qrock 30.12.2009 12:42 |
Brian May is one of the most consistent rock guitar players there is. If you are asking for a great solo in a single, it is almost certain that Brian would suceed. He's great live, virtuoso, deliver's classic riffs and Always plays at the highest of standards. He's up there with the likes of Jimmy Page. I would like to know which Queen Albums does Brian May play at his best. Just make a list and rate his guitar work on each studio album. |
masterstroke_84 30.12.2009 15:19 |
First of all: Don't put Brian in the same league as Page... you are insulting Brian :P... Page sucks from the first time he picked up a guitar... turds for fingers. Best work by Brian? mmm... everything from Queen II to Races... and everything from Miracle to Back to The light era (his best years as a guitarist for me)... |
mike hunt 31.12.2009 01:27 |
Jimmy page has influenced Just about every guitarist on the planet, but masterstroke84 say's he sucks!....lol. Ignorance is bliss. anyway, You can't go wrong with 70's queen and the miracle to back to the light, or even made in heaven has some nice guitar stuff. My personal favorites from brian are Queen2, SHA and opera. Back to the light and the miracle has great guitar stuff, but the songs are forgettable. |
Back2TheLight 31.12.2009 03:35 |
Jimmy Page isn't a shitty guitar player by any means, but Brian May in terms of craftsmanship, innovative style, technique, and just overall solos if you want...Brian can run circles around Jimmy Page. His best work? Not The Cosmos Rocks by a long shot lol! I'd have to say I think Innuendo was a crowning moment for him. As was Queen II, and Opera/Races. |
john bodega 31.12.2009 04:02 |
I still think his greatest work in Queen was on The Miracle album, despite the shittiness of about half of the songs. It was in his solo career where he really shined, but as his voice/style of music tends to turn some folks off, they're really missing out on a good bit of playing. |
thomasquinn 32989 31.12.2009 07:04 |
My two cents as a guitarist and (most importantly) music theoretician: Brian May is/was an absolutely *brilliant* studio guitarist. No one can best him when it comes to guitar orchestrations, and I doubt anyone has as full an understanding of the effects of multi-layered guitar recordings on the totality of a song as he does. However, as a live guitarist, I would rank him as only reasonably good, primarily because of his inflexibility / stringent attachment to rehearsed parts, by which I mean that Brian has or had a morbid fear of making mistakes, and thus of improvisation, which in part accounts for the remarkable uniformity of his solos through the years. |
Amazon 31.12.2009 13:58 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: My two cents as a guitarist and (most importantly) music theoretician: Brian May is/was an absolutely *brilliant* studio guitarist. No one can best him when it comes to guitar orchestrations, and I doubt anyone has as full an understanding of the effects of multi-layered guitar recordings on the totality of a song as he does. However, as a live guitarist, I would rank him as only reasonably good, primarily because of his inflexibility / stringent attachment to rehearsed parts, by which I mean that Brian has or had a morbid fear of making mistakes, and thus of improvisation, which in part accounts for the remarkable uniformity of his solos through the years. Great post!! I just want to say that while I regard Brian to be a truly magnificent guitarist, with his best work IMO probably being on SHA and ANATO, it annoys me that people here are always pissing on Page. Yes, he was sloppy, and yes, he wasn't always as creative as Brian, but he was a damn fine guitarist (IMO easily among the very greatest of all time) and was indisputably among the most influential of all guitarists. It seems to me that it has become almost the hip thing to diss guitarists like him and Hendrix. I don't like it at all, especially since Brian was influenced by Hendrix, and probably by Page as well. |
Major Tom 31.12.2009 14:28 |
The difference between a great and a legendary guitarist is, in my opinion: A great guitarist might have the speed, great riffs and superb solos, but could easily be copied down to a thrill by a equally skilled player. (Eg. Zakk Wylde, great speed, great solos and one of my personal favourites, but he could in my opinion be confused for..say..the late Dimebag) A legendary guitarist is one with his axe. There are no doubt who it is when you hear him play. A legendary guitarist is playing from his soul. Even though this player might not posess the skill of speed or any other playing techniques many consider to be important, he is unmistakenly HIM. (Eg. Brian May, David Gilmour, Jimmy Page and even The Edge fits this category I think) And by the way. Don't you dare say Page can't play. "The rain song", listen to it. |
Major Tom 31.12.2009 14:31 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: My two cents as a guitarist and (most importantly) music theoretician: Brian May is/was an absolutely *brilliant* studio guitarist. No one can best him when it comes to guitar orchestrations, and I doubt anyone has as full an understanding of the effects of multi-layered guitar recordings on the totality of a song as he does. However, as a live guitarist, I would rank him as only reasonably good, primarily because of his inflexibility / stringent attachment to rehearsed parts, by which I mean that Brian has or had a morbid fear of making mistakes, and thus of improvisation, which in part accounts for the remarkable uniformity of his solos through the years.Great post. This is EXACTLY what I think of Brian, but I couldn't get it out in english. Thank you! |
Serry... 31.12.2009 14:40 |
Good Company |
Oberon 31.12.2009 15:53 |
I kind of understand what you say about him being "safe" when live, but really, when I think about the solos in Queen songs, there are few where the solo (or rhythm) could or should have been changed significantly, or the crux / magic of the song and its melody etc would be lost. Think Killer Queen, BoRhap, DSMN etc. Having said that, the songs weren't really ever carbon copies of the studio versions (IMO). I would point at AKOM and AOBTD as stand outs in that respect, so I would give him some slack with that in mind Where he absolutely lacked originality was his live solo piece (i.e the Brighton Rock solo). It's a fantastic use of delay etc, and no-one can do it like Brian (that I've heard at least), but it was very repeatitive, and can easily get boring. To his credit, although he still did it on the last 2 QPR tours, he did add in bits of Chinese Torture and Last horizons etc to spice it up, but these aren't improv either. Finally, there have been other bands where the guitarist has gone off script and improv'd in a solo, and I've thought it was awful (can't think of an example at the moment), so there's an argument for sticking with the base of a song and its solo. So I understand what you're saying, but there isn't another guitarist I like more in studio or live (maybe because I just love Queen???), but I do like lots of other bands etc |
Sebastian 31.12.2009 16:43 |
> Jimmy page has influenced Just about every guitarist on the planet Wrong: Julian Bream wasn't influenced by Page; neither were Peo Kindgren, John Christopher Williams, Paco de Lucía, John Dearman, Eva Fampas, Alberto Ponce, Stepan Rak and many, many more who are still alive, still playing brilliantly and the fact they weren't influenced by Page didn't seem to affect them. So, Page influences many guitarists on the planet, but far far far far far from 'just about every guitarist'. > I still think his greatest work in Queen was on The Miracle album, Totally agree. > despite the shittiness of about half of the songs. Indeed, but the topic's about his best guitar work, not about the best songs. > it annoys me that people here are always pissing on Page. It's freedom of speech. Page's one of those artists who tends to have 49.5% of the people yelling 'you suck', and 49.5% saying 'you're a god, please fuck me!'. I don't personally agree with either but I totally respect those who feel strongly about their take on him. > he wasn't always as creative as Brian TBH, Brian wasn't always as creative as Brian either. > but he was a damn fine guitarist (IMO easily among the very greatest of all time) IMO, not even sort of close to 'the very greatest of all time'. Certainly a good one, especially on acoustic, but there are loads and loads and loads of guitarists who, while being loads and loads and loads of times less influential and less famous, are/were way better. > It seems to me that it has become almost the hip thing to diss guitarists like him and Hendrix. While the actual Hendrix wasn't even sort of close to the mythical one, he certainly played a hell of a lot better than Page. > I don't like it at all, especially since Brian was influenced by Hendrix, and probably by Page as well. In fact he was. So? Whoever wants to pan them, has the right to do so, because the fact of the matter is they were both grossly overrated. Now, does it mean they suck? No. But of course, anybody who wants to say Dr May's way better than both is entitled to. > A great guitarist might have the speed, great riffs and superb solos, but could easily be copied down to a thrill by a equally skilled player. (Eg. Zakk Wylde, great speed, great solos and one of my personal favourites, but he could in my opinion be confused for..say..the late Dimebag) IMO they're quite different once you get to know them. But I agree neither is as distinctive as, say, Clapton or Santana, whom you can recognise from the very first note. > A legendary guitarist is one with his axe. There are no doubt who it is when you hear him play. A legendary guitarist is playing from his soul. Even though this player might not posess the skill of speed or any other playing techniques many consider to be important, he is unmistakenly HIM. (Eg. Brian May, David Gilmour, Jimmy Page and even The Edge fits this category I think) The Edge is more a sound engineer than a guitarist per se, IMO. > Having said that, the songs weren't really ever carbon copies of the studio versions (IMO). Statements like that aren't (and can't be) a matter of opinion. Either they were carbon copies or they weren't. And of course, they weren't. > I would point at AKOM and AOBTD as stand outs in that respect, so I would give him some slack with that in mind I think his work on DSMN was great on stage, much better than in the studio where he only played that (great) solo and made some fills at the end and that was it. > Where he absolutely lacked originality was his live solo piece (i.e the Brighton Rock solo). It's a fantastic use of delay etc, and no-one can do it like Brian (that I've heard at least), but it was very repeatitive, and can easily get boring. I actually find it interesting, and you can tell he enjoys it. For a 99% of the public (me included) it may be the least-exciting part of each concert, but it was probably done to entertain the remaining 1% (that includes the doctor himself). > To his credit, although he still did it on the last 2 QPR tours, he did add in bits of Chinese Torture and Last horizons etc to spice it up, but these aren't improv either. IMO, improvisation's a bit overrated by some, when they think that a guitarist that improvises is better than one who doesn't... at the end of the day, most so-called improvisations are made by combining licks and bits of a musician's comfort zone, so at the end of the day, they're not 'really' improvisations, or not more so than beginning the Bo Rhap solo slightly lower or higher or adding a different phrasing or whatever. > Finally, there have been other bands where the guitarist has gone off script and improv'd in a solo, and I've thought it was awful (can't think of an example at the moment) Think Page at Live Aid ;) > so there's an argument for sticking with the base of a song and its solo. Especially when the songs have such beautiful arrangements. There are certain details Queen songs have in the music that are as fundamental to them as the lyrics themselves: I wouldn't like Fred to change the We Are the Champions lyrics at last minute, not only because you expect them to be what they are, but because it'd be very hard to keep the rhyme and stuff... same for things in the arrangements such as the bass licks and the guitar crescendo... if they're left out, it's odd. For certain things where they specifically wanted a more improvised playing-along thing (e.g. the ending of Crazy Little Thing), it's perfectly fine to come up with different things every night. But for other things, IMO, it's like having a top chef saying 'today I decided I'm not using cheese in the lasagna and instead I'm putting some potato on it.' |
Ziggy_SD 31.12.2009 17:33 |
Couldn't agree more that Brian was a fairly ordinary 'live' guitarist. Actually, I would go as far and say he is overrated as a live musician. For the most part, he could never quite nail even his own solos. As for his Brighton Rock solos, they're utterly tedious and seem to be nothing but an excuse for him to stand in the spotlight, playing random chords disguised by delays). I guess no-one in the band wanted to break it to him to hurt his ego. But in terms of his studio work, he truly does have the Midas touch. ALL Queen albums feature stunning guitar work, particularly their first four albums. |
Major Tom 31.12.2009 18:42 |
>The Edge is more a sound engineer than a guitarist per se, IMO. Yeah, you're prob. right. I hereby recommend everyone to watch, if you haven't already, "It might get loud". Page, Edge and Jack White jam and talk about shit for almost 110 minutes. My respect for these three lads grew X2. |
Holly2003 31.12.2009 19:24 |
Don't know about 'best', but I happen to really like the Scandal solo, the fills on Flick of the Wrist, and fun hard rock on Flash Gordon (the battle theme etc), the rif on It's Late and the tapping on Princes of the Universe. However, hiis most enjoyable , and probably most consistantly good playing, is on A Day at the Races, and it's no coincidence then that his best live work was on the tour following the release of that album, for example, the Earl's Court show. |
Major Tom 31.12.2009 19:36 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ilEvbl3Vv0 |
cacatua 31.12.2009 20:41 |
Serry... wrote: Good Company I'll second that! Brian is a craftsman. |
mike hunt 01.01.2010 01:26 |
Sebastian wrote: > Jimmy page has influenced Just about every guitarist on the planet Wrong: Julian Bream wasn't influenced by Page; neither were Peo Kindgren, John Christopher Williams, Paco de Lucía, John Dearman, Eva Fampas, Alberto Ponce, Stepan Rak and many, many more who are still alive, still playing brilliantly and the fact they weren't influenced by Page didn't seem to affect them. So, Page influences many guitarists on the planet, but far far far far far from 'just about every guitarist'. > I still think his greatest work in Queen was on The Miracle album, Totally agree. > despite the shittiness of about half of the songs. Indeed, but the topic's about his best guitar work, not about the best songs. > it annoys me that people here are always pissing on Page. It's freedom of speech. Page's one of those artists who tends to have 49.5% of the people yelling 'you suck', and 49.5% saying 'you're a god, please fuck me!'. I don't personally agree with either but I totally respect those who feel strongly about their take on him. > he wasn't always as creative as Brian TBH, Brian wasn't always as creative as Brian either. > but he was a damn fine guitarist (IMO easily among the very greatest of all time) IMO, not even sort of close to 'the very greatest of all time'. Certainly a good one, especially on acoustic, but there are loads and loads and loads of guitarists who, while being loads and loads and loads of times less influential and less famous, are/were way better. > It seems to me that it has become almost the hip thing to diss guitarists like him and Hendrix. While the actual Hendrix wasn't even sort of close to the mythical one, he certainly played a hell of a lot better than Page. > I don't like it at all, especially since Brian was influenced by Hendrix, and probably by Page as well. In fact he was. So? Whoever wants to pan them, has the right to do so, because the fact of the matter is they were both grossly overrated. Now, does it mean they suck? No. But of course, anybody who wants to say Dr May's way better than both is entitled to. > A great guitarist might have the speed, great riffs and superb solos, but could easily be copied down to a thrill by a equally skilled player. (Eg. Zakk Wylde, great speed, great solos and one of my personal favourites, but he could in my opinion be confused for..say..the late Dimebag) IMO they're quite different once you get to know them. But I agree neither is as distinctive as, say, Clapton or Santana, whom you can recognise from the very first note. > A legendary guitarist is one with his axe. There are no doubt who it is when you hear him play. A legendary guitarist is playing from his soul. Even though this player might not posess the skill of speed or any other playing techniques many consider to be important, he is unmistakenly HIM. (Eg. Brian May, David Gilmour, Jimmy Page and even The Edge fits this category I think) The Edge is more a sound engineer than a guitarist per se, IMO. > Having said that, the songs weren't really ever carbon copies of the studio versions (IMO). Statements like that aren't (and can't be) a matter of opinion. Either they were carbon copies or they weren't. And of course, they weren't. > I would point at AKOM and AOBTD as stand outs in that respect, so I would give him some slack with that in mind I think his work on DSMN was great on stage, much better than in the studio where he only played that (great) solo and made some fills at the end and that was it. > Where he absolutely lacked originality was his live solo piece (i.e the Brighton Rock solo). It's a fantastic use of delay etc, and no-one can do it like Brian (that I've heard at least), but it was very repeatitive, and can easily get boring. I actually find it interesting, and you can tell he enjoys it. For a 99% of the public (me included) it may be the least-exciting part of each concert, but it was probably done to entertain the remaining 1% (that includes the doctor himself). > To his credit, although he still did it on the last 2 QPR tours, he did add in bits of Chinese Torture and Last horizons etc to spice it up, but these aren't improv either. IMO, improvisation's a bit overrated by some, when they think that a guitarist that improvises is better than one who doesn't... at the end of the day, most so-called improvisations are made by combining licks and bits of a musician's comfort zone, so at the end of the day, they're not 'really' improvisations, or not more so than beginning the Bo Rhap solo slightly lower or higher or adding a different phrasing or whatever. > Finally, there have been other bands where the guitarist has gone off script and improv'd in a solo, and I've thought it was awful (can't think of an example at the moment) Think Page at Live Aid ;) > so there's an argument for sticking with the base of a song and its solo. Especially when the songs have such beautiful arrangements. There are certain details Queen songs have in the music that are as fundamental to them as the lyrics themselves: I wouldn't like Fred to change the We Are the Champions lyrics at last minute, not only because you expect them to be what they are, but because it'd be very hard to keep the rhyme and stuff... same for things in the arrangements such as the bass licks and the guitar crescendo... if they're left out, it's odd. For certain things where they specifically wanted a more improvised playing-along thing (e.g. the ending of Crazy Little Thing), it's perfectly fine to come up with different things every night. But for other things, IMO, it's like having a top chef saying 'today I decided I'm not using cheese in the lasagna and instead I'm putting some potato on it.' I'm talking about rock guitarists, Not jazz, the blues. It's a fact page was a huge influence on most rock guitarists. A bigger influence than brian for sure. I don't think page was a god, i'm not even a huge zep fan, but it's obvious the man was considered an all time great. don't even start with hendrix, easily the most influencial guitarist in rock history. overall, i'll take brian over page but I'm biased. |
Sebastian 01.01.2010 01:31 |
> I'm talking about rock guitarists, Not jazz, the blues. Your post read: 'Jimmy page has influenced Just about every guitarist on the planet'. You could've written '...just about every rock guitarist on the planet' and problem solved. Your mistake, not mine. > It's a fact page was a huge influence on most rock guitarists. Yes, that's true. > A bigger influence than brian for sure. At the moment... > I don't think page was a god, i'm not even a huge zep fan, but it's obvious the man was considered an all time great. Yes... so? It's also obvious that the earth was considered flat. > don't even start with hendrix, easily the most influencial guitarist in rock history. 'The most influential' is not necessarily the same as 'the best'. > overall, i'll take brian over page but I'm biased. In terms of influence, Page's (at the moment) made a bigger impact than Brian. But in terms of who plays better (regardless of who influenced more people, who's better-known, etc), Brian's way better. |
john bodega 01.01.2010 02:25 |
I've never understood the vitriol involved in guitar-related discussions (I'm not saying it exists here YET, but it frequently happens). It's not dissing Page to see him for what he was - a very ordinary player, great composer, inventive producer, and influential dude. If you really love something (a style of music, or the person who plays it) then you won't have a problem as seeing them as imperfect and fallible. I always have (and always will) laugh at the know-it-all's who dismiss people like Hendrix, though. Hendrix sounds like Hendrix - you sound like the last instructional video you watched. Very, very few people who are playing today have earned the right to pick out a part of guitar evolution and say "that stinks". Even if you recognise that a player is pretty ordinary, you should always acknowledge their importance to the evolution of the craft you are involved with. You can't look at human evolution and say "australopithecus was fucking unnecessary". It had to exist, so that the stuff that followed could happen. Sheesh! |
john bodega 01.01.2010 02:27 |
Sebastian wrote: Indeed, but the topic's about his best guitar work, not about the best songs.Mmm, it's not totally unrelated. For me the Miracle is still worth a listen for the performances - despite the songs themselves. Brian's guitar is one of the few reasons I can stomach the lesser tracks on there (and Freddie, who was sounding excellent). For me it's the opposite of Hot Space - some really interesting tracks that were ruined with the production (case in point - those songs were absolutely killer when played live). |
mike hunt 01.01.2010 03:02 |
Hendrix died at 26 and look at the Impact he made. Imagine if he lived until he was 60?....I do agree brian was a better play than page, but trying too argue that point with most rock fans is an uphill battle. unless the debate is on Queenzone of course. |
Sebastian 01.01.2010 04:28 |
> I've never understood the vitriol involved in guitar-related discussions (I'm not saying it exists here YET, but it frequently happens). It's not something that has to be understood IMO. > If you really love something (a style of music, or the person who plays it) then you won't have a problem as seeing them as imperfect and fallible. Yes, and that's not only the case with music. > I always have (and always will) laugh at the know-it-all's who dismiss people like Hendrix, though. Hendrix sounds like Hendrix - you sound like the last instructional video you watched. That's quite oversimplifying it (I know - or hope - you don't mean 'you' as in 'me' or anybody else in particular), since you (and I mean you, Zeb) can't possibly know if everybody who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) sounds like the last instructional video they watched. AAMOF, you (you, Zeb) can't even know if a person who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) has watched instructional videos. > Very, very few people who are playing today have earned the right to pick out a part of guitar evolution and say "that stinks". The thing is, IMO, Hendrix wasn't a part of guitar evolution per se: absolutely every chord he played (including the wrongly-called Hendrix chord), every 'trick' he popularised, even the trend of playing a national anthem... all those things were pre-existing. And even before he was born, there already were guitar players who performed music much more elaborate than anything he did in his life (of course, not in rock, but at the end of the day it's music). Hendrix was (and still is) incredibly important as a cultural icon, as a person who directly or indirectly inspired probably millions into buying guitars and trying them out. In terms of influence, he's second to none and he may have probably influenced even people playing in other genres. But purely speaking in terms of music, he invented nothing. Is that bad? Not at all. But it is important, IMO, to keep in mind that he was, musically, not a stepping stone... way before he existed, there was already great guitar music. And, again, music is music, be it rock, hip-hop, classical, funk or whatever... a C chord is a C chord, etc. In terms of who is/was a more influential guitarist, nobody would 'beat' Hendrix (I know this is not a football match but...). However, in terms of who plays/played guitar better, there are/were many people who 'beat' him by a country mile, as well as many people who're vastly inferior (Page included). > Even if you recognise that a player is pretty ordinary, you should always acknowledge their importance to the evolution of the craft you are involved with. Another angle: when cars were invented, somebody had to be the first to be run over by a car. Does it mean the driver 'invented' traffic-related deaths? Does it mean that without him or her there would be no car accidents? Same case here: Hendrix may have been the first to (successfully) do this and that, but it doesn't mean without him those things wouldn't exist. His importance as a cultural icon, as an idol and as a person whose art marked generations is undeniable. But music had already evolved way past his own limits... and, again, music is music, regardless of genre or even instrument (at the end of the day, it's not about playing guitar, but about playing music through the guitar, which is a concept very few people mastered, and Hendrix was indeed one of them - that, IMO, is his most important contribution, and a pretty hard one to match). > You can't look at human evolution and say "australopithecus was fucking unnecessary". Sure. But it'd also be ridiculous to think 'Australopithecus was taller than modern basketball players' or 'Australopithecus could master more languages than modern polyglots'. > It had to exist, so that the stuff that followed could happen. See the car accident example. > Mmm, it's not totally unrelated. Sure, but only in certain cases... I mean, if a score has the guitar playing an ostinato E on the sixth string for 60 minutes, even if the guitarist is a virtuoso, there's not much chance to prove it. > For me the Miracle is still worth a listen for the performances - despite the songs themselves. Brian's guitar is one of the few reasons I can stomach the lesser tracks on there (and Freddie, who was sounding excellent). I still hate songs like Rain Must Fall, but I think the guitar work there is extremely well-done. > Hendrix died at 26 and look at the Impact he made. Imagine if he lived until he was 60? We'll never know. Maybe he'd be even more famous, maybe not... that's a pointless argument IMO. > I do agree brian was a better play than page, but trying too argue that point with most rock fans is an uphill battle. And? |
Amazon 01.01.2010 05:34 |
Zebonka12 wrote: I've never understood the vitriol involved in guitar-related discussions (I'm not saying it exists here YET, but it frequently happens). It's not dissing Page to see him for what he was - a very ordinary player, great composer, inventive producer, and influential dude. If you really love something (a style of music, or the person who plays it) then you won't have a problem as seeing them as imperfect and fallible. When I moaned that people were pissing on Page, I was referring to the following comment: "Page sucks from the first time he picked up a guitar... turds for fingers." IMO, and I'm no Page groupie, that comment goes beyond dissing him. |
mike hunt 01.01.2010 05:43 |
Sebastian wrote: > I've never understood the vitriol involved in guitar-related discussions (I'm not saying it exists here YET, but it frequently happens). It's not something that has to be understood IMO. > If you really love something (a style of music, or the person who plays it) then you won't have a problem as seeing them as imperfect and fallible. Yes, and that's not only the case with music. > I always have (and always will) laugh at the know-it-all's who dismiss people like Hendrix, though. Hendrix sounds like Hendrix - you sound like the last instructional video you watched. That's quite oversimplifying it (I know - or hope - you don't mean 'you' as in 'me' or anybody else in particular), since you (and I mean you, Zeb) can't possibly know if everybody who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) sounds like the last instructional video they watched. AAMOF, you (you, Zeb) can't even know if a person who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) has watched instructional videos. > Very, very few people who are playing today have earned the right to pick out a part of guitar evolution and say "that stinks". The thing is, IMO, Hendrix wasn't a part of guitar evolution per se: absolutely every chord he played (including the wrongly-called Hendrix chord), every 'trick' he popularised, even the trend of playing a national anthem... all those things were pre-existing. And even before he was born, there already were guitar players who performed music much more elaborate than anything he did in his life (of course, not in rock, but at the end of the day it's music). Hendrix was (and still is) incredibly important as a cultural icon, as a person who directly or indirectly inspired probably millions into buying guitars and trying them out. In terms of influence, he's second to none and he may have probably influenced even people playing in other genres. But purely speaking in terms of music, he invented nothing. Is that bad? Not at all. But it is important, IMO, to keep in mind that he was, musically, not a stepping stone... way before he existed, there was already great guitar music. And, again, music is music, be it rock, hip-hop, classical, funk or whatever... a C chord is a C chord, etc. In terms of who is/was a more influential guitarist, nobody would 'beat' Hendrix (I know this is not a football match but...). However, in terms of who plays/played guitar better, there are/were many people who 'beat' him by a country mile, as well as many people who're vastly inferior (Page included). > Even if you recognise that a player is pretty ordinary, you should always acknowledge their importance to the evolution of the craft you are involved with. Another angle: when cars were invented, somebody had to be the first to be run over by a car. Does it mean the driver 'invented' traffic-related deaths? Does it mean that without him or her there would be no car accidents? Same case here: Hendrix may have been the first to (successfully) do this and that, but it doesn't mean without him those things wouldn't exist. His importance as a cultural icon, as an idol and as a person whose art marked generations is undeniable. But music had already evolved way past his own limits... and, again, music is music, regardless of genre or even instrument (at the end of the day, it's not about playing guitar, but about playing music through the guitar, which is a concept very few people mastered, and Hendrix was indeed one of them - that, IMO, is his most important contribution, and a pretty hard one to match). > You can't look at human evolution and say "australopithecus was fucking unnecessary". Sure. But it'd also be ridiculous to think 'Australopithecus was taller than modern basketball players' or 'Australopithecus could master more languages than modern polyglots'. > It had to exist, so that the stuff that followed could happen. See the car accident example. > Mmm, it's not totally unrelated. Sure, but only in certain cases... I mean, if a score has the guitar playing an ostinato E on the sixth string for 60 minutes, even if the guitarist is a virtuoso, there's not much chance to prove it. > For me the Miracle is still worth a listen for the performances - despite the songs themselves. Brian's guitar is one of the few reasons I can stomach the lesser tracks on there (and Freddie, who was sounding excellent). I still hate songs like Rain Must Fall, but I think the guitar work there is extremely well-done. > Hendrix died at 26 and look at the Impact he made. Imagine if he lived until he was 60? We'll never know. Maybe he'd be even more famous, maybe not... that's a pointless argument IMO. > I do agree brian was a better play than page, but trying too argue that point with most rock fans is an uphill battle. And? and?....and most consider page better. outside of queenzone that is. |
Amazon 01.01.2010 05:54 |
Sebastian wrote: " "it annoys me that people here are always pissing on Page." It's freedom of speech. Page's one of those artists who tends to have 49.5% of the people yelling 'you suck', and 49.5% saying 'you're a god, please fuck me!'. I don't personally agree with either but I totally respect those who feel strongly about their take on him." Did I ever question people's freedom of speech? No, I said that this constant pissing upon Page annoys me. What is wrong with that? Just because people have the right to say something, doesn't mean I don't have the right to say that it annoys me. " "he wasn't always as creative as Brian" TBH, Brian wasn't always as creative as Brian either." That doesn't make much sense. Unless you're saying that Brian wasn't always extremely creative. Which is true, but generally speaking, I think he was more creative than Page (Good Company for example). " "but he was a damn fine guitarist (IMO easily among the very greatest of all time)" IMO, not even sort of close to 'the very greatest of all time'. Certainly a good one, especially on acoustic, but there are loads and loads and loads of guitarists who, while being loads and loads and loads of times less influential and less famous, are/were way better." Sorry, I don't agree. I regard Page as among the ten greatest guitarists of all time. Easily. You say that there are loads and loads and loads of guitarists who are/were way better (which I think is absurd) but are nowhere near famous and influential, well, that's the same with everything. Was Pele the single greatest soccer player of all time? Who knows? But he was certainly the greatest professional soccer player of all time; yes, there might be a soccer player somewhere who's better but who never followed through with his career and decided to do something else, but we'll never know. Similarly, there might be some unrecorded guitarists out there who are better than Page. We will never know for sure. I will say this; IMO Page was among the ten greatest recorded guitarists of all time. " "It seems to me that it has become almost the hip thing to diss guitarists like him and Hendrix." While the actual Hendrix wasn't even sort of close to the mythical one, he certainly played a hell of a lot better than Page." He was superior, yes, but Page was also capable of absolute brilliance (Stairway to Heaven & Dazed and Confused for example ). " "I don't like it at all, especially since Brian was influenced by Hendrix, and probably by Page as well." In fact he was. So? " My point was that since people on this site love Brian, I don't understand why they constantly diss guitarists who influenced Brian. "Whoever wants to pan them, has the right to do so" Did I ever say that they didn't have the right to do so? Again, just because you have the right to say something, does NOT mean I don't have the right to be annoyed by it. "because the fact of the matter is they were both grossly overrated." No, according to you, they were both grossly overrated. There's no fact about it. Personally, I regard Hendrix to be the single greatest guitarist of all time and I consider Page to have been among the ten best in history. "Now, does it mean they suck? No. But of course, anybody who wants to say Dr May's way better than both is entitled to." You've made this into a freedom of speech issue, and it was never one. |
Holly2003 01.01.2010 06:07 |
I also love the guitar melodies in a lot of Brian's work, particularly the delays in White man, and also that his harmonies weren't parallel i.e. they 'fed' off or complimented eachother. Great examples include Good Company, All Dead, All Dead, and Sail Away Sweet Sister. Brian's guitar work often made average songs into good ones, and good ones, into great. People who see Fred as Queen often don't appreciate this. |
whynot 01.01.2010 09:16 |
Doesn't make sense to compare guitarists. You can''t compare Brian May, Jimmy Page, Tommy Emmanuel, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, Ry Cooder etc. All of them are great players and one isn't "better" then the other, just different. Brian May is a great player. His best work (for me) is without doubt "Brighton Rock". |
john bodega 01.01.2010 09:26 |
"That's quite oversimplifying it (I know - or hope* - you don't mean 'you' as in 'me' or anybody else in particular), since you (and I mean you, Zeb) can't possibly know if everybody who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) sounds like the last instructional video they watched. AAMOF, you (you, Zeb) can't even know if a person who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) has watched instructional videos." *Yeah I screwed that bit up. I meant "you" as in "ya". Actually I ought to have said "one", haha. I'll cop that it's an over-simplification, but it isn't a statement without merit. Granted, the internet is the very last place you want to go for a guaranteed insightful conversation on anything, but with the amount of comments I get from Youtube (where you can easily check on someone's favourites and see what kind of videos they're watching) it's actually not all that uncommon to see instructional stuff there ... I didn't explain that very well. Point being, there are plenty of instances where I could (and HAVE) been able to categorically see that x person complaining about y musician has watched a lot of instructional videos (and left them conveniently in their Youtube favourites/played very recognisable licks that we've all seen Paul Gilbert play) and is a bedroom guitarist who probably shouldn't be calling various elements of the craft into question .... and I say this as someone who still does a lot of playing at home. Ha-ha. "The thing is, IMO, Hendrix wasn't a part of guitar evolution per se: absolutely every chord he played (including the wrongly-called Hendrix chord), every 'trick' he popularised, even the trend of playing a national anthem... all those things were pre-existing. And even before he was born, there already were guitar players who performed music much more elaborate than anything he did in his life (of course, not in rock, but at the end of the day it's music)." I invented string skipping. Well no - I didn't invent it - I thought it up independently and then saw someone else do it one day on Youtube. (true story, you should've seen my annoyed reaction...) I'm not the one who'll get credit for it though, because I wasn't the first (or the best). But someone like Page or Hendrix, who becomes the mass communicator for a technique or discipline or style, cannot be trashed in any reasonable fashion because their influence is a hard fact, and their quality is purely subjective. One has to accept that people like them, whether one thinks they're any good or not. I mean I personally feel that you can't really hold up one player and say "THAT'S where this started". For me you can't talk about Hendrix without mentioning his influences, his contemporaries, and people who have been spurred on by his music. It's almost galling to me to have a Hendrix discussion without bringing up Chuck Berry or Buddy Guy. I find it more fun to see the connections between styles, because as Brian says, you can't exist in a vacuum. "But purely speaking in terms of music, he invented nothing." But with music being more than just the written note (as it has been ever since people started playing it), it's not just about music, it's about coming up with new sounds ... Hendrix didn't invent any chords that hadn't been played before but he played them in his own way, through equipment that was treated maybe a little differently, to arrive at a different kind of sound. I'm not trying to edify him; I'm of the opinion that with the musical trends of the day, someone else would've eventually filled that space. "Another angle: when cars were invented, somebody had to be the first to be run over by a car." I believe I've more or less addressed this already. One would be ludicrous to try and say that without a certain person, given things would not have taken place. They'd be irrefutably different, but the overall course of things would not change ... amps were getting bigger, players were bouncing off each other and giving older disciplines a new approach... if it wasn't Hendrix, someone else would've been there. But is it a discussion about the evolution of music, or the possibilities of "what might have been"? I was trying to address the former, no matter how much fun it might be to muck about with the latter! "Sure. But it'd also be ridiculous to think 'Australopithecus was taller than modern basketball players' or 'Australopithecus could master more languages than modern polyglots'." But that wasn't what I was implying. Not that you were .... implying that I was implying that .... (I want this sentence to end). I am not trying to say Hendrix was something that he was not (that's for others to do). I think of it like this. Jesse Owens would not even qualify in his event if he had been brought forward in time to the 2008 Olympics, but his name is worth remembering for a reason - in his day, he was the state of the art, and other people who took it up were following his example. There would be people who owed their careers to him simply because he inspired them - it's a tenuous connection but role models do exist and they have a tangible effect on people. I don't think track and field is comparable to music because it's simply nowhere near as diverse, of course. Hehe. |
john bodega 01.01.2010 09:38 |
whynot wrote: Doesn't make sense to compare guitarists.I think it makes perfect sense. I don't think it makes any sense to rubbish one to make another sound better, though. It IS possible to make intelligent comparisons between musicians. Although it's not as common as I'd like. |
cacatua 01.01.2010 09:39 |
I certainly can't claim to be an expert on guitarists (of which there seem to be plenty here already), but getting past Freddie (sorry Fred), Brian's guitar IS the immediately recognizeable sound of Queen. I didn't call Brian a craftsman casually. That is how I see him, as a meticulous craftsman. I see Good Company as an excellent example of that sort of creativity. Others will value a player who just jumps in and lets it all hang out. I suppose that the best of all possible worlds is one who lies somewhere between the two. It doesn't all boil down to taste, but if you have ever been to, say a horse show, or the like, then you soon learn that there are breed standards that apply, but even those are often trumped by the judge's personal taste. The same with critics, experts, and pretty much all of the rest of us. |
cacatua 01.01.2010 10:38 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "That's quite oversimplifying it (I know - or hope* - you don't mean 'you' as in 'me' or anybody else in particular), since you (and I mean you, Zeb) can't possibly know if everybody who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) sounds like the last instructional video they watched. AAMOF, you (you, Zeb) can't even know if a person who criticises Hendrix (or anybody else for that matter) has watched instructional videos." *Yeah I screwed that bit up. I meant "you" as in "ya". Actually I ought to have said "one", haha. I'll cop that it's an over-simplification, but it isn't a statement without merit. Granted, the internet is the very last place you want to go for a guaranteed insightful conversation on anything, but with the amount of comments I get from Youtube (where you can easily check on someone's favourites and see what kind of videos they're watching) it's actually not all that uncommon to see instructional stuff there ... I didn't explain that very well. Point being, there are plenty of instances where I could (and HAVE) been able to categorically see that x person complaining about y musician has watched a lot of instructional videos (and left them conveniently in their Youtube favourites/played very recognisable licks that we've all seen Paul Gilbert play) and is a bedroom guitarist who probably shouldn't be calling various elements of the craft into question .... and I say this as someone who still does a lot of playing at home. Ha-ha. "The thing is, IMO, Hendrix wasn't a part of guitar evolution per se: absolutely every chord he played (including the wrongly-called Hendrix chord), every 'trick' he popularised, even the trend of playing a national anthem... all those things were pre-existing. And even before he was born, there already were guitar players who performed music much more elaborate than anything he did in his life (of course, not in rock, but at the end of the day it's music)." I invented string skipping. Well no - I didn't invent it - I thought it up independently and then saw someone else do it one day on Youtube. (true story, you should've seen my annoyed reaction...) I'm not the one who'll get credit for it though, because I wasn't the first (or the best). But someone like Page or Hendrix, who becomes the mass communicator for a technique or discipline or style, cannot be trashed in any reasonable fashion because their influence is a hard fact, and their quality is purely subjective. One has to accept that people like them, whether one thinks they're any good or not. I mean I personally feel that you can't really hold up one player and say "THAT'S where this started". For me you can't talk about Hendrix without mentioning his influences, his contemporaries, and people who have been spurred on by his music. It's almost galling to me to have a Hendrix discussion without bringing up Chuck Berry or Buddy Guy. I find it more fun to see the connections between styles, because as Brian says, you can't exist in a vacuum. "But purely speaking in terms of music, he invented nothing." But with music being more than just the written note (as it has been ever since people started playing it), it's not just about music, it's about coming up with new sounds ... Hendrix didn't invent any chords that hadn't been played before but he played them in his own way, through equipment that was treated maybe a little differently, to arrive at a different kind of sound. I'm not trying to edify him; I'm of the opinion that with the musical trends of the day, someone else would've eventually filled that space. "Another angle: when cars were invented, somebody had to be the first to be run over by a car." I believe I've more or less addressed this already. One would be ludicrous to try and say that without a certain person, given things would not have taken place. They'd be irrefutably different, but the overall course of things would not change ... amps were getting bigger, players were bouncing off each other and giving older disciplines a new approach... if it wasn't Hendrix, someone else would've been there. But is it a discussion about the evolution of music, or the possibilities of "what might have been"? I was trying to address the former, no matter how much fun it might be to muck about with the latter! "Sure. But it'd also be ridiculous to think 'Australopithecus was taller than modern basketball players' or 'Australopithecus could master more languages than modern polyglots'." But that wasn't what I was implying. Not that you were .... implying that I was implying that .... (I want this sentence to end). I am not trying to say Hendrix was something that he was not (that's for others to do). I think of it like this. Jesse Owens would not even qualify in his event if he had been brought forward in time to the 2008 Olympics, but his name is worth remembering for a reason - in his day, he was the state of the art, and other people who took it up were following his example. There would be people who owed their careers to him simply because he inspired them - it's a tenuous connection but role models do exist and they have a tangible effect on people. I don't think track and field is comparable to music because it's simply nowhere near as diverse, of course. Hehe. All very well said, Z! |
Sebastian 01.01.2010 12:25 |
> and?....and most consider page better. outside of queenzone that is. And? Most people considered the earth to be flat too. > I said that this constant pissing upon Page annoys me. But by giving it more importance than it deserves you're just magnifying the problem. > doesn't mean I don't have the right to say that it annoys me. You're right about that. > Unless you're saying that Brian wasn't always extremely creative. Which is true, but generally speaking, I think he was more creative than Page (Good Company for$ example). True. > Similarly, there might be some unrecorded guitarists out there who are better than Page. We will never know for sure. There are many recorded guitarists who, without being even close to Page's impact or influence, play much better. > I will say this; IMO Page was among the ten greatest recorded guitarists of all time. Julian Bream, John Williams, Paco de Lucia, John Dearman, Peo Kingren, Matthew Greif, William Kanengiser, Django Reinhart, Paco de Lucia, Andrew York... ten already... they're all recorded and they all play a hell of a lot better, even if none of them has had Page's influence. In terms of influence and impact, there are very few guitarists who top Page (Hendrix is one of the, BTW). In terms of playing better (technique, thoroughness, cleanness), there are many guitarists who top Page (Hendrix among them as well). > He was superior, yes, but Page was also capable of absolute brilliance (Stairway to Heaven & Dazed and Confused for example ). Both wonderful songs. As a songwriter, I take Page over Hendrix. But as guitarist (i.e. plucking the strings with one's fingers, regardless of how influential or famous one is, or how good one is in other departments such as singing or songwriting), Hendrix was way better. It doesn't mean Page is bad... a 6 ft tall person isn't short or a dwarf, but he or she isn't even close to being the tallest person in the world. > My point was that since people on this site love Brian, I don't understand why they constantly diss guitarists who influenced Brian. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Just because a person influenced another doesn't make them perfect. Sure, Page was not crap, but he's certainly way less skilled than what the 'legend' dictates. Same for Hendrix. > Doesn't make sense to compare guitarists. You can''t compare Brian May, Jimmy Page, Tommy Emmanuel, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, Ry Cooder etc. All of them are great players and one isn't "better" then the other, just different. Of course you can: there are similar and different aspects. And of course, for certain extent, you can compare technique, and establish who is (technically) better. There's a more ambiguous dimension to it, which is completely subjective, and according to it if I think John Lennon's a better bass-player than Stu Hamm I'm entitled to. But on what can actually be measured (which is the part I'm talking about), Stu's way better than Lennon as a bassplayer, even if the latter was of course a much better composer and cultural icon. > Point being, there are plenty of instances where I could (and HAVE) been able to categorically see that x person complaining about y musician has watched a lot of instructional videos (and left them conveniently in their Youtube favourites/played very recognisable licks that we've all seen Paul Gilbert play) and is a bedroom guitarist who probably shouldn't be calling various elements of the craft into question .... and I say this as someone who still does a lot of playing at home. Ha-ha. Yes, but I don't think only people who are recorded and officially-released guitarists should have the right to criticise guitarists. Otherwise, only presidents could vote, only newspaper owners could say 'that tabloid sucks', etc. > But someone like Page or Hendrix, who becomes the mass communicator for a technique or discipline or style, cannot be trashed in any reasonable fashion because their influence is a hard fact, and their quality is purely subjective. One has to accept that people like them, whether one thinks they're any good or not. Sure, but one also has to accept that some people don't like them. Not everybody who admires Page is a narrow-minded hippie who's easily wowed by a sloppy plagiarised lick, and not everybody who pans him is a narrow-minded conceited snob who only accepts people playing Paganini variations. > Hendrix didn't invent any chords that hadn't been played before but he played them in his own way, through equipment that was treated maybe a little differently, to arrive at a different kind of sound. That's very true and that's indeed an enormous contribution he made. > But is it a discussion about the evolution of music, or the possibilities of "what might have been"? Music already had evolved long before Hendrix was born. He may have contributed to the evolution of the massification of music for new generations, the evolution of using the electric guitar as the main instrument, the evolution of using the studio to create new things that didn't happen in a concert situation... all those things are very important and he of course deserves credit for that. But it doesn't mean guitar wouldn't exist without him. Or guitar music. > I think of it like this. Jesse Owens would not even qualify in his event if he had been brought forward in time to the 2008 Olympics, but his name is worth remembering for a reason - in his day, he was the state of the art, and other people who took it up were following his example. True. So... if we speak about the most influential athletes, Owens is way up there. If we speak about the best athletes ever, he's not. Two different matters. > I don't think track and field is comparable to music because it's simply nowhere near as diverse, of course. Hehe. Actually, it is. > It IS possible to make intelligent comparisons between musicians. Although it's not as common as I'd like. I think it's more common to find unicorns. |
Levon Thyme 01.01.2010 17:14 |
I agree with Serry and Cacatua. All of us have tried to convince non-Queen fans and even non-rock fans that there's something incredible about this band. I love the heavy guitar work, "Dead On Time", "The Prophet's Song" "Ogre Battle" etc.. but when I want to demonstrate to someone that this guitar man is a master I play them the end of "Good Company." He created a dixieland jazz band (or trad jazz) with guitars and nothing else. You can hear the trombone sliding up, you can hear the clarinet trills, you can hear it all, yet none of it is there. Other guitarists may be more skilled at other things, but no guitarist can do that! Maybe none would want to, I could understand that, but Brian May did want to create it and we still want to hear it! Leave the album playing and they get to hear "God Save The Queen"..no other guitarist could do that either! |
Makka 02.01.2010 00:11 |
I love heaps of Brian's early work. But emotion is also a big thing in guitar playing and for the the guitar parts in All Dead All Dead and These Are The Days Of Our Lives you can not beat for the emotion he captures. |
Sheer Brass Neck 02.01.2010 20:49 |
Intelligent discussion, and plenty of it on QZ? There's hope for this place yet. Lots of good points, for Seb re: 10 better guitarists, if your first connection with music was hearing a heavy Page riff, it will stay with you forever. Yngwie Malmsteen is a "better" (faster, technically superior) guitarist than Brain will ever be. But hearing the first raked note of the solo in "Save Me" contains more emotion than th eentire Manglstein catalogue. How music touches us influences our "favourite" and "best" musician/guitarist choices. |
Sebastian 02.01.2010 21:56 |
There's a lot of emotion in Malmsteen, and there's a lot of technique in May. Those things do coexist. |
john bodega 02.01.2010 23:13 |
Those things "can" coexist. I think it's like what you said about the unicorn. |
thomasquinn 32989 03.01.2010 11:26 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Those things "can" coexist. I think it's like what you said about the unicorn. They often do. However, it's not always easy to distinguish between the two, regardless even of your position as either listener or performer. Emotion tends to start in the same gray area where technique becomes instinctive. |
CGtteir 03.01.2010 12:04 |
I have no idea. Probably depends on my mood. Today is Queen I, tomorrow Innuendo. |
GratefulFan 03.01.2010 12:43 |
Brian noted the riff on 'Tie Your Mother Down' as the one he was personally most proud of. And I think it is the best there is among songs that are all about that classic, hard driving, forward charging, riff driven guitar rock. The song may have some equals, but there are none better IMO. |
The Real Wizard 03.01.2010 13:09 |
mike hunt wrote: and most consider page better. outside of queenzone that is. That's because most people equate 'faster' and 'flashier' with 'better'. Brian May is under-appreciated by most because his sense of genius isn't as easily accessible as Page's. Page is the better improviser, but Brian is the better orchestrator. Brian created his own guitar and tone, but Page was a groundbreaking producer. Brian created Good Company and Page created Kashmir. There's really no point in comparing these guys. They have both contributed ever so much to the evolution of rock music, and we should just leave it at that. Nice to see Tommy Emmanuel mentioned above !! I saw him last year, and he is an absolute god. |
Sebastian 03.01.2010 23:50 |
> That's because most people equate 'faster' and 'flashier' with 'better'. If that were the case, neither Page nor Hendrix would be famous at all. There are people who equate 'faster' and 'flashier' with better, but they're not even sort of close to 'most'. > Brian May is under-appreciated by most because his sense of genius isn't as easily accessible as Page's. I disagree. Loads of Brian's work is accessible. It hasn't been promoted too much, which is something completely different. > Page is the better improviser, but Brian is the better orchestrator. IMO, the quality of a guitarist as guitarist is different to his skills as songwriter. Same for singers, bassists, drummers, pianists, etc. At the end of the day, the better guitarist is the one who plays guitar better, regardless of how inventive the parts are. The better arranger is the one who scores better bits (and remember that May wasn't always the one who wrote what he played, same with the others). And I don't think Page's a better improviser... he's more famous for it, but that's not the same. And by the way, Page's not faster than the Dr. > Brian created his own guitar and tone No, he didn't: he and his father did. > but Page was a groundbreaking producer. So is Brian, and a pretty good one. Not as famous but, again, not the same thing. > Brian created Good Company and Page created Kashmir. That's a good proof of their abilities as songwriters (both excellent), but not as guitarists per se. > There's really no point in comparing these guys. Actually, there is. By comparing these guys (and others) one can learn a lot about music, technique, what to do, what not to do, people who're well-acquainted with May may (no pun intended) get to know Page better and vice-versa. There's really no point in having aggressive 'you don't know shit - you're a wanker because you like that music - you should be killed' rows (about Page or about anything else for that matter), but there is a lot of good in having healthy discussions about whatever this board (or any other for that matter) may bring up. > They have both contributed ever so much to the evolution of rock music, and we should just leave it at that. No, we 'should' leave it at wherever we want to. Some people will compare them, and those who don't want to should leave it at that and let others do as they please. |
mike hunt 04.01.2010 02:31 |
I think brian is becoming more aprreciated as time goes by. He'll never be the sexy name that eddie van halen is, but for people who know their music he'll always be respected. Afterall, who was one of eddie's influences?....Of course i think brian was also the better player. I Think this is mostly opinions anyway. Everyone has a different opinion about these things. |
Ziggy_SD 04.01.2010 07:12 |
Seems like we're flogging a dead horse here, no? |
lalaalalaa 04.01.2010 07:53 |
Get Down Make Love has some intricate guitarwork. Anyone agree? |
Wiley 04.01.2010 12:31 |
Ok, now the only thing that this thread needs is a post by Soapy Gonad and something about Treasure Moment. hehe :) Very interesting discussion here. I like how Seb tends to over analyze everything; it certainly gives everyone else another perspective. Keep it up guys! I can see that it's difficult for most of us to be objective about something like music. I guess nobody really can accomplish this up to 100%. I recall a phrase I read somewhere: "If I were an object I'd be objective, but since I'm a subject (a person), I'm subjective" (translated from spanish). It's very difficult to avoid concepts like impact in pop culture or personal preference from a "Best Guitarist" discussion, however formal you want to sound. Even if we came up with a mathematic method using fuzzy logic and variable weights (ponderation) to determine who the "Best _____" is, there is still subjectivity as to what variables or indicators are used or how to calculate the final outcome. In the end, we would surely have 200 categories and -guess what?- NONE of our favorite artists would be #1 !! We would find out that "that finnish guy from YouTube" is the fastest guitar player because he managed to play a 1 second solo with 1/256th notes (Sorry, Satriani, Vai, Malmsteem), that the loudest guitarist is in a garage band who managed to get a 250 dB power chord for a Guinness Record (No luck, Pete Townsend), etc., etc., etc. More importantly, I don't always carry a whiteboard with me so I can explain when someone asks me who I consider to be the best guitarist... :P |
cacatua 04.01.2010 18:02 |
Eeeuuuwwwwwwww - I'm allergic to math. If the discussion is degenerating into that area then I'm outta here! |
thomasquinn 32989 05.01.2010 07:24 |
Sebastian: You can't be serious when you say that Page was not a better improviser than May. I have tremendous respect for May as a composer, arranger and even performer, but there is no denying that he had and has a morbid fear of improvisation, to which the conversation he had with Zappa alone would testify: "I was fortunate enough to meet Frank Zappa, a truly great rock musician, and a very unorthodox and innovative creator. He was already very ill when I met him (I was working with his son in L.A. ) I told him I admired his skill and courage in improvising so much in his music, live in front of large audiences. He said, "Courage? - What do you mean?! " I said that I was always very aware of the possibilities of making mistakes. He replied, "How can you make a mistake? It is your solo, your guitar, and you are playing a piece of your own music. Who could possibly tell you you are making a mistake?!! " |
john bodega 05.01.2010 09:03 |
I'm not sure how Page being more willing to improvise (but frequently playing complete crap in doing so, ) and Brian sticking to the programme, are two approaches that can be readily measured against each other? What are the criteria? Listenability? Bravery?? |
cacatua 05.01.2010 09:24 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: Sebastian: You can't be serious when you say that Page was not a better improviser than May. I have tremendous respect for May as a composer, arranger and even performer, but there is no denying that he had and has a morbid fear of improvisation, to which the conversation he had with Zappa alone would testify: "I was fortunate enough to meet Frank Zappa, a truly great rock musician, and a very unorthodox and innovative creator. He was already very ill when I met him (I was working with his son in L.A. ) I told him I admired his skill and courage in improvising so much in his music, live in front of large audiences. He said, "Courage? - What do you mean?! " I said that I was always very aware of the possibilities of making mistakes. He replied, "How can you make a mistake? It is your solo, your guitar, and you are playing a piece of your own music. Who could possibly tell you you are making a mistake?!! " I'm sure that there a plenty of people here who WOULD tell Brian if he had made a mistake! |
Wiley 05.01.2010 11:49 |
Zebonka12 wrote:
I'm not sure how Page being more willing to improvise (but frequently playing complete crap in doing so, ) and Brian sticking to the programme, are two approaches that can be readily measured against each other?
What are the criteria? Listenability? Bravery??
That was part of my point in my nerdy post above: Every criteria is always subject to debate. At one point, someone has to decide a) what to measure, b) how to measure it, c) how to add things up and come up with an final "score". If we formed a "World Guitarist Association" and spent millions in coming up with a unified criteria to rate the "Best" guitarist out there, we would surely take into account every single aspect of guitar playing that you can think of: Technique (Rythm, tapping, soloing, etc), Improvisation chops, "Feel", compositional skills, bravery, listenability, blah blah blah. In the end SOMEONE would have to take those numbers and add them up in a way that yields a score for Brian May, Hendrix, Clapton, Gilmour, etc., and that way you'd rank them, The idea is ridiculous but that's my point. You can't do that to music! The safest approach would be to avoid using absolutes like "Best" and use words like "My Favorite" instead, but it's not necessarily how people talk. At the risk of pulling a Sebastian... Can we OBJECTIVELY conclude that a given guitar player is THE FASTEST? Yes. Just measure how many notes he can play per measure (even if it sounds like crap). Can we OBJECTIVELY conclude that a given guitar player is THE BEST? No. Can we DISCUSS about who WE SUBJECTIVELY THINK IS THE BEST? Of course we can! :D |
The Real Wizard 05.01.2010 12:26 |
Zebonka12 wrote: I'm not sure how Page being more willing to improvise (but frequently playing complete crap in doing so, ) and Brian sticking to the programme, are two approaches that can be readily measured against each other? What are the criteria? Listenability? Bravery?? Fair point to raise. While Page often played crap, at other times it was complete brilliance. Listen to any show from Europe 1973 to hear him and the rest of Led Zeppelin at the peak of their powers. In that general period of 71 to 73 (i.e. before the drugs took over), he played cleanly and was a superb improviser, never playing the solo in any song the same way twice... minus perhaps What Is And What Should Never Be. After that, he was hit and miss... mostly miss until the 90s. Queen and Led Zeppelin had two completely different approaches to playing live. While Queen's rehearsing to perfection was ultimately the safer route, the more daring Zeppelin route had its downfalls as well as its highs that, in my opinion, rate higher than any kind of rehearsed perfection. Spontaneity is the spice of life, and this certainly applies to bands taking risks at rock concerts. |
dragon-fly 05.01.2010 13:41 |
It's quite amusing how topic "Best guitar work by Brian May" turned to "Who is better guitar player: Jimmy Page or Brian May". :) As for comparison: I guess you need to make a list of criteria by which you define the best guitarist (technique, creative approach, innovations etc etc); but even so- VERY important is human factor (drugs, injuries, personal problems etc, which affect playing). Well.... 'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.... As for the May's best works: I'm not going to make a list now, but I do want to mention the intro to A Day At The Races- just a little gem. |
Sebastian 05.01.2010 13:55 |
> I think brian is becoming more aprreciated as time goes by. Indeed. > Afterall, who was one of eddie's influences? Several people. > You can't be serious when you say that Page was not a better improviser than May. Of course I can, watch me: (Seb puts serious face): Page is not a better improviser than May. > I have tremendous respect for May as a composer, arranger and even performer, but there is no denying that he had and has a morbid fear of improvisation Even with a 'morbid fear' (which is quite an exaggeration IMO), he did change several solos (even if in little details) and improvised in several songs and jams. The posted quote about Zappa demonstrates Bri admired how FZ improvised SO MUCH in his music, not that he improvised AT ALL. > I'm not sure how Page being more willing to improvise (but frequently playing complete crap in doing so, ) and Brian sticking to the programme But the programme did have some improvised bits. Listen to the Bo Rhap solo or to the ornaments at the end of Best Friend: different every night, even if in subtle ways. And that IS improvisation. > What are the criteria? Listenability? Bravery?? Both of them subjective BTW... > The idea is ridiculous but that's my point. You can't do that to music! Of course you can. And it'd be quite interesting to do, actually. Would it change the way millions of people see music? No. But it's a worthwhile project in its own way. Check my post about live stats. Does it mathematically prove that 'Opera' tour was better than 'Magic'? Of course not. But it does prove it featured more concerts (and average), which is (for some people at least) an interesting fact to know. If I read a thorough research that demonstrates Vai's records are averagely faster than Satch's (for instance), that won't make me appreciate either one any less. But it's good to know anyway. It's like geography: Canada IS larger than the States; does it mean it's better? safer? holier? No, of course not. But... it's good to know anyway. Which prompts me to ask, again: is Page really faster than Dr Wig? I really don't think so, but then again, I haven't listened to Jimmy's post-Zep works, so I don't know if he ever improved on his speed or not. > Can we OBJECTIVELY conclude that a given guitar player is THE FASTEST? Yes. Actually, we can't, unless we get them in a room and ask them to play the fastest they possibly can (with vices to measure muscular activity and simultaneous 3D CAT scans to analyse them neurologically) and then compare. There are several variables anyway: * The part they're playing: doing an ascending diatonic, chromatic or pentatonic scale at super-speed may be way easier than doing one with string skipping or double-stops. For some people, it's easier to go upwards, for others it's easier to go downwards, and so on. * Special techniques and devices - slides, tremolo, etc. * Fret span, string gauge, scalloped or flat neck, etc... they all have an effect on the final result. To have accurate results we'd have to provide both guitarists with the same instrument, set-up, strings, pick (if they use it - some people play faster without it, etc) and make them play the same part (which may be in either one's home-style but not the other's, in which case the result is compromised), etc. * If we take all recorded parts by a guitarist and establish the fastest of them all, it still doesn't mean that person can't play any faster than that. It's the same as with vocal ranges. > Can we OBJECTIVELY conclude that a given guitar player is THE BEST? No. It actually depends on the case. Can we objectively draw an absolute conclusion between Vai and Satriani? No. But between May and Mercury (as guitarists, that is)? Of course. > Can we DISCUSS about who WE SUBJECTIVELY THINK IS THE BEST? Of course we can! :D And it's fun to do! > While Queen's rehearsing to perfection was ultimately the safer route TBF, they did rehearse, but not to perfection and neither the musical side nor the visual one were coreographed. There were several changes and added bits in all instruments as well as vocal phrasing, they didn't carbon-copy an arrangement perpetually. > the more daring Zeppelin route had its downfalls as well as its highs that, in my opinion, rate higher than any kind of rehearsed perfection. That could be analysed/questioned more deeply from both sides, and it could raise a lot of interesting points for both band's music. > Spontaneity is the spice of life, and this certainly applies to bands taking risks at rock concerts. And Queen did take risks, and they were spontaneous. The subtle changes they added to each song in each concert is as much 'improvisation' as having a crappy 10-minute solo made from scratch. |
Wiley 05.01.2010 14:53 |
I agree with Sebastian in the part where it's fun to have these discussions and even get to the point to make this kind of analysis, if you have the time. Still, any type of analysis that you make will have a limited scope. You either consider "bravery", "ability to play fast scales" or "emotion" as a parameter or not, in this hypothetical "Investigation". In YOUR investigation you will have to decide to consider only studio performances, live or both. Even if you took on this huge challenge and came up with a result, you couldn't still claim it's definitive or it's 100% objective if the title is "Who is THE BEST _____?" Some things you can measure objectively, like speed or time (relativity aside, please), but in the way you make the conclusion of your work is that it stops being entirely objective. Either way, kids, this is not guaranteed to help you convince your friends that your favorite guitar player is "better" than theirs, unless the differences are glaringly obvious (Brian May vs. Me). :P |
Matias Merçeauroix 07.01.2010 02:29 |
Best guitar work?? A Night at the Opera and A Day at the Races. BY FAR. The Miracle (and Innuendo, Back to the Light, MIH, etc) is greatly played but it's much much much more common, while his arrangements and playing on Opera and Races are totally groundbreaking. Absolutely amazing. Jimmy Page is the worst guitar player ever. |
dragon-fly 07.01.2010 08:59 |
Funky Horsie wrote: Jimmy Page is the worst guitar player ever. You may not like Jimmy Page- and that's your right. But if you think that Led Zeppelin became a popular band without his skills in playing guitar- you are very naive. |
Matias Merçeauroix 07.01.2010 11:58 |
I don't know anybody besides him who's been playing the same primitive crap for 50 years and still can't get it right. If you know someone worse, please let me now. Page is seriously the worst player ever. |
mike hunt 07.01.2010 12:00 |
Funky Horsie wrote: I don't know anybody besides him who's been playing the same primitive crap for 50 years and still can't get it right. If you know someone worse, please let me now. Page is seriously the worst player ever. and you're young and stupid!.....page is one of the biggest influences in rock history. |
Matias Merçeauroix 07.01.2010 13:19 |
Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!". But, you know, being influential is not necessarily a good thing. Besides, he does suck. So much, so hard. Poor guy, I really pity him. It must be awful to be ABSOLUTELY UNABLE to play your own songs, even when they're so simple and primitive as his songs. |
john bodega 07.01.2010 13:36 |
"But the programme did have some improvised bits. Listen to the Bo Rhap solo or to the ornaments at the end of Best Friend: different every night, even if in subtle ways. And that IS improvisation." I can't speak to your point on "You're My Best Friend" because I'm not really au fait with the live versions, but with Bohemian Rhapsody he's pretty much stuck to the same 'different' version since the mid 70's. It's almost like, shortly after recording the studio version, he arrived at a change in the melody that he liked better, and kept it forever after. *I am aware that the solo has shifted about subtly over the years, but the only major change that's in there, has been there for most of the song's existence in the live act. |
dragon-fly 07.01.2010 13:52 |
Funky Horsie wrote: I don't know anybody besides him who's been playing the same primitive crap for 50 years and still can't get it right. If you know someone worse, please let me now. Page is seriously the worst player ever. Well, I'd say easily- Slash. Maybe he is not the worst guitarist ever, but the most boring for sure IMHO. |
Holly2003 07.01.2010 14:28 |
Funky Horsie wrote: Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!". But, you know, being influential is not necessarily a good thing. Besides, he does suck. So much, so hard. Poor guy, I really pity him. It must be awful to be ABSOLUTELY UNABLE to play your own songs, even when they're so simple and primitive as his songs.Possibly you are a better technical guitarist than Page, but let's face it no one's heard of you, whereas Page was part of what was probably the most famous rock band in the world. People will be playing and listening to Page long after he, you and I are dead. Obviously Page made a connection with people, which is something so far you have failed to do (unless you are a ringer). So I doubt Page or anyone else will lose much sleep over your opinion. Sorry, don't mean to demean you, but that's the brutal truth. |
Matias Merçeauroix 07.01.2010 15:12 |
Holly2003 wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!". But, you know, being influential is not necessarily a good thing. Besides, he does suck. So much, so hard. Poor guy, I really pity him. It must be awful to be ABSOLUTELY UNABLE to play your own songs, even when they're so simple and primitive as his songs.Possibly you are a better technical guitarist than Page, but let's face it no one's heard of you, whereas Page was part of what was probably the most famous rock band in the world. People will be playing and listening to Page long after he, you and I are dead. Obviously Page made a connection with people, which is something so far you have failed to do (unless you are a ringer). So I doubt Page or anyone else will lose much sleep over your opinion. Sorry, don't mean to demean you, but that's the brutal truth. So your point is it doesn't matter if you FUCKING suck as long as you're famous or important? Good for Hitler! |
Amazon 07.01.2010 15:50 |
Funky Horsie wrote:Holly2003 wrote:So your point is it doesn't matter if you FUCKING suck as long as you're famous or important? Good for Hitler!Funky Horsie wrote: Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!". But, you know, being influential is not necessarily a good thing. Besides, he does suck. So much, so hard. Poor guy, I really pity him. It must be awful to be ABSOLUTELY UNABLE to play your own songs, even when they're so simple and primitive as his songs.Possibly you are a better technical guitarist than Page, but let's face it no one's heard of you, whereas Page was part of what was probably the most famous rock band in the world. People will be playing and listening to Page long after he, you and I are dead. Obviously Page made a connection with people, which is something so far you have failed to do (unless you are a ringer). So I doubt Page or anyone else will lose much sleep over your opinion. Sorry, don't mean to demean you, but that's the brutal truth. So you're comparing Page to Hitler? And you expect people to take anything you say seriously?! |
Holly2003 07.01.2010 15:59 |
Funky Horsie wrote:Holly2003 wrote:So your point is it doesn't matter if you FUCKING suck as long as you're famous or important? Good for Hitler!Funky Horsie wrote: Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!". But, you know, being influential is not necessarily a good thing. Besides, he does suck. So much, so hard. Poor guy, I really pity him. It must be awful to be ABSOLUTELY UNABLE to play your own songs, even when they're so simple and primitive as his songs.Possibly you are a better technical guitarist than Page, but let's face it no one's heard of you, whereas Page was part of what was probably the most famous rock band in the world. People will be playing and listening to Page long after he, you and I are dead. Obviously Page made a connection with people, which is something so far you have failed to do (unless you are a ringer). So I doubt Page or anyone else will lose much sleep over your opinion. Sorry, don't mean to demean you, but that's the brutal truth. Yeah that's what I said. How's the weather on planet nutjob? |
The Real Wizard 07.01.2010 16:17 |
Funky Horsie wrote: Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!". Great, you're spending your 20s learning how to play technically better than Page and whoever else. Page, on the other hand, spent his 20s writing music that would be revered and critically acclaimed generations later. He didn't give a shit about his technical ability, as that's not what Led Zeppelin was all about. Time well spent, huh? |
cacatua 07.01.2010 18:20 |
Sitting here in a blizzard in Iowa - great pissing match! ROFL :oD) ) ) ) ) ) |
Matias Merçeauroix 08.01.2010 01:05 |
I care about music, not about being praised by deaf people. I rather spend time practizing than writting shit and playing it awfully. Even if it makes history. Who cares? I don't care about being important, I care about making music! Your problem is that you care way too much about success. To you people, succeeding is becoming important. To me, succeeding is making music in the best way possible. |
john bodega 08.01.2010 02:32 |
But what the hell, music is out there to be enjoyed. Getting good at it and making people happy with your music are not mutually exclusive. Can't you do both? |
Matias Merçeauroix 08.01.2010 04:12 |
I don't think I can do any! But I do try. The point is Page sucks. He has always sucked. And he really makes me feel sad about that. It's heartbreaking to see him play, he just can't do it. Brian May, on the other hand, is a genius. |
Holly2003 08.01.2010 05:57 |
Funky Horsie wrote: I care about music, not about being praised by deaf people. I rather spend time practizing than writting shit and playing it awfully. Even if it makes history. Who cares? I don't care about being important, I care about making music! Your problem is that you care way too much about success. To you people, succeeding is becoming important. To me, succeeding is making music in the best way possible. "Who cares?" A bit ironic, given how desperately you are trying to convince us that Page sucks. How many times have you said it now? Odd behaviour for someone who doesn't care... |
Amazon 08.01.2010 06:51 |
Funky Horsie wrote: I care about music, not about being praised by deaf people. I rather spend time practizing than writting shit and playing it awfully. Even if it makes history. Who cares? I don't care about being important, I care about making music! Your problem is that you care way too much about success. To you people, succeeding is becoming important. To me, succeeding is making music in the best way possible. Tthe reason why people such as myself praise Page is not because he was successful. Success has nothing to do with it. It's because IMO Page created and executed some of the most exciting, most creative and darn brilliant guitar work of all time. The solo to Stairway to Heaven was IMO a work of genius, as was his work on Dazed and Confused, Whole Lotta Love, Kashmir etc... You say that he sucks? Well, okay, but then again you also compared him to Hitler, so why should anyone care what you think? |
Ziggy_SD 08.01.2010 09:09 |
This is the part where the forum mods woulda stepped in [img=/images/smiley/msn/tounge_smile.gif][/img] |
Matias Merçeauroix 08.01.2010 12:05 |
I'm not comparing Hitler to Page, I'm using your arguments against you. If you can't see the difference, it's not my problem. Steve Vai is God. |
Wiley 08.01.2010 16:27 |
Holly2003 wrote: "Who cares?" A bit ironic, given how desperately you are trying to convince us that Page sucks. How many times have you said it now? Odd behaviour for someone who doesn't care... That, my friend, is what trolls do... :) ... but I know Horsie has contributed positively to other threads so I wouldn't call him that. He also did some good old "Treasure Moment bashing" back on the day so he can't be all bad. I'm not a fan of Page or Led Zep by any means. I did buy a compilation of them like 10 years ago and their live DVD like 4 years ago. I don't think I've listened to them in its entirety but I can still appreciate some very cool tracks in there. I get the impression (from previous threads) that Horsie is very specific as to what he likes in guitar playing. A certain precision, 'attack' on the strings and timing. Not necessarily a 'shredder' type, but you get the idea. A more laid back and simplistic approach to guitar playing can also be appreciated, although I admit that hearing Brian's solos for The Cosmos Rocks for the first few times made me think he was being a bit lazy. Those solos eventually grew on me, specially Small and We Believe. |
Amazon 09.01.2010 12:06 |
Funky Horsie wrote: I'm not comparing Hitler to Page, I'm using your arguments against you. If you can't see the difference, it's not my problem. Steve Vai is God. You said that Page sucks even though he's famous and important and said 'good for Hitler.' You were comparing him to Hitler, and as such, I think all of your opinions on this topic are worthless. |
Matias Merçeauroix 09.01.2010 12:34 |
Amazon wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: I'm not comparing Hitler to Page, I'm using your arguments against you. If you can't see the difference, it's not my problem. Steve Vai is God.You said that Page sucks even though he's famous and important and said 'good for Hitler.' You were comparing him to Hitler, and as such, I think all of your opinions on this topic are worthless. I was replying to the guy who said that it didn't matter if he sucked because he was in one of the world's most important rock bands and he made a connection with people and blah blah. In that case, if he thinks it doesn't matter if you suck or if you do bad, it's only important if you're part of history... then good for Hitler! That's what I said. I didn't compare Page to Hitler in any way. THE MOAR YOU KNOW Learn to read, fella. |
john bodega 09.01.2010 15:03 |
See I love (some) Zeppelin, but even so this isn't a discussion that really bothers me that much. None of my favourite Zeppelin tunes are ever mentioned in the "Does Page suck" topics (No Quarter, Achilles Last Stand, Going to California, Carouselambra, All My Love, Wearing and Tearing...) and I couldn't really give a toss about most of the rest of their catalogue. People harp on about Stairway but it's bloody contrived and boring. Achilles Last Stand smokes it in every respect. Better performances on every front. Even Page manages to sound respectable (!) Anyway. I've got their DVD, and I know where to find Youtube - I've seen Page at his worst. If people judge him by his worst work then that's fine, but I have ears and I know he managed to stumble his way through a few good tunes (the ones I mentioned are fantastic, even if you're only in it for Jonesy, Bonzo and Plant). In this day and age it's no longer fashionable to be an "adequate" guitarist who does what the song calls for and no more, but the fact remains that on certain occasions he did the job. That is, before he got on the drugs and ruined his credibility. But as I may have said before, I don't give a toss about 'that' Page. I believe in selective hearing; if something stinks, just turn it off ... |
Holly2003 09.01.2010 15:08 |
Good website about guitar rock here: http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/ This is their view of Page, which is very fair (and doesn't therefore compare him to Hitler): http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/44 and this is what they have to say about Dr B. http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/36 |
cacatua 09.01.2010 17:00 |
Holly2003 wrote:
Good website about guitar rock here: http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/
This is their view of Page, which is very fair (and doesn't therefore compare him to Hitler): http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/44
and this is what they have to say about Dr B.
http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/36
I've only listened to the one about Brian so far on my break, and must admit that it was so fine that I almost feel guilty for having done so! (Bad, bad - Stepford, I know..........lowest form of life here) But thanks for the links! |
thomasquinn 32989 09.01.2010 17:30 |
Sir GH wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: Of course he is! He sure influenced me! When I listened to him, I thought "GOD, I BETTER PRACTICE HARD, I DON'T WANNA SOUND LIKE THAT!".Great, you're spending your 20s learning how to play technically better than Page and whoever else. Page, on the other hand, spent his 20s writing music that would be revered and critically acclaimed generations later. He didn't give a shit about his technical ability, as that's not what Led Zeppelin was all about. Time well spent, huh? I do hope you're not rejecting technical proficiency, which IMHO is still a vital ingredient for a great musician. |
Amazon 10.01.2010 09:40 |
Funky Horsie wrote:Amazon wrote:I was replying to the guy who said that it didn't matter if he sucked because he was in one of the world's most important rock bands and he made a connection with people and blah blah. In that case, if he thinks it doesn't matter if you suck or if you do bad, it's only important if you're part of history... then good for Hitler! That's what I said. I didn't compare Page to Hitler in any way. THE MOAR YOU KNOW Learn to read, fella.Funky Horsie wrote: I'm not comparing Hitler to Page, I'm using your arguments against you. If you can't see the difference, it's not my problem. Steve Vai is God.You said that Page sucks even though he's famous and important and said 'good for Hitler.' You were comparing him to Hitler, and as such, I think all of your opinions on this topic are worthless. This is the last I will say on this mattter. You DID compare Page to Hitler, and even if you didn't, why bring up Hitler? Surely you could have used someone other than a genocidal dictator in your analogy/comparison? Oh, and I hate to tell you, but I'm not a fella. |
john bodega 10.01.2010 11:34 |
In either case Hitler is a bad example. Hitler was a far better dictator than Page is a guitar player. |
Sebastian 10.01.2010 14:10 |
Zebonka12 wrote: In either case Hitler is a bad example. Hitler was a far better dictator than Page is a guitar player. Standing ovation! |
Wiley 10.01.2010 14:38 |
Zebonka12 wrote: In either case Hitler is a bad example. Hitler was a far better dictator than Page is a guitar player. Considering the twisted universe in which this thread seems to live in, this has to be the best post. It's like you lowered yourself to the other guy's level, kicked his ass and went back to your level untarnished. That shot was one in a million, kid! :) |
Matias Merçeauroix 10.01.2010 16:06 |
Zebonka12 wrote: In either case Hitler is a bad example. Hitler was a far better dictator than Page is a guitar player. Of course he was. I honestly thought about saying exactly that but considering how people started to cry as soon as I used Hitler as an example, I thought it wouldn't be a great idea if I said it. |
Sebastian 10.01.2010 17:35 |
Hitler was a genius. An evil genius (or an 'out of control' genius), but a genius nonetheless. Page is a person who plays guitar well, and became grossly overrated by the public. |
tcc 10.01.2010 20:22 |
Sebastian wrote: Hitler was a genius. An evil genius (or an 'out of control' genius), but a genius nonetheless. Page is a person who plays guitar well, and became grossly overrated by the public. Killing people is genius ? This topic is getting more and more weird. |
Sheer Brass Neck 10.01.2010 21:20 |
Sebastian wrote: Hitler was a genius. An evil genius (or an 'out of control' genius), but a genius nonetheless. Page is a person who plays guitar well, and became grossly overrated by the public.But the greatest evil genius ever? Compared to other dictators or tyrants? |
GratefulFan 10.01.2010 23:00 |
Jesus Christ. You're all arrested and charged under Godwin's Law. Bread and water and Air Supply for all of you. |
Matias Merçeauroix 10.01.2010 23:54 |
Sebastian wrote: Page is a person who plays guitar well No. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 01:30 |
tcc wrote:Sebastian wrote: Hitler was a genius. An evil genius (or an 'out of control' genius), but a genius nonetheless. Page is a person who plays guitar well, and became grossly overrated by the public.Killing people is genius ? This topic is getting more and more weird. Hitler didn't kill people. He ordered loads of killings, which is not the same thing. And loads of genocides and/or criminals are geniuses, even if what they do/did is wrong. That's got nothing to do with Page, unless of course you consider he's killed loads of music by playing it. |
john bodega 11.01.2010 04:29 |
I just don't see the fuss about Page, on either side. Blackmore is far more worth talking about (up until he got hijacked by that succubus). He's on another planet as far as playing guitar goes. |
Amazon 11.01.2010 04:47 |
Sebastian wrote:tcc wrote:Hitler didn't kill people. He ordered loads of killings, which is not the same thing. And loads of genocides and/or criminals are geniuses, even if what they do/did is wrong. That's got nothing to do with Page, unless of course you consider he's killed loads of music by playing it.Sebastian wrote: Hitler was a genius. An evil genius (or an 'out of control' genius), but a genius nonetheless. Page is a person who plays guitar well, and became grossly overrated by the public.Killing people is genius ? This topic is getting more and more weird. I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. Do you really think that someone has to press the trigger in order to kill someone? Hitler ordered the killings, and thanks to him, millions of people were murdered. Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic, but this is not the appropiate discussion in which to be pedantic. Hitler was a genocidal murderer. End of story. |
Amazon 11.01.2010 05:08 |
Zebonka12 wrote: People harp on about Stairway but it's bloody contrived and boring. Funny you say that. When I was younger, I didn't particularly like STH. I thought it was extremely overrated, and I've always much preferred Dazed & Confused (still do). However, a couple of months ago, I listened to STH for the first time in years, and I fell in love with it. I regard Page's solo as among the greatest solos of all time; exciting, aggressive and IMO the eptiome of genius! In fact, the latter part of STH (the solo onwards) constittutes IMO one of the finest hard rock songs of all time. BTW, STH is one of the few songs where I really love Plant's vocals. If people want to talk about someone who's famous and important, but overrated, I would suggest Robert Plant! |
john bodega 11.01.2010 07:02 |
Amazon wrote: If people want to talk about someone who's famous and important, but overrated, I would suggest Robert Plant!Good God no. But the Rolling Stones certainly qualify. |
Amazon 11.01.2010 10:36 |
Zebonka12 wrote:Amazon wrote: If people want to talk about someone who's famous and important, but overrated, I would suggest Robert Plant!"Good God no. But the Rolling Stones certainly qualify." Yeh, they do, but so does IMO Plant. An extremely talented vocalist, with incredible control and a fantastic high voice; I don't think he was quite as brilliant as many people make him out to be. For one thing, I think he was in many cases the weakst link in the group, and I think that songs like Kashmir could have been greatly improved if he wasn't singing like a little girl. Kashmir is a perfect example. Incredible instrumentation; but IMO Plant was far too delicate and so prevented the song from IMO becoming the absolute masterpiece it could have been. Rolling Stone Magazine's list of the 100 best vocalists has, if I'm not mistaken, Plant ahead of Jagger and Freddie among rock vocalists. Although Plant was great, there is no way I would put him above Freddie in any 'best of' list (I think he's about the same as Jagger). I would definitely describe him as overrated. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 13:51 |
> I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things. > Hitler was a genocidal murderer. And a way better (worse) one than Page as guitarist. > End of story. Not really... there are loads of things that haven't been cleared up about that era, loads of uncovered secrets, etc. Without them seeing the light, the 'end of story' is still light years away. Regarding Plant: I agree he's overrated, but IMO he's a far better vocalist than Page is a guitarist. And he comes off better when switching (i.e. Plant plays guitar way better than Jimmy sings). |
Holly2003 11.01.2010 14:18 |
Sebastian wrote: > I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things. Err.. no. In English, and I'm sure in other languages too, we do not speak literally all the time. It would be very odd if we did, and very boring and annoying. So when someone says "Hitler was a mass murderer" it is simply an information shortcut. The meaning is totally clear and does not have to be analysed to the point where everyone wants to commit suicide out of boredom. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic for an extreme example. |
john bodega 11.01.2010 14:44 |
Amazon wrote: I think that songs like Kashmir could have been greatly improved if he wasn't singing like a little girl. Kashmir is a perfect example. Incredible instrumentation; but IMO Plant was far too delicate and so prevented the song from IMO becoming the absolute masterpiece it could have been.It was already a masterpiece. If he'd been putting Heartbreaker style vocals on it, it would not have made any sense. It would be like Bonzo doubling the tempo or Page solo-ing during the lyrics. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 15:47 |
Holly2003 wrote:Sebastian wrote: > I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things.Err.. no. In English, and I'm sure in other languages too, we do not speak literally all the time. It would be very odd if we did, and very boring and annoying. So when someone says "Hitler was a mass murderer" it is simply an information shortcut. The meaning is totally clear and does not have to be analysed to the point where everyone wants to commit suicide out of boredom. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic for an extreme example. I didn't ask anybody to 'speak literally all the time'. I stated that Hitler didn't kill people per se, which is right. Absolutely nothing 'has to be analysed', but it can if a person (me, in this case) wants to. If you're bored with it, you can... wait for it... wait for it... not read! Have you tried that? PS: I know Mr Logic, I think he's great. |
Holly2003 11.01.2010 16:01 |
Sebastian wrote:Holly2003 wrote:I didn't ask anybody to 'speak literally all the time'. I stated that Hitler didn't kill people per se, which is right. Absolutely nothing 'has to be analysed', but it can if a person (me, in this case) wants to. If you're bored with it, you can... wait for it... wait for it... not read! Have you tried that? PS: I know Mr Logic, I think he's great.Sebastian wrote: > I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things.Err.. no. In English, and I'm sure in other languages too, we do not speak literally all the time. It would be very odd if we did, and very boring and annoying. So when someone says "Hitler was a mass murderer" it is simply an information shortcut. The meaning is totally clear and does not have to be analysed to the point where everyone wants to commit suicide out of boredom. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic for an extreme example. Not only are you pedantic, you also cannot be told anything by anyone. You refuse to learn from others, and that's the worst kind of bore. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 16:04 |
Holly2003 wrote:Sebastian wrote:Not only are you pedantic, you also cannot be told anything by anyone. You refuse to learn from others, and that's the worst kind of bore.Holly2003 wrote:I didn't ask anybody to 'speak literally all the time'. I stated that Hitler didn't kill people per se, which is right. Absolutely nothing 'has to be analysed', but it can if a person (me, in this case) wants to. If you're bored with it, you can... wait for it... wait for it... not read! Have you tried that? PS: I know Mr Logic, I think he's great.Sebastian wrote: > I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things.Err.. no. In English, and I'm sure in other languages too, we do not speak literally all the time. It would be very odd if we did, and very boring and annoying. So when someone says "Hitler was a mass murderer" it is simply an information shortcut. The meaning is totally clear and does not have to be analysed to the point where everyone wants to commit suicide out of boredom. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic for an extreme example. Actually, I'm not pedantic, as I'm not preaching any sort of knowledge, nor I'm involved in formal rules (I never went to college, for instance). Of course I can be told loads of things by loads of people, and here, in this forum, I've been told loads of things by loads of people. Of course I don't refuse to learn from others, and as a matter of fact I have learnt a lot from other people in this forum, you included. Regarding the 'worst kind of bore' ... well, that's your opinion, and it's respectable. But the rest of your post is quite off. |
The Real Wizard 11.01.2010 16:13 |
Funky Horsie wrote: To you people, succeeding is becoming important. What good is music if most people don't want to hear it? Or do you only aim to write music for people with supreme musical skills? Yes, any intermediate guitarist can acknowledge that Page often isn't the cleanest player in the world, but he certainly does not suck. Listen to Since I've Been Loving You from How The West Was Won. Nobody has made a Les Paul snarl with such power like Page did on that live album. At their best, worst, and everything in between, there was a certain mysticism about Led Zeppelin that cannot be written in sheet music or conveyed in words. There were four members of the band, as well as a fifth element that was far greater than the sum of the four musicians and what was physically happening. That's why there isn't a single Zeppelin tribute band or any incarnation of the remaining Zeppelin members from the last 29 years that sounded half as good. Any or all of those projects could have had far better musicians from a technical standpoint, but none of them come remotely close to capturing the magic that was Led Zeppelin. But if all you're listening for is "right and wrong notes", you've completely missed the point. Finally... Steve Vai is not God. He is a great writer and arranger and a technical wizard, but as a guitarist he overplays half the time which, to me, makes much of his music unlistenable. |
cacatua 11.01.2010 16:42 |
Sebastian wrote:Holly2003 wrote:Actually, I'm not pedantic, as I'm not preaching any sort of knowledge, nor I'm involved in formal rules (I never went to college, for instance). Of course I can be told loads of things by loads of people, and here, in this forum, I've been told loads of things by loads of people. Of course I don't refuse to learn from others, and as a matter of fact I have learnt a lot from other people in this forum, you included. Regarding the 'worst kind of bore' ... well, that's your opinion, and it's respectable. But the rest of your post is quite off.Sebastian wrote:Not only are you pedantic, you also cannot be told anything by anyone. You refuse to learn from others, and that's the worst kind of bore.Holly2003 wrote:I didn't ask anybody to 'speak literally all the time'. I stated that Hitler didn't kill people per se, which is right. Absolutely nothing 'has to be analysed', but it can if a person (me, in this case) wants to. If you're bored with it, you can... wait for it... wait for it... not read! Have you tried that? PS: I know Mr Logic, I think he's great.Sebastian wrote: > I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things.Err.. no. In English, and I'm sure in other languages too, we do not speak literally all the time. It would be very odd if we did, and very boring and annoying. So when someone says "Hitler was a mass murderer" it is simply an information shortcut. The meaning is totally clear and does not have to be analysed to the point where everyone wants to commit suicide out of boredom. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic for an extreme example. At risk of becoming a target instead of a voyeur, Sebastian, it is difficult to imagine you learning something from anyone because you present yourself in such a way, dismembering anyone's post, piece by piece, as to give the impression that you ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING down to the last infernal detail! Sorry if that is being unfair, but it is the impression I get. It can be very entertaining though if one is not on the receiving end. ;o) |
The Real Wizard 11.01.2010 16:43 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: I do hope you're not rejecting technical proficiency, which IMHO is still a vital ingredient for a great musician. Yes, but it's all a matter of how much one truly needs in order to write music that connects with people. Case in point - Johnny Cash. He knew about 10 chords and wrote hundreds of great songs with them, dozens of which are revered decades later. Therefore I think it's not so much about how technically proficient you are, but what you do with what you have, however much or little. |
Holly2003 11.01.2010 17:02 |
Sir GH wrote:ThomasQuinn wrote: I do hope you're not rejecting technical proficiency, which IMHO is still a vital ingredient for a great musician.Yes, but it's all a matter of how much one truly needs in order to write music that connects with people. Case in point - Johnny Cash. He knew about 10 chords and wrote hundreds of great songs, dozens of which are revered decades later. Therefore I think it's not so much about how technical proficiency you are, but what you do with what you have, however much or little. Cash is sloppy and he can't shred, man. ;) |
GratefulFan 11.01.2010 17:25 |
Arguing that technical excellence is a requisite component of fantastic music is like arguing a great story cannot be communicated without perfect punctuation and flawless grammar. And who would argue that? Not every great story is literature. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 18:32 |
> What good is music if most people don't want to hear it? There are way too many vaquality is just one of themo be heard or not, and quality is just one of them. > Or do you only aim to write music for people with supreme musical skills? While I know your question's not directed at me: IMO, great music should be able to appeal people with or without musical skills. Bo Rhap for instance, can be liked by tone-deaf individuals as well as by professional choirmasters; Beethoven's Sixth is enjoyed by kids, used on ringtones, appreciated by expert musicologists, etc. > Yes, any intermediate guitarist can acknowledge that Page often isn't the cleanest player in the world, but he certainly does not suck. I fully agree. > Listen to Since I've Been Loving You from How The West Was Won. Nobody has made a Les Paul snarl with such power like Page did on that live album. Is it an overdub-free album? It's an honest question since I've never heard it. > At their best, worst, and everything in between, there was a certain mysticism about Led Zeppelin that cannot be written in sheet music or conveyed in words. Well... that's partly a snowball effect. > There were four members of the band, as well as a fifth element that was far greater than the sum of the four musicians and what was physically happening. Which makes Zeppelin's music amazing. But it doesn't change the fact that Page's way overrated as an individual performer. As a songwriter he's great, but as a guitarist he's only 'good', sometimes 'very good', but not the god some people think he is. > That's why there isn't a single Zeppelin tribute band or any incarnation of the remaining Zeppelin members from the last 29 years that sounded half as good. Sure, but that's true for most great bands, Queen included. > Any or all of those projects could have had far better musicians from a technical standpoint, but none of them come remotely close to capturing the magic that was Led Zeppelin. Sure, but that's true for most great bands, Queen included |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 18:32 |
> But if all you're listening for is "right and wrong notes", you've completely missed the point. That's his prerogative. The way I see it, if you've got 10 minutes to record a solo with wrong notes, you could've used the same ten minutes to record it with the right ones. > Finally... Steve Vai is not God. He is a great writer and arranger and a technical wizard, but as a guitarist he overplays half the time which, to me, makes much of his music unlistenable. IMO, a good 95% of his music (at least what's been officially released) is completely listeneable. Now, some people like it some don't, but there's nothing wrong with playing well. There's nothing overplayed there, he can do slow things and fast things and keeps the balance between them. While he's not my favourite guitarist, he's certainly up there. And he's of course way better than Brian, something the doctor himself has admitted. > At risk of becoming a target instead of a voyeur, Sebastian, it is difficult to imagine you learning something from anyone because you present yourself in such a way, dismembering anyone's post, piece by piece, as to give the impression that you ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING down to the last infernal detail! Of course I don't know everything, and of course I've learnt loads of things from loads of people. To explain my point I'll use an oversimplified example: Seb writes: '2+2=4, 4+4=7.' Poster 1 writes: '2+2 is not 4.' Poster 2 writes: '4+4 is not 7.' Poster 3 writes: 'you shouldn't write maths, nobody cares, you have no friends, you won't get laid, you'll die alone.' Discussion with poster 1: Seb: 'Actually, 2+2 is 4.' Poster: 'You can never accept a mistake!!!!!' Seb: 'I can of course. I've been wrong loads of times, but this isn't one of them, since 2+2 is 4.' Poster: 'You're pedantic.' Seb: 'No, I'm not. 2+2 is 4.' Poster stops writing to Seb for a while, then some weeks later comes back with more provokation, or (at convenience) becomes nice to him. End of discussion. Discussion with poster 2: Seb: 'Actually, 4+4 is 7.' Poster: 'No. Look: if you've got four and then add four, you get eight, not seven.' Seb: ''You're right. 4+4 = 8.' End of story. Discussion with poster 3: Seb: 'If I want to write about maths, I'll do it. You can ... wait for it ... wait for it... not read!' Poster: 'You're an idiot. You never learn from anybody else.' Seb: 'Actually, I do, but my point stands: if I want to write about maths, I will.' > Sorry if that is being unfair, but it is the impression I get. It can be very entertaining though if one is not on the receiving end. ;o) If that's the impression, maybe you're jumping to conclusions to early. As exposed in the previous oversimplified example: * I've got no problem in admitting being wrong when I am (for instance, come to think about it, Hitler did kill at least one person: himself). * I've got no problem in becoming a broken record if I'm sure about something. * I think it's ridiculous to criticise whether I 'over-analyse' something or not. It's my prerogative, and I'm not harming anybody by it: if you (not as in you, Cacatua, but 'you' in general) want to change people's behaviours, do it with drunk-drivers, pimps, criminals, lying politicians, etc... by 'over-analysing' the amount of concerts a rock band played during a tour, or whether a guitarist is overrated or not, I'm not harming anybody. > Case in point - Johnny Cash. He knew about 10 chords and wrote hundreds of great songs with them, dozens of which are revered decades later. There's a big difference between doing simple things and doing things you can't do. And that's, sometimes, the problem with Jimmy: he wrote some great things that he couldn't play properly. It's like having John Deacon singing his own songs, or even Brian (a great singer) singing Show Must Go On - great, but another person could do it better. David Bowie was never a Grade 8-worthy classical guitarist, but he plays well and writes things on guitar that he can play cleanly and quite well. Even if not playing with conservatoire-like technique, he's playing well, plucking the notes and making them sound in the right moments and with right pitch, etc. Whenever he wrote (or somebody else wrote) more difficult guitar parts for his songs, he let somebody else play them. That's being a true musician who plays for the song. And in most cases, IMO, Jimmy did play for the song, except on occasions that he composed nice parts but then he played them out of tune, out of rhythm or without precision. The overall result wasn't bad mostly because Bonzo and especially Jonesy were ace, but all in all that's something Page lacked sometimes and Brian didn't. > Therefore I think it's not so much about how technically proficient you are, but what you do with what you have, however much or little. Both things come hand in hand. Vai's shredding things sound great because they're right for the song, right for the mood and because the person playing them (in this case, himself) can actually pull them off. > Arguing that technical excellence is a requisite component of fantastic music is like arguing a great story cannot be communicated without perfect punctuation and flawless grammar. And who would argue that? Not every great story is literature. Sure, but it doesn't mean grammar and punctuation don't matter. Music can be simple and beautifully executed. It can also be ruined by sloppiness. I don't think Page's the worst guitarist ever, and I don't think he sucks, but there are several bits (rhythm and lead) in his own songs that he didn't play quite right, neither on record nor live. |
Holly2003 11.01.2010 19:01 |
I take it poster 3 is me? Why not address me directly instead of being such an ass about it? Instead of simplifying, you've distorted our exchange. Intentionally? If so = dull. Life's too short. I did not call you an idiot but no, you were not correct. Saying "Hitler is a mass murderer" is fine because it's an information short cut. The person who said it assumes we're all familiar with Hitler and we know what he did. There's no need for that person to have to say it any other way just to pass your pedantry test. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 19:19 |
Holly2003 wrote: I take it poster 3 is me? Why not address me directly instead of being such an ass about it? Instead of simplifying, you've distorted our exchange. Intentionally? If so = dull. Life's too short. I did not call you an idiot but no, you were not correct. Saying "Hitler is a mass murderer" is fine because it's an information short cut. The person who said it assumes we're all familiar with Hitler and we know what he did. There's no need for that person to have to say it any other way just to pass your pedantry test. No, poster 3 is not you. Poster 3 is a fictional character I picked for the example I set, as are poster 1 and 2. And I didn't say 'saying "Hitler is a mass murderer"' wasn't fine. I do say it now: that sentence is wrong, because Hitler died, hence, he's not a mass murderer, regardless of whether he was one before or not. Let's see what happened: I wrote: 'Hitler didn't kill people. He ordered loads of killings, which is not the same thing.' And I stand by it. Amazon then wrote that ' to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong'. And I wrote 'No, it's not'. And I also stand by it, because it's not 'completely and totally wrong', as he didn't kill people. He killed a person (unless of course he actually pulled the trigger for more individuals than himself). I'm not criticising the figurative or literal use of language (Amazon is, BTW, in that post), nor I'm in any way offending Amazon, his/her personality or his/her ability (or lack thereof) to learn. You (you, Holly2003), on the other hand, are, which is indeed completely imbecile on your side seeing that: * You don't know me. * You completely missed the point I was making. And by the way, I'm not calling you an imbecile, I am saying, though, that saying I can't learn from others based on what you've read on an on-line forum (where I've, many times, acknowledging learning from others) is imbecile. Not the person, but the act. So, to sum up: * If you see Hitler as a mass murderer, you've got all the right to. In legal terms, it's enough that he was the mastermind and an accessory before the fact. * However, if I write 'Hitler didn't kill people', it's not 'completely and totally wrong', as he didn't, actually, kill people, besides himself (AFAIK). * If I make a mistake (and I've done so, many many times), I've got no problem in accepting it. However, if I'm right about something, I don't mind being a broken record about it and I don't mind defending my point. If you (a general 'you', not as in 'you, Holly2003') are annoyed by that, you can, as I pointed out earlier, refrain from reading. * If I've got any problem with you (you, Holly2003), I'll address it to you (you, Holly2003) directly. As I wrote earlier, 'Poster 3' is a fictional representation. If you sensed any resemblance, it's your problem, not mine. And by the way I haven't got a pedantry test, as I'm not pedantic. |
cacatua 11.01.2010 19:55 |
I am STILL amused, Sebastian. You are pissing into the wind! You are trying to rationalize emotional evaluations, and meanwhile getting crosswise of people in the process with all of the nit-picking. Has anyone here who thought Jimmy Page's playing sucked had their mind changed? Raise your hand. Has anyone here who thinks well Jimmy of Page's playing had their mind changed? Huh? Does anyone here remember what the original post was about? And, now that Johnny Cash has also been sucked into this rolling blob of a discussion, has anyone noticed that Brian has been somewhat favoring black trousers and a longish black jacket in appearances like the book signings? Brings to my mind The Man in Black, aka Johnny Cash. Well, except for the hair. |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 20:06 |
> I am STILL amused, Sebastian. Great! Amusement is good for your health. > You are pissing into the wind! Actually, I'm not (and of course I know the meaning of that expression), as I'm addressing the points directly. Holly2003 wrote I was referring to him/her, I cleared up I wasn't; Amazon said my statement was 'completely and utterly wrong' (or something to that effect, and I cleared up it isn't. > You are trying to rationalize emotional evaluations Again, I'm not: I didn't rationalise Holly's 'bore to death' comment, and I did say it's respectable; same for other 'emotional evaluations' as you call them. For other things which can be objectively measured, I do have a say, which is sometimes right, sometimes wrong. And in this case, it's right: saying 'Hitler was a mass murderer' and saying 'Hitler didn't actually kill people' aren't mutually exclusive. > and meanwhile getting crosswise of people in the process with all of the nit-picking I won't refrain from writing just to avoid 'getting crosswise of people'. Again, I'm not offending anybody (as Holly2003 is, BTW), and I'm not harming anybody. People who care enough to reply to what I write will get an a comment from me, which may or may not be what they want. Not my problem anyway. > Has anyone here who thought Jimmy Page's playing sucked had their mind changed? This forum doesn't exist to convert anybody, and its discussions aren't made to convince others about one's perspectives. > Does anyone here remember what the original post was about? Actually, I do: best guitar work by Brian May. I know it's a rethorical question but still... > has anyone noticed that Brian has been somewhat favoring black trousers and a longish black jacket in appearances like the book signings? Brings to my mind The Man in Black, aka Johnny Cash. Well, except for the hair. At least we can be grateful he didn't favour Freddie's 70's clothing... up to 'News', that is. |
cacatua 11.01.2010 21:30 |
Sebastian wrote: > I am STILL amused, Sebastian. Great! Amusement is good for your health. > You are pissing into the wind! Actually, I'm not (and of course I know the meaning of that expression), as I'm addressing the points directly. Holly2003 wrote I was referring to him/her, I cleared up I wasn't; Amazon said my statement was 'completely and utterly wrong' (or something to that effect, and I cleared up it isn't. > You are trying to rationalize emotional evaluations Again, I'm not: I didn't rationalise Holly's 'bore to death' comment, and I did say it's respectable; same for other 'emotional evaluations' as you call them. For other things which can be objectively measured, I do have a say, which is sometimes right, sometimes wrong. And in this case, it's right: saying 'Hitler was a mass murderer' and saying 'Hitler didn't actually kill people' aren't mutually exclusive. > and meanwhile getting crosswise of people in the process with all of the nit-picking I won't refrain from writing just to avoid 'getting crosswise of people'. Again, I'm not offending anybody (as Holly2003 is, BTW), and I'm not harming anybody. People who care enough to reply to what I write will get an a comment from me, which may or may not be what they want. Not my problem anyway. > Has anyone here who thought Jimmy Page's playing sucked had their mind changed? This forum doesn't exist to convert anybody, and its discussions aren't made to convince others about one's perspectives. > Does anyone here remember what the original post was about? Actually, I do: best guitar work by Brian May. I know it's a rethorical question but still... > has anyone noticed that Brian has been somewhat favoring black trousers and a longish black jacket in appearances like the book signings? Brings to my mind The Man in Black, aka Johnny Cash. Well, except for the hair. At least we can be grateful he didn't favour Freddie's 70's clothing... up to 'News', that is. Hehehe........Just like jousting with a windmill. My hat's off to you. ;o) |
Sebastian 11.01.2010 21:49 |
I hate Don Quixote. |
The Real Wizard 11.01.2010 22:43 |
Sebastian wrote: > Listen to Since I've Been Loving You from How The West Was Won. Nobody has made a Les Paul snarl with such power like Page did on that live album. Is it an overdub-free album? It's an honest question since I've never heard it.Both the LZ DVD and HTWWW are purely live, although the some guitar or vocal bits are slipped in from another night to create a more definitive performance. In the case of HTWWW, it's a compilation of two June 1972 shows as such, with only one exception - the keys in Stairway are taken from a January 1973 show, as Page and/or John Paul Jones preferred the mellotron sound over the organ that JPJ used at the original show (he switched to the mellotron in concert in October 1972). Even with those adjustments, it's about as honest as a live album is going to get from a classic rock band. > Any or all of those projects could have had far better musicians from a technical standpoint, but none of them come remotely close to capturing the magic that was Led Zeppelin. Sure, but that's true for most great bands, Queen included Agreed. |
Matias Merçeauroix 12.01.2010 00:11 |
Sir GH wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: To you people, succeeding is becoming important.What good is music if most people don't want to hear it? Or do you only aim to write music for people with supreme musical skills? Yes, any intermediate guitarist can acknowledge that Page often isn't the cleanest player in the world, but he certainly does not suck. Listen to Since I've Been Loving You from How The West Was Won. Nobody has made a Les Paul snarl with such power like Page did on that live album. At their best, worst, and everything in between, there was a certain mysticism about Led Zeppelin that cannot be written in sheet music or conveyed in words. There were four members of the band, as well as a fifth element that was far greater than the sum of the four musicians and what was physically happening. That's why there isn't a single Zeppelin tribute band or any incarnation of the remaining Zeppelin members from the last 29 years that sounded half as good. Any or all of those projects could have had far better musicians from a technical standpoint, but none of them come remotely close to capturing the magic that was Led Zeppelin. But if all you're listening for is "right and wrong notes", you've completely missed the point. Finally... Steve Vai is not God. He is a great writer and arranger and a technical wizard, but as a guitarist he overplays half the time which, to me, makes much of his music unlistenable. No |
Amazon 12.01.2010 01:28 |
Sebastian wrote: > I will ignore the genius comment, but to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong. No, it's not: an orchestral conductor isn't playing the instruments, even if what he or she does is even more important. Same case here: Hitler didn't kill, although he ordered literally millions of murders which is, as you imply, even more criminal. But he didn't kill. > Sebastian, you're often quite pedantic Actually, I'm not. I am concerned with points that other people would find trivial, but that's merely an effect of people being different and liking different things. > Hitler was a genocidal murderer. And a way better (worse) one than Page as guitarist. > End of story. Not really... there are loads of things that haven't been cleared up about that era, loads of uncovered secrets, etc. Without them seeing the light, the 'end of story' is still light years away. I agree with Holly2003. Sebastian, here are the facts. Hitler ordered the deaths of millions of people. He wanted to kill Jews, and upon assuming power, he made it a reality. If he hadn't gone to power, there is an excellent chance that those people would still be alive. Did he kill them with his own bare hands? No, but he is still a murderer! In a court of law, he would be tried on 12 million counts of murder, and would be treated exactly as if he had pulled the trigger himself. You can be concerned with whatever points you want, but if you insist that Hitler was not a murderer or that he didn't kill, when he was both a murderer and killed, it simply shows your ignorance. Furthermore, considering the organisational records kept, there are actually very little things we know about The Holocaust. |
Amazon 12.01.2010 01:30 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "It was already a masterpiece. If he'd been putting Heartbreaker style vocals on it, it would not have made any sense. It would be like Bonzo doubling the tempo or Page solo-ing during the lyrics." I don't know about Heartbreaker style lyrics, but I do think that Plant should have been deeper and more aggressive. If he had done so, I think it could have been an absolute masterpiece. As it is, I think it's a minor masterpiece, and due entirely to the instrumentation. |
Sebastian 12.01.2010 02:15 |
> Hitler ordered the deaths of millions of people. Of course he did. Did I say otherwise? > He wanted to kill Jews, and upon assuming power, he made it a reality. Not really. He wanted to have Jews killed (not the same), and upon assuming power, he made it a reality. His dream was for the race to be 'cleansed', not for him to commit the murders. And by the way his dictatorship resulted in the death of loads of non-Jewish people, including African immigrants or descendents, homosexuals, etc. > If he hadn't gone to power, there is an excellent chance that those people would still be alive. There you're quite off: first of all, many of those people would be over 80 by now , and comparatively very few people actually make it to that age. Also, consider diseases, other wars, accidents, etc. Of course (before you jump into some ridiculous conclusion), I'm not at all defending the nazis or saying that it was ok because they'd die some day anyway. Your sentence could be rephrased to 'if he hadn't gone to power, there is an excellent chance that the vast majority of those people wouldn't have been murdered'. And that would be correct. What Hitler did was wrong, and it affected the lives of millions of people, not only Jewish, but also people from virtually every ethnic group who in one way or another suffered the consequences. If you say he killed (figuratively), you're right; if I say he didn't actually kill (which isn't at all denying the brutality of his actions), I'm also right; if you say my statement is 'totally and utterly wrong', then you're the one who's 'absolutely and utterly wrong' because, as I wrote earlier, being a genocide (which is totally wrong and criminal and unfair) and not having actually killed people (i.e. not being the perpetrator) aren't mutually exclusive. And they aren't: Hitler didn't kill people, but he was the orchestrator of millions of murders. > Did he kill them with his own bare hands? No, but he is still a murderer! In a court of law, he would be tried on 12 million counts of murder Yes, and if you learnt to read (or bothered to do it before calling me an ignorant), I did refer to the legal point in one of my replies. > You can be concerned with whatever points you want, but if you insist that Hitler was not a murderer or that he didn't kill I didn't insist that he was not a murderer, I insisted (and still do) that the statements 'he was a mass murderer' and 'he didn't kill people' aren't mutually exclusive. And they aren't. > it simply shows your ignorance. Yes, if I did that, it would be the case. But I: * Stated that what he did was equally wrong... actually, it's even worse, because those who did the killings were (some of them at least) doing it because they were threatened too, or because they'd been naively following a nasty ideal, etc. * Stated that from a legal POV, being an accessory before the fact and a mastermind is treated equally as if he'd been the perpetrator. * Didn't in any moment insist on any sort of alleged innocence whatsoever. If you read what I wrote between your previous post and this one, and still didn't comprehend that, then it shows YOUR ignorance. If you didn't read what I wrote between both moments and simply started writing accusations without knowing the full story (in this case, what I wrote and didn't write) then, again, it shows YOUR ignorance. If you thought/think I was saying he was innocent just because I commented that he didn't actually kill people, then it shows YOUR ignorance. Again, one can be guilty, a genocide, a mass murderer... and still not kill people. Those two statements aren't mutually exclusive. > Furthermore, considering the organisational records kept, there are actually very little things we know about The Holocaust. Which again shows that your 'end of story' claim is wrong. |
john bodega 12.01.2010 03:31 |
To me there are two Steve Vai's. There is the unlistenable wanker from the 80's, and then there is the matured, more tasteful (at the very least, far more interesting) Vai from later years. He mightn't be to my tastes but he has written some great pieces. Regrettably it took a while for me to sift through the earlier junk, which is bloody embarrassing to listen to. |
Holly2003 12.01.2010 06:22 |
Sebastian wrote:Holly2003 wrote: I take it poster 3 is me? Why not address me directly instead of being such an ass about it? Instead of simplifying, you've distorted our exchange. Intentionally? If so = dull. Life's too short. I did not call you an idiot but no, you were not correct. Saying "Hitler is a mass murderer" is fine because it's an information short cut. The person who said it assumes we're all familiar with Hitler and we know what he did. There's no need for that person to have to say it any other way just to pass your pedantry test.No, poster 3 is not you. Poster 3 is a fictional character I picked for the example I set, as are poster 1 and 2. And I didn't say 'saying "Hitler is a mass murderer"' wasn't fine. I do say it now: that sentence is wrong, because Hitler died, hence, he's not a mass murderer, regardless of whether he was one before or not. Let's see what happened: I wrote: 'Hitler didn't kill people. He ordered loads of killings, which is not the same thing.' And I stand by it. Amazon then wrote that ' to say that Hitler didn't kill people is completely and totally wrong'. And I wrote 'No, it's not'. And I also stand by it, because it's not 'completely and totally wrong', as he didn't kill people. He killed a person (unless of course he actually pulled the trigger for more individuals than himself). I'm not criticising the figurative or literal use of language (Amazon is, BTW, in that post), nor I'm in any way offending Amazon, his/her personality or his/her ability (or lack thereof) to learn. You (you, Holly2003), on the other hand, are, which is indeed completely imbecile on your side seeing that: * You don't know me. * You completely missed the point I was making. And by the way, I'm not calling you an imbecile, I am saying, though, that saying I can't learn from others based on what you've read on an on-line forum (where I've, many times, acknowledging learning from others) is imbecile. Not the person, but the act. So, to sum up: * If you see Hitler as a mass murderer, you've got all the right to. In legal terms, it's enough that he was the mastermind and an accessory before the fact. * However, if I write 'Hitler didn't kill people', it's not 'completely and totally wrong', as he didn't, actually, kill people, besides himself (AFAIK). * If I make a mistake (and I've done so, many many times), I've got no problem in accepting it. However, if I'm right about something, I don't mind being a broken record about it and I don't mind defending my point. If you (a general 'you', not as in 'you, Holly2003') are annoyed by that, you can, as I pointed out earlier, refrain from reading. * If I've got any problem with you (you, Holly2003), I'll address it to you (you, Holly2003) directly. As I wrote earlier, 'Poster 3' is a fictional representation. If you sensed any resemblance, it's your problem, not mine. And by the way I haven't got a pedantry test, as I'm not pedantic. What a load of bollocks. |
john bodega 12.01.2010 06:34 |
Hitler did kill people, he was in WW1! |
Wiley 12.01.2010 10:32 |
Sebastian wrote: I hate Don Quixote. Oh, come one... someone take this post and over-analize it like he does. :D I do enjoy most of Seb's posts but agree about some of the criticism he gets. He does like to argue for the sake of arguing and he does go off in tangents based on semantics, disregarding other people's posts for not using the exact words. I'm sure he understands people find that annoying and he simply doesn't care. He's entitled to his opinion and considering the majority of his posts are good contributions to the forum, he'll never be considered a troll. He tries, though :D. |
The Real Wizard 12.01.2010 10:45 |
Funky Horsie wrote: No Thanks for your thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. |
Matias Merçeauroix 12.01.2010 13:20 |
Sir GH wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: NoThanks for your thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. What do you want me to answer? It's obvious that I'm arguing with a deaf person, I'm wasting my time. --- @ Zebonka: Steve only released 1 album during the 80's, WTF are you talking about? And it is quite different from the stuff he did later. It has some pretty great tunes tho: The Attitude Song, Call It Sleep, Lovers Are Crazy, Bledsoe Blvd, etc. The good thing about Steve is he's always changing. Flex-able has nothing to do with Passion & Warfare, or Alien Love Secrets. Fire Garden is a masterpiece. If you don't like a fantastic work like Fire Garden Suite and you call it overplayed... well, what can we say? Stick to mediocre bad-played shit like Zeppelin. |
Sebastian 12.01.2010 13:38 |
> What a load of bollocks. No, it's not, except for the 'he didn't kill' bit because, as Zeb pointed out, he in fact did (and I, indeed, forgot about WW1). The rest I stand by: if you've got a problem with me thinking differently from you, then it's you who are pedantic, not me. > Hitler did kill people, he was in WW1! Very good point. I forgot about that. > Oh, come one... someone take this post and over-analize it like he does. :D Tastes can't be overanalysed, not in an objective manner as you cleverly pointed out in another thread (or was it this one?). If I'd said 'Don Quixote sucks', then you (or anybody else) would have all the right to refute. However, tastes are tastes: whether I hate a novel or not is entirely up to my personal taste. > I do enjoy most of Seb's posts but agree about some of the criticism he gets. And you've got all the right to do so. > He does like to argue for the sake of arguing Actually, I don't. I 'argue' when I find something worth arguing about. > and he does go off in tangents based on semantics Maybe sometimes, but I do it respectfully, not calling names to other people (which is something several other posters do without any provokation whatsoever). > disregarding other people's posts for not using the exact words. If I 'disregarded' other people's posts, I simply wouldn't read them. If I reply to them, it's because either the post or the poster, or both, are intelligent and there's no point IMO to simply 'leave it at that' just for fear of being called names. > I'm sure he understands people find that annoying and he simply doesn't care. I can't control what people like or don't like. Again, if someone doesn't like the way I write or the content I write about or the points I make, he or she can simply skip my posts and refrain from reading them. If a person (unless it's a troll) cares enough to reply, then I return the favour. > He's entitled to his opinion and considering the majority of his posts are good contributions to the forum, he'll never be considered a troll. He tries, though :D. No, I don't. Regarding Vai's early work: it's genius! |
john bodega 12.01.2010 15:10 |
"Steve only released 1 album during the 80's, WTF are you talking about?" I was more referring to his playing for other people, which is (at first glance) really what gives him a reputation (amongst SOME people) as a middly-meeing moron. As I was saying though, that's a misconception. |
The Real Wizard 12.01.2010 20:45 |
Funky Horsie wrote: What do you want me to answer? It's obvious that I'm arguing with a deaf person, I'm wasting my time. So if I don't worship Steve Vai and choose to respect Led Zeppelin, I'm deaf? Good luck selling that point of view to anyone outside of a select few music snobs. |
john bodega 13.01.2010 02:46 |
Any listener will tell you that it's not Steve Vai that is the problem - it's his fans! Steve is a nice guy and a great writer. Like a lot of famous guitarists though, he seems to attract "all sorts". |
Matias Merçeauroix 13.01.2010 03:33 |
Sir GH wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: What do you want me to answer? It's obvious that I'm arguing with a deaf person, I'm wasting my time.So if I don't worship Steve Vai and choose to respect Led Zeppelin, I'm deaf? Good luck selling that point of view to anyone outside of a select few music snobs. Well... if you're just a guy listening to albums in his house, I don't think you'd give a fuck about Page being the worst guitar player ever. But, on the other hand, if you ever dare to call yourself a decent musician, I think you should, at least, realize that he FUCKING SUCKS. If you choose to like his shit despite that, I don't think anyone would care but... being unable to notice his obvious lack of skills... now that's a problem. |
Sebastian 13.01.2010 03:49 |
Well, I respect your opinion, but I don't share it. Just like there are many guitar players that were/are not in the slightest way influenced by Page but still play wonderfully, there are many guitarists who don't think Jimmy sucks, who actually admire him, and for whom things turned out OK (Brian included). So, not everybody who dislikes (or is not interested in) Page is a snob, and not everybody who likes him is deaf. |
The Real Wizard 13.01.2010 09:30 |
Funky Horsie wrote: But, on the other hand, if you ever dare to call yourself a decent musician, I think you should, at least, realize that he FUCKING SUCKS. If you choose to like his shit despite that, I don't think anyone would care but... being unable to notice his obvious lack of skills... now that's a problem. If you'd care to read one of my earlier posts, I readily acknowledged that he wasn't the cleanest of players. Even Page himself has acknowledged this. I invite you to recall that 95% of the population aren't musicians, and 99.9% of the population aren't musicians who can tell the difference, so what do they care if he hit the open B string a couple times? There's more to music than the cleanliness of guitar notes. If you can't be bothered to see past that and recognize the other dimensions of Page and Led Zeppelin's music, it's your loss. You can like what you like, and the rest of the world will like what they like. There's no need to slam Page at every possible opportunity just because you don't get what he was all about. |
Voice of Reason 2018 13.01.2010 09:35 |
I just tuned into this thread and went straight to page 7. How the fuck did you get from Brian's guitar playing to Hitler?!! Happy New Year! |
Holly2003 13.01.2010 10:10 |
Voice of Reason 2009 wrote: I just tuned into this thread and went straight to page 7. How the fuck did you get from Brian's guitar playing to Hitler?!! Happy New Year!Easy, and I can do it quicker than that. Brian May was the lead guitar player for Queen Dave Marsh of the NME called Queen "the world's first fascist rock band" The most famous fascist is... Adolf Hitler |
Matias Merçeauroix 13.01.2010 12:14 |
Sebastian wrote: Well, I respect your opinion, but I don't share it. Just like there are many guitar players that were/are not in the slightest way influenced by Page but still play wonderfully, there are many guitarists who don't think Jimmy sucks, who actually admire him, and for whom things turned out OK (Brian included). So, not everybody who dislikes (or is not interested in) Page is a snob, and not everybody who likes him is deaf. We'd have to see which ones really liked Page and which ones grew up listening to his (horrible) music and eventually named him among musical influences because of that. Besides, I don't think any important musician would go and say OK, LED ZEPPELIN IS CRAP, because it's not clever to do so, it's not polite and you won't change people's minds. On the other hand, I can allow myself to say it as much as I want and piss idiots off, which I love doing. And yes, Page DOES suck. There is a HUGE difference between being somewhat sloppy (as Eddie Van Halen live, during the early years) and being an utter disaster/a motherfucker that should have never picked up a guitar. I also think his songs are poor and terrible. It's ridiculous how his bandmates didn't kick him out of the band. Plant eventually became a pretty good singer. John Paul Jones is great and Bonzo really improved during the years... yet Page always managed to suck. I mean... you can see John Paul Jones' WTF/LMFAO face during Jimmy's solos. But one should always look on the bright side of life. Maybe Page is a good cock, maybe he is an amazing tennis player! |
Holly2003 13.01.2010 12:35 |
Funky Horsie wrote: We'd have to see which ones really liked Page and which ones grew up listening to his (horrible) music and eventually named him among musical influences because of that. Besides, I don't think any important musician would go and say OK, LED ZEPPELIN IS CRAP, because it's not clever to do so, it's not polite and you won't change people's minds. On the other hand, I can allow myself to say it as much as I want and piss idiots off, which I love doing. And yes, Page DOES suck. There is a HUGE difference between being somewhat sloppy (as Eddie Van Halen live, during the early years) and being an utter disaster/a motherfucker that should have never picked up a guitar. I also think his songs are poor and terrible. It's ridiculous how his bandmates didn't kick him out of the band. Plant eventually became a pretty good singer. John Paul Jones is great and Bonzo really improved during the years... yet Page always managed to suck. I mean... you can see John Paul Jones' WTF/LMFAO face during Jimmy's solos. But one should always look on the bright side of life. Maybe Page is a good cock, maybe he is an amazing tennis player! So while you're trolling around forums trying to annoy people, at around the same age, Page was a member of rock's most famous band, having the time of his life, and making millions of dollars. Okay.... |
john bodega 13.01.2010 13:02 |
He'd rather be right than happy! |
Matias Merçeauroix 13.01.2010 15:28 |
Holly2003 wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: We'd have to see which ones really liked Page and which ones grew up listening to his (horrible) music and eventually named him among musical influences because of that. Besides, I don't think any important musician would go and say OK, LED ZEPPELIN IS CRAP, because it's not clever to do so, it's not polite and you won't change people's minds. On the other hand, I can allow myself to say it as much as I want and piss idiots off, which I love doing. And yes, Page DOES suck. There is a HUGE difference between being somewhat sloppy (as Eddie Van Halen live, during the early years) and being an utter disaster/a motherfucker that should have never picked up a guitar. I also think his songs are poor and terrible. It's ridiculous how his bandmates didn't kick him out of the band. Plant eventually became a pretty good singer. John Paul Jones is great and Bonzo really improved during the years... yet Page always managed to suck. I mean... you can see John Paul Jones' WTF/LMFAO face during Jimmy's solos. But one should always look on the bright side of life. Maybe Page is a good cock, maybe he is an amazing tennis player!So while you're trolling around forums trying to annoy people, at around the same age, Page was a member of rock's most famous band, having the time of his life, and making millions of dollars. Okay.... I think it's time you stopped repeating how much money Page did. It's clear for everyone that if you were to have a band, the last thing you'd care about is the music. You seem to love money so much, it's actually sad. On the other hand, I'm not trolling. I'm stating something that it's incredibly true. Your reactions make me laugh, like when someone says FREDDIE MERCURY WAS GAY and lots of people cry and say: a- "BUT HE WAS A GOOD SINGER!!!", when nobody said anything about his vocal skills in the first place. b- "NO, HE WASN'T, HE WAS BISEXUAL", which is not true. c- "YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC", when nobody said anything about homosexuality being a bad thing, it was just stated that Freddie Mercury was, indeed, gay. d- "OMFG OMFG WTF WTF LOLZOR" But none of them actually says YES, HE WAS. Which he was and it's true and nobody can deny. Which, of course, has nothing to do with his music. And the statement itself doesn't say it's a good or a bad thing, it just says something that is true. That's pretty much what happens when I say that Jimmy Page sucks. He does suck. So much. And there are of course, those who say he doesn't. Those who say it doesn't matter. Those who say he did kinda suck and people like you who say "BUT HE HAZ A LOTSA MONEY LAWLZ!!!111!1!1!!" |
The Real Wizard 13.01.2010 15:57 |
Equating your opinion with an indisputable fact like Freddie Mercury's homosexuality is where this discussion now gets a bit misguided. You think you're such a serious musician, but I suggest you re-examine that position. No serious musician goes out of his way to denigrate one of his peers to this extent - especially one who has had a significant impact on tens of millions of people, musicians and non-musicians alike. And calling those who disagree with you "deaf" without providing some kind of basis for your assertions certainly isn't going to grant your argument any credibility. |
Holly2003 13.01.2010 15:57 |
Funky Horsie wrote:Holly2003 wrote:I think it's time you stopped repeating how much money Page did. It's clear for everyone that if you were to have a band, the last thing you'd care about is the music. You seem to love money so much, it's actually sad. On the other hand, I'm not trolling. I'm stating something that it's incredibly true. Your reactions make me laugh, like when someone says FREDDIE MERCURY WAS GAY and lots of people cry and say: a- "BUT HE WAS A GOOD SINGER!!!", when nobody said anything about his vocal skills in the first place. b- "NO, HE WASN'T, HE WAS BISEXUAL", which is not true. c- "YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC", when nobody said anything about homosexuality being a bad thing, it was just stated that Freddie Mercury was, indeed, gay. d- "OMFG OMFG WTF WTF LOLZOR" But none of them actually says YES, HE WAS. Which he was and it's true and nobody can deny. Which, of course, has nothing to do with his music. And the statement itself doesn't say it's a good or a bad thing, it just says something that is true. That's pretty much what happens when I say that Jimmy Page sucks. He does suck. So much. And there are of course, those who say he doesn't. Those who say it doesn't matter. Those who say he did kinda suck and people like you who say "BUT HE HAZ A LOTSA MONEY LAWLZ!!!111!1!1!!"Funky Horsie wrote: We'd have to see which ones really liked Page and which ones grew up listening to his (horrible) music and eventually named him among musical influences because of that. Besides, I don't think any important musician would go and say OK, LED ZEPPELIN IS CRAP, because it's not clever to do so, it's not polite and you won't change people's minds. On the other hand, I can allow myself to say it as much as I want and piss idiots off, which I love doing. And yes, Page DOES suck. There is a HUGE difference between being somewhat sloppy (as Eddie Van Halen live, during the early years) and being an utter disaster/a motherfucker that should have never picked up a guitar. I also think his songs are poor and terrible. It's ridiculous how his bandmates didn't kick him out of the band. Plant eventually became a pretty good singer. John Paul Jones is great and Bonzo really improved during the years... yet Page always managed to suck. I mean... you can see John Paul Jones' WTF/LMFAO face during Jimmy's solos. But one should always look on the bright side of life. Maybe Page is a good cock, maybe he is an amazing tennis player!So while you're trolling around forums trying to annoy people, at around the same age, Page was a member of rock's most famous band, having the time of his life, and making millions of dollars. Okay.... Nope, what's sad is your admisson that you troll around internet forums trying to annoy people. Your attempt to bring Fred into this is embarrasing. You should stop now before you make a bigger fool of yourself. But of course you won't, because trolls like you crave attention, as you've admitted above. |
Sebastian 13.01.2010 16:47 |
Being a serious musician has nothing to do with being a good politician. |
Major Tom 13.01.2010 19:03 |
Well, IMO, the best work he's done is the "Back to the light" album. Through and through a brilliant album with lots of emotion and since it's a "concept album"(I like ém, ok!), I tend to listen to it a lot. Resurrection, Back to the light, Last horizon, brilliant... |
Major Tom 13.01.2010 19:04 |
Funky Horsie wrote:Explain Mary and Barbara then.Holly2003 wrote:I think it's time you stopped repeating how much money Page did. It's clear for everyone that if you were to have a band, the last thing you'd care about is the music. You seem to love money so much, it's actually sad. On the other hand, I'm not trolling. I'm stating something that it's incredibly true. Your reactions make me laugh, like when someone says FREDDIE MERCURY WAS GAY and lots of people cry and say: a- "BUT HE WAS A GOOD SINGER!!!", when nobody said anything about his vocal skills in the first place. b- "NO, HE WASN'T, HE WAS BISEXUAL", which is not true. c- "YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC", when nobody said anything about homosexuality being a bad thing, it was just stated that Freddie Mercury was, indeed, gay. d- "OMFG OMFG WTF WTF LOLZOR" But none of them actually says YES, HE WAS. Which he was and it's true and nobody can deny. Which, of course, has nothing to do with his music. And the statement itself doesn't say it's a good or a bad thing, it just says something that is true. That's pretty much what happens when I say that Jimmy Page sucks. He does suck. So much. And there are of course, those who say he doesn't. Those who say it doesn't matter. Those who say he did kinda suck and people like you who say "BUT HE HAZ A LOTSA MONEY LAWLZ!!!111!1!1!!"Funky Horsie wrote: We'd have to see which ones really liked Page and which ones grew up listening to his (horrible) music and eventually named him among musical influences because of that. Besides, I don't think any important musician would go and say OK, LED ZEPPELIN IS CRAP, because it's not clever to do so, it's not polite and you won't change people's minds. On the other hand, I can allow myself to say it as much as I want and piss idiots off, which I love doing. And yes, Page DOES suck. There is a HUGE difference between being somewhat sloppy (as Eddie Van Halen live, during the early years) and being an utter disaster/a motherfucker that should have never picked up a guitar. I also think his songs are poor and terrible. It's ridiculous how his bandmates didn't kick him out of the band. Plant eventually became a pretty good singer. John Paul Jones is great and Bonzo really improved during the years... yet Page always managed to suck. I mean... you can see John Paul Jones' WTF/LMFAO face during Jimmy's solos. But one should always look on the bright side of life. Maybe Page is a good cock, maybe he is an amazing tennis player!So while you're trolling around forums trying to annoy people, at around the same age, Page was a member of rock's most famous band, having the time of his life, and making millions of dollars. Okay.... |
john bodega 13.01.2010 23:53 |
Of course he was a little bi. Everyone is (apparently). |
mike hunt 14.01.2010 03:47 |
It's obvious the man was gay, why is that such a problem for some people to understand.?...Mary was his beard, his coverup. Barbara slept with fred, that's very true, but the only problem is that freddie and barb would wake up next to a young man they picked up at the bar the night before. Obviously he loved mary, but physically she did nothing for him once he came out of the closet. Just look at behind the scenes of the video the great pretender. If that doesn't convince you the man was gay, then nothing will. |
dragon-fly 14.01.2010 07:16 |
Major Tom wrote: Well, IMO, the best work he's done is the "Back to the light" album. Through and through a brilliant album with lots of emotion and since it's a "concept album"(I like ém, ok!), I tend to listen to it a lot. Resurrection, Back to the light, Last horizon, brilliant... Man, what are you talking about? :D I love this thread- ROFL |
Matias Merçeauroix 14.01.2010 18:09 |
Holly2003 wrote: Nope, what's sad is your admisson that you troll around internet forums trying to annoy people. Your attempt to bring Fred into this is embarrasing. You should stop now before you make a bigger fool of yourself. But of course you won't, because trolls like you crave attention, as you've admitted above. You don't seem to get the point. Do you have ADD or something? I like to argue with people about things I find interesting, I enjoy debating. I think that's what a forum is for. If think anyone who tries this is a "troll" then, fuck, you should join an Queen/Page/whatever adoration group, where no one will bother you. On the other hand, I think Jimmy speaks for himself: link This is seriously, the worst thing I've heard in my life. You know... someone who plays like that, just CAN NOT be one of the best guitar players ever. It's completely impossible. But I have. of course, also seen concerts of Led Zeppelin from the mid 70's and fuck... he's really awful. 80% of what he plays is just plain embarrasing. The other 20% is not THAT bad, just very sloppy. Jimmy Page CAN'T be considered a good guitar player. But what I will NEVER understand is why people talk about Zeppelin as the ultimate rock band when the band next door was FAR SUPERIOR. I'm talking about Deep Purple, of course. I mean... MUCH better singer. MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Paice is a much better drummer than Bonham. BLACKMORE IS SURELY BETTER THAN PAGE... but, then again, everyone is. Jon Lord is one GREAT player. The arrangements are better, the compositions, everything... I mean, it's like comparing the moon and Paul Rodgers' smegma. Seriously. |
Sebastian 14.01.2010 20:02 |
Blackmore didn't have the effect on rock music that Page and Hendrix had, but he certainly played better than either. |
cacatua 14.01.2010 21:11 |
Mike Hunt wrote: "Just look at behind the scenes of the video the great pretender. If that doesn't convince you the man was gay, then nothing will." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What does this say about Roger then?? |
Sheer Brass Neck 14.01.2010 22:18 |
Funky Horsie wrote: But what I will NEVER understand is why people talk about Zeppelin as the ultimate rock band when the band next door was FAR SUPERIOR. I'm talking about Deep Purple, of course. I mean... MUCH better singer. MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Paice is a much better drummer than Bonham. BLACKMORE IS SURELY BETTER THAN PAGE... but, then again, everyone is. Jon Lord is one GREAT player. The arrangements are better, the compositions, everything... I mean, it's like comparing the moon and Paul Rodgers' smegma. Seriously.Dude, you believe what you want about Jimmy Page being bad, and he did suck in that video, and that's good. If your criteria for being a good guitarist feature things Page is incapable of, fair enough. Lots would disagree with you, lots would agree. But if you honestly believe what you wrote about Deep Purple, then you truly don't understand anything about music, because even if all of the things you listed why Deep Purple are true, their songs OBVIOUSLY did not CONNECT with fans like Zep's did. Knowing you though, you'll argue with this with your opinion and dubious facts. |
Sheer Brass Neck 14.01.2010 22:18 |
Funky Horsie wrote: But what I will NEVER understand is why people talk about Zeppelin as the ultimate rock band when the band next door was FAR SUPERIOR. I'm talking about Deep Purple, of course. I mean... MUCH better singer. MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Paice is a much better drummer than Bonham. BLACKMORE IS SURELY BETTER THAN PAGE... but, then again, everyone is. Jon Lord is one GREAT player. The arrangements are better, the compositions, everything... I mean, it's like comparing the moon and Paul Rodgers' smegma. Seriously.Dude, you believe what you want about Jimmy Page being bad, and he did suck in that video, and that's good. If your criteria for being a good guitarist feature things Page is incapable of, fair enough. Lots would disagree with you, lots would agree. But if you honestly believe what you wrote about Deep Purple, then you truly don't understand anything about music, because even if all of the things you listed why Deep Purple are true, their songs OBVIOUSLY did not CONNECT with fans like Zep's did. Knowing you though, you'll argue with this with your opinion and dubious facts. |
john bodega 14.01.2010 22:26 |
Funky Horsie wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkApNqfg7tE This is seriously, the worst thing I've heard in my life.Ha!!! I love watching that when I'm on a bad-performances binge. I'd be the first to admit that Page was a rotter when it came to guitar playing, but I think the sound guy was just as culpable on that night. Like seriously, Bonzo Jr is bashing the HELL out of that kit .... and it just sounds like a lot of tin cans. What the hell, was anyone even doing sound that night? |
john bodega 14.01.2010 22:31 |
Oooh, Deep Purple discussion?? The problem with Purple is that they were only really worth listening to for those short years when they had both Gillan and Blackmore. You can fucking TOSS the rest of their catalogue, honestly. It's always amazed me how unlucky us fans of music are that the best collaborators are usually the ones who can't bloody stand each other. |
mike hunt 15.01.2010 10:23 |
cacatua wrote: Mike Hunt wrote: "Just look at behind the scenes of the video the great pretender. If that doesn't convince you the man was gay, then nothing will." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What does this say about Roger then?? roger is Just very happy, lol. |
Sebastian 15.01.2010 11:42 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote:Funky Horsie wrote: But what I will NEVER understand is why people talk about Zeppelin as the ultimate rock band when the band next door was FAR SUPERIOR. I'm talking about Deep Purple, of course. I mean... MUCH better singer. MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Paice is a much better drummer than Bonham. BLACKMORE IS SURELY BETTER THAN PAGE... but, then again, everyone is. Jon Lord is one GREAT player. The arrangements are better, the compositions, everything... I mean, it's like comparing the moon and Paul Rodgers' smegma. Seriously.Dude, you believe what you want about Jimmy Page being bad, and he did suck in that video, and that's good. If your criteria for being a good guitarist feature things Page is incapable of, fair enough. Lots would disagree with you, lots would agree. But if you honestly believe what you wrote about Deep Purple, then you truly don't understand anything about music, because even if all of the things you listed why Deep Purple are true, their songs OBVIOUSLY did not CONNECT with fans like Zep's did. Knowing you though, you'll argue with this with your opinion and dubious facts. DP songs connect with DP fans just as much as LZ songs connect with LZ fans, just as much as ABBA songs connect with ABBA fans, PF, U2, GD, GD, RS, BSB, SG, MtH, etc. |
john bodega 15.01.2010 12:17 |
Of course, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin have one thing in common; their most famous songs aren't their best by a long shot. |
Holly2003 15.01.2010 13:12 |
Funky Horsie wrote:Holly2003 wrote: Nope, what's sad is your admisson that you troll around internet forums trying to annoy people. Your attempt to bring Fred into this is embarrasing. You should stop now before you make a bigger fool of yourself. But of course you won't, because trolls like you crave attention, as you've admitted above.You don't seem to get the point. Do you have ADD or something? I like to argue with people about things I find interesting, I enjoy debating. I think that's what a forum is for. If think anyone who tries this is a "troll" then, fuck, you should join an Queen/Page/whatever adoration group, where no one will bother you. On the other hand, I think Jimmy speaks for himself: link This is seriously, the worst thing I've heard in my life. You know... someone who plays like that, just CAN NOT be one of the best guitar players ever. It's completely impossible. But I have. of course, also seen concerts of Led Zeppelin from the mid 70's and fuck... he's really awful. 80% of what he plays is just plain embarrasing. The other 20% is not THAT bad, just very sloppy. Jimmy Page CAN'T be considered a good guitar player. But what I will NEVER understand is why people talk about Zeppelin as the ultimate rock band when the band next door was FAR SUPERIOR. I'm talking about Deep Purple, of course. I mean... MUCH better singer. MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Paice is a much better drummer than Bonham. BLACKMORE IS SURELY BETTER THAN PAGE... but, then again, everyone is. Jon Lord is one GREAT player. The arrangements are better, the compositions, everything... I mean, it's like comparing the moon and Paul Rodgers' smegma. Seriously. I dont want your bloody life story, just skip to the bit where you went deaf, then developed Tourettes. |
The Real Wizard 15.01.2010 14:17 |
Funky Horsie wrote: This is seriously, the worst thing I've heard in my life.I agree, it is pretty brutal... probably the worst I've heard a 'professional' guitarist play. But he was fucked up on drugs and had barely played in 2 years. His amp gain was set pretty low too, so that didn't help at all. How about watching Whole Lotta Love from The Song Remains The Same instead of using Page's worst moment to prove your point? Zebonka12 wrote: The problem with Purple is that they were only really worth listening to for those short years when they had both Gillan and Blackmore. You can fucking TOSS the rest of their catalogue, honestly. Even 'Burn' !?? I think it's just as strong as In Rock and Machine Head. |
Sebastian 15.01.2010 15:27 |
> I agree, it is pretty brutal... probably the worst I've heard a 'professional' guitarist play. But he was fucked up on drugs and had barely played in 2 years. His amp gain was set pretty low too, so that didn't help at all. Drugs and lack of practice aren't an excuse. If after a couple of years without playing he's not able to do well on something like that (which isn't a walk in the park but is not a Grade-VIII piece either), then, again, he's definitely not a top guitarist. Not necessarily the worst one (he's had good moments too), not necessarily a bad one (he's had good moments too, loads of them), but definitely not one of the best ever. Not even close. |
The Real Wizard 15.01.2010 16:22 |
Sebastian wrote: Drugs and lack of practice aren't an excuse. Have you ever tried to play guitar in front of thousands of people high as a kite on heroin? |
Matias Merçeauroix 15.01.2010 16:36 |
Sebastian wrote: > I agree, it is pretty brutal... probably the worst I've heard a 'professional' guitarist play. But he was fucked up on drugs and had barely played in 2 years. His amp gain was set pretty low too, so that didn't help at all. Drugs and lack of practice aren't an excuse. If after a couple of years without playing he's not able to do well on something like that (which isn't a walk in the park but is not a Grade-VIII piece either), then, again, he's definitely not a top guitarist. Not necessarily the worst one (he's had good moments too), not necessarily a bad one (he's had good moments too, loads of them), but definitely not one of the best ever. Not even close. Who is worse then? |
Sebastian 15.01.2010 19:30 |
Sir GH wrote:Sebastian wrote: Drugs and lack of practice aren't an excuse.Have you ever tried to play guitar in front of thousands of people high as a kite on heroin? I've never done drugs and don't plan to. But loads of guitarists have played in front of thousands of people and haven't fucked up like that. Hence, Jimmy's not even sort of close to being one of the best guitarists ever. Guitarists worse than Page: Ringo, Bono, Adam Sandler... and probably several thousand players we've never heard about. |
Sheer Brass Neck 15.01.2010 19:51 |
Sebastian wrote:Sebastian, unless you're going for a posting record, read what he says, then what I say. He was talking about the ULTIMATE rock band (which most people, and even Funky Horsie) would say is Zeppelin. Zeppelin's songs connected with the general public in a way that Purple's never did. Zeppelin are gods, Purple are legends. Because, far more of their songs connected with far more people than Purple's did. Yes are better musicians (weird time signatures, amazing playing, etc.) than Queen (probably, so you don't pick that apart) but they didn't connect with people to the extent Queen did. So, whether Funky Horsie likes it or not, if Jimmy Page is a shitty guitarist, his shitty playing touched more people than whoever the fuck folowed Richie Blackmore and Richie Blackmore and Steve Morse together.Sheer Brass Neck wrote:DP songs connect with DP fans just as much as LZ songs connect with LZ fans, just as much as ABBA songs connect with ABBA fans, PF, U2, GD, GD, RS, BSB, SG, MtH, etc.Funky Horsie wrote: But what I will NEVER understand is why people talk about Zeppelin as the ultimate rock band when the band next door was FAR SUPERIOR. I'm talking about Deep Purple, of course. I mean... MUCH better singer. MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Paice is a much better drummer than Bonham. BLACKMORE IS SURELY BETTER THAN PAGE... but, then again, everyone is. Jon Lord is one GREAT player. The arrangements are better, the compositions, everything... I mean, it's like comparing the moon and Paul Rodgers' smegma. Seriously.Dude, you believe what you want about Jimmy Page being bad, and he did suck in that video, and that's good. If your criteria for being a good guitarist feature things Page is incapable of, fair enough. Lots would disagree with you, lots would agree. But if you honestly believe what you wrote about Deep Purple, then you truly don't understand anything about music, because even if all of the things you listed why Deep Purple are true, their songs OBVIOUSLY did not CONNECT with fans like Zep's did. Knowing you though, you'll argue with this with your opinion and dubious facts. |
Sebastian 15.01.2010 20:05 |
There's no way to measure which connects 'more'. One song could connect 'more' with one person than another with ten people. At the end of the day, again, both DP and LZ have gained millions of fans (or at least several hundred thousands), and they've earnt it. Same for Yes, PK, Queen, etc. I know you're not referring to the literal meaning of 'gods', but still: they're not gods. Again, they may have gained a larger fan base than other groups with way better musicians, but that doesn't make them gods. Or... is Usher's Confessions a way better album than Queen II? |
Sheer Brass Neck 15.01.2010 22:34 |
Sebastian wrote: There's no way to measure which connects 'more'. One song could connect 'more' with one person than another with ten people. ---there is. Called album sales and concert tickets. At the end of the day, again, both DP and LZ have gained millions of fans (or at least several hundred thousands), and they've earnt it. Same for Yes, PK, Queen, etc. ---sure, but Deep Purple was not as commercially successful as either Zeppelin or Queen. Why? Were their songs so good people didn't get them? The Ataris's have gained millions of fans, so have Barenaked Ladies. Haven't heard many people compare them to The Clash or The Beatles. Or... is Usher's Confessions a way better album than Queen II? ---not at all. But in his realm, Usher has established a track record. Zep's track record in rock (not even a big fan BTW) was stellar, delivering top albums with no singles promotion and little video exposure. They had a career, if not unmatched in rock, wasn't equalled by many. The Beatles, Queen and Zep stand alone as pop, pop/rock, heavy rock kings. |
Sebastian 16.01.2010 00:15 |
> there is. Called album sales and concert tickets. No, there are way too many variables. If a band sells a thousand tickets and another sells a thousand and one, it doesn't necessarily mean the latter's made a bigger impact. > sure, but Deep Purple was not as commercially successful as either Zeppelin or Queen. Again, way too many variables. Or is Body Language better than Liar, Long Away and Tie Your Mother Down? > Zep's track record in rock (not even a big fan BTW) was stellar, delivering top albums with no singles promotion and little video exposure. The promotion was precisely that: having no promotion (apparently). But then again, it doesn't at all mean their legacy is bigger than Deep Purple's. Bigger than Sum 41's, yes; bigger than Foo Fighter's, yes; bigger than Velvet Revolver's, yes. But bigger than DP's, not necessarily, and it can't be solely established by concert tickets and album sales. > They had a career, if not unmatched in rock, wasn't equalled by many. But one of the 'few' that got to the same level in terms of cultural impact is a band called Deep Purple. > The Beatles, Queen and Zep stand alone as pop, pop/rock, heavy rock kings. Kings yes, gods no, and they're not the only ones in that 'podium'. |
Sheer Brass Neck 16.01.2010 00:27 |
Sebastian, has Funky Horsie or Skip from the Hot Space thread hacked your account? Because I'll give you your Britney Spears has great music thing, but if you believe that Deep Purple are mentioned in the same breath as Led Zeppelin or even occupy the same level of the podium in the annals of rock, then you my friend are arguing for the sake of arguing. That is as ridiculous as me saying that Mister Mister is as big as The Beatles. I can, and I can defend it as you do, but that doesn't make it anywhere near true. You can argue variables 'til you're blue in the face. In your eyes, BTTL is better than any Queen album. Most people would have you locked up in the rubber room for saying that. We can stay here for the next 24 hours without sleep going back and forth, but I'll simply say that in the public consciousness (critics, journalists, record buyers, concert goers, radio programerrs including WLLZ in Detroit whose call letters were derisively known as We Love Led Zeppelin), Deep Purple is not in the same league. You can't make the criteria. History does, but in your world you move the goalposts if you don't like the response you're hearing. David Beckham = Deep purple. Led Zeppelin = Pele or Maradona. |
Sheer Brass Neck 16.01.2010 00:43 |
Plus, this is what I mea, which if we get back to Funky Horsie's unhappiness over why people think Led Zeppelin is the ULTIMATE hard rock band. They're the people's champs. On the Wikipedia page, there are 4809 words written about Deep Purple. There are 11210 written about Zeppelin. That's approximately 2.5 times the words. I would guess that's what I'd figure based on my know;edge that the ratio of Zep to Purple fans is: 2.5 to 1. I live in Canada, and on the classic rock station, and most here, Zep are the kings, Purple gets Highway Start, Smoke, Space Trucking and a few others. Sort of like Queen numbers wise, and Queen is nowhere near Zep's league for rep or radio play in North America. All I'm saying is that there has to be a criteria that defines where people stand. You don't seem to want to accept that. We can all agree Usain Bolt is the fastest man ever based on speed run in an organized event. That is indisputable. We can't say Brian May is a better or worse guitarist than Richie Blackmore because that can't be measured. They can both play, and both are unique but who is better, and what is the criteria, because music is not a competition. BUT, you can look at their careers as a whole of their work, and say May has influenced A, B, and C while Blackmore has influenced D, E and F. And then you can make a case based on their body of work, into which songs like Long Away then become a part, not because no one outside of this form knows that gem. You can't argue that Penelope Spheris is in the same league as George lucas or steven Spielberg, and to the man on the street, Deep Purple is Penelope Spjeris, the other two are Zeppelin. |
john bodega 16.01.2010 01:19 |
"if you believe that Deep Purple are mentioned in the same breath as Led Zeppelin or even occupy the same level of the podium in the annals of rock, then you my friend are arguing for the sake of arguing. That is as ridiculous as me saying that Mister Mister is as big as The Beatles. " This is utterly ridiculous. You're sounding like skip here. I'd say "quit while you're ahead" but it's no longer an option, so I'll cut it down to just "Quit". |
Sebastian 16.01.2010 01:26 |
Beckham or Spjeris: Europe Purple is, for the man on the street, like James Cameron or Hitchcock. Amount of words on Wiki is not a criterium for which band had a bigger impact. There are loads and loads and loads of bands not being in the same league as LZ in terms of fans, commercial success and influence. But amongst the very few who are, you can find DP. The fact I like BttL more than ANATO has nothing to do with this. And of course I can accept other POV's different to mine, but I won't simply 'gvie up' just because you say so. If you've got serious criteria (not amount of words on Wiki) such as album sales and stuff, please bring them here. And of course the case about Beatles and Mister Mister is way off... that one is Pele vs Beckham. This one isn't. Thousands of people think LZ>DP; thousands of people think DP>LZ; thousands of people think StH>SotW; thousands of people think SotW>StH. That's enough to see they're, in the public awareness, in the same league. |
john bodega 16.01.2010 02:38 |
Yeah, for one thing The Beatles were musicians. "Mister Mister" in a thread about bands?? That's just hyperbole at it's absolute nadir ... |
Matias Merçeauroix 16.01.2010 04:32 |
Sebastian wrote: Guitarists worse than Page: Ringo, Bono, Adam Sandler... QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ |
john bodega 16.01.2010 04:48 |
See, I'm just not sure of the criteria for evaluating guitarists... Any guitarist (ANY) will sound like Page if they try to play something they cannot play. When Page stopped fucking about and returned to his muscle memory, he was a serviceable blues player. (I can't be stuffed giving examples but a couple do exist). Perhaps a better way to judge a player would be to assess whether they have the common sense to play to their abilities, instead of embarrassing themselves in attempting something they couldn't even dream of playing? Everyone does that sometimes - it's how you discover your limitations - but the problem with Page is that he didn't learn from the process, he just kept aiming for the Moon but crashing into trees instead ... |
Sheer Brass Neck 16.01.2010 09:38 |
Tne Mister Mister mention was hyperbole. They are probably overall better musicians than The Beatles (the drummer has played with King Crimson countless times, the rest were LA studio guns like the guys in Toto), but honestly, unless Deep Purple's rep in Europe and Zep's is 180 degrees different than what it is on this side of the pond, DP do not even rank with Zep here. Not even close using any barometer of success. I will say that as a non-Purple fan, maybe they are thought of as peers of Zep in Europe, so I'm taking a North American view of things. And while these things are ridiculous and subjective, VH1 pegged Deep Purple as the 22nd greatest rock act of all time. Zep was number 1. Ultimately meaningless, but that is how the two bands popularity and stature is perceived here. Zeppelin are the heavy rock gods of all-time in North America. DP was a great band for a few years early in their career. Zep's reunion show was enormous news and the most anticipated concert event of the last decade for North American rock fans. Our local classic rock station had a month long promo with the winner getting seats and airfare to London from Toronto. Honestly, Deep Purple could reunite with the original lineup and it wouldn't cause a ripple compared to the Zep reunion tsunami. |
The Real Wizard 16.01.2010 13:11 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: Zep's reunion show was enormous news and the most anticipated concert event of the last decade for North American rock fans. Our local classic rock station had a month long promo with the winner getting seats and airfare to London from Toronto. Honestly, Deep Purple could reunite with the original lineup and it wouldn't cause a ripple compared to the Zep reunion tsunami. Finally, some sense in this topic. |
john bodega 16.01.2010 13:19 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I'm taking a North American view of things. And while these things are ridiculous and subjective, VH1 pegged Deep Purple as the 22nd greatest rock act of all time. Zep was number 1. Ultimately meaningless, but that is how the two bands popularity and stature is perceived here. Zeppelin are the heavy rock gods of all-time in North America. DP was a great band for a few years early in their career. Zep's reunion show was enormous news and the most anticipated concert event of the last decade for North American rock fans. Our local classic rock station had a month long promo with the winner getting seats and airfare to London from Toronto. Honestly, Deep Purple could reunite with the original lineup and it wouldn't cause a ripple compared to the Zep reunion tsunami.Ah.... I think I get what you were saying now. For some reason I had the impression you were more on about their place in rock history with regards to how well deserved it was, or how good the band was in the first place ... !! Silly me, I apologise. Indeed, I won't argue with what you're saying. I don't live in America and I never have but the impression I've got from talking to people from there is that Zeppelin is way more acknowledged. At least the Zep fans only have one lineup to talk about!! Haha. |
john bodega 16.01.2010 13:23 |
Sir GH wrote: Even 'Burn' !?? I think it's just as strong as In Rock and Machine Head.Mmmmmm..... I'm partial to some of the songs from that point onwards, don't get me wrong, but something always fouls the combination up for me. Usually it's the vocalist that throws me. I guess I'm just a Gillan/Blackmore slut! :D |
Sheer Brass Neck 16.01.2010 13:58 |
Yes, Zeb, we all tend to take the perspective of things from where we live, and there is always a North American bias to things that aren't big here. Oasis were unstoppable in Britain in the 90s, here they had the one or two good albums and last year were doing small halls in Canada with no buzz. Keane is an afterthought, most British bands aren't seeing the same success. America sees soccer as an odd little game that the rest of the world loves, but they haven't embraced it. So through that filter, and knowing the historic tastes of the North American heavy rock community, I'd say DP falls into the sphere of bands like Kansas, Jethro Tull, et al. Perceived to have had a nice little run, obviosuly very talented, but at least over here, just a page in the history of heavy rock, and the book would be a Zeppelin book. Of course North America isn't the world and the perception of the two bands may be flipped elsewhere so sorry if I was giving world rankings ;) |
Sebastian 16.01.2010 14:11 |
I don't argue that more people would be familiar with 'Led Zeppelin' than 'Deep Purple', but to say one's Pele and the other's Beckham... And indeed, there are 193 countries in the world besides Canada and the States. |
Sheer Brass Neck 16.01.2010 15:10 |
Sebastian wrote: I don't argue that more people would be familiar with 'Led Zeppelin' than 'Deep Purple', but to say one's Pele and the other's Beckham... And indeed, there are 193 countries in the world besides Canada and the States.I apologize Sebastian, bad comparison. Check out this link. link After you've seen it, upon further reflection, I should have said Zep is Pele, Purple is Landon Donovan. At least in North America, Deep Purple would appear to be irrelevant judging by sales, which equates to radio play, concert tix sold and where they stand in the public consciousness. Which is slightly below Scorpions, slightly above Korn or Little River Band. And yes, there are plenty of other countries besides Canada and the US, which is why I stated my own experience of where zi live. Unless DP has sold 100 million more albums in these markets, they aren't in Zep's league in the eyes of world, musicianship, songwriting etc. be damned. |
Sebastian 16.01.2010 15:21 |
Speaking of which, I remember a friend of a friend's, who once said something along the lines of 'I like Deep Purple, except for those silly keyboards'. No comment... |
Sheer Brass Neck 16.01.2010 16:02 |
So your friend made a foolish comment about DP, and you have no comment. I'd like you to comment on the fact that Funky Horsie said he didn't understand how LZ was considered the ultimate heavy rock band (he's Canadian too, so Sir GH, FH and I are all in agreement that LZ is king in N.A.) and I said that their work connected with more people's than DP, which started a discussion of semantics about connection. Then I provided statistics which shows that LZ's sales (and all of the connecting factors, forgetting their mythology) dwarf everybody's sales in North America, which makes them the ultimate heavy rock band which pisses off Funky Horsie and you. So if DP don't even register over here, how am I to square your comments and his that they are equals or better (again in N.A.)? I say they don't have enough songs that connected to people in the way LZ did. They may have been too prog rock with the keyboards your friend hated. They may not have had a charismatic front man a la Plant or Mercury. But if you are positing that they are in LZ's league (at least here) you can offer nothing than your opinion. Seb, I just believe that I could tell you that sirloin steak is the most popular meal for Texans (no idea if it is), give you stats and stories, and you'd debate it by saying you once had sushi in El Paso that your friends and you agreed upon was the greatest meal ever, and no one could have a connection with food like you did, which means sushi is arguably the equal of sirloin steak in Texas. |
Sebastian 17.01.2010 02:40 |
> I'd like you to comment on the fact that Funky Horsie said he didn't understand how LZ was considered the ultimate heavy rock band (he's Canadian too Funky Horsie is Canadian? Since when is Argentina part of Canada? Is it called South Saskatchewan or Nova Nova Scotia? > Then I provided statistics which shows that LZ's sales (and all of the connecting factors, forgetting their mythology) dwarf everybody's sales in North America, which makes them the ultimate heavy rock band which pisses off Funky Horsie and you. I'm not pissed off about that. I disagreed (and still do) with your comment about DP not getting to people's consciousness as LZ did, and I still stand by it. You provided stats, good ones, but as I wrote earlier, there are too many variables. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but if you want my two pence, here they are: DP are on the same league as LZ in terms of public's consciousness. > So if DP don't even register over here, how am I to square your comments and his that they are equals or better (again in N.A.)? I didn't mean NA, BTW. > I say they don't have enough songs that connected to people in the way LZ did. Which, as I said, can't be proved by sales (which result from way too many factors). We're gonna have to agree to disagree or write ten more posts each, with the same result. > They may have been too prog rock with the keyboards your friend hated. Not my friend, but a friend's friend. And there are loads of people who adore those keyboards. That's precisely my point: DP get to some people's consciousness, LZ get to other (and in some cases the same) people's consciousness, etc. > But if you are positing that they are in LZ's league (at least here) you can offer nothing than your opinion. I didn't reduce my comment to North America (which by the way includes Mexico too, not just the States and Canada - in fact, it also includes Guatemala, etc. if you don't split them as Central America), and I didn't reduce it to sales for the reasons already explained. > Seb, I just believe that I could tell you that sirloin steak is the most popular meal for Texans (no idea if it is), give you stats and stories Both stats and stories are the result of (broken record again) 'way too many variables'. > and you'd debate it by saying you once had sushi in El Paso that your friends and you agreed upon was the greatest meal ever First of all, I hate sushi. Second of all, I should've made some sort of survey when I went to Houston ca five years ago - it would've come in handy now ;) > and no one could have a connection with food like you did, which means sushi is arguably the equal of sirloin steak in Texas. It's not the same case. SotW and HS are just as overplayed and famous as StH and BD, even if loads of people wouldn't know the name of the band (in both cases). The 'sushi vs stake' case you're referring to is, again, like Beckham vs Pele, like Mister Mister vs The Beatles, but not like DP vs LZ. |
Amazon 17.01.2010 07:11 |
I've been away from the site for a few days. Sebastian, I don't really have the patience to go through your post with a fine-tooth comb, so I simply responded to the first part. Sebastian wrote:" > Hitler ordered the deaths of millions of people. Of course he did. Did I say otherwise?" I never said that you did. "> He wanted to kill Jews, and upon assuming power, he made it a reality. Not really. He wanted to have Jews killed (not the same), and upon assuming power, he made it a reality. His dream was for the race to be 'cleansed', not for him to commit the murders."Again, you don't need to press the trigger to kill someone. "And by the way his dictatorship resulted in the death of loads of non-Jewish people, including African immigrants or descendents, homosexuals, etc." True, but Jews were the primary targets and victims. "> If he hadn't gone to power, there is an excellent chance that those people would still be alive. There you're quite off: first of all, many of those people would be over 80 by now , and comparatively very few people actually make it to that age. Also, consider diseases, other wars, accidents, etc. Of course (before you jump into some ridiculous conclusion), I'm not at all defending the nazis or saying that it was ok because they'd die some day anyway." Oh my god. You really are predantic. Of course, I don't mean that they would be alive right now. I meant that if Hitler hadn't come along, millions of people wouldn't have been murdered. You don't have to take everything people say so literally. I could have said there's an excellent chance they would have lived, it doesn't mean that some of them wouldn't have died in other ways or they would be alive right now. If you're focusing on the word still, perhaps you should ask yourself what the logical meaning is, not the literal meaning. "Your sentence could be rephrased to 'if he hadn't gone to power, there is an excellent chance that the vast majority of those people wouldn't have been murdered'." No. I'm not going to structure my sentences on a Queen site so as to please the more literally minded. I will write to my best ability what I mean, and people need to use common sense. I'm not writing an essay. We are unlikely to ever agree on whether Hitler killed people or had them killed. You say that he had them killed, however IMO he absolutely killed them. |
john bodega 17.01.2010 07:19 |
As someone whose grandfather on one side was on a RAF bomber crew, dropping bombs on the country of my other grandfather who was working in the German telecom of the day, I can happily say I have no regrets about World War 2. Shit happened, as it does, but this isn't fantasy football we're talking about. It's not even cool to debate this sort of thing; it happened, it made the world we live in today, so sharrup. Besides which, we stopped talking about Hitler pages ago. |
Amazon 17.01.2010 07:23 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "Besides which, we stopped talking about Hitler pages ago." True, however I was meaning to respond to Sebastian, but I wasn't able to until now. Plus, the discussions on this site move at such a fast pace, I'm still not used to it. |
Amazon 17.01.2010 07:53 |
Regarding Deep Purple, I don't think there's any comparison between them and Led Zeppelin. Purple are awesome, or at least were awesome when they were at their peak, but IMO they don't come close to the brilliance that was Zeppelin. Gillan? A great great vocalist, but among heavy metal/hard rock vocalists, I've always preferred Plant and Axl (I don't think I would necessarily describe Freddie as a heavy metal/hard rock vocalist since Queen crossed so many genres). John Paul Jones was IMO just about the greatest bass player of all time, while *Page was IMO a vastly superior guitarist to Blackmore. I also think that Zeppelin were better writers, were better produced, and produced vastly superior songs. In comparison between their most famous songs, Smoke in the Water is wonderful, but Stairway remains IMO among the very greatest rock songs of all time and is flawless. *Regarding Page, I want to make a few comments: 1)People talk about how sloppy Page was, but he wasn't always sloppy. He was nowhere near as sloppy in the early days before he started taking alot of drugs, and it's unlikely that he would have been such a successful session musician who was the first choice to replace Clapton in the Yardbirds if he truly was that sloppy. 2)Technique isn't everything. Emotion, originilality, creativity, excitement, knowing what to play and what not to (in relations to the song) and making sure that one is servicing the song is also important. Malmsteen may have great technique, but I could never describe him as a great guitarist because not only does his music come across to me as merely technical wanking but it is also IMO incredibly forgettable (plus, it's all basically the same). If a guitarist is original, creative, services the song, plays the right note in relation to the song, and makes you feel what he is playing or alternatively makes you feel awe, then IMO he's a great guitarist. Page does all of that, and so, I would describe him as not simply a great guitarist, one of the ten greatest of all time. (Incidentally, I think that Brian does all this as well). 3)Music is there to be heard. Dazed & Confused is my favourite Zeppelin song, but Stairway features my favourite solo, and I would rather listen to the Stairway solo a million times than a solo by some technically superior but IMO actually inferior guitarists once, such as Malmsteen. |
Matias Merçeauroix 17.01.2010 09:59 |
But, you see... link Malmsteen only made 4 or 5 records, the rest is more of the same. But fuck, can he play! Before he turned into a generic neoclassical shredder, he sure wrote some pretty great tunes. But besides that, he played them really great, not neccesarily fast. You can't say he's not original but Stairway to Heaven is... you have to be kidding. Malmsteen can be a Bach-ripoff and everything but Stairway to Heaven has that OBVIOUS "reinassance" vibe to it... how can THAT be original? Besides, it repeats the same progression over and over again. Have you heard the instrumental version? |
john bodega 17.01.2010 10:00 |
Well it's really very simple. Blackmore did things that Page could never do, but Page never did anything that Blackmore couldn't do. It comes down to this : *Do you like this musician or not?* As long as you like an artist, then you never need to defend that choice. Their work pleases you, it has done the job. Ignore anyone who complains because they're a cunt. |
cacatua 17.01.2010 11:49 |
Zebonka12 wrote: "Ignore anyone who complains because they're a cunt." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hey Peckerhead I resent that!! :oP)))))))))))))))))))))))))) |
queenside 17.01.2010 12:45 |
from best guitar work by brian may this topic became purple vs zeppelin. i like both bands. i'm from croatia and i have to say that here purple are more loved than zeppelin and smoke on the water is more famous and well known than stairway to heaven |
Sebastian 17.01.2010 14:44 |
> Again, you don't need to press the trigger to kill someone. Sure, and I respect that POV, which you didn't do when claimed mine was 'totally and absolutely wrong'. > True, but Jews were the primary targets and victims. Which is something I'll never be able to understand. > Oh my god. You really are predantic. Actually, I'm not. By definition, pedantic is something completely different. > Of course, I don't mean that they would be alive right now. TBF, some of them would. > You don't have to take everything people say so literally. Of course I don't, but if I want to, I'm not hurting anybody. BTW, I don't take 'everything' literally, but some things I do. It's my prerogative. > No. I'm not going to structure my sentences on a Queen site so as to please the more literally minded I didn't say 'you've got to rephrase', I said 'your sentence could be rephrased to...', and it could. > I will write to my best ability what I mean, and people need to use common sense. I'm not writing an essay. You don't need to write an essay to be clear. BTW, I'm not going around correcting people's style, I did it with you and with that particular sentence because you applied such yardstick when you said my POV was 'completely and absolutely wrong'. Had you respected a person whose opinion differs (and as you can see, the bottomline is that I also think those crimes were awful), I wouldn't have cared about your choice of words, and the incorrect use of 'still' in that case. People make mistakes (of course, me included, loads of them), and I couldn't care less about that, except in some cases, like this one. > We are unlikely to ever agree on whether Hitler killed people or had them killed. You say that he had them killed, however IMO he absolutely killed them. Yes, and both POV's are respectable. Neither is 'totally and absolutely wrong'. > it happened, it made the world we live in today, so sharrup. I know that's not the topic of the thread, but there I slightly disagree: the present's not a result of the past, it's the next step, which isn't quite the same. > John Paul Jones was IMO just about the greatest bass player of all time Not even sort of close. > while *Page was IMO a vastly superior guitarist to Blackmore Not even sort of close. > In comparison between their most famous songs, Smoke in the Water is wonderful, but Stairway remains IMO among the very greatest rock songs of all time and is flawless. Actually, it's not flawless since it does have mistakes (flaws). It's a great, marvellous, wonderful, brilliant song, but it's not flawless. > He was nowhere near as sloppy in the early days before he started taking alot of drugs, and it's unlikely that he would have been such a successful session musician who was the first choice to replace Clapton in the Yardbirds if he truly was that sloppy. IMO, he was 'the next best thing' for what the Yardbirds needed. Which doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't sloppy. > Technique isn't everything. Emotion, originilality, creativity, excitement, knowing what to play and what not to (in relations to the song) and making sure that one is servicing the song is also important. But all those things (emotion, originality...) also have technique. Page excelled in some, not in others. And when it comes strictly to playing guitar, he was good, but not even close to one of the best. > is also IMO incredibly forgettable (plus, it's all basically the same) The forgettable point is completely subjective, it can't be measured. But the 'basically the same' bit can be measured and no: it's not basically the same. > If a guitarist is original, creative, services the song, plays the right note in relation to the song, and makes you feel what he is playing or alternatively makes you feel awe, then IMO he's a great guitarist Subjectively, I could even say Fred's the best guitarist ever because his six chords in CLTCL make me feel in cloud nine (they don't, but just hypothetically speaking)... that thing can never be measured. But objectively speaking, there are loads of parametres to assess a guitarist's ability. And Jimmy, while very good, is not even close to one of the best ever. > (Incidentally, I think that Brian does all this as well). But Brian does it playing a hell of a lot better. > Music is there to be heard. Dazed & Confused is my favourite Zeppelin song, but Stairway features my favourite solo, and I would rather listen to the Stairway solo a million times than a solo by some technically superior but IMO actually inferior guitarists once, such as Malmsteen. If it's technically superior, it's not an inferior guitarist. > Malmsteen only made 4 or 5 records, the rest is more of the same. But fuck, can he play! And he's a wonderful composer too. Or at least he was. > You can't say he's not original but Stairway to Heaven is... you have to be kidding. Malmsteen can be a Bach-ripoff and everything but Stairway to Heaven has that OBVIOUS "reinassance" vibe to it... how can THAT be original? Actually, everything 'original' took its roots from something else. There's always a proto-idea... anyway, if Rising Force isn't original because of the progression then neither is Stairway: chromatic line-cliché (thousands of songs had that before), i > V > VII > IV > VI > i prograssion (also quite generic), the solo's basically pentatonic exercises ... the song's excellent and everything, but it's not more original than things Malmsteen did. Something can be un-original and still great anyway. > Well it's really very simple. Blackmore did things that Page could never do, but Page never did anything that Blackmore couldn't do. I disagree: for a great guitarist like Blackmore, it must be really difficult to play that sloppily. It's like asking the Berlin Philharmonic to play like The Ramones. > from best guitar work by brian may this topic became purple vs zeppelin. i like both bands. i'm from croatia and i have to say that here purple are more loved than zeppelin and smoke on the water is more famous and well known than stairway to heaven There you go: the world's not just the States and Canada. |
Holly2003 17.01.2010 15:02 |
Here's a list of countries that are also not the United States or Canada. 1 Afghanistan 2 Akrotiri 3 Albania 4 Algeria 5 American Samoa 6 Andorra 7 Angola 8 Anguilla 9 Antarctica 10 Antigua and Barbuda 11 Argentina 12 Armenia 13 Aruba 14 Ashmore and Cartier Islands 15 Australia 16 Austria 17 Azerbaijan 18 Bahamas, The 19 Bahrain 20 Bangladesh 21 Barbados 22 Bassas da India 23 Belarus 24 Belgium 25 Belize 26 Benin 27 Bermuda 28 Bhutan 29 Bolivia 30 Bosnia and Herzegovina 31 Botswana 32 Bouvet Island 33 Brazil 34 British Indian Ocean Territory 35 British Virgin Islands 36 Brunei 37 Bulgaria 38 Burkina Faso 39 Burma 40 Burundi 41 Cambodia 42 Cameroon 43 44 Cape Verde 45 Cayman Islands 46 Central African Republic 47 Chad 48 Chile 49 China 50 Christmas Island 51 Clipperton Island 52 Cocos (Keeling) Islands 53 Colombia 54 Comoros 55 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 56 Congo, Republic of the 57 Cook Islands 58 Coral Sea Islands 59 Costa Rica 60 Cote d'Ivoire 61 Croatia 62 Cuba 63 Cyprus 64 Czech Republic 65 Denmark 66 Dhekelia 67 Djibouti 68 Dominica 69 Dominican Republic 70 Ecuador 71 Egypt 72 El Salvador 73 Equatorial Guinea 74 Eritrea 75 Estonia 76 Ethiopia 77 Europa Island 78 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) 79 Faroe Islands 80 Fiji 81 Finland 82 France 83 French Guiana 84 French Polynesia 85 French Southern and Antarctic Lands 86 Gabon 87 Gambia, The 88 Gaza Strip 89 Georgia 90 Germany 91 Ghana 92 Gibraltar 93 Glorioso Islands 94 Greece 95 Greenland 96 Grenada 97 Guadeloupe 98 Guam 99 Guatemala 100 Guernsey 101 Guinea 102 Guinea-Bissau 103 Guyana 104 Haiti 105 Heard Island and McDonald Islands 106 Holy See (Vatican City) 107 Honduras 108 Hong Kong 109 Hungary 110 Iceland 111 India 112 Indonesia 113 Iran 114 Iraq 115 Ireland 116 Isle of Man 117 Israel 118 Italy 119 Jamaica 120 Jan Mayen 121 Japan 122 Jersey 123 Jordan 124 Juan de Nova Island 125 Kazakhstan 126 Kenya 127 Kiribati 128 Korea, North 129 Korea, South 130 Kuwait 131 Kyrgyzstan 132 Laos 133 Latvia 134 Lebanon 135 Lesotho 136 Liberia 137 Libya 138 Liechtenstein 139 Lithuania 140 Luxembourg 141 Macau 142 Macedonia 143 Madagascar 144 Malawi 145 Malaysia 146 Maldives 147 Mali 148 Malta 149 Marshall Islands 150 Martinique 151 Mauritania 152 Mauritius 153 Mayotte 154 Mexico 155 Micronesia, Federated States of 156 Moldova 157 Monaco 158 Mongolia 159 Montserrat 160 Morocco 161 Mozambique 162 Namibia 163 Nauru 164 Navassa Island 165 Nepal 166 Netherlands 167 Netherlands Antilles 168 New Caledonia 169 New Zealand 170 Nicaragua 171 Niger 172 Nigeria 173 Niue 174 Norfolk Island 175 Northern Mariana Islands 176 Norway 177 Oman 178 Pakistan 179 Palau 180 Panama 181 Papua New Guinea 182 Paracel Islands 183 Paraguay 184 Peru 185 Philippines 186 Pitcairn Islands 187 Poland 188 Portugal 189 Puerto Rico 190 Qatar 191 Reunion 192 Romania 193 Russia 194 Rwanda 195 Saint Helena 196 Saint Kitts and Nevis 197 Saint Lucia 198 Saint Pierre and Miquelon 199 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 200 Samoa 201 San Marino 202 Sao Tome and Principe 203 Saudi Arabia 204 Senegal 205 Serbia and Montenegro 206 Seychelles 207 Sierra Leone 208 Singapore 209 Slovakia 210 Slovenia 211 Solomon Islands 212 Somalia 213 South Africa 214 South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands 215 Spain 216 Spratly Islands 217 Sri Lanka 218 Sudan 219 Suriname 220 Svalbard 221 Swaziland 222 Sweden 223 Switzerland 224 Syria 225 Taiwan 226 Tajikistan 227 Tanzania 228 Thailand 229 Timor-Leste 230 Togo 231 Tokelau 232 Tonga 233 Trinidad and Tobago 234 Tromelin Island 235 Tunisia 236 Turkey 237 Turkmenistan 238 Turks and Caicos Islands 239 Tuvalu 240 Uganda 241 Ukraine 242 United Arab Emirates 243 United Kingdom 244 245 Uruguay 246 Uzbekistan 247 Vanuatu 248 Venezuela 249 Vietnam 250 Virgin Islands 251 Wake Island 252 Wallis and Futuna 253 West Bank 254 Western Sahara 255 Yemen 256 Zambia 257 Zimbabwe |
Sheer Brass Neck 17.01.2010 15:06 |
Still haven't answered my question Seb. Purple and Smoke could mean SFA in Myanmar and Bolivia while Zep and Stairway rule there. Does that mean the world is bigger than Croatia and the country you live, therefore your opinion is wrong? Of course not. You selectively choose arguments to fit your position without accepting anybody's else's POV, even if they are fact based. So forgetting things that the world has used for years (record sales, concert tix sales, radio airplay, position in the eyse of the community), what crtiteria OTHER than how you feel can make you state with certainty that DP is even in the same league as LZ? Your argument that Croatia siding with DP is meaningless. Croatia is zero in tems of influence on the rock market, population, sales etc. Zero. So give me your criteria for determining this, because other than your opinion, which is no greater or worse than mine, you can't give any valid facts as to how DP is regarded as the ultimate heavy rock band. Not one. |
Sebastian 17.01.2010 15:30 |
> Still haven't answered my question Seb. Which is your question anyway? > Purple and Smoke could mean SFA in Myanmar and Bolivia while Zep and Stairway rule there. Maybe. Which brings again my 'the world has more countries than the States and Canada'. > Does that mean the world is bigger than Croatia and the country you live, therefore your opinion is wrong? Do you even know which is my opinion? Seriously, because I get the impression you don't. > You selectively choose arguments to fit your position without accepting anybody's else's POV Again, I can accept other people's POV (maybe the one who can't is not me, but you). What I disagreed with, from the start, was something you wrote about DP not being able to get to people's consciousness in the way LZ did. And I still disagree with it because: - DP get to DP fans in the same way LZ get to LZ fans, GD to GD fans, etc. - Sales result from too many variables, hence, this is not 'fact-based'. I also disagreed with your use of the word 'gods' to refer to LZ, because they're simply not. And of course I know you didn't mean 'gods' as in 'almighty supernatural creatures' (or maybe you did?), but still. > even if they are fact based. Saying LZ outsold DP is fact-based; saying LZ get to people's consciousness more than DP is not because ... again, too many variables. > So forgetting things that the world has used for years (record sales, concert tix sales, radio airplay, position in the eyse of the community) Record sales can be measured, but they result from too many variables. Same for concert tickets. Radio airplay... actually, that one's a lot more difficult to establish. Position in the eyes of community: unless you've asked each person on the planet, can only be speculated. My point is: judging by the impact DP and LZ have had on society, which stems from loads and loads of things (from something as simple as seeing Angus Young playing SotW in TaaHM), I think LZ and DP are in the same level. Agree? Fine. Disagree? Fine. > Croatia is zero in tems of influence on the rock market, population, sales etc. Zero. No, not zero. And then again, I don't mean same league in the rock market, I mean same league, full stop. Agree? Fine. Disagree? Fine. But Croatia is a country, and it counts as much as the States, Russia, Burkina Faso or Papua New Guinea. > So give me your criteria for determining this Influence, covers, use of songs in popular culture, etc. According to all of that, they're in the same league IMO, same as the Stones, Queen, Beatles and a couple more. They're the 'Peles' and 'Maradonas' of your metaphor. The 'Beckhams' would be people like Blink-182, Foo Fighters or Placebo. But not DP. > because other than your opinion, which is no greater or worse than mine, you can't give any valid facts as to how DP is regarded as the ultimate heavy rock band. I never said DP are regarded as the ultimate rock band, I said they get to their fans' consciousness just as much as LZ to their own, etc. And I said that they're also in that podium (their 'Machine Head' era stuff, at least). And I still stand y both. > Not one. So? Why are you so interested in whether I provide data on DP's impact or not? I still stand by my point: they're in the same league as LZ in terms of cultural impact (which can't be measured by record sales, BTW). Agree? Fine. Disagree? Fine. |
Holly2003 17.01.2010 15:31 |
I'd like to broaden the discussion. These are the top ten planets on which Deep Purple is less well known than Zeppelin. On planets marked with a *, Purple are completely unknown: 1. Klingon home world (aka Kronos) 2. Alderaan 3. Earth 4. Planet of the Apes* 5. Altair 4 6. Krypton* 7. Kobol 8. Mongo* 9. Andoria 10. Tatooine Here are the top ten planets (out of an infinite list) in which it is unacceptable to compare Jimmy Page to Hitler 1. Vulcan 2. Earth 3. Pyrrus 4. Tralfamadore 5. Htrae 6. Thargoidia 7. Gallifrey 8.Trantor 9. Cygnus Alpha 10. Romulus |
Sheer Brass Neck 17.01.2010 15:54 |
Agree to disagree Seb. However, and only because I have near total recall, I will take you to task over this. When you say, "position in the eyes of community: unless you've asked each person on the planet, can only be speculated", you once stated with great certainty in another thread about Brian's ability as a guitarist, that Brian couldn't play the solo for Paradise City. I can't argue with this, you are certain of your opinion, as you are stating that so and so wrote this part for the song, and use past track records to "prove" your point. I love reading that stuff, it's fascinatng and a great help to the board. But what you are saying is that Roger, for example, couldn't have written Bohemian Rhapsody because he wrote simpler songs, or John couldn't have come up with the harmony guitars on Misfire as nothing would indicate he could do that. But that proves nothing. Unless you see Brian attempt to play Paradise City, and fail, your proofs are as valid or as meaningless as my sales facts and figures, or perceptions what the community at large feels about the two groups. I'm not trying to change your mind, but as you say, BTTL in your humble opinion is better than any Queen album. To which the man on the street would "What's a back to the light?" BTTL, in the biggest combined established rock market in the world, is unknown. Queen are monstrous. Again, sales are but a factor and to me Long Away is infinitely superior to AOBTD, but you can't dismiss popularity as a factor, or the factor in determining a group's stature. I detest Madonna, but she is a successful influential pop artist over the last quarter of a century. Over here, Kylie Minogue had a single or two then faded away. She is nothing compared to Madonna, but I understand as big in other territories. But you can't dismiss North America as a market (too big) and cherry pick to say Kylie's bigger in Germany or Czech Republic so that means they are equal artists. bigger in Deep Purple, in the biggest established rock market in the world is comparatively unknown compared to Zep using any criteria that can be accepted, apart from feelings. And again, I'm not a Zep fan, just sharing the view from this side of the pond. |
cacatua 17.01.2010 16:31 |
Holly2003 wrote: I'd like to broaden the discussion. These are the top ten planets on which Deep Purple is less well known than Zeppelin. On planets marked with a *, Purple are completely unknown: 1. Klingon home world (aka Kronos) 2. Alderaan 3. Earth 4. Planet of the Apes* 5. Altair 4 6. Krypton* 7. Kobol 8. Mongo* 9. Andoria 10. Tatooine Here are the top ten planets (out of an infinite list) in which it is unacceptable to compare Jimmy Page to Hitler 1. Vulcan 2. Earth 3. Pyrrus 4. Tralfamadore 5. Htrae 6. Thargoidia 7. Gallifrey 8.Trantor 9. Cygnus Alpha 10. Romulus Don't forget Giedi Prime, Arrakis and Caladan! |
queenside 17.01.2010 16:59 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: Still haven't answered my question Seb. Purple and Smoke could mean SFA in Myanmar and Bolivia while Zep and Stairway rule there. Does that mean the world is bigger than Croatia and the country you live, therefore your opinion is wrong? Of course not. You selectively choose arguments to fit your position without accepting anybody's else's POV, even if they are fact based. So forgetting things that the world has used for years (record sales, concert tix sales, radio airplay, position in the eyse of the community), what crtiteria OTHER than how you feel can make you state with certainty that DP is even in the same league as LZ? Your argument that Croatia siding with DP is meaningless. Croatia is zero in tems of influence on the rock market, population, sales etc. Zero. So give me your criteria for determining this, because other than your opinion, which is no greater or worse than mine, you can't give any valid facts as to how DP is regarded as the ultimate heavy rock band. Not one. POV didn't wrote this about croatia, i did. i know croatia is very small market but i was writing about the country where i live and i'm hanging with a lot of people listening to rock music and most of them prefer purple over zeppelin. again, i know it doesn't mean anything, i'm just saying it and i'm not trying to prove and give you any valid facts as to how DP is regarded as the ultimate heavy rock band. i won't get drag in this pointless conversation purple vs zeppelin. what's the point? i like more band x, you y and one of them is more commercially successful and what does that mean? nothing, i'm not judging bands by their commercial success, i'm judging them by the way they make me feel, by their music |
Sheer Brass Neck 17.01.2010 18:04 |
I agree and understand what you're saying, Queenside, and in no way am I dismissing the merits of any country. Your point of how Purple's music makes you feel is how Purple and Zeppelin's music makes people feel in North America, only exponentially more people feel that way about Zep than Purple. And honestly, as I don't like either of these bands a whole lot ;), I'm not trying to change anyone's minds. But their no disputing whatsoever, personal opinions aside, of the stature of these two bands in North America. Zeppelin is like Star Wars, Purple like a great indie film. Both have merits, but no one in their right mind over here would even think of comparing the two. Zep and Aerosmith, Zep and AC/DC? Sure over here. Zep and Purple? Not a conversation at all, and that doesn't diminish Purple's abilities or career, they are truly a middle of pack band here, end of story. End of my story here too! |
Sebastian 17.01.2010 18:22 |
> you once stated with great certainty in another thread about Brian's ability as a guitarist, that Brian couldn't play the solo for Paradise City. If I did, then I take it back. There may be some GnR songs out of Brian's reach, but PC isn't one of them. > as you are stating that so and so wrote this part for the song, and use past track records to "prove" your point. Not to 'prove', but to back it up. As I state in : 'All of the information found in this website has been carfefully checked and verified as much as possible. It still does NOT mean it's a 100% error-proof research (even the people who were there make mistakes about stuff) but it does ensure that it's way more than mere speculation and guessing' > But what you are saying is that Roger, for example, couldn't have written Bohemian Rhapsody because he wrote simpler songs, It's actually much more than 'simple' and 'complex' songs. At the end of the day, a person's writing style (be it music, poetry, essay, etc) is unique and particular, like one's voice, accent (idiolect), scent or fingerprint. As in detective investigations, evidence is the ultimate 'proof' (note the inverted commas), but of course there's always an error margin when it's being analysed by humans (because us humans are liable to make mistakes). As it's been said earlier, the fact it cannot be a 100% error-proof definitive research doesn't mean it hasn't got to be done; and the fact it's not an absolute certainty doesn't mean it's mere and pure speculation. > or John couldn't have come up with the harmony guitars on Misfire Actually, he could, and he did. > as nothing would indicate he could do that. It's much more than that agin. And again, there are too many variables. > But that proves nothing. Actually, it does, it proves a lot. It doesn't prove everything, it can't. But 'it doesn't prove everything' is different to 'it proves nothing'. > Unless you see Brian attempt to play Paradise City, and fail, your proofs are as valid or as meaningless as my sales facts and figures It's a different case: if you find A sold 1,001 and B sold 1,000 it proves A outsold B, full stop. But it doesn't necessarily prove A is deeper in the public's mind than B. If May struggled to sing a tenor C and only barely hit a D or E, then he definitely couldn't get to the soprano A, full stop. If Page couldn't play some of his own stuff well, then he wouldn't be able to master Vai's solos, full stop. But neither necessarily proves May's a 'worse' singer than Roger (for instance) or that Jimmy's shite (IMO, he isn't). > or perceptions what the community at large feels about the two groups. I'm not devalidating your point, I'm saying I disagree, and in fact, this is not an absolute matter. Let me use another example: A says Don't Try So Hard has a higher peak note than The Show Must Go On B says The Show Must Go On has a higher peak note than Don't Try So Hard If they don't peak on the same note (they don't), then one of them is wrong and that's it, full stop. In that case, BTW, B is wrong. A says DTSH is better than TSMGO, B says the opposite. In that case there's no way to tell, and neither A or B are absolutely right or absolutely wrong. If you claim LZ's outsold DP, it's like the higher note thing: you're either right or you're not (and you are right, BTW). If you claim LZ gets to people's consciousness more than DP, there are (sorry for the broken record) 'too many variables', and it becomes like the 'better' thing. > BTTL, in the biggest combined established rock market in the world, is unknown. Queen are monstrous. Yes but it's a totally different case: Deep Purple are NOT unknown, neither are their signature songs. If I were to say 'Foo Fighters are in the same league as Aerosmith (regarding how famous they are and how much they've influenced pop culture)' that'd be preposterous. That would be Beckham vs Pele, or (I forgot the name of the director or filmmaker you wrote about earlier) vs Spielberg. But DP vs LZ is not Beckham vs Pele, it's Bobby Charlton vs George Best ... for some people, Charlton is way bigger than Best; for others, it's the other way around. In certain territories, one's more famous than the other, in others it's the other way around, in others it's fairly equal. Same for DP vs LZ: in some parts of the world, DP are deeper in people's consciousness, LZ are, and in others it's more or less an equal influence with loads of bands covering both of their catalogue, loads of statios playing both Stairway and Smoke with more or less the same frequency, etc. That, to me, is 'being in the same league'. Agree? Fine. Disagree? Fine. > Again, sales are but a factor and to me Long Away is infinitely superior to AOBTD, but you can't dismiss popularity as a factor, or the factor in determining a group's stature. I'm not dismissing popularity as a factor, I'm saying that DP and LZ are in the same league (unlike AOBTD and LA). > I detest Madonna, but she is a successful influential pop artist over the last quarter of a century. She's got some good stuff, but I also dislike her in general terms. > Over here, Kylie Minogue had a single or two then faded away. She is nothing compared to Madonna, but I understand as big in other territories. Yes, but in that case Madonna is still a much bigger figure. That is Pele vs Beckham. DP vs LZ isn't. > But you can't dismiss North America as a market (too big) Actually, I can, but I'd be wrong in doing so. > and cherry pick to say Kylie's bigger in Germany or Czech Republic so that means they are equal artists. Well, yes: the world is much more than the States and Canada. > bigger in Deep Purple, in the biggest established rock market in the world is comparatively unknown compared to Zep using any criteria that can be accepted, apart from feelings. I didn't say 'DP are equal to LZ in the biggest established rock market' (which is also a debatable point BTW), I said 'DP get to peoples consciousness just as much as LZ', which I still stand by. And I also said 'DP are in the same league', which I also stand by. And I can elaborate: 'DP and LZ are, in terms of worldwide cultural impact and influence, in the same league'. > And again, I'm not a Zep fan Neither am I, and I'm not a DP fan either, |
Sheer Brass Neck 17.01.2010 18:29 |
Thanks Seb, I always find your stuff very entertaining and knowledgeable, good to have people like you on this board keeping it going with intelligent, well thought out positions. Cheers. |
Sebastian 17.01.2010 18:38 |
I think we can go back to Brian's guitar work now ;) Qrock, when opening the thread, posted: 'Just make a list and rate his guitar work on each studio album.' Now, that would be very interesting, who wants to start? |
Sebastian 18.01.2010 02:30 |
My favourite piece of work played (not necessarily composed) by Brian on electric guitar, for each album, is: Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll: What a solo! White Queen: The electric choir after the long acoustic interlude. Brilliant. Lap of the Gods: Strong and astonishing choir during the intro. Short but defining. '39: I adore Good Company and is my second favourite Queen song, but '39 is the first so... great bell-effects. Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy: Gotta love those antihponies. All Dead: Better than loads of killer solos. Dreamer's Ball: Wonderful intro. My third favourite Queen song (used to be second). Save Me: The choir near the last cycle is just brilliant. Flash's Theme: There's a choir in 'with a mighty Flash' which always sends shivers down my spine. Dancer: Lovely harmonies, too simple but fitting for the track. I actually like that song a lot. It's a Hard Life: The antiphonies at the end of the solo. Gorgeous! Who Wants to Live Forever: One of his best solos ever. Was It All Worth It?: Another marvellous solo. Days of Our Lives: My favourite solo from him in Queen records. Made in Heaven: The wall of sound in the intro is just superb. |
mike hunt 18.01.2010 02:45 |
favorite guitar work on each album. Queen- liar Queen2- father to son/white Queen SHA- Flick of the wrist ANATO- Good company ADATR- tie your mother down/millionare waltz NOTW- It's late Jazz- Dreamers ball the game- Save me flash- wedding march hot space- Life is real the works- It's a hard life Magic- Princess of the universe the miracle- title track/was it all worth it Innuendo- don't try so hard/slightly mad MIH- A winters tale |
Matias Merçeauroix 18.01.2010 04:14 |
Favourite guitar work on each album Queen - My Fairy King and Keep Yourself Alive. Queen II - White Queen and Fairy Feller's Master Stroke. Sheer Heart Attack - Killer Queen (of course), and Lily of the Valley. A Night At The Opera - LOVE OF MY LIFE, Death on Two Legs and Good Company (even tho I'm not a great fan of that song). A Day At The Races - The Millionaire Waltz (which is, IMO, Brian's best guitar work EVER), Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy and Teo Torriatte. News of the World - Spread Your Wings and We Are The Champions. Jazz - ANYTHING but Fat Bottomed Girls, If You Can't Beat Them, Let Me Entertain You, Fun It and More of that Jazz. The Game - Play The Game, Save Me and Sail Away Sweet Sister. Hot Space - None, actually, but if I had to choose... maybe Back Chat, but the Milton Keynes version. Brian pulls a Jimmy Page on the album! The Works - It's A Hard Life and Keep Passing the Open Windows. A Kind of Magic - Friends Will Be Friends, A Kind of Magic and Princes of the Universe. The Miracle - The Miracle. Innuendo - I'm Going Slightly Mad and The Show Must Go On. Made in Heaven - EVERY DAMN NOTE HE PLAYS, except Mother Love. |
john bodega 18.01.2010 05:17 |
Mmm... White Queen, All Dead, Good Company, the solo for These Are The Days Of Our Lives, Bijou, most of his work on The Miracle album, Who Wants To Live Forever ... I have to add the solo from Put Out the Fire. He's drunk, and you can tell, but he still manages to get a great solo out. I think I remember him saying he wasn't happy with it but I don't give a fuck, it's a little left of field and I love it. |
thomasquinn 32989 18.01.2010 06:33 |
@Sebastian: Just as a point of interest: do you believe that in a group consisting of four musicians who also compose, like Queen, it is *practically* (not theoretically) possible for a song to be written without all four contributing? |
mike hunt 18.01.2010 07:47 |
I should mention the song made in heaven, love what brian did with that one. |
Sebastian 18.01.2010 21:34 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: @Sebastian: Just as a point of interest: do you believe that in a group consisting of four musicians who also compose, like Queen, it is *practically* (not theoretically) possible for a song to be written without all four contributing? Yes. |
Wiley 19.01.2010 17:31 |
Sebastian wrote: > John Paul Jones was IMO just about the greatest bass player of all time Not even sort of close. > while *Page was IMO a vastly superior guitarist to Blackmore Not even sort of close. He said that was his opinion (that's what IMO means) so how can he be "not even sort of close"? ... also... Sebastian wrote: Kings yes, gods no, and they're not the only ones in that 'podium'. So you say it's incorrect to call someone a Rock God because they're not supernatural omnipotent beings, but it's Ok to call them "kings"? Last time I checked, neither the Beatles, Queen or Led Zep were monarchs of any kingdom. Mr. Semantics is getting sloppy. ... or should I say "Seb-antics"? :) On the other hand, there is some good discussion going on in here. I like that! |
Sebastian 19.01.2010 20:26 |
> He said that was his opinion (that's what IMO means) so how can he be "not even sort of close"? Not being even sort of close. > So you say it's incorrect to call someone a Rock God because they're not supernatural omnipotent beings, but it's Ok to call them "kings"? I didn't say it's correct to call them kings. I said 'kings yes, gods no'. Not the same thing. > Last time I checked, neither the Beatles, Queen or Led Zep were monarchs of any kingdom. Which doesn't necessarily mean they aren't. > Mr. Semantics is getting sloppy. Maybe... I don't know who Mr Semantics is, but if I ever meet him, I'll try to see if he's getting sloppy or not and I'll tell you. > ... or should I say "Seb-antics"? :) You 'should' say whatever you want to. Your problem, not mine. > On the other hand, there is some good discussion going on in here. I like that! So please contribute to the good dicussion instead of bringing back old things. |
Wiley 19.01.2010 21:52 |
Ok, I'll get to the good discussion but only if you agree that my local pub band gets to people's consciousness just as much as Led Zeppelin. They get to their loyal fan base of 10 people equally as much as Led Zep gets to millions, hehe :). Too bad... I was halfway through my dedicated study to determine whether The Beatles or Led Zep were actually 'kings' somewhere in the world. Even then, that doesn't mean they COULDN'T be, right? You spend so much time saying what everybody else can't prove and nitpicking on everyone else's posts that sometimes your original point gets lost. At least we agree about "Dancer". Cool track. It's one of my personal favorites on Hot Space ... (In my very humble and subjective opinion and without trying to prove anything or outsmart anyone) |
Sebastian 19.01.2010 22:12 |
> Ok, I'll get to the good discussion but only if you agree that my local pub band gets to people's consciousness just as much as Led Zeppelin. I won't agree or disagree to that, as I don't know your local pub band or how much it gets to people's consciousness. > They get to their loyal fan base of 10 people equally as much as Led Zep gets to millions, hehe :). If they do, then good for them. > Too bad... I was halfway through my dedicated study to determine whether The Beatles or Led Zep were actually 'kings' somewhere in the world. As long as you're halfway, you could finish your study. > Even then, that doesn't mean they COULDN'T be, right? Indeed. > You spend so much time saying what everybody else can't prove and nitpicking on everyone else's posts that sometimes your original point gets lost. Actually, I don't: I've spent time 'saying what' about 10 or 15 people in QZ 'can't prove and nitpicking on' 10 or 15 people's 'posts'. 'Everybody else' accounts for about 6.7 billions, off which 10 or 15 are not even 0.00000025%. Which means that for over 99.99999975% of 'everybody else', I'm not saying what they can't prove or nitpicking their posts. > (In my very humble and subjective opinion and without trying to prove anything or outsmart anyone) Good for you. |
qrock 19.02.2010 11:25 |
WOW. This topic has gone through some real twists and turns. |
Wiley 19.02.2010 18:10 |
Yup, it did. I don't even remember if I gave my opinion as to Brian's best work. I've been listening to Hot Space in my car for the last couple of days and I have to say that I love the guitar in songs like Dancer and Put Out the Fire. Regarding solos, it's Put Out the Fire (again) and Back Chat (whose solo ALMOST saves the song) for me. Man, I really like that album! 10% more guitars, 20% less synths and a higher tempo in some songs would have made it a classic. By the way, does anybody know if Brian plays rythm guitar on Cool Cat? It sounds similar in style to AOBTD and that was John, so I guess it could be John playing there. |
mike hunt 19.02.2010 20:15 |
Wiley wrote: Yup, it did. I don't even remember if I gave my opinion as to Brian's best work. I've been listening to Hot Space in my car for the last couple of days and I have to say that I love the guitar in songs like Dancer and Put Out the Fire. Regarding solos, it's Put Out the Fire (again) and Back Chat (whose solo ALMOST saves the song) for me. Man, I really like that album! 10% more guitars, 20% less synths and a higher tempo in some songs would have made it a classic. By the way, does anybody know if Brian plays rythm guitar on Cool Cat? It sounds similar in style to AOBTD and that was John, so I guess it could be John playing there.I agree on hot space....Go through my Hot space moments....how good could that album have been with a few changes?...how did they screw that one up?...could have been a stone cold classic. |
qrock 21.02.2010 12:26 |
mike hunt wrote:
Wiley wrote:
By the way, does anybody know if Brian plays rythm guitar on Cool Cat? It sounds similar in style to AOBTD and that was John, so I guess it could be John playing there.
John played the rythm guitar on Cool Cat. Go to Queenpedia and you would find lots of interesting stuff. |
john bodega 21.02.2010 12:27 |
Mother Love. (cough) |
qrock 21.02.2010 12:34 |
Best Guitar Work? Well certainly his best work to begin with was from Queen I to A Day at the Races and the Miracle to Made in Heaven however Brian has always been a good and consistent guitar player. |
qrock 25.04.2010 16:09 |
My Favourite solos: Two from every album Queen I: Great King Rat and Maybe even Keep Yourself Alive Queen II: hmm, Father to Son and Someday One Day but Brian Was just absolutely outstanding throughout Queen II. Sheer Heart Attack: Brighton Rock (OBVIOUSLY), Killer Queen (Yet Again Brian rocks in this album) A Night at the Opera: Bohemian Rhapsody?? The Prophet's Song (Death..., Lazing, Sweet Lady are still amazing) and oh Good Company A Day at the Races: Tie YOUR MOTHER DOWN, Sombody to Love but I also have to give Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy a mention. News of the World: We Will ROCK You and It'sLate Jazz: Dead on Time and Don't Stop Me Now The Game: Save Me and Sail Away Sweet Sister though I love Play the Game, Need Your Loving Tonight and Crazy Little Thing Called Love Flash: Flash and The Hero Hot Space: Put Out the Fire and Back Chat....Back Chat...Chat-Chat The Works: It's a Hard Life and Hammer to Fall A Kind of Magic: One Vision and Gimme the Prize (Brian had some fantastic guitar work during the album) The Miracle: Breakthu and the Invisible Man Innuendo: Innuendo and the Show Must Go On (Bijou and Headlong and very high up there) Made in Heaven: Heaven for Everyone and A Winter's Tale (I was Born.. Too Much are great aswell) Best Riffs???>>>>> |
qrock 25.04.2010 16:15 |
Holly2003 wrote: Here's a list of countries that are also not the United States or Canada. 1 Afghanistan 2 Akrotiri 3 Albania 4 Algeria 5 American Samoa 6 Andorra 7 Angola 8 Anguilla 9 Antarctica 10 Antigua and Barbuda 11 Argentina 12 Armenia 13 Aruba 14 Ashmore and Cartier Islands 15 Australia 16 Austria 17 Azerbaijan 18 Bahamas, The 19 Bahrain 20 Bangladesh 21 Barbados 22 Bassas da India 23 Belarus 24 Belgium 25 Belize 26 Benin 27 Bermuda 28 Bhutan 29 Bolivia 30 Bosnia and Herzegovina 31 Botswana 32 Bouvet Island 33 Brazil 34 British Indian Ocean Territory 35 British Virgin Islands 36 Brunei 37 Bulgaria 38 Burkina Faso 39 Burma 40 Burundi 41 Cambodia 42 Cameroon 43 44 Cape Verde 45 Cayman Islands 46 Central African Republic 47 Chad 48 Chile 49 China 50 Christmas Island 51 Clipperton Island 52 Cocos (Keeling) Islands 53 Colombia 54 Comoros 55 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 56 Congo, Republic of the 57 Cook Islands 58 Coral Sea Islands 59 Costa Rica 60 Cote d'Ivoire 61 Croatia 62 Cuba 63 Cyprus 64 Czech Republic 65 Denmark 66 Dhekelia 67 Djibouti 68 Dominica 69 Dominican Republic 70 Ecuador 71 Egypt 72 El Salvador 73 Equatorial Guinea 74 Eritrea 75 Estonia 76 Ethiopia 77 Europa Island 78 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) 79 Faroe Islands 80 Fiji 81 Finland 82 France 83 French Guiana 84 French Polynesia 85 French Southern and Antarctic Lands 86 Gabon 87 Gambia, The 88 Gaza Strip 89 Georgia 90 Germany 91 Ghana 92 Gibraltar 93 Glorioso Islands 94 Greece 95 Greenland 96 Grenada 97 Guadeloupe 98 Guam 99 Guatemala 100 Guernsey 101 Guinea 102 Guinea-Bissau 103 Guyana 104 Haiti 105 Heard Island and McDonald Islands 106 Holy See (Vatican City) 107 Honduras 108 Hong Kong 109 Hungary 110 Iceland 111 India 112 Indonesia 113 Iran 114 Iraq 115 Ireland 116 Isle of Man 117 Israel 118 Italy 119 Jamaica 120 Jan Mayen 121 Japan 122 Jersey 123 Jordan 124 Juan de Nova Island 125 Kazakhstan 126 Kenya 127 Kiribati 128 Korea, North 129 Korea, South 130 Kuwait 131 Kyrgyzstan 132 Laos 133 Latvia 134 Lebanon 135 Lesotho 136 Liberia 137 Libya 138 Liechtenstein 139 Lithuania 140 Luxembourg 141 Macau 142 Macedonia 143 Madagascar 144 Malawi 145 Malaysia 146 Maldives 147 Mali 148 Malta 149 Marshall Islands 150 Martinique 151 Mauritania 152 Mauritius 153 Mayotte 154 Mexico 155 Micronesia, Federated States of 156 Moldova 157 Monaco 158 Mongolia 159 Montserrat 160 Morocco 161 Mozambique 162 Namibia 163 Nauru 164 Navassa Island 165 Nepal 166 Netherlands 167 Netherlands Antilles 168 New Caledonia 169 New Zealand 170 Nicaragua 171 Niger 172 Nigeria 173 Niue 174 Norfolk Island 175 Northern Mariana Islands 176 Norway 177 Oman 178 Pakistan 179 Palau 180 Panama 181 Papua New Guinea 182 Paracel Islands 183 Paraguay 184 Peru 185 Philippines 186 Pitcairn Islands 187 Poland 188 Portugal 189 Puerto Rico 190 Qatar 191 Reunion 192 Romania 193 Russia 194 Rwanda 195 Saint Helena 196 Saint Kitts and Nevis 197 Saint Lucia 198 Saint Pierre and Miquelon 199 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 200 Samoa 201 San Marino 202 Sao Tome and Principe 203 Saudi Arabia 204 Senegal 205 Serbia and Montenegro 206 Seychelles 207 Sierra Leone 208 Singapore 209 Slovakia 210 Slovenia 211 Solomon Islands 212 Somalia 213 South Africa 214 South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands 215 Spain 216 Spratly Islands 217 Sri Lanka 218 Sudan 219 Suriname 220 Svalbard 221 Swaziland 222 Sweden 223 Switzerland 224 Syria 225 Taiwan 226 Tajikistan 227 Tanzania 228 Thailand 229 Timor-Leste 230 Togo 231 Tokelau 232 Tonga 233 Trinidad and Tobago 234 Tromelin Island 235 Tunisia 236 Turkey 237 Turkmenistan 238 Turks and Caicos Islands 239 Tuvalu 240 Uganda 241 Ukraine 242 United Arab Emirates 243 United Kingdom 244 245 Uruguay 246 Uzbekistan 247 Vanuatu 248 Venezuela 249 Vietnam 250 Virgin Islands 251 Wake Island 252 Wallis and Futuna 253 West Bank 254 Western Sahara 255 Yemen 256 Zambia 257 Zimbabwe Great to see you know your Geography???? |
qrock 26.04.2010 06:02 |
People over here in the UK are dumb. Welcome to cracked up land. Discussions within Manchester, Newcastle and unfortuantly Glasgow about Freddie Mercury looking like David Cameron, Michael Jackson a better drummer than Neil Peart and Jimmy Page a better guitarist than Brian May. What on Earth???? Brits are always controversial. Ross County could apparently beat Manchester United any day (yeah right) and bands such as JOURNEY, A-HA and Guns and roses better than Queen etc. Michael Jackson (who is without a doubt is the greatest pop star ever) having the best album of all time. W\hat ever happened to Queen II, SHA, ADATR. And of course Bohemian Rhapsody, the greatest song of all time over here and Stairway to Heaven the Greatest song over there. Two legendary rock bands however their most famous songs voted the greatest are not the greatest. Why don't people stop being ignorant and forget about the rubbish music of today and go back to the legends of the past. Listen to Queen, Hits and beyond and see what real music, see what legenday music is. Shame we have'nt got a Queen today, they would outclass any modern act. Lady Ga Ga????? Or Queen - What's the point of the Question. Queen or The Beatles or Zep - That is what I call a debate. |
qrock 26.04.2010 08:53 |
Fav Riffs: Queen - Keep Yourself Alive and Liar Queen II: Father to Son and Ogre Battle Sheer Heart Attack: Now I'm Here and Stone Cold Crazy A Night at the Opera: Sweet Lady, Prophet's Song and Bohemian Rhapsody A Day at the Races: Tie Your Mother Down and White Man News of the World: It's Late and Sheer Heart Attack Jazz: Dead on Time and Let Me Entertain You The Game: Need Your Loving Tonight....... Flash: The Hero Hot Space: Put Out the Fire The Works: Hammer to Fall and Tear it Up A Kind of Magic: Princes of the Universe and One Vision The Miracle: I Want it All and Was it All Worth it Innuendo: Headlong and Innuendo Made in Heaven: Hmmm> Don't Know |
qrock 26.04.2010 08:55 |
qrock wrote: Holly2003 wrote: Here's a list of countries that are also not the United States or Canada. 1 Afghanistan 2 Akrotiri 3 Albania 4 Algeria 5 American Samoa 6 Andorra 7 Angola 8 Anguilla 9 Antarctica 10 Antigua and Barbuda 11 Argentina 12 Armenia 13 Aruba 14 Ashmore and Cartier Islands 15 Australia 16 Austria 17 Azerbaijan 18 Bahamas, The 19 Bahrain 20 Bangladesh 21 Barbados 22 Bassas da India 23 Belarus 24 Belgium 25 Belize 26 Benin 27 Bermuda 28 Bhutan 29 Bolivia 30 Bosnia and Herzegovina 31 Botswana 32 Bouvet Island 33 Brazil 34 British Indian Ocean Territory 35 British Virgin Islands 36 Brunei 37 Bulgaria 38 Burkina Faso 39 Burma 40 Burundi 41 Cambodia 42 Cameroon 43 44 Cape Verde 45 Cayman Islands 46 Central African Republic 47 Chad 48 Chile 49 China 50 Christmas Island 51 Clipperton Island 52 Cocos (Keeling) Islands 53 Colombia 54 Comoros 55 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 56 Congo, Republic of the 57 Cook Islands 58 Coral Sea Islands 59 Costa Rica 60 Cote d'Ivoire 61 Croatia 62 Cuba 63 Cyprus 64 Czech Republic 65 Denmark 66 Dhekelia 67 Djibouti 68 Dominica 69 Dominican Republic 70 Ecuador 71 Egypt 72 El Salvador 73 Equatorial Guinea 74 Eritrea 75 Estonia 76 Ethiopia 77 Europa Island 78 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) 79 Faroe Islands 80 Fiji 81 Finland 82 France 83 French Guiana 84 French Polynesia 85 French Southern and Antarctic Lands 86 Gabon 87 Gambia, The 88 Gaza Strip 89 Georgia 90 Germany 91 Ghana 92 Gibraltar 93 Glorioso Islands 94 Greece 95 Greenland 96 Grenada 97 Guadeloupe 98 Guam 99 Guatemala 100 Guernsey 101 Guinea 102 Guinea-Bissau 103 Guyana 104 Haiti 105 Heard Island and McDonald Islands 106 Holy See (Vatican City) 107 Honduras 108 Hong Kong 109 Hungary 110 Iceland 111 India 112 Indonesia 113 Iran 114 Iraq 115 Ireland 116 Isle of Man 117 Israel 118 Italy 119 Jamaica 120 Jan Mayen 121 Japan 122 Jersey 123 Jordan 124 Juan de Nova Island 125 Kazakhstan 126 Kenya 127 Kiribati 128 Korea, North 129 Korea, South 130 Kuwait 131 Kyrgyzstan 132 Laos 133 Latvia 134 Lebanon 135 Lesotho 136 Liberia 137 Libya 138 Liechtenstein 139 Lithuania 140 Luxembourg 141 Macau 142 Macedonia 143 Madagascar 144 Malawi 145 Malaysia 146 Maldives 147 Mali 148 Malta 149 Marshall Islands 150 Martinique 151 Mauritania 152 Mauritius 153 Mayotte 154 Mexico 155 Micronesia, Federated States of 156 Moldova 157 Monaco 158 Mongolia 159 Montserrat 160 Morocco 161 Mozambique 162 Namibia 163 Nauru 164 Navassa Island 165 Nepal 166 Netherlands 167 Netherlands Antilles 168 New Caledonia 169 New Zealand 170 Nicaragua 171 Niger 172 Nigeria 173 Niue 174 Norfolk Island 175 Northern Mariana Islands 176 Norway 177 Oman 178 Pakistan 179 Palau 180 Panama 181 Papua New Guinea 182 Paracel Islands 183 Paraguay 184 Peru 185 Philippines 186 Pitcairn Islands 187 Poland 188 Portugal 189 Puerto Rico 190 Qatar 191 Reunion 192 Romania 193 Russia 194 Rwanda 195 Saint Helena 196 Saint Kitts and Nevis 197 Saint Lucia 198 Saint Pierre and Miquelon 199 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 200 Samoa 201 San Marino 202 Sao Tome and Principe 203 Saudi Arabia 204 Senegal 205 Serbia and Montenegro 206 Seychelles 207 Sierra Leone 208 Singapore 209 Slovakia 210 Slovenia 211 Solomon Islands 212 Somalia 213 South Africa 214 South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands 215 Spain 216 Spratly Islands 217 Sri Lanka 218 Sudan 219 Suriname 220 Svalbard 221 Swaziland 222 Sweden 223 Switzerland 224 Syria 225 Taiwan 226 Tajikistan 227 Tanzania 228 Thailand 229 Timor-Leste 230 Togo 231 Tokelau 232 Tonga 233 Trinidad and Tobago 234 Tromelin Island 235 Tunisia 236 Turkey 237 Turkmenistan 238 Turks and Caicos Islands 239 Tuvalu 240 Uganda 241 Ukraine 242 United Arab Emirates 243 United Kingdom 244 245 Uruguay 246 Uzbekistan 247 Vanuatu 248 Venezuela 249 Vietnam 250 Virgin Islands 251 Wake Island 252 Wallis and Futuna 253 West Bank 254 Western Sahara 255 Yemen 256 Zambia 257 Zimbabwe Great to see you know your Geography???? By the Way, you missed the Vatican City out |
qrock 26.04.2010 09:20 |
A Queen fan has made a section on his page about this Topic. I found it when browsing. link |
qrock 26.04.2010 14:13 |
Hey Jenny |
qrock 26.04.2010 14:21 |
qrock wrote: Hey Jenny The Tour helper With the Queen A Kind of Magic 1986. |
Sebastian 26.04.2010 14:28 |
It's Deaks there. |
qrock 27.04.2010 08:53 |
Brian May is currently standing at 17th on the Greatest Guitarists Ever. Jimmy Page is third and Prince is 10th. link |
The Real Wizard 27.04.2010 10:06 |
That's just a bunch of kids talking about who they like. Check out this website for a much more informed critique of various rock guitarists: link - in the "alchemy" section. |
qrock 27.04.2010 12:01 |
I think nowadays people recognise and rate a guitarist by looks, (icon in the band like lead singer) and how "cool" he seems. Nowadays talent and music of the past (e.g "old" music) does not matter. |
qrock 15.05.2010 07:39 |
It's interesting to see that Brian is not on the BBC Series of I'm in A Rock Band. I belive that he is a very underrated guitarist and musician. I think people just judge his guitar work on Queen Singles, not albums. Anyway, the "?legendary?" (BBC Quote) guitarist Jimmy Page is there on that Show. And I bet that he will get the title Best Guitarist of All Time. |
qrock 15.05.2010 07:49 |
Here are the Guitarists on that TV Show? Jeff Beck Matt Bellamy (Matt Who?) Eric Clapton Graham Coxon (Graham Who?) Jimi Hendrix Johnny Marr (Johnny Who) Jimmy Page (Ah Yes Jimmy) Slash (Slash that Brian is better) Pete Townsend Jack White Whilst reading the basic info about those guitarists, Graham Coxon was rated really highly. I don't know wether this is a popularity contest or a shortlist of talent. There are hard working and super talented guitarist like Brian May, Mark Knopfler and Alex Lifeson who deserve to be in that list. |
qrock 15.05.2010 07:55 |
OH NO! OH NO! Here is another rubbish shortlist from the BBC for your favourite drummer. Ginger Baker John Bonham Phil Collins (Oh No, NOT Him) Stewart Copeland (The Police drummer) Dave Ghrol Mitch Mitchell Keith Moon Ringo Starr (RINGO STARR, WHO IS HE ONE OF THE BEST DRUMMERS EVER) Lars Ulrich (WHO?) Charlie Watts (OH NO? Not that overrated drummer) A Disgrace. Roger is better than more than a third of those drummers at least. |
qrock 15.05.2010 07:56 |
And What ever you do, don't even bother looking at best bassist. John would never be in that list. In the meantime, vote like mad for Freddie and Queen. Let's show the BBC who is the Boss. |
qrock 15.05.2010 08:00 |
I think that does conclude, that Jimmy Page will always be considered the best guitarist ever or AND a better guitartist than Brian. Though I find it amazing that real music is from Queen, RUSH.... is just overshaddowed by rubbish rock bands with no talent or no where nere the talent of Queen. Even Pink Floyd and Deep Purple and Black Sabbath were not mentioned in there, which is very surprising as those bands are usually involved with those type of shows. |
Sebastian 15.05.2010 15:17 |
Regarding Ringo: he's very underrated. |
The Real Wizard 15.05.2010 20:33 |
qrock wrote: "Phil Collins (Oh No, NOT Him)" What do you have against Phil Collins as a drummer? Ever heard the early Genesis stuff, or his side project Brand X? He is an incredible drummer. He's done prog, pop, rock, Disney and how he's doing a record of Motown covers. He's all over the map. How many people besides The Beatles and Michael Jackson have reached such a widespread audience? |
andreas_mercury 16.05.2010 06:51 |
Sebastian wrote: Regarding Ringo: he's very underrated. 150% agreed if ringo is so basic and shitty, then how come drummers decades since then (and definitely will happen into the future) have copied his fills and approach, without ever getting it even right? i cant say i'm an excellent drummer but i sure to listen to many, many albums with the drums in mind and Ringo's influence is in turning up the strangest places even now. |
qrock 16.05.2010 06:54 |
I have nothing really against him or his music. I Like Genesis, I like his solo work during the 80s and I really liked his soundtrack for the disney movie Brother Bear. However, I'm not quite shure to just why he is a head of drummers like Neil Peart and even Roger. He is a good drummer with a unique style and has reached many different audiences but I'm not sure why he is considered better than Neil Peart. Phil might win it if this programme is a popularity contest. However there are even worse candidates in this programme than Phil. The drummer of the Police is good as he is a versitile drummer with some good technical ability. However he is not better than Roger and Neil. The Drummer of the Rolling Stones? Why is he there? Yes he is a GOOD Drummer but not a Brilliant drummer. He's pretty basic, does not have any great width in his playing and he is certainly not up there with the best drummers ever. Cozy Powell, Neil Peart, Roger Taylor............and so on........ are better drummers than him. |
qrock 16.05.2010 07:00 |
Agreed that Ringo has had an influence on the way he did fills, the off beats ect, etc. And in that case if he has had an influence on drummers on a large scale, yes he probably does deserve to be in that show. HOWEVER: For me, I just find him a little bit over-rated. You should understand that Neil Peart and maybe just Roger are better drummers than Ringo. Yes Ringo probably may have the highest influnce of drummers though Roger is'nt far behind him. |
The Real Wizard 16.05.2010 09:33 |
Stewart Copeland and Phil Collins are top notch drummers who have worked with the best. Neil Peart is flashier and has a 100-piece kit, but he is no better than the aforementioned two. Ringo is not over-rated. If anything, he is under-rated. He wrote the book on rock drumming and it evolved from there. Before Ringo, nobody was doing the things we take for granted today. |
qrock 16.05.2010 15:02 |
Oh Come on! Neal Peart has got to be a better drummer than Phil Collins and Stewart Copeland. What's Next? Oh Ringo Starr is arguably about the same as John Bonham or Michael Jackson was a unique Drunmer! You just have to accept it that Neil Peart is a better Percussionist than most. |
qrock 16.05.2010 15:06 |
Sir GH wrote: qrock wrote: "Phil Collins (Oh No, NOT Him)" What do you have against Phil Collins as a drummer? Ever heard the early Genesis stuff, or his side project Brand X? He is an incredible drummer. He's done prog, pop, rock, Disney and how he's doing a record of Motown covers. He's all over the map. How many people besides The Beatles and Michael Jackson have reached such a widespread audience? Yes I know that Phil is a good drummer and does deserve to be in the show however I'm just dissapointed with the overrated drummers in that programme who leave out talented and also very influential drummers. |
qrock 16.05.2010 15:17 |
Oh I'd just like mention how funny it was to to find a commotion on this discussion whilst a commotion was going on here in Scotland with the crazy winter, (one of the coldest ones since records began). Best Guitar Work by Brian May vs The Big Feeze. |
Sebastian 16.05.2010 15:53 |
> if ringo is so basic and shitty, then how come drummers decades since then (and definitely will happen into the future) have copied his fills and approach, without ever getting it even right? Same for George: great guitarist, without getting too complicated. > However, I'm not quite shure to just why he is a head of drummers like Neil Peart and even Roger. While he's not as good as Neil Peart, he's definitely better than Roger IMO. > He is a good drummer with a unique style and has reached many different audiences but I'm not sure why he is considered better than Neil Peart. Those polls and rankings are usually made by and for ignorants anyway. > The Drummer of the Rolling Stones? Why is he there? Yes he is a GOOD Drummer but not a Brilliant drummer. Those polls and rankings are usually made by and for ignorants anyway. > You should understand that Neil Peart and maybe just Roger are better drummers than Ringo. Of course, but that doesn't mean he's bad. If a man's 7' 5" tall, he's not a dwarf just because he's shorter than Yao Ming. Same: there are good drummers who are still good even if they're not as good as others. > Yes Ringo probably may have the highest influnce of drummers And that's in big part because of The Beatles. > Neil Peart is flashier and has a 100-piece kit, but he is no better than the aforementioned two. Actually (IMO of course) he is. Not as influential, not as famous, probably not as original, but indeed better. > He wrote the book on rock drumming and it evolved from there. Before Ringo, nobody was doing the things we take for granted today. That's quite overrating him: before him, there were proto-ideas. And he didn't write the book on rock drumming, he was a (very important of course) link in its evolution, but he's not the 'creator'. Same for Hendrix, Entwhistle, etc. > I'm just dissapointed with the overrated drummers in that programme who leave out talented and also very influential drummers. Those programmes are usually made chiefly by and for ignorants anyway, |
qrock 25.05.2010 11:14 |
I still would not agree about Ringo being a better drummer than Roger. Ringo was good, influential and popular. Those factors probably put him into that Show. |
Sebastian 26.05.2010 07:06 |
If you say so because I wrote 'While he's not as good as Neil Peart, he's definitely better than Roger IMO.', I meant Phil Collins, not Ringo. IMO Ringo, while very good and underrated, can't hold a candle to Roger (who BTW is also very underrated as a drummer). |
andreas_mercury 26.05.2010 09:08 |
brian is insane good on his last solo album to make me wonder where the hell it all went .... not that i hate the songs of Cosmos Rocks there are good ideas there but its like brian didn't even show up sometimes... i still wish one day for him to make one last set of great guitar tracls |
Amazon 28.05.2010 11:22 |
I love George Harrison. He was truly among the very greatest guitarists of all time, was a wonderful songwriter, and was criminally underrated. He's also my favourite Beatle. :D With all the focus on John (whom IMO has become one of the most overrated of all pop/rock musicians) and Paul (whom, bizarre as this might seem, is IMO a little underappreciated), the brilliance of George is sometimes forgotten. It shouldn't be; he was absolutely extraordinary. |
qrock 01.07.2010 14:37 |
I really like George Harrision's music and is underated. I really like his solo song Set on You. A Great Songwriter. |
qrock 24.10.2010 17:04 |
Another Underrated Guitarist is Alex Lifeson of Rush. I've been listening to their music for a while now. He probably is up their in the top ten (albeit I rate Brian higher). But I think that Neil Peart the drummer was the most inportant member of the group as his ability allowed the rest of the guys to create that kind of music. High Tenicity. I think Rush should be up their with the greatest artists there has ever been. I find them more interesting than Led Zeppelin. Early Queen is also like Rush in a way. Songs like Father to Son, Ogre Battle and even Liar/Jesus carry the sound that appeared on Rush album in the 1970s. Though Brian's guitar work on songs like Father to Son and Ogre Batlle is I MEAN Very simular to some of Alex's work. Queenzoners have replied in this thread and criticised Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin. No matter how much you hate Led Zeppelin or Michael Jackson or The Beatles, you still have to respect that they are up their with the greatest of all time. Their all unique and significant in their own way. However I think Queen incomparated all aspect and elements of Rock Music which in my opinion emphasises that style. There are no boundaries in Rock Music and there were no boundaries in Queen. In my opinion I see them as the Ultimate Example of a Legendary Rock Band. But respect the other bands who play their role in the ever growing influence of rock music, I never be blind or ignorant with the matter. |
Bigfish 25.10.2010 04:38 |
Jimmy Page was, by Brians own admission, a big influence on him. Queen as a whole respected and admired Zep tremendously and saw them as the bench mark; artistically, creatively,peformance wise, success wise etc. etc. Who was better ? who was best ? No me importa una mierda. In a very old fashioned way I just feel kind of proud that they were both english... As for Brians best work - generally I would put his seventies work way above his eighties work and beyond but as far as individual songs are concerned; Killer Queen Rhapsody Millionaire Waltz All dead, all dead Dead on time Spread you wings Crazy little thing called love Mustapha You don't fool me Death on two legs We will rock you |
Holly2003 25.10.2010 05:47 |
Elements of Brian's playing on ANATO and ADATR are masterclasses of style, taste and technique. ADATR is, imo, a very underrated album -- some think it's just a poor imitation of ANATO -- but Brian's playing there is consistantly brilliant. |
qrock 26.10.2010 13:09 |
I'd would be interested to see a video where all of Brian's Solos or (solo like touches) on youtube. Like a compilation. |
Amazon 26.10.2010 16:26 |
qrock wrote: "I'd would be interested to see a video where all of Brian's Solos or (solo like touches) on youtube. Like a compilation." If you go onto youtube, and type in rogertaylorfan2k8, you will see links to videos containing Brian's solos on each of the albums (for example Brian May solos - A day at the races & Brian May solos - Hot space). rogertaylorfan2k8 has videos containing Brian's solos for each of the 14 studio albums. |
PrimeJiveUSA 26.10.2010 17:15 |
Two songs spring to mind...sorry listing an ALBUM is too frustrating for me (lol). Brighton Rock from SHA....and Rain Must Fall from The Miracle. |
qrock 05.12.2010 07:03 |
Anyway, how good a guitarist do you think Brian is/was |
Holly2003 15.01.2020 20:23 |
qrock wrote: Anyway, how good a guitarist do you think Brian is/wasHe's okay. |