| ploughman 04.06.2010 17:20 |
Queen have been known overdubbing their live maerial a few times. At least all the livealbums and videos that were released when Freddie was alive, where corrected a little, as far as live vocal is concerned. Rainbow 74, nearly all are studio vocals. Live Killers overdubbed and many vocals were "flown" from different concerts, since many shows were recorded Wembley 86, Freddie corrected higher screams here and there later in studio (you can check this out from the radio broadcast whish is un-overdubbed) This is usual and at least for the 1986, Freddie needed this, since the voice was not always in a top condition. But the newer releases Live at the Bowl 1982 and Queen Rock Montreal 1981 don't have these overdubs for vocal, I would suggest. There are corrections. In Montreal, two nights were recorded, and Queen had the multitracks, so when they spotted some flaws, while re-mixing it a couple of years ago, they must have made correctons with some copy-pasting. The vocals could have been leveled also with some automatic pitc-correction, which is very easy to do while mixing with ProTools for example. Milton Keynes is nearly untouched, apart from the well-known Fat Bottomed Gilrs -correction. Maybe some pitch-sifter here aswell? Freddie was indeed in a unbelieavable condition for the Montreal Shows if the vocal is purely live as it seems. The whole band was actually. From youtube you can check the live broadcasts from Caracas, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires shows. The band is in a mint condition. So it just seems that they were on the peak of the quality of their live performance. Still, to me the Rock Montreal seems to be just a little bit "too-good" to be true. All the instruments and vocals are very isolated and clear. That's well enough, since thay had the multitracks. But isn't this the case with "Live at the Bowl" aswell? Thay had the multitracks for that show aswell. Still the concert from 1982 doesn't sound so "clinical". The sound is more "live" and there are little hitches on the instruments aswell. With modern sound processing they should have been able to make that concert sound as clear and clinical as the Montreal show. Or that's what iI think. What are your views. Could "Rock Montreal" be purely live (with some odd copy-paste stuff)?? |
| Bad Seed 05.06.2010 09:52 |
I've mentioned before that I believe quite a bit of Montreal is overdubbed. I'm almost certain NIH has almost entirely been re-done by Freddie at some point. I've never heard him sing the song this way before, and anyone with a good ear could tell that the vocal on that song doesn't sound the same as most of the other tracks. |
| Gregsynth 05.06.2010 11:14 |
Bad Seed wrote: I've mentioned before that I believe quite a bit of Montreal is overdubbed. I'm almost certain NIH has almost entirely been re-done by Freddie at some point. I've never heard him sing the song this way before, and anyone with a good ear could tell that the vocal on that song doesn't sound the same as most of the other tracks. ============================ It's NOT overdubbed. I have the audience recording from the first night! Freddie's voice is stunning (he gets ALL the Under Pressure high notes)! |
| Rick 05.06.2010 16:24 |
Montreal was an indoor venue whereas MK was outside. This also gives a clear difference in sound quality. |
| marvinp01 05.06.2010 20:06 |
Roger mentioned that taking the bottom membranes from his drum set help give the drum sound a natural and cleaner quality to it.... could that be it??? |
| Rick 06.06.2010 05:23 |
I hate what they did with the drum sound on the MK release. The original sounds way more natural. |
| cmsdrums 06.06.2010 06:14 |
my understanding has always been that Live Killers has no overdubs and is completely live as performed, BUT the performances are taken from many shows on the tour and not just one or two shows. Therefore each song may be edited together from half a dozen or so shows, but is all live and not overdubbed. Can anyone categorically confirm or deny this? Cheers |
| Hubb 06.06.2010 08:14 |
Live Killers has overdubs. Read this link |
| The Real Wizard 06.06.2010 10:41 |
Right, but the question is... did the overdubs come from other concerts or were they later recorded in the studio? Until we hear every single concert, we'll never know for sure. But it's likely that parts of Don't Stop Me Now and We Are The Champions were done in the studio. |
| Hubb 06.06.2010 10:56 |
Sir GH: "But it's likely that parts of Don't Stop Me Now and We Are The Champions were done in the studio." This is what I wanted to say :D |
| mooghead 06.06.2010 15:43 |
Montreal is crystal clear coz its not Montreal! |
| 92Funny 07.06.2010 15:32 |
Rock Montreal has perfect sound use live magic as an example of how bad a live performance album COULD sound |
| FriedChicken 09.06.2010 10:36 |
They didn't use pitch correction. If you say such a thing you clearly have no idea what an autotune effect sounds like. Listen to Paul McCartney's last live cd/dvd. It's horrible and it's extremely annoying listening to those robotic voices caused by the autotune pitch correction. |
| ploughman 09.06.2010 16:12 |
I really do know, how autotune sounds like, being a sound-engineer myself. This time I'm only meaning the kinf of leveling or slight adjustments with autotune, with a very loose correction. Not to use it as an effect, but just to bring notes a little bit closer to the absolute note. Autotune runs on every record nowadays, even if you wont hear it. Autotune whiich Cher uses is just overdoing it for the hell of it and that's not what I meant. Montreal being in a indoor venue is of course a good explanation. Would that alone make it sound so much different to, lets say Milton Keynes, a concert that was done 6 months later? Well that was outdoors for sure, but the equipment was pretty much the same. Maybe the thing is that the band was just at its prime as a live act in 1981. |
| cmsdrums 10.06.2010 05:36 |
92Funny wrote: Rock Montreal has perfect sound use live magic as an example of how bad a live performance album COULD sound Fair point, but Live Magic still sounds a hell of a lot better than the Live At Wembley 86/Stadium mixes!!!! |
| cmsdrums 10.06.2010 07:26 |
Hubb wrote: Live Killers has overdubs. Read this link Thanks for the link - very interesting. This does sesem to back up my theory thought that there WEREN'T overdubs (ie studio ones), but drop ins from, and merges with, other gigs on the tour as I'd thought. In fact the site confirms this on the thinking behind things like Fat Bottomed Girls not being included because of the vocals usually not being tight - if they were going to overdub in the studio then this would surely be one they would include? Yes there were parts removed by studio 'trickery' (Roger's vox on Spred Your Wings for example), but it doesn't seem to me that there is anything on Live Killers that isn't actually truly live? |
| Yara 11.06.2010 11:55 |
Hey, ploughman. With all due respect, I fail to see what's the puzzle here. Given the fact they had the multitracks, and taking into account that a whole lot of painstaking effort was put into producing Rock Montreal's last release, it shouldn't come as a surprise, to my mind, that the final output sounds so nice, especially with all the sound technology out there nowadays - records which have been very well recorded can be made to sound as clear as the Rock Montreal's gig. That said, I don't think they resorted much, or at all, to overdubbing. No abstruse sound-engineering concepts here, but just some common sense. Just ask yourself some basic questions: a) If the guys really wanted to smooth all the rough edges, as you seem to suggest, why on earth did they leave "Dragon Attack" as it is, with Freddie fumbling the lines and losing the tempo in a pretty annoying way? b) Had they gone out of their minds to make ammendments, why didn't they bother to fix Freddie's take on the first verse of the second part of such a crucial song as "Save Me"? One notices quite easily that he forgot the lines and tried to recover by speaking, instead of singing, them. Had some other Queen concerts been as well recorded and produced as this one, I think we'd have by now even better sounding gigs out there on DVD or Blu-Ray: Overall, I think their performances in South America, as well as the "short-lived" Crazy Tour and a couple of U.S gigs from the Game Tour, not to mention the killer concerts at Wembley on December 1980, are significantly better than the two Montreal gigs. As to overdubbing in general, it may in fact work as a way of doing justice to a great band - we all know that bands tend to get nervous if they are being recorded or, even worse, if there are huge cameras flying around them. Led's "How The West Was Won" has been significantly edited, but does it mean that the legendary quartet couldn't deliver some very good, tight performances, despite the minor flaws? It'd be unfair to Led's legacy and efforts if they released something which didn't do justice to the amazing songs and the outright magnificent band, which was absolutely exciting as a live act. Cheers! |
| GratefulFan 11.06.2010 12:47 |
Yara! So nice to see you! I must know how the Olympics went and if that man liked his soccer ball... And the sound is great on Montreal because....because.....because French Canadians are very absorbent. Hope that helps. |
| rhyeking 11.06.2010 13:10 |
There's no rule saying that a band must NEVER, EVER overdub. A live album is a product like any other and the artist who releases it wants it to be the best it can be. Somehow, though, we've convinced ourselves that any editting or tampering with LIVE recordings is sacrelige, like rewriting history! "No," we cry, "That's not how it was on the night!" It's curious that this view is only strictly held toward live albums and releases. No one cares that an actor's performance in a movie is overdubbed and editted pretty much all the time now. A studio recording used to be more or less live on the take, with what was played in that moment being the final product, free of overdubs and re-recorded bits, until technology allowed for "perfecting" the music. No one complained about that because the music sounded good. Alas, though, we want to see the crappy bits, just to remind ourselves that the band is human and capabale of mistakes, just like us, even if it mean putting out a product below their standards. It always seems to come down to: the Fans are always right, even if it isn't what the band wants. It used to be that the band dictated its output and the fans could take it or leave. The artistic statement belongs to the ARTIST and was not predicated on being accepted by its audience. |
| inu-liger 11.06.2010 20:24 |
I have to disagree with you, mate. A movie is basically the visual equivalent of a 'studio album', considering the work that goes more into making studio albums / films than with a live release. Studio recordings by your reasoning are also 'overdubbed' too. You know what, that's how people perfect studio albums and movies, they use the best material and technology possible to do so! |
| rhyeking 11.06.2010 22:19 |
And they should not have the choice to "perfect" a recording made before an audience? |
| ploughman 13.06.2010 05:45 |
Yara wrote: Hey, ploughman. With all due respect, I fail to see what's the puzzle here. Given the fact they had the multitracks, and taking into account that a whole lot of painstaking effort was put into producing Rock Montreal's last release, it shouldn't come as a surprise, to my mind, that the final output sounds so nice, especially with all the sound technology out there nowadays - records which have been very well recorded can be made to sound as clear as the Rock Montreal's gig. That said, I don't think they resorted much, or at all, to overdubbing. No abstruse sound-engineering concepts here, but just some common sense. Just ask yourself some basic questions: a) If the guys really wanted to smooth all the rough edges, as you seem to suggest, why on earth did they leave "Dragon Attack" as it is, with Freddie fumbling the lines and losing the tempo in a pretty annoying way? b) Had they gone out of their minds to make ammendments, why didn't they bother to fix Freddie's take on the first verse of the second part of such a crucial song as "Save Me"? One notices quite easily that he forgot the lines and tried to recover by speaking, instead of singing, them. Had some other Queen concerts been as well recorded and produced as this one, I think we'd have by now even better sounding gigs out there on DVD or Blu-Ray: Overall, I think their performances in South America, as well as the "short-lived" Crazy Tour and a couple of U.S gigs from the Game Tour, not to mention the killer concerts at Wembley on December 1980, are significantly better than the two Montreal gigs. As to overdubbing in general, it may in fact work as a way of doing justice to a great band - we all know that bands tend to get nervous if they are being recorded or, even worse, if there are huge cameras flying around them. Led's "How The West Was Won" has been significantly edited, but does it mean that the legendary quartet couldn't deliver some very good, tight performances, despite the minor flaws? It'd be unfair to Led's legacy and efforts if they released something which didn't do justice to the amazing songs and the outright magnificent band, which was absolutely exciting as a live act. Cheers! There are overdubs and then there are corrections. The theatre version of Rainbow 1974 is of course full of overdubs. Talking about "Rock Montreal", I'm actually more astounded by the sound. That's what I meant. They re-mixed it a couple of years ago, that's why the isolation of the different instruments is so good. My wonder is, why weren't they able to re-do this kind of sound on "Live at the Bowl"? Thay remixed it also a couple of years ago? Were the conditions so different in Montreal? I think that the overall performance is really good, And the little hic-ups like the ones on Save Me and Dragon attack don't bother me at all. I think they are there, because that's how it was performed that night. I think ather vocals are also live, but what astounded me is that Freddie never missed the pitch of the note with his vocal during that night. That's why I tend to think that a little bit of aoutomatic pitch-correction was used. To do a 2-hour show, whitout ever wandering even a little bit out of tune, is a massive chore for the singer. But as I noted before and as you said, the shows from 1980-81 are really good with Freddie. Very powerful performances indeed. It could be that this is purely untouched. |
| The Real Wizard 13.06.2010 14:22 |
ploughman wrote: "To do a 2-hour show, whitout ever wandering even a little bit out of tune, is a massive chore for the singer. But as I noted before and as you said, the shows from 1980-81 are really good with Freddie. Very powerful performances indeed. It could be that this is purely untouched." I'd say it is. For the most part, Freddie was a force to be reckoned with from 1980-82. |
| on my way up 13.06.2010 14:35 |
Sir GH wrote: ploughman wrote: "To do a 2-hour show, whitout ever wandering even a little bit out of tune, is a massive chore for the singer. But as I noted before and as you said, the shows from 1980-81 are really good with Freddie. Very powerful performances indeed. It could be that this is purely untouched." I'd say it is. For the most part, Freddie was a force to be reckoned with from 1980-82. I agree. It was certainly possible for Freddie to sound as brilliant live as he did in Montreal. Several audience recordings are evidence of that. We often slagg QPL off (and often rightly so) but I really feel Queen rock Montreal was a good release. ( Also, in Freddie's defens(concerning his live vocals): some great periods from him aren't well-covered in terms iof bootlegs. Think about: NOTW '77, Crazy tour, US Game tour (especially the early gigs, really looking forward to those Vancouver songsù...). I adore the Japanese shows of 1979 but I've got to admit that his voice was in weak shape. No discussion possible about that. Imagine we'd have as many Crazy tour recordings.... On a positive note, we have several nice European Game tour and European Hot Space tour recordings. |
| Wes90 09.12.2011 18:03 |
Gregsynth wrote: Bad Seed wrote: I've mentioned before that I believe quite a bit of Montreal is overdubbed. I'm almost certain NIH has almost entirely been re-done by Freddie at some point. I've never heard him sing the song this way before, and anyone with a good ear could tell that the vocal on that song doesn't sound the same as most of the other tracks. ============================ It's NOT overdubbed. I have the audience recording from the first night! Freddie's voice is stunning (he gets ALL the Under Pressure high notes)! The rock part in Bohemian Rhapsody defenately sounds overdubbed, i think studio vocals are pretty easy to spot, it's just a different way of singing, i find it strange nobody noticed it but that part is not live for sure. |
| Wes90 09.12.2011 18:04 |
Gregsynth wrote: Bad Seed wrote: I've mentioned before that I believe quite a bit of Montreal is overdubbed. I'm almost certain NIH has almost entirely been re-done by Freddie at some point. I've never heard him sing the song this way before, and anyone with a good ear could tell that the vocal on that song doesn't sound the same as most of the other tracks. ============================ It's NOT overdubbed. I have the audience recording from the first night! Freddie's voice is stunning (he gets ALL the Under Pressure high notes)! The rock part in Bohemian Rhapsody defenately sounds overdubbed, i think studio vocals are pretty easy to spot, it's just a different way of singing, i find it strange nobody noticed it but that part is not live for sure. |
| April Lady 09.12.2011 18:48 |
Dude, I've been a fan for 36 years...chill a little [img=/images/smiley/msn/wink_smile.gif][/img] |
| space ghost 25.04.2014 17:34 |
Wes90 wrote:If you hear only the two back channels on 5.1 from Rock Montreal DVD you could hear the original vocals on Now I'm Here, Under Pressure (final), Jailhouse Rock, Bohemian Rhapsody (rock section), Tie Your Mother Down, Another One Bites The Dust and Sheer Heart Attack.Gregsynth wrote: Bad Seed wrote: I've mentioned before that I believe quite a bit of Montreal is overdubbed. I'm almost certain NIH has almost entirely been re-done by Freddie at some point. I've never heard him sing the song this way before, and anyone with a good ear could tell that the vocal on that song doesn't sound the same as most of the other tracks. ============================ It's NOT overdubbed. I have the audience recording from the first night! Freddie's voice is stunning (he gets ALL the Under Pressure high notes)!The rock part in Bohemian Rhapsody defenately sounds overdubbed, i think studio vocals are pretty easy to spot, it's just a different way of singing, i find it strange nobody noticed it but that part is not live for sure. -------------- Sorry for my bad english! |
| luthorn 26.04.2014 11:22 |
Irrespective of the answer I find Montreal a snooze. There are a lot better concerts from the period 1980 1982 that I would drool to see a video off. |
| The Real Wizard 27.04.2014 01:05 |
space ghost wrote: If you hear only the two back channels on 5.1 from Rock Montreal DVD you could hear the original vocals on Now I'm Here, Under Pressure (final), Jailhouse Rock, Bohemian Rhapsody (rock section), Tie Your Mother Down, Another One Bites The Dust and Sheer Heart Attack.Interesting ! Could someone do a DVD rip of just those channels of those songs? |
| Chief Mouse 27.04.2014 09:01 |
I extracted the BoRhap rock section from the back channels. Is it just me or it sounds like he cracked on "die" at 0:15? |
| Chief Mouse 27.04.2014 09:03 |
double post |
| space ghost 27.04.2014 12:45 |
link Have some delay on the tracks so i split the two channels of all the songs to be more clear to hear. Starting in BoRhap, they started to mix a little more with the overdubbed vocal parts. So it will be more hard to hear! ------------------ Sorry fot my bad english! Google tradutor here! : ) |
| Sue Dounim 12.12.2014 22:39 |
Am I the only one who thinks QRM's mix is lacking quite a bit in the high end? Every way I've ever listened to it it just sounds kinda flat. |
| tomchristie22 13.12.2014 00:21 |
Do we have audience recordings of only one Montreal 81 concert, or both nights? If both, we can definitively figure out what's live and what isn't on the 2007 release |
| Snackpot 15.12.2014 11:34 |
On that concert the version of AOBTD is strange as the echo of Freddie's vocals appears not only to sound different to what he sings but it also seems to sing each line fractionally before he does. |
| The Real Wizard 16.12.2014 03:07 |
tomchristie22 wrote: Do we have audience recordings of only one Montreal 81 concert, or both nights? If both, we can definitively figure out what's live and what isn't on the 2007 releaseJust the first night.. link |
| tomchristie22 16.12.2014 06:26 |
Ah thanks. I'll check it out at some point. Either way, we can tell just by listening to Rock Montreal where the overdubs have been applied - like Snackpot said, you can faintly hear remnants of the real vocal underneath. |
| Nitroboy 16.12.2014 08:41 |
Snackpot wrote: On that concert the version of AOBTD is strange as the echo of Freddie's vocals appears not only to sound different to what he sings but it also seems to sing each line fractionally before he does. Pretty much the entire first minute of that song has an overdubbed Freddie singing along with Roger and the original live Freddie. |
| BETA215 16.12.2014 12:44 |
If someone could isolate, at least the echo of the original voice, it would be grreeeat. |
| Oscar J 16.12.2014 13:43 |
It was mentioned somewhere that the rear channels in the 5.1 mix have the original vocals on them. Anyone got it? |
| BETA215 16.12.2014 14:03 |
Search in some old comments in this thread. There you will find a .rar file with the rear channels of the 5.1 mix. |
| Oscar J 16.12.2014 15:01 |
Well... why did you ask then? |
| BETA215 16.12.2014 15:10 |
I'm asking for Another One Bites The Dust. As I know, that song don't have the original echo. Not every song of that concert don't have the echo removed. |
| BETA215 16.12.2014 15:14 |
Sorry, it is extracted like the other songs. But it also have that double voice (real Freddie's voice with his studio overdub version). It would be great if someone removed the studio vocal. |
| alberbal12 16.12.2014 15:27 |
Anybody knows if exists any audience recording of 25/11 concert? Thanks |
| Oscar J 16.12.2014 15:40 |
Not that we know of. |
| Viper 18.12.2014 08:56 |
I can't dowload it... The files are missing... |
| Viper 18.12.2014 08:57 |
The Real Wizard wrote:Just the first night..http://www.queenconcerts.com/queenzone/1337418.html I can't download it... The files are missing... |
| Jefffabiano 18.12.2014 13:12 |
Here you have a new download link: link |