| QueeninCornwall 06.06.2010 10:06 |
I am researching Queens early concerts, many of which were in Cornwall, UK where I live. This is the blog that details some of the research. It includes details of interviews with members of the Reaction. I have found an advert from the local paper dated 16th April 1970 announcing Smiles demise. I dont think there are any other copies of it on the web so I thought Id share it with you. |
| QueeninCornwall 06.06.2010 10:08 |
Cant see how to edit posts so added link here link Would be grateful for feedback on the advert that also mentions Sour Milk Sea. Does this fit with your understanding of the early history of Queen?? |
| Holly2003 06.06.2010 10:09 |
Outstanding detective work and great first post. Thank you. This, according to Queenpedia, suggests Sour Milk Sea didn't play because Fred had just left to join the newly-formed Queen. "The only other gig featuring Freddie which the other members of Sour Milk Sea are certain about was a benefit for the homeless charity ‘Shelter’, staged at the Highfield Parish hall in Headington, Oxford, on 20th March 1970 – just weeks before Freddie teamed up with Brian May and Roger Taylor in a new group. 'That was probably the last gig we played with him,' remarks Chris Chesney." |
| The Real Wizard 06.06.2010 10:21 |
Wow.. who are you and where did you come from, good sir? Excellent stuff. |
| QueeninCornwall 06.06.2010 10:26 |
Hi y'all I'm a Queen fan who has the good fortune to live in the fair City of Truro, Cornwall...I ve been visiting some of the locations of the gigs that they played down here and meeting some of the musicians and promoters who knew Roger when he lived down here... |
| pittrek 06.06.2010 10:49 |
Lovely, thanks ! |
| on my way up 06.06.2010 10:57 |
Wow, wonderful find! Thanks:-) |
| QueeninCornwall 06.06.2010 11:09 |
I've got quite a few interesting bits and pieces that i will be putting on the blog over the next few weeks. This picture, for instance, is of the walled garden at Tregye (as it looks now) where Queen played on the same bill as Arthur Brown and Hawkwind... |
| Crazy LittleThing 06.06.2010 11:14 |
Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing. Welcome to QZ! |
| thunderbolt 31742 06.06.2010 12:20 |
Now that's a first post! Wonderful stuff! So it appears that, based on that ad, we could speculate that Freddie had left Sour Milk Sea already. Now, the question this ad poses is which incarnation of Smile does it refer to? "Breaking up" suggests that Freddie hadn't joined yet, or at the very least it wasn't considered a permanent arrangement. The most likely theory is pretty close to the above statement. Tim Staffell was still a member of Smile at the time of this concert, but he had told Brian and Roger that he was leaving the band after a few more shows. Brian and Roger hadn't yet decided to continue on with Freddie as the lead singer, so, at the time, the plan was for the band to go their separate ways. This was to be their final show in Cornwall as they rounded out a few last gigs. Now, there's a more fun theory here. What if Tim Staffell had left the band already and Freddie had joined? Not as a permanent member, but as a "fill-in" vocalist to help them finish out the dates they had already contracted for following Staffell's departure while they all decided what the future held? If this is the case, wouldn't it effectively re-write what we know about the June 27 show being Queen's "first"? I guess the better question here is how much do we know about Smile's May 9, 1970 gig in London? Do we know who the lineup that day consisted of? That's a key piece of any puzzle that exists here. |
| QueeninCornwall 06.06.2010 12:41 |
Exactly what I thought when I saw it... I think it more likely that Sour Milk Sea were going to play - but when they split up Smile took the gig instead.... But you may be interested to know that I'm meeting the ex-manager of PJs tomorrow so I will ask him and let you know why the ad reads as it does... |
| earwig 06.06.2010 12:50 |
I'm guessing you've already read the book 'Queen - The Early Years' (I think it's called that!). It mentions lots of Cornwall type stuff. Hope it's some help. |
| QueeninCornwall 06.06.2010 13:53 |
I have and its pretty good on most stuff but it doesnt mention these PJs gigs which are very close to the moment when Queen formed properly... |
| GratefulFan 06.06.2010 13:59 |
Great stuff! |
| Josh Henson 06.06.2010 17:37 |
Very cool. |
| Dusta 06.06.2010 18:36 |
Really good stuff! One of the reasons I joined Queenzone was for posts like this! Thanks for taking the time to share. |
| thunderbolt 31742 07.06.2010 01:09 |
I'm still very excited about this find. I honestly believe this could re-write the history of Queen that we all know, and I strongly believe this--not Truro--could be the first Queen show. So many pieces fall into place, but here's another key piece of evidence (circumstantial though it is) that I failed to notice both for my first reply here and the e-mail I just sent to another member of this forum discussing the implications of this gig: Smile was a replacement band here. Sour Milk Sea was contracted to play but broke up beforehand. The fact that Tim Staffell's band stepped in to cover for Freddie Mercury's ex-band is NOT a coincidence, period. I'm sure Tim, Brian and Roger were approached (probably by Freddie himself) and told about the circumstances of this show needing a replacement band to help Freddie out of the bind he'd have likely found himself in if no band showed up at all. Being that Tim Staffell already had other priorities at this point (i.e., Humpy Bong), it's entirely possible that Brian and Roger were very keen on the idea of taking the gig, but Tim was unavailable. Reading the ad, one almost gets the feeling that Smile playing this show was a last-second arrangement to begin with, and Tim may well have had other plans. In that instance, who would they logically ask to step in and sing other than Freddie, who was certainly familiar with their music and had planned on being there that night anyway? Initially, I thought that the May 9, 1970 Smile show would be key to this one. If Tim Staffell was singing there, Freddie almost certainly would not have been the lead singer here--why would Tim quit the band then come back for one show when he's already recording with Humpy Bong? Now, I'm not so sure that a Freddie-led May 9 show is necessary. The advert for the May 9th show looks like a bill that was set a long time in advance, and is not covered by a disclaimer that any replacement bands are playing. Maybe Tim was perfectly happy to finish out the already-contracted Smile shows, but was unavailable to take this one on at the last second. In that situation, having Tim back on lead vocals for the May 9 Smile show would not in any way rule out the possibility that Freddie was on lead vocals for this show. The more I think about it, the more apparent it seems to me that there's a very strong chance that this, and not the June show in Truro, was the first "Queen" concert. Sure, Truro was the first one after Freddie, Brian and Roger decided to rename the band and tour together, but based on the implications of the "replacement band" line in this advert, I'm slowly becoming more and more suspicious that April 17, 1970, was the first time Freddie Bulsara performed a show as the lead vocalist of a band that had Brian May on guitar and Roger Taylor on drums. To the Queen fan who found this ad and posted it here (I'd address you by name, but "QueeninCornwall" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue), THANK YOU for getting the wheels of my mind spinning, and getting me more excited about Queen than I've been in quite some time. The possibility that Freddie fronted Smile *before* the June Truro show has me absolutely giddy. I'd like to ask, though, if you've been able to look a few days ahead in the microfilms and see if there are pictures or a review of the show--anything which could answer definitively the now very-real question at hand: Who was the lead singer of Smile on April 17th and 18th, 1970? |
| QueeninCornwall 07.06.2010 02:05 |
Youre right ....its an important as a historical document and its interesting to think what the implications are. I ve sent a copy to Jacky Gunn to see what she makes of it. I found it late on Saturday when the library was about to close but I should be able to take another look soon. Meanwhile here is a scan of the whole page so you can see it in amongst the other adverts. Its easily missed. In fact I would have missed it, but printed this page because of the other PJs advert (which is for the same gig). One consideration is that the journey to Cornwall in the sixties particularly was not easy and you can imagine that Tim in London may have opted out of singing in this gig for that reason alone. |
| Bo Rhap 07.06.2010 16:17 |
QueeninCornwall. Thanks for all of this info. As you can see you really have opened up a lot of Queen fans imagination.Including mine.I'm kinda wondering what the line-up for those two gigs were too. Cheers mate. |
| QueeninCornwall 07.06.2010 17:32 |
OK I'll admit it but this is a shameless attempt to get you to visit my blog Its link In the last couple of days I've uploaded some images taken from inside Rogers boyhood home as it is now, and the original advert for the first Queen gig, June 1970, which I don't think has appeared in reproduction before... please feel free to leave messages etc there... |
| QueeninCornwall 07.06.2010 17:34 |
I should add, Ive made contact with Pete Bawden of PJs he is reflecting on the significance of the Sour Milk Sea reference in the advert...will report back on this! |
| thunderbolt 31742 08.06.2010 00:00 |
WOW! I mean, WOW! We have the closest thing yet to proof that Queen were, for at least the "first" show, billed as Smile. Dude, you are the best thing to happen to the study of Queen's history since a guy named Martin decided to chronicle every known Queen gig on the internet. Thank you so much! |
| QueeninCornwall 17.06.2010 13:50 |
There are lots of people still in Cornwall who remember the Smile gigs and the first Queen gigs. This week I managed to find Mike Grose who was Queens first bassist. He said that after Tim left Smile he played bass in PJs with them. (There is also a record of Rick Thorning playing with Smile too and one wonders if Rick played the remain London gigs). But Freddie most definitely did not sing with Smile at that stage... |
| The Real Wizard 07.07.2010 20:31 |
From the blog: "He [Mike Grose] said it was PJ (Pete Bawden - see earlier post below) who persuaded him to pick up the bass and play with Smile at PJs in Truro after Tim Staffell left the band early in 1970. He said they were playing a lot of covers and blues standards so he didn't really have to rehearse beforehand. Also, significantly, with Tim the lead singer having left, that night he remembers sharing the singing duties with Brian and Roger." Amazing. Tim had left in early 1970, Mike Grose played the PJ's gigs, and there were two more Smile gigs after that, according to queenconcerts.com: 24.04.1970, Eel Pie Island, Twickenham, UK 09.05.1970, Imperial College, London, UK So we have two possibilities - were the gigs canceled, or did Freddie join them? |
| The Real Wizard 07.07.2010 21:30 |
A further question .. Does anyone know why Mike Grose left the band? QueeninCornwall, did you meet with Mike? How did it go? |
| thunderbolt 31742 07.07.2010 23:52 |
So we're on to something! Tim Staffell, according to Mike Grose, had left Smile before the shows at PJ's. Freddie Mercury had left Sour Milk Sea, and asked the Staffell-less Smile to fill in for his old band... The circumstantial evidence is mounting. We need a smoking gun, and QueenInCornwall, I think you're on the trail of it. Things just fall into place and make sense now. Ken Testi, among others, have claimed that Queen were billed as "Queen" from Truro onwards. Perhaps they were--maybe Truro was the first "Queen" concert, so to speak, but maybe these gigs at PJ's and the Smile gigs afterwards were when Freddie, Brian and Roger first took the stage together as a band. Maybe, just maybe, Truro was the first show after they'd decided to stick together and make a "new" band from the ashes of the old, but one of these four mystery shows between the first PJ's gig and Truro was when the band that would later be called Queen first took the stage together. |
| The Real Wizard 08.07.2010 00:59 |
Thunderbolt wrote: "Freddie Mercury had left Sour Milk Sea, and asked the Staffell-less Smile to fill in for his old band..." Mmm, does it specifically state that Freddie asked them? "maybe these gigs at PJ's and the Smile gigs afterwards were when Freddie, Brian and Roger first took the stage together as a band." It definitely wasn't the PJ's gigs in April, as Mike Grose says he played those ones as a trio with Brian and Roger sharing vocals. So there are only two mystery shows now... April 24 and May 9. My best guess is the gigs were canceled, because they didn't have a bass player. |
| QueeninCornwall 08.07.2010 02:02 |
I think its possible that Tim was persuaded to play those later gigs even though he had decided to leave the band...Mike Grose said to me that he and Roger had had a minor falling out that weekend in Truro and Tim had gone back to London. |
| The Real Wizard 08.07.2010 03:11 |
Cheers for the reply. Did Mike specify how many gigs he played with Smile? There are the April 17 and 18 shows in question, and it seems he played at least one of them. If he played only the one, was the other one canceled, and perhaps Tim played the final two on April 24 and May 9? |
| QueeninCornwall 08.07.2010 04:10 |
Mike didnt play in London with Smile but played that weekend in Cornwall with them. He cant remember if he played one or both of the booked gigs. Tim may have played one but not stayed for the other. He (Tim) was definitely in Cornwall though that weekend. |
| The Real Wizard 08.07.2010 14:02 |
Thanks for all the great info. Your work is incalculable. |
| matt z 08.07.2010 15:53 |
Historical Stuff!!... what a find! Thank you for sharing that here. That is soo awesome. Its also great to hear all the tidbits involved here... Sour Milk Sea was supposed to have played???.... SOOOOOOOOOOOOOFA KiNG amazing! this is great. thank u. |
| thunderbolt 31742 08.07.2010 23:23 |
So perhaps we don't have Freddie playing with Brian and Roger before Truro, but we have another amazing bit of information in that Mike Grose played bass for Smile, at least for a short while. We have 3/4 of what would become the first incarnation of Queen onstage together much earlier than previously thought. Like Sir GH, I'm curious as to why Mike Grose left the band after only, what, three shows? He was the co-owner of PJ's apparently, did that play into it? Or was there a difference of opinion between Mike and one or more band members at some point? And, again, another huge question that's dogged the Queen community (and since you seem to have a way of getting in touch with Mike Grose, I'll ask it)...when Freddie, Brian, Roger and Mike played at Truro on June 27, 1970, were they playing as "Queen," or as "Smile"? I think that question is as relevant now as it ever was. Sure, they were billed as Smile in the newspaper ad, but when they walked onstage, did they introduce themselves as "Smile," "Queen," or some hybrid of the two (these guys used to be called Smile, but now we're called Queen, etc.)? We know that gigs had been booked using the Smile name previously, and some venues were surprised to find a band named "Queen" setting up their gear after they'd booked a different group. Previously, I had taken it as fact that the guys called themselves Smile, at least for the first show. However, since it appears Smile ended on a sour note with Tim leaving in early 1970, resulting in his either being talked into playing a few last shows or those last shows being scrapped entirely, maybe Brian and Roger wanted to put the Smile name behind them, and even though they still used it to book shows (as Smile was fairly well-known on the club/college circuit back then), they introduced themselves onstage as "Queen" from the very beginning. In such a way, the people who've insisted that the band was billed as Smile at their first show would be correct--but so would Ken Testi, who's insisted that they presented themselves as Queen from the very start! QueenInCornwall (or Rupert, as the case may be?), I can't thank you enough for the detective work you've put into this. It's absolutely amazing to see the earliest chapters of the Queen story being written right now through the work you're doing, almost forty years to the day after the band's first gig. Thank you, thank you so much for your efforts! If they ever put the Queen Archivist position to a public vote, I'll write your name on the ballot. ;) |
| QueeninCornwall 09.07.2010 01:54 |
I think the crucial person here is Freddie. Once it was decided he'd be the new singer it sounds like they'd decided they needed a new name and went with one that Freddie was keen on. The point about the gig at the City Hall in Truro was it was the first one that Freddie sang in as lead singer. It was also at a point when the name had been decided. How they announced themselves is an intriguing question and one of those things that may have been forgotten. The other issue for me is whether Roger would have used the drum skin with Staffells big Smile face on it... |
| QueeninCornwall 09.07.2010 02:16 |
But based on what people down here have told me the band were very clear about their change of name and change of image and had discussed the look of the new band and so on too. So I think Roger, who like Freddie was conscious of the importance of presentation, would have changed the skin on his bass drum and the band would have announced themselves as Queen. But I will try and get some clarification on this... |
| Kacoblin 09.07.2010 03:09 |
I can not thank you enough for this information. I do have a question though {if it's not a burden on you} that's slightly off this topic. Milke Grose played bass with Freddies previous band Wreckage correct? Does he know anymore information on the songs freddie wrote for their band {wreckage}? We know Green exists currently, does he know the names or perhaps the origins of other Wreckage or Ibex songs? I would greatly appreciate it, if it's not too much to ask :] And again thank you for filling in the gaps of Queen history. Gooday to you sir! |
| Fmarton 09.07.2010 03:48 |
It was Mike Bersin who played with Freddie in Wreckage, and not Mike Grose. You are confusing them. BTW, QueeninCornwall, your blog and your work is amazing. |
| e-man 09.07.2010 06:40 |
this is superb stuff!! but I can't seem to access your blog? |
| Kacoblin 09.07.2010 07:22 |
My mistake, sorry for that minor error. Then who am I thinking of who taped the Liverpool show in 1969? I apologize i'm abit rusty with my Queen knowledge. Lately i've been dusting the cobwebs off my cranium, just don't have the time these days to store all this information on my favorite band as much anymore. |
| Fmarton 09.07.2010 07:56 |
It was Geoff Higgins. |
| Donna13 09.07.2010 15:17 |
I remember reading that Roger's mother used to book gigs for them early on. Is she still living? Hope so. |
| QueeninCornwall 09.07.2010 16:20 |
yes is the answer to both those queries! |
| thunderbolt 31742 09.07.2010 21:41 |
So here's what I'm taking away from all this: There is no clear delineation between Smile and Queen, as we'd previously thought. Queen is not a band that rose from the ashes of Smile; it's an evolution of Smile. We can see the pieces fall into place from Tim Staffell's departure earlier than thought to Mike Grose playing with them at PJ's. Maybe, perhaps Freddie sang lead vocals with them at a show or two in April/May. We also know that Queen played shows that had originally been booked as Smile shows--in effect, Queen took over the final shows for Smile. Knowing what we either know or can easily surmise based on this new information, there was no hard, fast moment in time where Smile ended and Queen began. Pending the outcome of what Mike Grose remembers about the first show, I'd say it's now very likely that they were booked as Smile, they were advertised as Smile, and when they took the stage, Freddie introduced them as Queen. Even at their first Queen show, they still existed in a kind a limbo--they may have even still had the Smile face on the bass drum! We may not have something as spectacular as proof that Freddie sang lead vocals at a Smile show before the June 27th Truro show, but we do have a new picture of the earliest days of the band. I personally have a completely new understanding of how Queen came to be. We have a much more detailed catalog of Smile shows, and we even have a couple of new early Queen shows at PJ's to add to the mix. Again, QueenInCornwall, thank you for your hard work. It's just infinitely cool to watch this play out, and speculate about where it may end up. |
| Kacoblin 10.07.2010 01:47 |
I wonder if when smile transitioned into Queen in the beginning when Freddie sang lead vocals what songs they played? Did they play smile songs or Wreckage songs? Was any new songs written at the time? Does Mike Grose remember what songs that he played with Queen when he was in the band? That's also a very big piece of history that is unknown? |
| thunderbolt 31742 10.07.2010 20:07 |
According to queenlive.ca, the first Queen show consisted of Stone Cold Crazy as the opening number and then a lot of covers. Now, "covers" here is a debatable term, as I'd wager that they played at least a couple of Smile songs. Freddie was very familiar with the band's music, and Brian and Roger certainly knew how to play their own songs. Mike probably remembered just enough to squeak by. That said, when a band adds two new members, they typically don't unleash their entire catalog at the first show. My guess would be that the setlist consisted of Stone Cold Crazy, Doin' All Right, a few blues covers and Jailhouse Rock. Nothing too daring for the first show. But that's pure speculation. Here's hoping Mike Grose can shed some light on this for us. |