the soy industry with their "Real Men Eat Soy" press release in response to the Harvard study that raised the red flag in the first place. Is it not common sense for a man to limit how many times a week he floods his body with what are essentially estrogens in the same way it is common sense to limit red and processed meat consumption, particularly as the science on it remains unclear? |
Q NUT 30.10.2012 11:24 |
GratefulFan wrote: I think the myth making on that one came from the soy industry with their "Real Men Eat Soy" press release in response to the Harvard study that raised the red flag in the first place. Is it not common sense for a man to limit how many times a week he floods his body with what are essentially estrogens in the same way it is common sense to limit red and processed meat consumption, particularly as the science on it remains unclear? |
Q NUT 30.10.2012 11:24 |
Q NUT wrote:Yea but it's more common sense to limit soy intake than red meat intake for a number of reasons.GratefulFan wrote: I think the myth making on that one came from the soy industry with their "Real Men Eat Soy" press release in response to the Harvard study that raised the red flag in the first place. Is it not common sense for a man to limit how many times a week he floods his body with what are essentially estrogens in the same way it is common sense to limit red and processed meat consumption, particularly as the science on it remains unclear? 1) Soy is a relatively new food to the human diet (very new to most) which is why it is one of the top allergenic foods. Meat is not. 2) Long term consumption of soy protein is unknown in the amounts that are recommended. Meat has been consumed for 2+ million years. 3) Experimental studies of soy are inconsistent. Some show negative effects. Number of experiments that show red meat to be harmful - Zero 4) Red Meat is by miles far more nutritious than soy |
Bruce Hyland 25.01.2013 01:14 |
Vegan's are f*#!ed up? Is that your professional opinion or did you pull that one out your ass? Google Joel Kirkillis (vegan bodybuilder) Robert Cheeke (vegan bodybuilder) Brad Pitt (vegan actor) Carl Lewis (vegan athlete) |
Bruce Hyland 25.01.2013 01:22 |
No doubt that we are omnivores? So the fact that people flourish (myself included) without consuming animal products (and we don't have the gout, arthritis and cholestral that goes with consuming animal products) is actually "unnatural" in your opinion? Vegans don't need supplements, I have been vegan for 7 years and have not taken ANY supplements. I have been a Queen fan since 1984 and when I heard that Brian was going vegan it was such an amazing feeling to know that one of my idols is also a sensitive and aware individual. Brian May is too intelligent to jump into anything without doing the proper research. If he thought that veganism was "unnatural" or harmful, a man with his intellect would not even entertain the notion. Brian, you have rised even higher in my estimation (didn't think it was possible!!) |
Bruce Hyland 25.01.2013 01:29 |
Red meat harmful - Zero? You're kidding me right? The consumption of meat renders your system acidic. You do not have the required digestive enzymes to break meat down in your stomach (if you did you would be able to eat it raw) It literally rots in your stomach before it finally moves on. Your body has to leach calcium and phosphate from your bones in order to neatralise the acidity caused by the consumption of meat. And now I'm supposed to believe your "scientific" claim that red meat consumption is not harmful? Ever heard of heart disease? Vegans don't suffer from it. Go and check out why Bill Clinton has also become vegan. You might also want to check out a couple of vegan bodybuilders and athletes who don't need animal products to acquire their protein (Joel Kirkillis, Robert Cheeke, Carl Lewis) |
emrabt 25.01.2013 01:36 |
[quote]Ever heard of heart disease? Vegans don't suffer from it[/quote] Amazing, has anyone told Robin Gibb, long time vegan, who had heart disease, plus a whole bunch of liver problems? I'm sure he'd be thrilled that he couldn't get it, so would Dick Cheney, his 7 or 8 heart attacks could've never happened. Typical propoganda, pleased either do some real research or be quiet, you are making all vegans look like idiots. Well planned Vegan diets COULD prevent heart disease, but so can well planned ANY diets, poorly planned vegan diets can lead to it. |
Heavenite 25.01.2013 02:56 |
It's not a black and white topic. There is little doubt that including meat is the more "natural" diet for humans. Just not too much because it causes inflammation in the body. But in the right amount, it is highly nutritious without causing harm to most people. The Atkins diet lowers LDL (ie bad cholesterol) and improves the ratio of the good form of cholesterol (ie HDL) to LDL by lowering the body's levels of the latter. My total cholesterol went from 5.6 to 3.1 while I was on the Atkins diet. Doesn't mean it is all plain sailing though, because of meat's effects on inflammation. Inflammation is the process through which our body heals, so in of itself it is a good thing and meat helps with that. However too much inflammation can damage us as well, and that's where the problem lies! |
Pingfah 25.01.2013 05:03 |
emrabt wrote: [quote]Ever heard of heart disease? Vegans don't suffer from it[/quote] Amazing, has anyone told Robin Gibb, long time vegan, who had heart disease, plus a whole bunch of liver problems? I'm sure he'd be thrilled that he couldn't get it, so would Dick Cheney, his 7 or 8 heart attacks never happened. Typical propoganda, pleased either do some real research or be quiet, you are making all vegans look like idiots. Well planned Vegan diets COULD prevent heart disease, but so can well planned ANY diets, poorly planned vegan diets can lead to it.Dick Cheney???!!! Dick Cheney is not a vegan, he might just be the least vegan person to ever have walked the face of the planet. He shot his gamekeeper in the face while shooting quail! |
emrabt 25.01.2013 06:32 |
[quote] Dick Cheney is not a vegan, he might just be the least vegan person to ever have walked the face of the planet. He shot his gamekeeper in the face while shooting quail! [/quote] That should read "could've" never happen. as in, it was all down to meat. |
Pingfah 25.01.2013 06:47 |
Oh, haha, that makes a lot more sense. |
Q NUT 25.01.2013 09:31 |
Ah, the protein leaches calcium and phosphate claim. I wonder why then that vegans are sometimes found to have lower bone mineral density than non-vegans - link Another review found that the "recommendation to intentionally restrict dietary protein to improve bone health is unwarranted, and potentially even dangerous to those individuals who consume inadequate protein" - link Again - "The results suggest that vegetarian diets, particularly vegan diets, are associated with lower BMD, but the magnitude of the association is clinically insignificant" - link Again - " In agreement with both experimental and clinical intervention studies, large prospective epidemiologic observations indicate that relatively high protein intakes, including those from animal sources are associated with increased bone mineral mass and reduced incidence of osteoporotic fractures." - link There are a few better controlled studies that have confirmed the above for example - link |
Q NUT 25.01.2013 10:40 |
Am I supposed to believe that a species that has eaten meat for millions of years cannot digest it properly? Even chimpanzees who don't eat much meat are able to digest meat perfectly - link I'm not a fan of Epidemiology but one of the largest studies on vegetarians vs nonvegetarians failed to find any difference in overall mortality - link Maybe a vegetarian diet isn't as healthy as it is made out to be. Maybe there is a better way. If you think you do better on a vegan diet then fine, I'm not against that. However, when vegans/vegetarians rant about the "harmfulness" of animal foods that is when I call BS on it. |
GratefulFan 25.01.2013 11:21 |
The BBC did an interesting contextual analysis of the Harvard study released last year that linked an extra portion of red meat a day with a 13% increase in risk of death. Turns out that means dying at 79, for example, instead of 80. link |
The Real Wizard 25.01.2013 11:57 |
Q NUT wrote: Maybe a vegetarian diet isn't as healthy as it is made out to be. Maybe there is a better way. If you think you do better on a vegan diet then fine, I'm not against that. However, when vegans/vegetarians rant about the "harmfulness" of animal foods that is when I call BS on it.Spoken like a true professional. Professional consumer, that is. You're believing exactly what the meat and dairy industry you want to believe. They stand to lose the most from the rise in popularity vegetarian and vegan diets, so the propaganda from them has never been greater than it is now. The latest thing from their file - "soy raises your estrogen level and lowers your testosterone." While absolutely true, the reality is it's at such a minute level. But never let the truth get in the way of a good sensationalistic story. The same thing when everyone was freaking out over the radiation at the nuclear plants in Japan. Sure, the numbers looked big - but it was no larger than the amount of radiation that goes through your body when you get an x-ray. People with an agenda will always make prey of the ignorant. |
The Real Wizard 25.01.2013 11:59 |
Q NUT wrote: I wonder why then that vegans are sometimes found to have lower bone mineral density than non-vegans - linkThere's no doubt that there are plenty of vegans who don't get adequate nutrition. It's a difficult diet to do right. But when it is done right, it is undeniable that the benefits far outweigh the omnivore diet. Meat clogs your arteries. Vegetables and soy don't. |
Q NUT 25.01.2013 12:53 |
@GratefulFan I found the full paper of this study which was the results from "2 Prospective Cohort Studies". This illustrates the problem with Epidemiology studies - Food Frequency Questionnaires and confounding. For example this study showed that those who ate more Red Meat tended to smoke more, exercise less, less multivitamin use, more overweight etc. The authors attempted to "adjust" for these differences and in the end there was only a 13% increase risk which in Epidemiology is nothing. Futhermore guess what meat was included in the "unprocessed" category? "Hamburger" and "beef, pork, or lamb as a sandwich or mixed dish". I'm not making this up I can send you the study if you are interested. Another interesting thing in this study is that as red meat consumption went up cholesterol went down! In your article the writer correctly point out that "Well, no we can't say there's cause and effect here." Exactly! |
Q NUT 25.01.2013 17:02 |
@The Real Wizard "Spoken like a true professional. Professional consumer, that is. You're believing exactly what the meat and dairy industry you want to believe." No, I believe what I believe because of the Scientific Method. One cannot make a claim then cite poorly controlled studies as "proof". The better it adheres to the Scientific Method the more I believe it. I don't need the Meat and Dairy industry to tell me what to believe. "They stand to lose the most from the rise in popularity vegetarian and vegan diets, so the propaganda from them has never been greater than it is now. " So do the Statin, Soy and Whole Grain Industries. "While absolutely true, the reality is it's at such a minute level. But never let the truth get in the way of a good sensationalistic story." I agree. However there are people out there consuming Soy Milk and Soy Burgers thinking these are healthy alternatives. The poison is in the dose so small amounts are probably healthy. |
GratefulFan 28.01.2013 07:54 |
Q NUT wrote: @GratefulFan I found the full paper of this study which was the results from "2 Prospective Cohort Studies". This illustrates the problem with Epidemiology studies - Food Frequency Questionnaires and confounding. For example this study showed that those who ate more Red Meat tended to smoke more, exercise less, less multivitamin use, more overweight etc. The authors attempted to "adjust" for these differences and in the end there was only a 13% increase risk which in Epidemiology is nothing. Futhermore guess what meat was included in the "unprocessed" category? "Hamburger" and "beef, pork, or lamb as a sandwich or mixed dish". I'm not making this up I can send you the study if you are interested. Another interesting thing in this study is that as red meat consumption went up cholesterol went down! In your article the writer correctly point out that "Well, no we can't say there's cause and effect here." Exactly!Thanks Q NUT. I also dug up the original study and a critical analysis of it at the time it was released so I'm familiar with the objections you noted. My point was more intended to be that there's not much risk in accepting the conclusions when for all the blaring headlines the lifelong impact of daily red meat was living to 79 instead of 80. I recently read a study that concluded that regular aspirin use, sometimes prescribed to reduce cardiovascular risks, triples your risk of a specific type of blindness. Decades of conflicting and evolving studies should inform us more than anything that there is no magic bullet and that balance and common sense, listening to your own body's feedback on your food choices and appreciating food as not only nutrition but a source of pleasure and a focus for social gathering is as likely as anything else to get you to at least 79 and a half. |
Q NUT 28.01.2013 11:03 |
@GratefulFan Agree with everything you said there. Balance - what a novel idea! People seem to forget that there is a middle ground of varying degrees between high protein and low protein or high fat and low fat. Another thing that should be pointed out is that most of these studies do not account for cooking methods but when they do account for it the results are often different e.g. link - "boiled red meat was mainly protective" link - "The protective trends for red pan-fried meat were also borderline statistically significant." link - "Interestingly, the consumption of rare or less cooked meat was not associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer." Of course, these are associations from uncontrolled studies so no causal claim can be made. |
toriebromellable 23.01.2014 11:05 |
I think Brian wanting to become vegan is great! After all, if he claims he loves animals it's very hypocritical to eat them! To everyone who thinks you'll become sick off of a vegan diet - you're very misinformed! Do some research, many people become vegan just for the benefits. All necessary nutrients can be obtained through plants! I'm a vegan and have never felt healthier than before. |