| Gregsynth 01.11.2010 23:15 |
A friend of mine (TSS Killer), Has made the observation of Barcelona (2/20/1979) being the venue where this song came from. He is completely sure that the whole song comes from this gig. |
| rhyeking 01.11.2010 23:33 |
If he has a bootleg of that concert and it's the same performance as appears on Live Killers then I'd be willing to say he's probably made a good case. I just listened to the track from LK and there's nothing in it alone that tells me when and where it was recorded. |
| Gregsynth 01.11.2010 23:41 |
He's listening to the bootleg of 2/20 on my Youtube channel--he's confident it's from Barcelona! |
| rhyeking 02.11.2010 00:00 |
Mystery solved then! :-) |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 00:03 |
He's currently looking at Let Me Entertain You: He's found 3 concerts already used (and we are at 1:30 into the song)! |
| rhyeking 02.11.2010 00:10 |
Seriously? it's edited from 3+ sources? I guess studio tracks are edited from multiple takes, so it shouldn't be so crazy that a live track is. These days we expect them to be straight-up recordings from the event, warts and all, unaltered. Funny how our expectations shift between releases. |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 00:15 |
Currently, he's found cuts from both Rotterdam gigs, and Munich 1979! He also found STUDIO OVERDUBS on the song! |
| rhyeking 02.11.2010 00:23 |
Rush's "All The World's A Stage" has overdubs, too. I think it comes from the idea that bands (or record companies) had that every release needs to be perfect, or up to their standards, and mistakes had to be 'corrected'. I'm glad there's less of that now. |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 00:24 |
I'd rather hear live mistakes, than "fake" studio dubs. |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 00:28 |
UPDATE: Here's Let Me Entertain You from Live Killers... 0-53 seconds: Rotterdam 1st night 53- 1:08 : Munich 1:09 - 1:30: Rotterdam 1st night 1:31- 1:40 : Unknown 1:41- 1:45: Munich 1:46- 1:53: Rotterdam 1st night (includes studio overdubs) 1:54-2:06: Unknown 2:07-2:48: Rotterdam 1st night |
| thunderbolt 31742 02.11.2010 00:33 |
Where's Sir GH? |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 00:34 |
Probably on the forum somewhere! |
| rhyeking 02.11.2010 00:36 |
Re: rather hear live mistakes over studio overdubs... As would I, and I think the industry recognizes that now, for the most part. I find it odd that the artists somehow think people will hate the blown note or miss cue or off-key vocal in a concert recording, when most fans feel exactly the opposite: it's makes it more organic and you feel part of the charm of the off-the-cuff performance. The mistakes also make the really awesome, perfect performances that much better, because you know the band was firing on all cylinders in that moment and it's special. |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 00:37 |
I completely agree. |
| rhyeking 02.11.2010 00:51 |
I have to say, though, I just listened to the track, following the above breakdown as I did, and the mixing between nights is pretty seamless. The tempo doesn't change, Freddie's vocals are a good match and the other instruments cover the mixing well. I'll have to hear the originals for myself someday. Well done! |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 01:00 |
Thank TSS Killer for the findings! I'm just writing stuff! |
| tsskiller 02.11.2010 01:27 |
For the record, 0:00-0:38 is Rotterdam 1st night, 0:38-1:08 is Munich PLUS the Rotterdam 1st night (the second "Let Me Entertain You" in that Chorus is patched in). The rest is fine. So Greg misinterpreted my findings. |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2010 01:44 |
Sorry to burst your bubbles guys, but that "research" is completely wrong. I just compared the spots in question, and they are not from Munich, Barcelona, or Rotterdam. I compared mostly vocal lines and guitar licks, and they simply do not match. For instance, in You're My Best Friend, before "You're my sunshine," on Live Killers it's a snare fill, and in Barcelona it's a tom fill. And in Let Me Entertain You, the notes that feed back on the guitar are not the notes on the Rotterdam recording. Upon careful inspection, none of the vocal lines match at all. It's these kinds of intricacies that make the songs different from night to night. When ten things in a row match, then you've got a winner. I've spent more hours on this project than I'm willing to admit, and by now I likely know every note of Live Killers more than any other record ever made. And I still love it. But thanks for trying! It's an ongoing fun project. If we're going to figure out more of the songs, more raw recordings are going to have to come out. |
| Vali 02.11.2010 04:28 |
Sir GH wrote: Sorry to burst your bubbles guys, but that "research" is completely wrong. I just compared the spots in question, and they are not from Munich, Barcelona, or Rotterdam. I compared mostly vocal lines and guitar licks, and they simply do not match. For instance, in You're My Best Friend, before "You're my sunshine," on Live Killers it's a snare fill, and in Barcelona it's a tom fill. And in Let Me Entertain You, the notes that feed back on the guitar are not the notes on the Rotterdam recording. Upon careful inspection, none of the vocal lines match at all. It's these kinds of intricacies that make the songs different from night to night. When ten things in a row match, then you've got a winner. I've spent more hours on this project than I'm willing to admit, and by now I likely know every note of Live Killers more than any other record ever made. And I still love it. But thanks for trying! It's an ongoing fun project. If we're going to figure out more of the songs, more raw recordings are going to have to come out. /////////////////////////////// ... wich makes me remember how much I love your Live Killers analysis everytime I read it (and it's been more than just one reading!). Many tks for your superb job, Bob ! |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 10:59 |
Well, there's studio dubs on LMEY (Freddie sings the high notes)! |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2010 13:11 |
It's possible, but we can't know that for sure. They're not nearly as obvious as the overdubs in say, We Are The Champions. He could have easily sung those notes in Let Me Entertain You live at some show on the tour if he had a good night. |
| tsskiller 02.11.2010 13:20 |
Looks like I'll have to make another video... The Barcelona 2nd night bootleg runs fast. I can easily pitch correct it to match Live Killers. Freddie has exactly the same intonation on Barcelona's Best Friend (and I can prove it). The drums and guitar were probably redone in the studio (which wouldn't be surprising). |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 13:43 |
Sir GH wrote: It's possible, but we can't know that for sure. They're not nearly as obvious as the overdubs in say, We Are The Champions. He could have easily sung those notes in Let Me Entertain You live at some show on the tour if he had a good night. ============= But that's the thing, those A4s don't even sound like live ones! If Freddie sang A4s on the Live Killers tour, they would've sound forced! The A4s on the Live Killers version sound like freaking Crazy Tour ones/Studio ones. |
| jamster1111 02.11.2010 14:40 |
I guess you're friend Mr. TSS is wrong about something again :) |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 14:42 |
He's never wrong...he just gets the wrong info. :) |
| marvinp01 02.11.2010 21:59 |
come on really? there is CLEARLY a difference to the LMEY on the LK and the one from Munich!!! TSSKILLER needs to chill out. Bob is the man on Live Killers... |
| Gregsynth 02.11.2010 22:22 |
marvinp01 wrote: come on really? there is CLEARLY a difference to the LMEY on the LK and the one from Munich!!! TSSKILLER needs to chill out. Bob is the man on Live Killers... ========== TSS didn't say the whole song came from Munich, he thinks parts of Freddie's vocals came from it! Big difference! |
| inu-liger 03.11.2010 02:06 |
marvinp01 wrote: come on really? there is CLEARLY a difference to the LMEY on the LK and the one from Munich!!! TSSKILLER needs to chill out. Bob is the man on Live Killers... Needs to chill out?? Speaking from five years plus knowing this guy online (as well as having spent some time TWICE with him this past year when I went to visit New York!), he's actually one of the most chillest guys you will ever meet! |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 11:15 |
tsskiller wrote:
Freddie has exactly the same intonation on Barcelona's Best FriendFreddie doesn't hit the high A on "LONG time" as cleanly in Barcelona as he does on the live album, but maybe that one note was patched up? But you're right, the vocal line is otherwise pretty damn close. Even with the speed corrected, it's hard to tell when the audience recording is in such bad quality. The drums and guitar were probably redone in the studio (which wouldn't be surprising).Then it really isn't a live version anymore, is it? It's always possible that they used the music from one night and the vocals from another. |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2010 11:18 |
They should have called the album "Dubbed Killers." |
| Bad Seed 03.11.2010 11:22 |
Gregsynth wrote: Sir GH wrote: It's possible, but we can't know that for sure. They're not nearly as obvious as the overdubs in say, We Are The Champions. He could have easily sung those notes in Let Me Entertain You live at some show on the tour if he had a good night. ============= But that's the thing, those A4s don't even sound like live ones! If Freddie sang A4s on the Live Killers tour, they would've sound forced! The A4s on the Live Killers version sound like freaking Crazy Tour ones/Studio ones. ============== Not had a listen to LK for a long time, but can you tell me what A4s your talking about? I cant think of any in LMEY? |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2010 11:29 |
Bad Seed wrote: Gregsynth wrote: Sir GH wrote: It's possible, but we can't know that for sure. They're not nearly as obvious as the overdubs in say, We Are The Champions. He could have easily sung those notes in Let Me Entertain You live at some show on the tour if he had a good night. ============= But that's the thing, those A4s don't even sound like live ones! If Freddie sang A4s on the Live Killers tour, they would've sound forced! The A4s on the Live Killers version sound like freaking Crazy Tour ones/Studio ones. ============== Not had a listen to LK for a long time, but can you tell me what A4s your talking about? I cant think of any in LMEY? ============= During the chorus, Freddie sings "Let Me Entertain You!" On the word "tain," Freddie hits A4. |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 11:32 |
He sings the note once, in the second chorus. It's likely an overdub, as he rarely managed that note on the Jazz tour. Roger sings it in unison with him, and is higher in the mix. Again, it's possible it's not an overdub and that Freddie had a good night to hit the note once. |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2010 11:36 |
He only hit that note a couple times during the North American leg! |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 12:25 |
It's true, the numbers are what they are. But without having all the necessary research materials available, it's impossible to make certain conclusions. |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2010 12:28 |
But we can be skeptics! I'm positive that A4 is dubbed: We don't have all the recordings, but that A4 sounds way too unstrained (especially since it's the 1979 leg of this tour). Almost all of Freddie's notes above F#4 on this leg sounded forced or strained! |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2010 14:20 |
True, so in that case you're probably right. |
| strangefrontier 03.11.2010 14:21 |
Intersting topic this one with lots of views...I don't think we will ever have the definitive answer though! Well done to all for all the research so far. Dean |
| rhyeking 03.11.2010 16:14 |
Not sure how valuable this info is, but I'll throw it out there anyway... Consulting my notes, I see the Jazz Tour European leg ended March 1st, 1979. The Jazz Tour Japanese leg started April 13th, 1979. The Jazz Tour Japanese leg ended May 6th, 1979. Live Killers was released June 22, 1979 Assuming the band was not working on the album (selecting tracks, over-dubbing, etc) while in Japan, that only leaves the month of March and maybe part of April to do a lot of the work of selecting tracks and probably the month of May to do the overdubbing. It's an educated guess that the overdubs would be among the last things they'd do for the album. Here's why I think that: First, someone has to comb through hours of concert recordings to find the good tracks. I'm not sure if this would be the band themselves or an engineer or producer. They probably selected two or three (or more) recordings of each track. Second, this person would present the tracks to the band for consideration. Third step, the band weighs the merits of the tracks, argues over quality and eventually picks what they agree are the best takes. This step is possibly where the decision is made to edit multiple takes together, with an eye on doing overdubs once this first mix is done. Fourth, said engineer and producer go back to the studio and mix a rough cut of the album, probably while the band is in Japan. Fifth, the band returns and listens to the rough mix, deciding what needs to be 'corrected' with overdubs. Sixth, the band, either individually or together, record the overdubs (we're now likely into May, 1979). Seventh, the final mix is done,approved by the band (grudgingly in Roger's case, so I've read), sent to the record company, pressed and packaged, and then released (June 22, 1979). |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2010 16:41 |
RhyeKing's comment makes sense. Plus, it also answers why Freddie sounds so freaking STRAINED while "singing" Champions! |
| marvinp01 03.11.2010 22:06 |
Gregsynth wrote: RhyeKing's comment makes sense. Plus, it also answers why Freddie sounds so freaking STRAINED while "singing" Champions! i doubt freddie left his overdubbed "strained" vocals on purpose in we are the champions. It is probably the actual performance from yugoslavia. |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2010 22:28 |
It isn't. It's an obvious studio dub. |
| Dane 04.11.2010 04:05 |
As always, so many opinions, so little facts. But on a short note, I too hate these overdubs, first time I saw the Wembley VHS I was stunned at the level of overdubs on there. It's almost better to ask DoRo to cut a nice live video to some studio songs with audience overdubs. |
| Bad Seed 04.11.2010 08:24 |
Alhough I'd prefer a nice faultess live performance, I really dont mind the overdubs. I'd rather have an odd overdub than an awful vocal crack, or Brian's STL solo from Sao Paulo. However I can't understand why Freddie would overdub perfectly good whole song's like on Montreal (I know few agree with that). I would imagine DTMN and WATC have been done for LK, but would be suprised if that A4 in LMEY is a overdub? Why would they bother to do 1 word which is mixed below Roger? Unless it was a crack? |
| The Real Wizard 04.11.2010 10:23 |
marvinp01 wrote:
It is probably the actual performance from yugoslavia.Yugoslavia? Who started that fable, anyway? Bad Seed wrote: However I can't understand why Freddie would overdub perfectly good whole song's like on Montreal (I know few agree with that).I wouldn't doubt it. Which songs do you think were overdubbed for Montreal? I haven't really analyzed this one. |
| Bad Seed 04.11.2010 11:06 |
Sir GH wrote: marvinp01 wrote: It is probably the actual performance from yugoslavia. Yugoslavia? Who started that fable, anyway? ====================== Bad Seed wrote: However I can't understand why Freddie would overdub perfectly good whole song's like on Montreal (I know few agree with that). I wouldn't doubt it. Which songs do you think were overdubbed for Montreal? I haven't really analyzed this one. ====================== Im certain about Jailhouse Rock, think Bo Rap (rock section), and NIH being the main ones. Compare the audience version of JR, apart from the his ad-libs its completely dubbed. Got some good evidence for NIH today when comparing the old WWRY with RM, but dont have time to tell at the mo. |
| Gregsynth 04.11.2010 11:30 |
Well Montreal was filmed over two nights. They most likely switched the audio from night to night. Here's Jailhouse Rock from the audience Recording (11/24/1981) |
| The Real Wizard 04.11.2010 12:04 |
Bad Seed wrote:
Im certain about Jailhouse Rock, think Bo Rap (rock section), and NIH being the main ones. Compare the audience version of JR, apart from the his ad-libs its completely dubbedIt was done over two nights, so unless an audience recording of the 25th pops up, we can't know for sure. But you're right, his voice does somehow sound different on these songs. |
| Wiley 04.11.2010 12:52 |
The Yugoslavia story came from someone claiming to be from Zagreb who said that Freddie said something in the local language during -I think- We are the Champions so that song "had to be" from that gig. |
| Bad Seed 04.11.2010 13:23 |
Gregsynth wrote: Well Montreal was filmed over two nights. They most likely switched the audio from night to night. Here's Jailhouse Rock from the audience Recording (11/24/1981) ========================================= True, but thats a bit like saying LK was recorded over 27 nights, so most likely the overdubs we're discussing come from a night not bootlegged. AND Jailhouse Rock was only performed on the first night (apparently) |
| Bad Seed 04.11.2010 13:34 |
Sir GH wrote: Bad Seed wrote: Im certain about Jailhouse Rock, think Bo Rap (rock section), and NIH being the main ones. Compare the audience version of JR, apart from the his ad-libs its completely dubbed It was done over two nights, so unless an audience recording of the 25th pops up, we can't know for sure. But you're right, his voice does somehow sound different on these songs. ========= Decided to start a new topic on this |
| Gregsynth 04.11.2010 22:27 |
Jailhouse Rock was played on both nights. |
| The Real Wizard 05.11.2010 09:36 |
How do we know that for sure? Has anyone stated for certain that it was the same setlist both nights? |
| Gregsynth 05.11.2010 11:29 |
Well, someone at the Queen convention (at my table) said they played the same set-list on both nights (she's from Montreal and attended both concerts). Plus on your website, it states that one: JR was played both nights, and two: Freddie wore pants during the encores of the second night. Well on the DVD, we've got Freddie in pants (2nd night's footage--Brian and Roger talk about the editing around then), but the audio matches the audience recording from the 1st night. |
| The Real Wizard 05.11.2010 12:17 |
Gregsynth wrote:
Well, someone at the Queen convention (at my table) said they played the same set-list on both nights (she's from Montreal and attended both concerts).Cool, thanks for the info. I was pretty sure they had played Jailhouse on both nights, but perhaps they played Need Your Loving Tonight or Fat Bottomed Girls on the second night. Good work, guys. |
| Gregsynth 05.11.2010 12:23 |
If they played NYLT at Montreal, Freddie would've nailed it! |
| tommycharles 07.11.2010 22:56 |
Bad Seed wrote: Alhough I'd prefer a nice faultess live performance, I really dont mind the overdubs. I'd rather have an odd overdub than an awful vocal crack, or Brian's STL solo from Sao Paulo. However I can't understand why Freddie would overdub perfectly good whole song's like on Montreal (I know few agree with that). Seeing that made me curious, so off to youtube I went, and wowwwwwwwww. That must have been painful for Brian as well. |
| Bigfish 08.11.2010 13:19 |
Gregsynth wrote: UPDATE: Here's Let Me Entertain You from Live Killers... 0-53 seconds: Rotterdam 1st night 53- 1:08 : Munich 1:09 - 1:30: Rotterdam 1st night 1:31- 1:40 : Unknown 1:41- 1:45: Munich 1:46- 1:53: Rotterdam 1st night (includes studio overdubs) 1:54-2:06: Unknown 2:07-2:48: Rotterdam 1st night Hi, Sorry Greg but, and stop me if I'm wrong, even the biggest bands very rarely play a song exactly the same pace and if you listen to loads of Queen recordings of the same song it's certainly true of them. Now, 30 years ago when Killers was recorded studios didn't have the digital technology to speed up and slow down stuff without altering the tone which would have made piecing a song together from loads of different recordings pretty difficult. Couple of performances yes but 4, 5, 6 or 7 - no. I bought the vinyl in 79 and I've really never stopped to wonder where it was recorded except for knowing it was the european Jazz tour . Have heard that Paris and Frankfurt feature heavily but hey, that's too much information already. |
| Gregsynth 08.11.2010 17:22 |
That is completely true. I don't think you'll find any performance from a band that has two identical versions of a song. My friend TSS Killer was the one that made these findings--I'm just writing them down. I haven't studied Live Killers enough to make calls on gigs or anything like that. |
| Wiley 08.11.2010 17:47 |
If you check Sir GH's Live Killers analysis you will find that Queen did make a lot of cuts and edits on Live Killers. Songs like Brighton Rock feature bits from 5 or more different gigs. There is also strong evidence indicating several overdubs, like the vocal intro to "Don't Stop Me Now". Apparently, there is no bootleg with Freddie singing this. NOT ONE. The song's intro was entirely instrumental each night. There is still a slight chance that Freddie did sing those bits in a concert which was not bootlegged... but it's very slim. |