| Thistle 04.03.2010 19:09 |
It seems that, when talking about Queen, the first thing that comes to most minds is Bohemian Rhapsody. It is a song which has received many accolades, such as song of the millennium, and has topped various fan-polls, radio comps etc. As we know, it is widely regarded as Queen's finest - their masterpiece, if you will. Now, don't get me wrong, it is a real gem, a work of art, a really great composition - but, for me, March Of The Black Queen is their true masterpiece. General opinion here on QZ seems to be that Queen's best album is Queen II - way above ANATO. As far as I'm concerned, March Of The Black Queen is, by far, the best track from that album and is fast becoming my personal favourite. It is epic to say the least - thunderous yet melodic, sweet yet sinister, teasing but venomous. It is a real rollercoaster ride, very passionate and with a big bite. Obviously, it is Bo-Rhap's predecessor - and, according to our esteemed Dr. May on the making of ANATO DVD, there was a sense that Bo-Rhap was coming when you listen back to March Of The Black Queen. The latter is very similarly structured, with the feel that it is many stories rolled into one, but I feel that the former has more of an edge to it, with awesome guitar work from May and Deacon, top drumming from Taylor and, of course, that voice. And the Piano work - wow! Apart from that, it came from side black, so it's tantalisingly devilish (enough of the superlatives?) - I think it cannot be topped. Any thoughts? |
| Sebastian 04.03.2010 20:52 |
When talking about tastes, everybody's got different ones and there's no account for it. TBH, my personal favourite song from Freddie is neither Black Queen nor Bo Rhap but Lily of the Valley. It's way simpler than either, but IMO it's more beautiful than both. And likewise, though I adore The March..., my favourite song in the 'II' album is White Queen. Now, reasons why Bo Rhap, and not Black Queen, is regarded as Freddie's (and Queen's) magnum opus: - It's the band's most complex track, musically. Yes, it IS more complex than Black Queen, in the sense that it uses more advanced compositional techniques (except for the polyrhythm). Same with other songs it's usually compared with (e.g. Brian's Prophet's Song). - Even though it's got loads of advanced details, it's still easy to listen, and radio-friendly. That's very uncommon in music: usually they're either simple and catchy and/or memorable (e.g. Stand By Me, Stairway to Heaven or even November Rain despite its 'epic' vibe and length) or very arranged and not too accessible like the aforementioned March of the Black Queen. - It was the band's first #1 hit, and their biggest selling single (it topped Another One Bites the Dust after Freddie died). - It got them out of a potential premature ending of their musical career. - The video, though not the first ever (one of those completely false myths), was very important for them and brought the 'Queen II' cover to life. By the way, though Black Queen is A predecessor for Bo Rhap, it's not THE (direct) predecessor, In the Lap of the Gods is. Freddie himself admitted it, and he surely knew more about those songs than Brian, as he wrote them. |
| mike hunt 05.03.2010 01:16 |
love march of the black queen, but you can't change history. Bo Rhap will always be regarded as their masterpiece. Queen2 is my favorite queen album, and maybe my favorite album ever, but it's not way above A night at the opera. I think opera really is queen's best album overall. |
| john bodega 05.03.2010 01:44 |
Nah, Millionaire Waltz was better than both of 'em. |
| master marathon runner 05.03.2010 03:09 |
You lot, obviously have'nt heard 'Body Language' Master Marathon Runner |
| mike hunt 05.03.2010 04:56 |
Millionare waltz=brilliace. |
| Soundfreak 05.03.2010 05:23 |
For my ears "The March of the Black Queen" sounds like the moment, when the band defined their unique style, sound and identity. The song contains so many elements and sounds that could have been enough for a whole album, as nearly each segment had enough quality to become a song of it's own. And in a way many of their later songs seem to have their origin in this song. For example the "A voice from behind me reminds me..." - segment could have easily been a part of "Love of my Life". It's a very important song in their career and it shows, how confident they must have been putting so many ideas into just one song. |
| mike hunt 05.03.2010 10:29 |
I think it's my fairy king that was the beginning of the Bo Rhap ideas, then continued with the brilliant MOTBQ. Continued with lap of the gods, and so on. All these songs truly were awsome. millionare waltz was the last of the bunch. |
| Holly2003 05.03.2010 11:57 |
MOTBQ and BoRap do have some similarities that aren't there when comparing BoRap and Lap of the Gods, for example the tempo changes and the 'call and response' technique. |
| Sebastian 05.03.2010 12:09 |
Just like my late grandfathers and I have things in common that neither has with my father, etc. |
| Holly2003 05.03.2010 12:46 |
Sebastian wrote: Just like my late grandfathers and I have things in common that neither has with my father, etc. If you want to be literal, Love Of My Life is the direct predecessor to BoRap, since it's the song that came immediately before it on the album. Of course, it might not have been recorded directly before BoRap, which could be another measure of predecessor-ness-ability. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, I don't see too many similarities between BoRap and Lap of the Gods, but there are a number similarities between MOTBQ and BoRap, as I've noted. Of course there are elements of BoRap in a number of other Queen songs that came before BoRap, but if forced to choose just one song, as the topic starters suggests, I'd go with MOTBQ. So Fred can go piss in his heavenly hat: Brian's right this time. |
| Sebastian 05.03.2010 13:03 |
Things Bo Rhap and ItLotG have in common: * Acyclic structure, more so than Black Queen. * The descending bass lick which is almost the same in both songs. * They're the only two songs in the Queen catalogue that combine rock with opera. * Roger's dramatic sopranist vocals. Black Queen also has high notes, but not in the same way. * Neither has the polyrhythm featured in Black Queen. * I>idim chord progression. * Both songs favour flat-side keys (c, Eb, F) more than sharp (G and A respectively). Black Queen's the other way around. * I > II modulations (Black Queen has modulations but not that type AFAIR). * Drumming patterns are more similar. On TMotBQ, Roger applies a wider variety and is more military at times. Things Bo Rhap and TMotBQ have in common: * Cascades, though done differently. * Triumphal perfect cadence ending (false ending in TMotBQ), absent in Lap of the Gods. * The arrangement dynamics and abrupt changes (e.g. solo vs opera, climax vs 'voice from behind') are closer than with LotG. * The closing guitar solo is way more similar between those two than compared with Lap. * The Eb>a modulation in TMotBQ could be considered a predecessor of the Eb>A (more difficult to pull off) in Bo Rhap. However, LotG still has more things in common with BoRhap. Freddie was right about his own song. Brian was right about TMotBQ being A predecessor, but it was not THE predecessor. Lap of the Gods was. The sequence goes like this: My Fairy King --> March of the Black Queen --> In the Lap of the Gods --> Bo Rhap --> Millionaire Waltz Curiously, each was, by far, the most musically complex song of its respective album. BTW, LoML and Bo Rhap do have things in common. One must have influenced the other. |
| Holly2003 05.03.2010 13:27 |
Hmmm... Similarities and differences carry weight. I happen to think that the tempo change and 'call and response' of MOTBQ/BoRap carries more weight in making this judgment than the fact that Lap is more acyclic than MOTBQ -- to use just one example from your list. ps It's a Hard Life is the third 'opera' song in the Queen catalogue. |
| Sebastian 05.03.2010 13:32 |
IAHL copies a bit of a melody of an opera, which doesn't mean it's an opera song. Likewise, All By Myself is not a piano concerto and You Don't Fool Me is not zamba. And of course there are loads of things TMOTBQ and BRhap have in common, but the point remains: Black Queen isn't Bo Rhap's direct predecessor. In the Lap of the Gods (the link between both) is. Even the person who composed all three pieces admitted so. Likewise, Somebody to Love isn't Bo Rhap's successor musically (it may be in terms of leading single and central piece in the album), Millionaire Waltz is. PS: Lap of the Gods also has antiphony, though I agree that BRhap and Black Queen are closer to each other in that respect. Granpa point again. |
| Holly2003 05.03.2010 13:40 |
IAHL is not an opera song but it does "combine rock with opera", albeit only for a short time during the intro. |
| Sebastian 05.03.2010 13:55 |
It doesn't. It takes some melody lines from an opera, but it translates it to a 'regular' piano ballad. It doesn't use opera per se and as such it doesn't combine it with rock either. The intro in Lap of the Gods does, as well as Bo Rhap's middle section. |
| Holly2003 05.03.2010 14:16 |
Sebastian wrote: It doesn't. It takes some melody lines from an opera, but it translates it to a 'regular' piano ballad. It doesn't use opera per se and as such it doesn't combine it with rock either. Err. yes it does. There's no translation: it copies an opera melody, and the rock/pop song follows. There's no translation: it is two separate pieces, thus a combination. |
| Sebastian 05.03.2010 14:34 |
It copies a melody used in an opera, which is not the same as 'an opera melody'. A melody isn't opera, rock, disco or anything else. A melody can be used in opera, rock, disco, etc. What Freddie did was taking a melody that was used in an opera, and use it in a piano ballad. He didn't combine opera with rock in that occasion. He did, though, in both Lap of the Gods and Bohemian Rhapsody. |
| Holly2003 05.03.2010 16:13 |
Sebastian wrote: It copies a melody used in an opera, which is not the same as 'an opera melody'. A melody isn't opera, rock, disco or anything else. A melody can be used in opera, rock, disco, etc. What Freddie did was taking a melody that was used in an opera, and use it in a piano ballad. He didn't combine opera with rock in that occasion. He did, though, in both Lap of the Gods and Bohemian Rhapsody. I refer you to the answer I gave earlier. |
| Micrówave 05.03.2010 18:25 |
Someone called "November Rain" a masterpiece. At first I started laughing uncontrollably. Then I realized in one sense of the word, he's right. So I'm voting Queen's Radio Gaga as their masterpiece. I'm guessing that by "Masterpiece" we mean the song that signalled the end of the band, even if they don't know it. Other famous masterpieces: Overkill - Men At Work Everybody Have Fun Tonight - Wang Chung Raised On Radio (Album) - Journey Lick It Up - Kiss This Love - Maroon 5 Saving All My Love For You - Whitney Houston Victory - The Jacksons Invisible Touch - Genesis |
| mike hunt 05.03.2010 18:54 |
Micrówave wrote: Someone called "November Rain" a masterpiece. At first I started laughing uncontrollably. Then I realized in one sense of the word, he's right. So I'm voting Queen's Radio Gaga as their masterpiece. I'm guessing that by "Masterpiece" we mean the song that signalled the end of the band, even if they don't know it. Other famous masterpieces: Overkill - Men At Work Everybody Have Fun Tonight - Wang Chung Raised On Radio (Album) - Journey Lick It Up - Kiss This Love - Maroon 5 Saving All My Love For You - Whitney Houston Victory - The Jacksons Invisible Touch - Genesis GNR doesn't have a masterpiece.....Grossly overated..... |
| Sebastian 05.03.2010 22:09 |
Micrówave wrote: Someone called "November Rain" a masterpiece. At least in this thread, nobody's called it a masterpiece (yet, that is). What I wrote was: 'That's very uncommon in music: usually they're either simple and catchy and/or memorable (e.g. Stand By Me, Stairway to Heaven or even November Rain despite its 'epic' vibe and length) or very arranged and not too accessible like the aforementioned March of the Black Queen.' By 'they' I meant songs, which may or may not be masterpieces. And indeed, November Rain is both simple and memorable in spite of its 'epic' vibe and length: ten chords (simple), square phrasing (simple), memorable solo, and people tend to remember (at least parts of) the song regardless of whether they consider it a masterpice or not. Of course the video helped a lot too... I remember watching it for the first time 17-18 years ago and adoring the actress who played the wife. Good marketing strategy. |
| Micrówave 06.03.2010 05:35 |
I remember hearing it and knowing that we'd never get a decent GNR album after that. Epic vibe? No, Axl simply put his thumb on the F and twisted his wrist to the right and the song was born. |
| Russian Headlong 06.03.2010 07:14 |
Agree 100% |
| liam 06.03.2010 09:08 |
Im not great at musical theory, but where is the polyrhythm in MOTBQ and what is a polyrhythm? |
| brENsKi 06.03.2010 09:36 |
mike hunt wrote: love march of the black queen, but you can't change history. Bo Rhap will always be regarded as their masterpiece. Queen2 is my favorite queen album, and maybe my favorite album ever, but it's not way above A night at the opera. I think opera really is queen's best album overall. side black is the best chunk of any queen songs gathered together in one sequence....and FFMS/Nevermore/March are the original Bo Rhap.... for me personally, Nevermore will always be Freddie/Queen's finest and most beautiful song |
| Sebastian 06.03.2010 10:53 |
> Epic vibe? Indeed: it's long, involved, features loads of overdubs, that qualifies for its being epic. > No, Axl simply put his thumb on the F and twisted his wrist to the right and the song was born. Actually, it's E. > Im not great at musical theory, but where is the polyrhythm in MOTBQ and what is a polyrhythm? Polyrhythm is having two or more metres going on simultaneously. During the 'crazy interlude' in TMotBQ the vocals are in 8/8 while the other instruments are in 12/8. This bloke explains it way better than I could: http://www.queensongs.info/the-book/songwriting-analyses/no-synth-era/queen-ii/march-of-the-black-queen.html |
| brENsKi 06.03.2010 17:53 |
i think the true definition of "masterpiece" in rock music is possibly more apt when applied to a song that happened relatively early in a band's career ...one which became their signature.....that - no matter what they did afterward - this one song would always eclipse all else.....so that non-fans would comment "oh yeah, aren't they band that did that ****** song" blue oyster cult - reaper procul harem - whiter shade of pale deep purple - smoke on the water hawkwind - silver machine that klind of thing |
| Sebastian 06.03.2010 20:29 |
Perhaps more than 'relatively early', it was the one that launched the act into superstardom - which indeed tends to happen relatively early. Of course, in retrospect, November Rain is closer to the GnR founding (released six years afterwards) than to the present (UYI is about to turn nineteen). Of course, there are many ways to look at it, as some would regard UYI I&II and perhaps SI as their last work and consider 'Chinese Democracy' to be something else; in which case November Rain is indeed part of their later days. With Queen I suppose the same disagreements could occur: some think Queen was only 1970-1991, in which case 'The Works' is part of the later days. For those thinking Queen covers the 1970-2010 period and counting, then 'The Miracle' is closer to the beginning (19 years) than the present (21 years). But IMO there are other factors too. For instance, I suppose millions of people love Crazy Little Thing, and there are probably many (it could be 20 or 45000, etc) whose favourite song is that one, but not too many would call it the band's masterpiece. There's something about Bo Rhap that made it groundbreaking and pivotal, even if it didn't represent Queen peaking in America, yet. Curiously, also in retrospect, Bo Rhap was done close to the end of the band's most overlayered period. Two years later they'd be doing things like Sleeping on the Sidewalk and My Melancholy Blues, which are great, but in a radically different direction. For some extent it also happened with Stairway to Heaven and some others. November Rain, to me, is probably more similar to Dream On: a very important moment in each concert featuring the singer on piano and the lead guitarist playing some of his most famous work. |
| dragon-fly 07.03.2010 05:21 |
Great song- no doubt. Though I'd say My Fairy King is better (for the first album it's absolutely superb). Also I like more Prophet's Song than Rhapsody (I'm not saying that I dislike Rhapsody!). I never understood why it wasn't a released as a single. The medley with Black Queen was a really nice number. |
| mariamercuri 09.03.2010 04:58 |
It's weird to think of masterpieces when talking about Queen's music. A large part of their musical output is a whole masterpiece in my opinion. Personally I think The March of the Black Queen is a MASTER PIECE, I mean it is the musical piece of a great master of music as Mercury was, an artist who was able to create something beyond the skills of the majority of his contemporary collegues. The work of a genius blessed with powerful imagination and almost divine musical inspiration. Too groundbreaking too be fully appreciated by everybody... |
| Amazon 09.03.2010 11:39 |
mike hunt wrote:Micrówave wrote: Someone called "November Rain" a masterpiece. At first I started laughing uncontrollably. Then I realized in one sense of the word, he's right. So I'm voting Queen's Radio Gaga as their masterpiece. I'm guessing that by "Masterpiece" we mean the song that signalled the end of the band, even if they don't know it. Other famous masterpieces: Overkill - Men At Work Everybody Have Fun Tonight - Wang Chung Raised On Radio (Album) - Journey Lick It Up - Kiss This Love - Maroon 5 Saving All My Love For You - Whitney Houston Victory - The Jacksons Invisible Touch - GenesisGNR doesn't have a masterpiece.....Grossly overated..... I think that they do (probably Sweet Child 'o Mine) but I don't think that November Rain is it. It's a very good song, but I don't think it showcases the strength of the group in the same way that their Appetite for Destruction stuff, or some of the songs from Use Your Illusion II, do. While Use Your Illusion I is a good album I don't think it's as sharp or as impressive as UYI II. Regarding The March of the Black Queen, I've always regarded it as Queen's first masterpiece, with the Prophet's Song and Bo Rhap following a year later. In the Lap of the Gods may be significant, but IMO it was the weakest song off SHA; probably the only Freddie song which I would describe as boring. I don't think it was a particularly good song, and nowhere near as good as TMOTBQ/Bo Rhap/TPS. |
| Kamenliter 09.03.2010 16:38 |
'March' is definitely one of my all-time favorite Queen songs and even though I've heard it hundreds of times, there's one lyric, not printed anywhere, that I've yet to figure out. I think I posted a topic about it a few years back. The line comes right after Freddie sings "She boils and she bakes and she never dots her i's"..it's that sing-songy bit...'she will lead you onnnn' or something like that...anyone want to venture their best guesses? |
| Holly2003 09.03.2010 17:33 |
Kamenliter wrote: 'March' is definitely one of my all-time favorite Queen songs and even though I've heard it hundreds of times, there's one lyric, not printed anywhere, that I've yet to figure out. I think I posted a topic about it a few years back. The line comes right after Freddie sings "She boils and she bakes and she never dots her i's"..it's that sing-songy bit...'she will lead you onnnn' or something like that...anyone want to venture their best guesses? ACCORDING TO ULTIMATEQUEEN.CO.UK IT'S "Look what we've done " |
| steven 35638 09.03.2010 18:00 |
They're both epic masterpieces. But I never fell in love with 'March' quite as much as some of the others on this forum. |
| Kamenliter 13.03.2010 18:59 |
Thanks, Holly, but listening to it, it surely doesn't sound like that would be correct. |
| Holly2003 14.03.2010 09:15 |
Kamenliter wrote: Thanks, Holly, but listening to it, it surely doesn't sound like that would be correct. I think you're right. I can hear the word "lead" or "lead on" , as you say, but I could be wrong. Good question btw. Something genuinely new, but right in front of our faces all this time. A mystery . |
| Kamenliter 15.03.2010 00:14 |
I wonder if Brian, Roger or John would even remember. It's something that's perplexed me for years...I suppose even the guy that transposed the lyrics couldn't figure it out! |
| Sebastian 07.12.2014 02:31 |
Nice thread. |
| tomchristie22 07.12.2014 06:54 |
Old thread :P I'm almost certain the mystery line is 'She's our leader', with the 'er' drawn out. It's very difficult to say though, as the first word is buried underneath the tail end of 'Never dots her I's'. |
| thomasquinn 32989 07.12.2014 08:41 |
Why are you playing resurrection man on ancient topics, Sebastian? |
| Sebastian 07.12.2014 09:10 |
I enjoy it. |
| matt z 07.12.2014 10:05 |
Jesus. I thought Micrówave had risen from the dead. Way to spoil that possibility, man. |
| fras444 09.12.2014 21:36 |
Have to say imo, that Estranged is far better than November Rain... and also the song structure sounds slightly more complex to my ear... Just that the video to it is just a little.... over the top... GNR has to be a perfect example of the different sound between the guitarist that helped wrote the song and someone who played the song... inrg to Izzy Stradlin and Gilbert Clark.. Its true what Slash said about how Izzy had a very particular way and feel to how he played rhythm guitar and how it fitted perfectly to the chemistry of the band, something that was missing when Gliby played Izzys parts live after Izzy had left the band... and something that was a key part to GNR sound that is missing today.. Have to say that Izzy was the key part to the sound of GNR "that ringing sound he had" something that can not be truly replicated by anyone where as Slash.... Buckethead sounded almost spot on to Slash particularly in the November Rain solo |
| Ozz 10.12.2014 10:46 |
I like these threads that add some nice trivia I didn't know, or accurate info. But when it's about tastes and the answers are filled with nitpick and truth ownership.... ugh This has both. The problem with Bo Rhap is that we have listened it too many damn times!. I'm sure I'm not the only one who skips those segments from every documentary released. We appretiate it again when we let years go by without listening Anato.. and we re discover it. The March of the Black Queen it's a wonderful epic song. Didn't work very well live. It loses a lot of his magic. I wonder if "Surrender to the city" was more than the snippet we all know at the end of the song. It makes my mind go wild... |
| Sebastian 10.12.2014 11:29 |
It's nice to re-read those threads as they certainly reflect the way people saw these issues four years ago (in my case) and the mistakes made back then. While genetics, in the strictly biological sense, don't necessarily reflect the way music composition works, there are some parallels in their studies. Retrospectively, pointing out that people sometimes resemble their own grandparents more overtly than their parents, is in the right direction, although that's not by any means the end of the story. Biological evolution and musical evolution aren't at all related, yet, again, a parallel can be drawn especially considering how they're both gradual processes and how lack of fossils doesn't at all imply lack of species. 'Bo Rhap' didn't spawn directly from 'Lap of the Gods' or 'Black Queen', the same way no Australopithecus magically gave birth to a Homo habilis; to bring in another parallel, people didn't go to bed in the Middle Ages and woke up the next in the Renaissance. Those are all, again, gradual processes. Between 'Black Queen' and 'Bo Rhap,' or between 'Lap of the Gods' and 'Bo Rhap,' there were probably dozens of discarded links we'll never know about, which may possibly include a combination of updated/reworked versions of the earlier track, working versions of the latter one, or different songs altogether. Mack said once that one of Freddie's writing methods was precisely re-writing until he was satisfied with what he had. In that sense, it's possible, as one of the theories, that Fred wrote and re-wrote 'Bo Rhap' many times, adding and subtracting bits and pieces until it took shape, and even while they were recording it he kept coming up with more ideas (e.g., the ascending 'never'). Out of those dozens of ideas, only a few of them got recorded, which identify steps in the whole evolutionary process of his songwriting. Neither 'Black Queen' nor 'Lap of the Gods' would, thus, be a direct forerunner to 'Bo Rhap,' though the point of 'Lap' having more aspects in common and being closer to it still remains. |
| Sebastian 11.12.2014 11:40 |
Ozz wrote: But when it's about tastes and the answers are filled with nitpick and truth ownership.... ughThere's no such thing as 'truth ownership,' and that's the whole point. 'Truth' is verifiable. It's not about taking my word for it or your word for it or his/her word for it, it's about something any person can double-check. Is 'Bo Rhap' a 'better' song than 'Best Friend'? That's just taste, and there's no right or wrong answer. Is (the album version of) 'Bo Rhap' longer than (the album version of( 'Best Friend'? There's a definite answer, and anyone with the album can verify it. Unless you're speaking a different language where 'longer' means 'shorter,' the answer is 'yes,' and it's not because I say so or because you say so, it's because anyone can prove it. |