| Gregsynth 29.06.2010 03:20 |
The biggest question I have, is when was this recorded? Some people say it's from the early 70s, while others say it's from the late 70s. |
| marvinp01 29.06.2010 09:25 |
1977 |
| rhyeking 29.06.2010 09:43 |
The demo I've heard floating around has chatter at the beginning, including the infamous line from Freddie saying, "I know he doesn't know it..." and doesn't fade out, but rather finishes with big guitar flourish. The posted version above sounds like it was altered in order to sound more like a finished track. |
| joesilvey 29.06.2010 10:12 |
is it possible that it's running a bit fast, therefore pitched up? I've read the various contentions that place the recording in the NOTW sessions, and I can't argue with the logic... but Freddie sounds young - like Queen I young, unless the speed is off. |
| bigV 29.06.2010 10:20 |
joesilvey wrote: is it possible that it's running a bit fast, therefore pitched up? I've read the various contentions that place the recording in the NOTW sessions, and I can't argue with the logic... but Freddie sounds young - like Queen I young, unless the speed is off. If you ask me, Freddie sounds "pre-Queen young". His voice sounds almost the same as on "I Can Hear Music". V. |
| pittrek 29.06.2010 10:46 |
marvinp01 wrote: 1977 I think I go to heaven Cos' I been too long on the dole And I can't work at ll Danger stranger You Better Pain Your Face No Elvis, Beatles or The Rolling Stones In 1977 ,,, Sorry I couldn't resist :-) |
| The Real Wizard 29.06.2010 13:04 |
Indeed, the tape is playing too fast. That's why his voice sounds a few years younger. |
| mike7 29.06.2010 17:24 |
This song was written by Tim Staffel in the band Smile. This is a unreleased track from the Queen's debut album sessions. Therefore, it was recording about 1971-1972(probably)because the freddie's voice is similar to the voice of songs "goin'back" or "I can hear music". |
| 99jaystang 29.06.2010 19:51 |
It's a mystery because I can hear Roger playing with Roto Toms or the Ludwig Timbales, which he used on stage beginning late 76- onwards. But Freddies voice sounds like its early 70's |
| Jazz 78 29.06.2010 21:15 |
The song was recorded during the NOTW sessions. One of the giveaways (especially for drummers) is that Roger is now using Ludwig timbales. He didn't have these for the ADATR sessions or tours. These were acquired prior to the NOTW sessions. The sound of the drums is the same at the those sessions as well. There is also prominant use of a China type cymbal. During Queen's early years Roger didn't use a China. Not until ADATR did he start using them as can be heard in Somebody to Love and can be seen in the video too. The bottom line? Roger's drums are the clue to the year of this recording. Freddie's voice sounds "younger" because the recording is slighly sped up. |
| Jam Monkey 30.06.2010 01:02 |
I slowed down the track in Audacity slightly, and the effect on Freddie's voice was a shock; he sounds alot older. |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 02:30 |
This is hilarious. Let's alter the existing the evidence because part of it doesn't fit our theory. We're stuck, because Freddie's voice doesn't match with the age of the drum sound, so we change his voice, because CLEARLY that's the problem. Yeah, that's some top-notch detective work there. We learned that slowing the pitch down makes Freddie sound older. Ignoring the fact that the guitar seems to drop to a different key and the drums just sound odd, Freddie's voice now sounds like it might have in 1977. We're in what's called a Catch 22 here, boys and girls. The 1977 theory only holds up if you concede that the existing recording floating around fandom is being listened to at the wrong pitch (too high). In order for us to concede that the pitch is too high and should be slowed down, we have to believe that the recording originates from 1977. We believe the recording is from 1977 because we believe the pitch is too high, so we slow it down so it will sound like it's from 1977. And around and around we go. If we choose not to take the recording at face value, no argument can logically win. This is so because we simply do not have enough information about this recording. We infere and guess and try to support our theories with facts that only account for a portion of what we are hearing. Once we alter the evidence we have, the recording, the debate is finished. We can go no further building a case either way because the foundation upon which we theorize has been compromised, utterly and completely. "Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate" William of Ockham |
| pittrek 30.06.2010 02:58 |
Oh my God people ! Have you ever heard songs like Cool Cat demo, or Pain Is So Close To Pleasure ? I think Freddie sounds like "1972-Freddie" there too, but these songs were recorded in the 80's. I hear absolutely no evidence which would allow me to assume that the demo runs too fast. Everything sounds like running in the correct speed to my ears |
| brians wig 30.06.2010 04:58 |
I don't understand why Greg doesn't just solve the mystery for us, or does he only reply to threads where he gets slagged off? Gary Taylor!!! Any ideas mate? |
| Rick 30.06.2010 06:18 |
It's 1977, without a single doubt. Roger used a completely different drum kit in the early years, thus had a completely different sound. This song is on the same tape as Feelings Feelings, which is also from 1977. Also, Brian's guitar sound is very NOTW-ish. A plain, simple, hard rocking guitar in comparison to the more harmonic, synth-like guitar sound from the early years. |
| Holly2003 30.06.2010 07:34 |
Rick wrote: It's 1977, without a single doubt. Roger used a completely different drum kit in the early years, thus had a completely different sound. This song is on the same tape as Feelings Feelings, which is also from 1977. Also, Brian's guitar sound is very NOTW-ish. A plain, simple, hard rocking guitar in comparison to the more harmonic, synth-like guitar sound from the early years. I would guess most demos from the early years had the plain, simple guitar on them too. Agree this is something that could be cleared up simply and easily by someone close to the band. But of course there's no profit to be made from freely sharing such info -- unfortunately Queen reps only post here to ask for information, not to provide it. |
| Gregsynth 30.06.2010 07:37 |
pittrek wrote: Oh my God people ! Have you ever heard songs like Cool Cat demo, or Pain Is So Close To Pleasure ? I think Freddie sounds like "1972-Freddie" there too, but these songs were recorded in the 80's. I hear absolutely no evidence which would allow me to assume that the demo runs too fast. Everything sounds like running in the correct speed to my ears =================== No, it's WAY too fast. |
| Gregsynth 30.06.2010 07:39 |
It's got to be from the late 70s, listen to Freddie's timbre--identical to the NOTW era. The youtube video is sped up around half a semitone--making Freddie's voice seem higher (like the early 70s). When it was corrected, you can hear Freddie's "real" timbre. |
| DanQueen2008 30.06.2010 08:28 |
Silver salmon was recorded between 1973 and 1974. Not finished for Queen I but was originally going to be included on Queen II |
| The Real Wizard 30.06.2010 09:21 |
I can't believe this is still going on.. Here's all the evidence to prove (not suggest - PROVE) this recording is from 1977: -Roger's drum kit contains timbales, which he used ONLY on the NOTW album. -Roger's drum style is greatly evolved. He didn't use the "slightly open hi-hat with snare" technique in the early days like he did by 1977. -The sound on Feelings Feelings and Silver Salmon is identical - mix, EQ, everything. Even before Freddie's voice is brought into the argument, it's done. Case closed. Undebatable. Next topic. |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 10:34 |
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Obi Wan Kenobi (I couldn't resist.) Seriously, though, you may have convinced yourself, SirGH, but *demanding* that the rest of Queen Fandom adhere to your theory is ignorant, pathetic and silly. You're not going to win any supporters with that attitude that "I'm right, here's why and no further discussion is needed!" Why does it anger you so that we're debating the possibilities? Why do you want us to blindly follow you when we're capable of drawing our own conclusions, which, as much as it seems to bother you, may actually seem different from yours? You have your reasons for believing the track is from 1977, but many of us, while open to the possibility, are not entirely convinced. I'm waiting on an official confirmation one way or the other. |
| marvinp01 30.06.2010 10:35 |
mike7 wrote: This song was written by Tim Staffel in the band Smile. This is a unreleased track from the Queen's debut album sessions. Therefore, it was recording about 1971-1972(probably)because the freddie's voice is similar to the voice of songs "goin'back" or "I can hear music". There is that jam sessions entitled Feelings from 1977, in that jam session Freddie sings lyrics from both songs "Feelings, Feelings" and "Silver Salmon...." CASE SOLVED |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 11:14 |
Actually, the tape floating around features "Feelings" followed by "Silver Salmon," both are argued to be from 1973. The only thing people generally agree on is that "Feeling Feelings" is from 1977. I have not heard or been made aware of any recording claiming to contain all three songs, let alone one that can be authenticated as being from 1977. I've said it before and I'll say it again: We don't know enough about the source of this recording to draw a final conclusion. All existing theories could be undermined by an official confirmation of the exact details of these recordings. Until then, all we're doing here, all we're capable of doing (despite how firmly held our beliefs are), is THEORIZING. Questions I'd like answered are: Who first leaked these three recordings? What was the source of these recordings, were they planned to be featured at a Fan Club Con, like the Miracle Demos Medley, or were they taken from tapes in QP's vault directly? Or were they made at some other point? Were "Feelings" and "Silver Salmon" edited together OR recorded together on the same tape? Is the person who leaked them in a position to say without question what the sources, original or copy of a copy, was? Answering these questions definitively would go far to clearing up some of the confusion. |
| Rubbersuit 30.06.2010 11:53 |
Listen to Silver Salmon while looking at a picture of NOTW and it sounds like it fits. Listen to it while looking at a picture of Queen 1 and it looks like it fits. Sir GH presents better arguements than "Fred sounds young" and has convinced me that it's from 1977 until I hear/see anything more convincing. |
| Rubbersuit 30.06.2010 11:55 |
Oh, and I agree. If Queen Archivist chooses to participate in Queenzone forums, he should occassionally throw us a bone and settle a debate or two. It seems he only comes on here to stir the pot or beg for information. |
| greaserkat 30.06.2010 13:46 |
Where's John S. Stuart? |
| The Real Wizard 30.06.2010 14:02 |
rhyeking wrote: "Why does it anger you so that we're debating the possibilities? Why do you want us to blindly follow you when we're capable of drawing our own conclusions, which, as much as it seems to bother you, may actually seem different from yours?" I'm not angry. This is just a bunch of text on a screen. What other people want to believe doesn't bother me in the least. And I'm certainly not asking anyone to blindly follow "me". It's not me who created the history. I'm simply putting two and two together based on the information available to us. Anyone is qualified to make informed historical conclusions, so I'm all ears. But at this point all we have suggesting this track is from 1971 or 72 is a series of what ifs, and not a single compelling argument. I'm always open to correcting myself, and I'll do so as soon as someone can prove that Roger used his 1977 News Of The World kit during a different time period. As for the speed of the recording, it is indeed too fast which makes Freddie sound younger. But the recording posted here was slowed down a bit too much. The happy medium is there in the middle. It was a slight misjudgment, but nobody's tampering with history here. I'm a musician with absolute pitch, so I can instantly pick out when the speed of a recording is off. This can greatly affect the aural appearance of a voice. Just listen to Robert Plant on the studio version of The Song Remains The Same and then any subsequent live version, even from 1972, a few months after it was recorded. He almost sounds like a different singer. |
| Jam Monkey 30.06.2010 14:23 |
If I agree to share Assassin, Face It Alone and Victory will you guys agree to stop arguing? |
| The Real Wizard 30.06.2010 14:40 |
No way man. Forums are a great place to exchange ideas and learn, not to be complacent. But feel free to share the tracks. |
| Sebastian 30.06.2010 14:48 |
Regarding Rog using his NOTW kit at some other point: he coul've used it for Jazz sessions (which started shortly after the NOTW tour ended, and that tour included the Rototoms). And, if he didn't destroy the kit, he could've used it at any point from 1977 onwards (e.g. Game sessions, Works sessions...) And BTW, there's nothing to categorically state that Rog used timbales ONLY on the NOTW album. Again, unless he had some sort of condition in which he'd implode otherwise, he could've used timbales at any point since he was aged 2 until the day he dies or loses control of his hand. The fact there are no pix of Rog using timbales during SHA sessions (for instance) doesn't prove he didn't use them then. So: - It's not case closed. - It's not undebatable. - It's not PROVEN, it's only SUGGESTED that it probably comes (instrument-wise at least) from post-Races sessions (which could still cover Game, Flash, etc.) |
| Dim 30.06.2010 15:08 |
In the end of Siver Salmon, Brian does a pending, same pending does on Feeling or This Feeling(which title is correct?). listen at 2:10 This song It sounds very Led Zeppelin, Queen and Freddie sound like 1971-73. So this song emerges to Silver salmon or the opposite? I don't know. You can find it : link Maybe we have a case of re-working an unreleased song during NOTW. |
| Dim 30.06.2010 15:16 |
I was speaking of Silver Salmon long version, you can find it on youtube. In term of music is very early 70's, I thing they were re-working it during NOTW. |
| The Real Wizard 30.06.2010 16:37 |
Sebastian wrote: "And BTW, there's nothing to categorically state that Rog used timbales ONLY on the NOTW album. Again, unless he had some sort of condition in which he'd implode otherwise, he could've used timbales at any point since he was aged 2 until the day he dies or loses control of his hand. The fact there are no pix of Rog using timbales during SHA sessions (for instance) doesn't prove he didn't use them then." Yes, technically you're right. But with this kind of stance, we might as well scrap the entire concept of investigative history and conclude that we can't reach reasonable conclusions about any past event without pictorial evidence. |
| Gregsynth 30.06.2010 16:52 |
All I know is that the song originally was conceived during the "Smile" era (early 70s). I'm going for the 1977 date, because of Freddie's voice. |
| Sebastian 30.06.2010 17:25 |
> But with this kind of stance, we might as well scrap the entire concept of investigative history and conclude that we can't reach reasonable conclusions about any past event without pictorial evidence. Not quite. But we can't reach reasonable conclusions (let alone 'case closed, undebatable, next topic' stances) based on such a limited set of details. Keep in mind that the band members used tons of things in the studio that they didn't use live or at least that they hadn't incorporated to their live gear. Rog didn't use a gong on stage until late '75, but it didn't stop him from recording one in '73. Brian only played acoustic guitar live from '76 onwards, but he was recording with them since at least '69. John only played guitar live in '82 and '84, yet he'd been recording guitars since '73 (electric since '74). Rog only introduced timpani on stage (IIRC) in late '77, but had recorded with them probably since '73 as well. Fred only played piano on stage since '74 but had done in the studio since '72. Brian only played piano on stage since '79 but had done so in the studio since at least '72. So, if a record has timbales, it doesn't AT ALL guarantee it categorically, undebatably and 'case-closed-ly' comes from the NOTW era. He could've had a set of timbales since '73, for instance, and only add them to the live kit during 'News' tour, simple as that. It's not a distant possibility as it wouldn't be the first of the last time something like that happened. There are several details that can be analysed in order to guesstimate a date, but drums/percussion aren't one of them in this case: for the first album sessions, as they recorded downtime, Rog was often stuck with in-studio equipment (including a Ludwig kit and a Hayman one), sometimes he'd use his own kit, and from '73 onwards he also bought several things that he'd only use in the studio, or only at home, etc. The hi-hat detail is much more precise, as an in-depth study of Roger's style (of which none exists on-line at the moment) could establish a realiable and/or accurate approximation based on that. But as far as kits are concerned and the presence or absence of timbales, they're far from being defining evidence, let alone leaving it as a 'case closed, undebatable, next topic.' For live situations, Roger's only been documented using timbales during the NOTW era. But for studio things, there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to suggest he ONLY used them in '77. Nothing at all. No quote from Rog saying 'I never used them before or since.' No detailed pix from I to Races or from Jazz onwards showing ALL of Rog's items. Nothing to confirm or deny it. Live things can be documented more easily (and you've done a wonderful job with it) but as far as studio set-up is concerned, what we know is close to 1% (at best). Conclusion: while a live recording having timbales could 99% surely be from the NOTW era, a studio recording with timbales could come from any moment between De Lane Lea demos and ... the present, more or less. While a live recording featuring acoustic guitar almost definitely comes from 1976 onwards, a studio recording with acoustic may come from any era. While a live recording featuring Fred playing Tele almost surely comes from the '84-'86 period, a studio outtake with him on a Tele may come from any moment from DLL up to the last ML/AWT sessions in October 1991. And so on. |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 18:02 |
Sir GH wrote: Sebastian wrote: "And BTW, there's nothing to categorically state that Rog used timbales ONLY on the NOTW album. Again, unless he had some sort of condition in which he'd implode otherwise, he could've used timbales at any point since he was aged 2 until the day he dies or loses control of his hand. The fact there are no pix of Rog using timbales during SHA sessions (for instance) doesn't prove he didn't use them then." Yes, technically you're right. But with this kind of stance, we might as well scrap the entire concept of investigative history and conclude that we can't reach reasonable conclusions about any past event without pictorial evidence. ================================ Which is kind of what I've been saying recently. We either take on faith that the likelyhood is that it was recorded in 1971 or 1972 (which is what was believed until recently), or we agree that until further evidence of the origin of the recording comes to light, either by the person who leaked it or by an official statement from someone in the Queen camp, we can not possibly say with 100% certainty what the date is on this track. Both sides have clearly made their arguments. Individuals each put greater weight on different points in these arguments and as a result, we're going in circles. For some, the key is the drum sound. For others, it's Freddie's voice and the age of the song (if not the recording itself). I'd like for someone to examine the history of what we know about this song. I'll offer my perspective first... I first heard about on the old Trainspotter's site, which I just cut and pasted below. This is an entry more than 10 years old, predating many or ANY fans actually hearing the song. The demo we're arguing over had not been leaked (or if it had, only a select few had a copy and the Trainspotter clearly had not heard it, so he covers what was then rumor and speculation. He was correct on some points and incorrect on others): *** Silver Salmon Unreleased (Possibly) There are many rumours about whether this song exists or not, or even if it ever existed. Supposedly written at the same time as "Mad The Swine", or possibly even earlier, no copies of it have ever surfaced. One rumour says it was a John Deacon song that the rest of the band didn't like, and so it was rejected. This seems unlikely as it is also strongly rumoured to be a bit religious, and Freddie tends to write those. It has even been claimed that this is part of a religious trilogy of songs ("Jesus", "Mad The Swine" and this). Sounds like someone's been sniffing too much vinyl to me. The official line is that it doesn't exist, so it probably does. *** For a long time, this was all I knew of the song. Then I picked up a copy of the bootleg CD-R "Queen - Gone Fishing..." which has an assortment of fan-taped tracks from Queen conventions. On it lists: *** Silver Salmon (Short Version) Silver Salmon (Long Version) "Early '70s demo, probably written by Freddie. There are two different versions, like Seven Seas Of Rhye." *** The only accurate information listed here is that the so-called Long Version IS "Silver Salmon." The Short Version is "Feelings," though I didn't know the name at the time. I DID still assume it (SS) was a Freddie song, as that's what everyone seemed to be saying. A while later, I came across a better, non-fan-made copy of Silver Salmon, seemingly from a more original, clear, source and that's the demo we're all now arguing over. This clean copy started with the last note of "Feelings," leading me to believe they came from the same source. Even there, though, I didn't know who had leaked this clean copy, but I assumed it came from the CD/Tape played at the Queen Con where the "Gone Fishing..." guy made his fan-recording. What did not know, and what is still a question for me, is whether that CD played at the Queen Con was a mix of songs from different sessions of different eras or if both "Feelings" and "Silver Salmon" were recorded on the same tape *by the band* in 1971, 1972 or 1977. I learned about this time of Adam Unger's Queen Vault site, which lists the song thusly: *** Silver Salmon (Demo) 3:09 Written by Tim Staffel Appears on: Unreleased, Recorded 1970/71? This track is the most well-known and talked about Queen demo. Rumored to exist for years, but was often said not to exist by Queen Productions. A copy was finally leaked into the bootleg and internet trader market. Track starts with Freddie talking in the studio. A great heavy metal track with great heavy guitar work by Brian and brilliant drumming by Roger. One of the best unreleased demos by far. *** Also around this time, it began to be published online that Silver Salmon was NOT a Freddie track, but a Tim Staffell, Smile-era track. This seemed to be supported by everyone, but I can not now locate any official statement to that effect. If there was an official statement by someone with authority, it's been lost on the internet. It might well have come from Tim Staffell's own website, but that could be my memory playing tricks on me (his site is now under renovation, so there's no way to check...I looked). Then, a few weeks ago I became aware of the arguments that this recording of SS was made in 1977. And that brings us to the here and now. I'm curious how other fans grew to learn about this song. |
| Sebastian 30.06.2010 18:11 |
AFAIK, Brian was once interviewed for Jazz web (IIRC) and he was asked about Silver Salmon. He answered something along the lines of 'I think that's a song of Tim's, I don't think Freddie ever sang that.' Once again, Brian's not precisely Dr Memory, so if he was wrong about a Fred-sung version not existing, maybe he was also wrong about it being a Tim song (which is the most powerful argument in favour of it being from the first album sessions). IIRC, Barry Mitchell didn't recall ever playing it. So, without bringing in the timbales (which, again, prove nothing for this particular situation), we've got many different possibilities, some of which are: - The song is Tim's and was incorporated into Queen's live and/or studio set after Barry (i.e. during Doug or John), then tried out for the first album. - The song is Tim's and was for some reason kept until much later (which may or may not be NOTW as the timbales point proves nothing in this particular case). - The song's not Tim's, Brian's memory failed (again) and it was tried out for the first album. - The song's not Tim's, Brian's memory failed (again) and it wasfor some reason kept until much later (which may or may not be NOTW as the timbales point proves nothing in this particular case). There are other variables to keep in mind: is it a home demo, or done in the studio? At which point was it varisped? Was it a matter of the source, or did a collector do it, or was it manipulated in the studio, etc.? |
| last-horizon 42265 30.06.2010 18:52 |
Actually I am almost sure that when Brian was interviewed by the Jazz Web (probably by Sam P), and was asked about Silver Salmon, he didn't even respond with words, he instead gave a "what are you talking about?" face. He didn't even remember about the song at all. This interview dates back to 1997/1998 so I insist in that I am not pretty sure if he was asked about SS, Hangman or Face It Alone. The latter is less probable since it was very recent by then. I think that the question and the response I have described was about SS, indeed. In those days, SS was a myth among fans. There was not even a clue about existing recordings of it. The first recordings appeared a few years later. |
| Robbieboy 30.06.2010 19:32 |
Great topic Gregsynth, it's been really interesting and informative to read peoples' views as to the origin of Silver Salmon. There are plenty of people contributing in this thread who know far more about Queen than I do, both in terms of Queen's recording history and the actual musical 'nuts and bolts' e.g Roger's drum sound etc. However it really surprises me the number of people who firmly believe this track is from the NOTW sessions. For me, in terms of its musical and lyrical style SS is much, much more similar to some of the stuff on the first album than NOTW (although I will concede that 'Feelings', or 'Feelings Feelings' whatever people prefer to call it sounds like something that could have been on NOTW, with a 'pared back' feel similar to Sleeping On The Sidewalk). |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 20:23 |
Robbie, always a pleasure to see new faces contributing here. To clarify, "Feelings" and "Feeling Feelings" are two seperate tracks and two individual songs, related only by a similar title. |
| Gregsynth 30.06.2010 20:40 |
Well, what we should do is to organize everybody into two camps: "The Early 1970s camp" and the "Late 70s camp." Then we should have an organized debate (we are just randomly throwing speculations out). |
| Planetgurl 30.06.2010 20:50 |
Maybe the song WAS written in 1971 or thereabouts but that production and the power of Fred's voice (slowed down version) I believe is c.1977. The drum sound and the way Rog is playing, all point to that era too...The early quality of Fred's voice is very different, c.1972/73 than to 5 years later, where his voice has a lot more strength and power to it. The tape has sped up in the transfer process for some reason. I've had to use varispeed in the past in film production, so I don't believe they would have applied it intentionally to the track. |
| Robbieboy 30.06.2010 21:25 |
rhyeking wrote: Robbie, always a pleasure to see new faces contributing here. To clarify, "Feelings" and "Feeling Feelings" are two seperate tracks and two individual songs, related only by a similar title. Thanks, rhyeking. I was a bit vague there: the 'Feelings' track I referred to there was the short, rockin' thing (about 3 mins) that to me sounds like an outtake from NOTW. |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 21:41 |
Hmm, You may actually be referring to "Feeling Feelings," which is pretty much undisputed as being from the NOTW Sessions. That one starts out with: "Gotta get rid of this feeling, feeling down..." Most of the lyrics from "Feelings" (the other track) are unintelligible (on my copy, anyway). Both are about 2 minutes long. |
| Robbieboy 01.07.2010 04:47 |
Yes, Rhyeking- it's the former not the latter I was referring to. |
| jamster1111 01.07.2010 09:55 |
Alright. I am going to have to disagree with many people. I really think this is from no later than 1974. Freddie still has the very high voice that we hear on Queen I and a bit on Queen II. Unless, it plays too fast or is pitched up, than it must be from 1971-74. But then of course, it could always be from 1977 but pitched up. But either or, it is still an amazing song which should have been included on an album. |
| rhyeking 01.07.2010 10:26 |
Re: why it never made it onto an album... Pure speculation, but if it IS a Tim Staffell song, that may well be why it never made it onto an album. I think if it had any chance of inclusion, it would have been on the first album. My reasoning, which is by no means rock solid: - A song penned by Tim Staffell alone would not generate any royalties for the band member's themselves. Why record a song, even a really good song, early in there career (either 1971/1972 or 1977) which wouldn't make them much money? "Doing All Right" was at least co-written by Brian. - Speaking of DAR, that it was included on Queen 1 and "See What A Fool I've Been" was NOT included on Queen II may point to the fact that a) Brian was worried about royalities (not knowing then who wrote the original song), and/or b) the band wanted distance themselves, album-wise, from their Smile roots. They still played it live, but usually as an encore number. - Sheer Heart Attack is the last album the band recorded with vestiges of their pre-Queen days still present. "Brighton Rock" contains the guitar solo whose most earliest known recording appears in Smile's "Blag." And "Stone Cold Crazy," we know, had evolved from a Wreckage-era track (no one's certain which one, and theories abound about what it sounded like [slower?]). After that, with A Night At The Opera, the band pretty well stuck to recording material penned AFTER their formation. |
| The Real Wizard 01.07.2010 10:51 |
Great posts guys. NIce to see plenty of us are involved in this investigative work. Let's hope we get some kind of official word some day. |
| icmrocha (The Man From Planet Marzipan) 01.07.2010 14:20 |
This song is definately from 1991, recorded for Made In Heaven but never finished... =) Nah, just kidding.. I have to agree, as a drummer, that the drum sound is very "'77" for me.. To my ears, the drum kit on this song sounds similar to the one on the BBC sessions in 77 (It's late, for example) .. But I would have to listen to the bbc recording once again, since it's been so long I heard this... |
| Gregsynth 01.07.2010 17:19 |
jamster1111 wrote: Alright. I am going to have to disagree with many people. I really think this is from no later than 1974. Freddie still has the very high voice that we hear on Queen I and a bit on Queen II. Unless, it plays too fast or is pitched up, than it must be from 1971-74. But then of course, it could always be from 1977 but pitched up. But either or, it is still an amazing song which should have been included on an album. ==================== It's too fast (around half a semitone too sharp). |
| Holly2003 01.07.2010 17:46 |
It sounds like Paul Rodgers to me. Probably an unused song from The Cosmos Rocks. |
| ludwigs 02.07.2010 12:41 |
'Misfire' features timbales.... :) |
| rhyeking 02.07.2010 12:50 |
If so, then "Misfire" is clearly being played at the wrong pitch. Slow it down, so those timbales disappear, then everything will fit, just ignore that Freddie will sound 40 years old and the guitars are in the wrong key. Just get rid of those timbales! Obviously, I'm joking. |
| Sebastian 02.07.2010 14:08 |
So that's the categorical evidence to PROVE (not to suggest, to PROVE) that Misfire was clearly recorded during NOTW sessions, then they travelled back in time and added it to SHA, as Roger NEVER EVER played timbales before or after NOTW. Undebatable. Case closed. Next topic. |
| Jam Monkey 02.07.2010 14:36 |
Sebastian wrote: So that's the categorical evidence to PROVE (not to suggest, to PROVE) that Misfire was clearly recorded during NOTW sessions, then they travelled back in time and added it to SHA, as Roger NEVER EVER played timbales before or after NOTW. Undebatale. Case closed. Next topic. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Well, a track from SHA ended up on NOTW, so I guess it's possible the reverse it true. |
| Sebastian 02.07.2010 18:36 |
Not to mention that the possibility of Rog playing timbales before or after NOTW is as remote that a time travel makes much more sense. |
| rhyeking 02.07.2010 18:45 |
Little-known Queen fact: the Rolls Royce Freddie owned around the NOTW era was equiped with a Flux Capacitor, enabling the band to travel through time when it reached 88 miles per hour. |
| Sebastian 03.07.2010 01:35 |
But if it reached 89 mph the car owner got AIDS. So there you have it: another mystery solved. |
| Dane 04.07.2010 07:25 |
But they would need to generate 1.21Gigawatts of electricity to fuel the flux capacitor. Which can only come from a Treble Booster which was only created by Pete Cornish in 1981 proving absolutely NOTHING! |
| Benn Kempster 04.07.2010 07:35 |
Just gone through a process of "speed-correcting" the version of "Silver Salmon" with the studio banter and spliced that together with the version of "Feelings" also "speed-corrected". At no point can you find the "correct" pitch to prove that the version commonly doing the rounds has been sped up in order to dupe people in to thinking that what's commonly available is a 1977 session that has been quickened up over time. Freddie's voice in 1977, when taking all known NOTW material and the "Feelings Feelings" out-take as a whole in comparison to "Silver Salmon" and Feelings" at ANY lower pitch is completeky different; it's more ravaged and "throaty" than it's posissible to make either "Silver Salmon" or "Feelings". When listeining to Queen or Queen II material alongside "Polar Bear", "Silver Salmon", "Feelings" and "Mad The Swine" as well as the best available board recording of Golder's Green, it's blatantly obvious that "Silver Salmon" and "Feelings" show Freddie at this point in the development of his voice. I'd urge other's to try the same process. |
| Sebastian 04.07.2010 08:43 |
But what about the timbales? Don't you know that the universe would implode if Rog ever used them before or after NOTW? |
| Kamenliter 04.07.2010 19:21 |
I'm one that's still in the early 70's camp for 'Silver Salmon.' 'Feelings, Feelings,' though, does sound like it could be a NOTW track, and the two tracks do sound like they were recorded at the same time...so that's confusing. In terms of the fantasy aspect, though, and the sound of Brian's guitar jamming with Roger, it sounds like an early track to me. I first heard about the track on Halloween, 1992, when Brian was giving the keynote address at the CMJ (College Music Journalists) convention in NYC. Escorting him that day was one of the women in charge of handling Queen's affairs for Hollywood Records (blond lady - can't recall her name) and I got to speak with her briefly. I asked about unreleased tracks and she said there was 'an early track called 'Silver Salmon.' She didn't say the year or from what album, but the feeling I got was that she meant it was from a song early in their career. She also said there were tapes of them jamming on Beatles songs, as well as 'X-rated stuff that will probably never see the light of day.' Hopefully we'll at least get a definitive answer in the not too distant future about 'Silver Salmon.' |
| Vali 05.07.2010 04:26 |
Kamenliter wrote: She also said there were tapes of them jamming on Beatles songs ================ If true, a clear example of unimaginable stuff we could discover in the "Anthologies", if ever released in a not too distant century. btw, regarding the Silver Salmon discussion ... maybe someone has said something similar but anyway: why on earth it is always a "Mission: impossible" to get simple official INFORMATION about such stuff? We're not asking for that much !! why can't someone like GT come here and tell us: "guys, Silver Salmon was recorded in 1971, end of discussion". Is it that difficult ? could this affect potential future sales? Of course I rely on GT, as I'm sure he won't be addressing to us with childish and disrespectful posts. |
| Benn 05.07.2010 11:52 |
>>Escorting him that day was one of the women in charge of handling Queen's affairs for Hollywood Records (blond lady - can't recall her name) and I got to speak with her briefly. I asked about unreleased tracks and she said there was 'an early track called 'Silver Salmon.' That's good enough for me son and would fall in line with the emergence of "Mad The Swine" as well as the fact that it just sounds like early Freddie. As for the timbales, given that Roger had no "established" kit of his own at that point - after all, sessions for Queen were on borrowed time, and they were hardly playing their socks off on stage, whose to say that he didn't just sit down at whatever kit had been set up at the time in order to save time and to just get something down on tape? Brian and John could plug in to anything they liked and Freddie just needed a mic........... The fact is that this information and much more besides exists and is readily available to GB and GT, but it's stuff like this that purports the myth and whets the appetities of people not simply interested in the GH stuff and singles collections. Does anyone REALLY believe that GB BELIEVED that there had never been a studio take of "Hangman"? Isn't it better to curry favour with certain circles in order to generate witty exchanges and banter with the masses than come up with a straight answer? Whilst they're not prepared to issue the material to us, the history will stay shrouded in mystery in order to keep the interest levels up whilst the band as a going concern dies slowly in the water. |
| Sebastian 05.07.2010 13:52 |
Who's GT? |
| Benn Kempster 06.07.2010 03:10 |
Gary Taylor |
| Sebastian 06.07.2010 08:46 |
Cheers. Now, who the hell is Gary Taylor? |
| Benn 06.07.2010 10:39 |
Long-time fan and collector from the UK. A good guy with a great recollection of facts. |
| Dave2843 09.07.2010 14:48 |
Hi All I'm enjoying this thread so much I thought I would add my own thoughts for what they are worth ! At the beginning of the recording Freddie clearly says "try and put a bit of Silver Salmon.... I know he doesn't know it. best if I just play on........just for Dea.....just the rhythm see if"? Maybe this was when John was fairly new in the band and he did not know the song that well. Cheers Dave |
| Kamenliter 09.07.2010 20:32 |
Thanks for transcribing that , Dave. Listening again, with headphones, I believe Freddie says 'But he just might play on', after 'I know he doesn't know it', instead of 'best if I just play on.' Good catch on the 'just for Dea..' Sounds like there's a couple of cuts there, as well, before it launches into the song proper. |
| Gregsynth 13.09.2010 22:08 |
If anyone is interested, I'm uploading the "definitive" version of this song (on Youtube). |
| Gregsynth 13.09.2010 22:54 |
Here's it is! Hope you like the descriptions! |
| Benn 14.09.2010 10:26 |
Good stuff, but, there are versions out there with *MUCH LESS* digital noise. |
| Gregsynth 14.09.2010 10:55 |
Just when I thought I found the "best" version, there's better versions! lol Note: I hear like 2 seconds of The Seven Seas Of Rhye at the end of that video! |
| therhyeman 03.11.2010 07:22 |
The question no one seems to have asked is why on earth they would bother recording a Tim Staffell song as late as 1977? Anyone considered the theory that they might have originally recorded the song in 1971-73, and then Roger decided to redo his drums in 1977? Therefore the recording could come from BOTH eras. Heaven knows why they would want to, but perhaps they were looking for potential NOTW B-sides? Tim |
| Sebastian 03.11.2010 08:28 |
Let's summarise it yet again: - The only evidence suggesting the song is Tim's is a comment from Brian, who's not precisely Dr Memory (remember when he said he'd never played a V on stage, they never played It's Late on stage, My Fairy King was on Queen II, Master-Stroke was done at Wessex, Maurice Gibb was the only Bee Gee who played instruments, Fred didn't use Steinway pianos, Love of My Life was on Races and Bo Rhap had been done on 16-track?) - The timbales prove absolutelty nothing, as Roger used them LIVE on the NOTW era but in the studio could've used them as early as Smile sessions in 1970 and as late as ... well, now. |
| Gregsynth 17.07.2011 00:29 |
I currently have Mr. Gary Taylor sitting right next to me in Atlanta Georgia (Breakthru 2011), and he says that Silver Salmon was recorded during 1971. I guess that ends the mystery? But he could be lying (GT)!! :) |
| Rick 17.07.2011 03:46 |
1971? No way! Everything points to the NOTW sessions. Drum sound, guitar sound, Fred's voice. Everything. They probably revised some older tracks, like Feelings Feelings during that period. There might be a 1971 version in the vaults, but this particular version stems from 1977. I'm absolutely sure about that. |
| Planetgurl 17.07.2011 05:14 |
Rick wrote: 1971? No way! Everything points to the NOTW sessions. Drum sound, guitar sound, Fred's voice. Everything. They probably revised some older tracks, like Feelings Feelings during that period. There might be a 1971 version in the vaults, but this particular version stems from 1977. I'm absolutely sure about that. I think that this is a logical answer to this - just the production alone is light years away from that of the very early '70's... |
| Dane 17.07.2011 08:34 |
I have just tuned my guitar and tried playing along with the song. It makes me believe the song is set in E. Which on the original version is half a tone too low. Since the band will never play without tuning first (to a phisically determined tone in which an A is 440Hz I believe) it is highly likely the 'corrected pitch' version is the correct one, playing a bit slower. I do admit it sounds a bit odd, but unless they pulled a '39 on this song it should be played at a slower speed. PS: a '39 means slowing the backingtrack a semitone and overdubbing the vocals later. |
| Wilki Amieva 17.07.2011 12:00 |
Sebastian wrote: - The only evidence suggesting the song is Tim's is a comment from Brian, who's not precisely Dr Memory (remember when he said he'd never played a V on stage, they never played It's Late on stage, My Fairy King was on Queen II, Master-Stroke was done at Wessex, Maurice Gibb was the only Bee Gee who played instruments, Fred didn't use Steinway pianos, Love of My Life was on Races and Bo Rhap had been done on 16-track?) Actually, the song is registered at Timothy John Staffell's name in the BMI books. And I think there's some story about Tim hearing the version we know and recognizing the track as his own composition. |
| Sebastian 17.07.2011 12:08 |
Have you got a link or a scan from a printed source to support it? |
| The Real Wizard 17.07.2011 17:30 |
Rick wrote: 1971? No way! Everything points to the NOTW sessions. Drum sound, guitar sound, Fred's voice. Everything. They probably revised some older tracks, like Feelings Feelings during that period. There might be a 1971 version in the vaults, but this particular version stems from 1977. I'm absolutely sure about that. ================ Yep, agreed. We've debated this for years, but overwhelming musical and aural evidence points this track to 1977. Roger uses the same drum kit, and it clearly came from the same tape as Feelings take 9 - the sound quality is identical. |
| Bohardy 18.07.2011 02:26 |
Seb, there's this: link |
| Sebastian 18.07.2011 06:43 |
Cheers! Now, *that* is serious evidence, as opposed to internet rumours. |
| The Nosuch Disco 18.07.2011 06:46 |
I think you'll clearly agree that its from the Cosmos Rocks sessions! It would be nice to know when it came from, but only those in the know can say for sure :) |
| Wilki Amieva 18.07.2011 07:54 |
Sebastian wrote: Cheers! Now, *that* is serious evidence, as opposed to internet rumours. :-) |
| Gregsynth 22.07.2011 21:04 |
Do you guys think that there's more than one recording of Silver Salmon? The reason why I say that is because the version that's all over Youtube (like on DaveRFuller's channel, my channel, etc), sounds like it could be from the NOTW-era, but Gary Taylor insists that Silver Salmon was recorded in 1971. We all know that the song was written in 1971, but do you think that there's a possibly of a 1971 recording, plus the version that's all over Youtube (the NOTW-sounding one)? I told Gary that the copy that's on my channel was speed-corrected (because all the other versions I'm aware of play too fast or slow), had excellent quality, had a speech in the beginning, and had the opening piano riff for the Queen I version of the "Seven Seas Of Rhye" on it (I have no idea what that's about). He appeared to take great interest, and said that he'd take a look at it, and send me his notes. |
| Wilki Amieva 22.07.2011 22:00 |
There are several recordings of Silver Salmon in the archives, found in 1990, but just one has surfaced on the internet. |
| The Real Wizard 22.07.2011 22:01 |
Until someone plays the master recording with a date written on it, all evidence points to 1977 for the version of this track we've heard. But I'm interested to see what GT comes up with. |
| GreatKingSam 23.07.2011 08:45 |
I haven't posted here for AGES... ...but these drums allude to NOTW sessions. Stylistically they sound so similar to the Spread Your Wings BBC drums, that's a good marker. Also, they just blatantly sound like Rog's NOTW kit. |
| Ozz 23.07.2011 10:28 |
Now i wonder what Queen/Bowie song is this: link Great link to research for unreleased songs, thanks |
| rhyeking 23.07.2011 22:10 |
My understanding is that "Silver Salmon" was penned by Tim Staffell and dated from the Smile era, 1968 to 1970. How can it be from 1971? Unless you meant it was recorded by Queen in 1971, which is likely correct (though whether the recording in question is from 1971 is a debate I left long ago. I'm still not convinced it's from 1977, but if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it). |
| Bohardy 24.07.2011 08:58 |
Ozz, it's just a song, by some rapper called Andrell D Rodgers, that samples Under Pressure, and thus is credited to the rapper and Queen/Bowie. You'll find quite a few songs like that on the BMI database, where members of Queen are credited as a result of somebody else sampling one of their songs. |
| Dane 24.07.2011 12:36 |
This one's a bit odd, it just credits Brian and Freddie. link sorry for off-topic |
| dysan 30.07.2011 09:25 |
Don't know if it's mentioned in this thread - but the NOTW reissue mentions that there is a 71 recording of Feelings Feelings take where Freddie says John doesn't know it. Shurely shome mishtake moneypenny? If so, assuming someone got their wires crossed, that means the recording of SS IS from 70 / 71. Whilst I'm at it, the sleevenotes are very poorly written. |
| Adam Unger (QueenVault.com) 09.07.2017 22:20 |