| queen79luca 30.09.2010 08:07 |
We know that in the albums AKOM, TM and Innuendo at least a lot of work of the drums were done not by Roger , but by a drum machine. It was in the same in the first albums or what we hear it s just Roger's work? |
| rhyeking 30.09.2010 09:49 |
I'm sure more musically trained people can give a better answer, but there is difference between drum machines and using electronic drums. I know Queen have used programmed drums on several tracks ("I Can't Live With You" and "Thank God It's Christmas", to name two). Electronic drums are just drums, but you can program the sounds they produce, to get weird, funky sounds, or just other percussion sounds, like bongos or steel drums or whatever. You still need someone to actually play the drums. |
| queen79luca 30.09.2010 10:55 |
Ok, this is a good answer, but still a part of it. In the first albums its just Roger play a normal drum kit, being recorded of course, what we hear as final result? |
| cmsdrums 30.09.2010 14:42 |
I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me can advise (Sebastian), but I'd say that all the drums were real acoustic drums up to and including News of the World. To my ears, Jazz features the first use of non- acoustic drums, and utlilises electronic drums, but these are still played 'live' by Roger and not programmed - certainly to my ears Fun It uses completely electronic drums (and possibly no acoustic cymbals at all too?). after that, the technology of the day became more and more used on Queen drums tracks Examples that spring to mind are; The Game: - Dragon Attack IS Roger playing, but only a couple of bars which are then copied and looped over and over. Hot Space :- Features both electronic drums played 'live' and pre-programmed drums from a computer (as well as acoustic drums too). The Works: Awful acoustic drum sound(!), and some electronic toms on Keep Passing The Open Windows and Hammer To Fall, and the obvious and intentional use of drum machines changing into acoustic drums on Machines (..or Back To Humans) (interestingly the distinction of electronic vs acoustic drums is a lot clearer and effective on the remastered albums on tracks like Staying Power and Machines...) A Kind Of Magic - very sterile drum sound (to me) all round on this album and lots of programmed drums on tracks like One Year of Love, A Kind Of Magic and Pain Is So Close To Pleasure The Miracle:- Probably utilises the best mixes of electronic vs acoustic drums. Drum machines are obviously a useful tool for writing, but the previous few albums had seen the band stick with these (lazy?) at the expense of having Roger re-play programmed parts. Invisible Man and Party for example actually feature a lot of acoustic drums, but peole tend to thik they don't simply because of the style of song they are. Whilst these two tracks do contain a lot of programming, this is not at the expense of acoustic drums ,and they both compliment the songs. Innuendo:- Tracks like All God's People and These Are the Days Of Our Lives feature mostly programmed drum and percusson tracks, although the former has some nice real drums by Roger during the heavier '12 blues' type section. I think Inneundo features probably the most instances of triggered drums sounds whereby Roger played a lot of parts, but the acoustic sounds were replaced by an electronically generated audio sample (Quite common nowadays with most 'rock' bands) Made In Heaven:- Mostly acoustic and a nice 'room' type drum sound. Whilst this is by no means a track by track analysis, it hopefully gives a general overview of how the drums worked throughout the years. I think Queen were effectively a good 'barometer' of the studio technology of the times throughout their recordings - whatever technologies were the latest thing, you can guarantee that Queen used them (sometimes just 'dabbling' ,sometimes more heavily). Hope this is of help |
| queen79luca 30.09.2010 15:48 |
That s great "cms drums" ! It really helps. Thanks! |
| ploughman 29.09.2015 02:05 |
I have grown more and more fond of The Miracle album. David Richards did a beutiful job on it production wise. It was the last album done on the analog tape and they still used a lots of programmed stuff there. Lots of the songs have acoustic drums on them , but the programming on the top of it has been done really cleverly. I Want it All for example: Basic acoustic drum beat but on the top of the bassdrum and snare drum there are samples and gated reverb + during the choruses a programmed shaker and a tambourine. Scandal must be my favourite when talking about production. Again the drums are real, but there are sampling and of course these arpeggiator rythms (and furthermore: vibraslap, effected cymbals, varisped guitar chords etc). The clever thing is that on the every 4th snare drum there is a different triggered (deeper, more reverb) snare sound on the top of that. Listening to AKOM again: there arent really many live drumtracks! One Vision and Princess of the Universe for sure, but the rest of them. Even Who Wants to live forever sound s little bit programmed, but might be real. On Innuendo there is more programming than on The Miracle. I cant Live With You beaing the worst example. The drums there are only machines. The title track and Show Must Go On however are totally livedrums. Recorded at the Casino Hall in Montreaux, hence the huge reverb. |
| Biggus Dickus 29.09.2015 02:26 |
The show must go on also has an interesing change in snare sound going back and forth in the 'my soul is painted...' section. |
| ploughman 29.09.2015 15:19 |
Biggus Dickus wrote: The show must go on also has an interesing change in snare sound going back and forth in the 'my soul is painted...' section.That is just plain flanger-effect. I think the flanger is only on overhead channels so part of the snare sound aswell as all the cymbals are affected by this. |
| Biggus Dickus 29.09.2015 23:18 |
ploughman wrote:Yeah, I didn't think it was a drum machine. Thanks for the detailed info.Biggus Dickus wrote: The show must go on also has an interesing change in snare sound going back and forth in the 'my soul is painted...' section.That is just plain flanger-effect. I think the flanger is only on overhead channels so part of the snare sound aswell as all the cymbals are affected by this. |
| Sebastian 30.09.2015 06:05 |
As far as I know, 'Show Must Go On' was recorded in London, not Montreux. Moreover, it does have programmed drums alongside the live ones, as stems confirm. |
| cmsdrums 30.09.2015 06:52 |
Sebastian wrote: As far as I know, 'Show Must Go On' was recorded in London, not Montreux. Moreover, it does have programmed drums alongside the live ones, as stems confirm.Hi Seb. I haven't got the stems for this so can you say which section have got programmed drums please? Thanks. (I think it's a ridiculous decision for them to do that, on a track that suits Roger's sound and playing perfectly). |
| ploughman 02.10.2015 00:01 |
Sebastian wrote: As far as I know, 'Show Must Go On' was recorded in London, not Montreux. Moreover, it does have programmed drums alongside the live ones, as stems confirm.On Show Must go On I can only hear the "sampled" bassdrum and snare drum. No programing that I'm aware of? I Want it All has a shaker and tambourine programmed during choruses. |
| Sebastian 02.10.2015 05:53 |
A short sample (the beginning of the second chorus). First, you can hear Roger's acoustic drums. Then, Brian's (I assume, or perhaps David's) programmed drums. Then, both of them together. |
| Sebastian 02.10.2015 05:55 |
Just the acoustic kit all throughout. |
| Sebastian 02.10.2015 05:56 |
Just the digital parts all throughout. |
| Sebastian 02.10.2015 05:57 |
And now both real and programmed for the entire song. |
| cmsdrums 02.10.2015 06:10 |
Cheers Seb - I look forward to checking these out later! |
| Fireplace 03.10.2015 17:01 |
Seb, could you give me a clue as to what drum machine was used on Machines/Back To Humans? |
| Sebastian 03.10.2015 17:05 |
I'm assuming Linn LM-1 for 'Hot Space', LinnDrum (aka Linn LM-2) for 'The Works', Linn 9000 for 'Magic' and 'The Miracle' and the drum sounds from the Korg M1 for 'Innuendo' and perhaps 'Made in Heaven' (at least 'Mother Love'). |
| Fireplace 03.10.2015 17:27 |
Sebastian wrote: I'm assuming Linn LM-1 for 'Hot Space', LinnDrum (aka Linn LM-2) for 'The Works', Linn 9000 for 'Magic' and 'The Miracle' and the drum sounds from the Korg M1 for 'Innuendo' and perhaps 'Made in Heaven' (at least 'Mother Love').Thanks, you're a gem! |
| Mr.QueenFan 03.10.2015 18:41 |
cmsdrums wrote: (...) The Game: - Dragon Attack IS Roger playing, but only a couple of bars which are then copied and looped over and over. .That was a great post cmsdrums, all of it! I'm just highlighting this bit, because i think you meant to say "Another one bites to dust" instead of "Dragon Attack". |
| Sebastian 03.10.2015 20:43 |
Actually, both of Roger's songs on that album, plus both 'Dust' and 'Dragon', are based on loops. Roger did play a live backing track on Freddie's songs, on 'Save Me', 'Sail Away Sweet Sister' and on 'Need Your Loving Tonight', and of course he overdubbed his drum solo on top of the looped part on 'Dragon Attack.' Queen recorded percussion in quite a few different ways: * Live, usually with bass and either guitar or piano. That was their No 1 approach in the early days, and also used occasionally afterwards (e.g., 'Was It All Worth It'). No metronomes used, so if they all got slightly slower or quicker, they'd do it together, which is far better than machines. * Overdubbed on top of either a loop or more percussion. Examples abound: the extra snare on 'Bo Rhap' (fanfare section), the tambourine on 'Keep Yourself Alive', most handclaps, the solo on 'Dragon Attack', etc. * Roger played the beat for a few bars and then got looped: 'Coming Soon', 'Rock It', 'Dragon Attack', 'Another One Bites the Dust', possibly 'Fun It.' * Whoever composed the song used loops/samples from Roger's playing, and then Rog used that as a guide track to play along, then the samples would get wiped out leaving only Roger's live playing: 'The Hero,' and possibly a few others in that era. * Drum-machines (aka drum-computers): Quite a few songs from 'Hot Space' onwards. Usually programmed by either the author of the song, or by the additional producer. The basic idea would be for Roger to use that as a guide track to record his human drums on top of it and then they'd mix them both (e.g. 'Action This Day' and 'Back Chat'). Sometimes, however, there would be no Roger at all (e.g. 'Body Language' and 'Staying Power'). They could also be used to reinforce existing human drums (e.g. 'I Want It All'). * Synth-generated drums: Sounds come from a keyboard synth instead of the drum computer. Same process as with drum machines. The basic idea would be for Roger to use that as a guide track to record his human drums on top of it and then they'd mix them both (e.g. 'Show Must Go On' and 'Headlong'). There's also a difference, that people often mix up, between drum loops, drum machines, e-drums and synth-drums. They're all quite different from each other. |
| cmsdrums 04.10.2015 04:18 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote:I think Seb has already answered for me, but yes, Roger's playing is looped on both 'Another One Bites The Dust' AND 'Dragon Attack'!cmsdrums wrote: (...) The Game: - Dragon Attack IS Roger playing, but only a couple of bars which are then copied and looped over and over. .That was a great post cmsdrums, all of it! I'm just highlighting this bit, because i think you meant to say "Another one bites to dust" instead of "Dragon Attack". |
| ludwigs 04.10.2015 08:51 |
As is BM's guitar and Deacy's bass. During the vocal parts/verses you can still hear the bass and guitar pattern continue but obviously turned way down (Maybe tape bleed??) Appears to be a 3 cycle loop. The guitar pattern starts and at the end of the phrase - a brief feedback squeak, 2nd time a strings palm-mute double hit and third one nothing - this repeats throughout the song. |
| mooghead 04.10.2015 09:58 |
Kudos to Roger for playing Dragon Attack all the way through live... his right wrist must have been killing by the end... not a problem I have as my right wrist gets plenty of exercise.... |
| Oscar J 04.10.2015 10:39 |
Dragon attack isn't all that bad - check out Modern Times Rock'n Roll from March's Rainbow and watch him pulling faces. Close to SCC tempo, but he insists on doing 8ths in the verses. |
| Mr.QueenFan 04.10.2015 15:35 |
cmsdrums wrote:Well, in that case, i stand corrected! I only heard Mack saying that about AOBTD.Mr.QueenFan wrote:I think Seb has already answered for me, but yes, Roger's playing is looped on both 'Another One Bites The Dust' AND 'Dragon Attack'!cmsdrums wrote: (...) The Game: - Dragon Attack IS Roger playing, but only a couple of bars which are then copied and looped over and over. .That was a great post cmsdrums, all of it! I'm just highlighting this bit, because i think you meant to say "Another one bites to dust" instead of "Dragon Attack". Thank you and Sebastian for the clarification. |
| Mr.QueenFan 04.10.2015 15:39 |
mooghead wrote: Kudos to Roger for playing Dragon Attack all the way through live... his right wrist must have been killing by the end... not a problem I have as my right wrist gets plenty of exercise....And that was the reason i thought Dragon Attack was played by Roger in the studio. I remember one old interview from Roger when he stated that Dragon Attack was one of the most difficult songs for him to play live (in the old days), because it was very hard for his right wrist. I don't know if you read the same interview but you made a very good observation. |
| Sebastian 04.10.2015 15:54 |
There are quite a few songs Roger played all throughout live but which were partly, chiefly or sometimes even exclusively loops, machines or synths in the studio: * Dragon Attack * Another One Bites the Dust * Rock It * Staying Power * Back Chat * Body Language * Action This Day * Radio Ga Ga * I Want to Break Free * One Vision (possibly?) * A Kind of Magic * Friends Will Be Friends * The Show Must Go On I've still got my doubts about 'Days of Our Lives' and 'Ride the Wild Wind'. At different points of my life, I've been convinced they're all programmed, or all live, or a bit of each, but I'm still unsure. |
| ploughman 04.10.2015 16:22 |
Sebastian wrote: There are quite a few songs Roger played all throughout live but which were partly, chiefly or sometimes even exclusively loops, machines or synths in the studio: * Dragon Attack * Another One Bites the Dust * Rock It * Staying Power * Back Chat * Body Language * Action This Day * Radio Ga Ga * I Want to Break Free * One Vision (possibly?) * A Kind of Magic * Friends Will Be Friends * The Show Must Go On I've still got my doubts about 'Days of Our Lives' and 'Ride the Wild Wind'. At different points of my life, I've been convinced they're all programmed, or all live, or a bit of each, but I'm still unsure.Most of the Works songs are drum machines, like Radio GaGa, Break Free. Also Friends will be Friends is a programmed drum pattern. One Vision and Show Must Go On are live drums. I think the weird drum sound on One Vision is coming from the AMS delay machine which they used to generate samples on top of the snare (LinnDrum or 909 samples). Also the middle bit is programmed (or more likely played usng drum pads). It is a wild drum loop of conga sunds from LinnDrum. I have the same samples and they are perfect match. Show Must Go on is done by David Richrads and it is definitely samples on bot kick and snare. Again AMS delay triggering LinnDrum. On the transitions from verse to chorus there are extra drumsamples playing the fills. A little bit like during I want it All (going from the second verse to second prechorus) |
| Oscar J 04.10.2015 17:00 |
Again, Dragon Attack isn't all that bad for the right wrist. It's 16ths at just 90 bpm. MTRNR had 8ths at about 220 - 230 bpm depending on the night. Which equals 16ths at 110 - 115 bpm (Not even taking into account the double stroke bass drum and higher energy compared to Dragon Attack). But then the early 70's featured Roger in better overall physical shape IMO. In fact, The Game tour was the first tour where Roger's playing seemed significantly inferior to the tour before. He started slipping a bit in his big endings (Check TYMD at Montreal), played Sheer Heart Attack in a much "safer" way, and developed a weird habit of just sitting crooked over his Hi-Hat during the songs (again, check Montreal). |
| Mr.QueenFan 04.10.2015 17:46 |
Oscar J wrote: Again, Dragon Attack isn't all that bad for the right wrist. It's 16ths at just 90 bpm. MTRNR had 8ths at about 220 - 230 bpm depending on the night. Which equals 16ths at 110 - 115 bpm (Not even taking into account the double stroke bass drum and higher energy compared to Dragon Attack). But then the early 70's featured Roger in better overall physical shape IMO. In fact, The Game tour was the first tour where Roger's playing seemed significantly inferior to the tour before. He started slipping a bit in his big endings (Check TYMD at Montreal), played Sheer Heart Attack in a much "safer" way, and developed a weird habit of just sitting crooked over his Hi-Hat during the songs (again, check Montreal).Maybe you'll find this article an interesting read, that will possibly answer some of your questions. Roger talks about efficiency when playing the drums. link "We used to do a song called Dragon Attack that was very hard on the right wrist (...)" From my point of view, i think Roger is talking about the power of the attack with which he has to play Dragon Attack for it to have the right feeling VS speed of the song. I'm not a drummer, so i can't tell. But i appreciate your input on this matter. |