QueenZone discussion #1190038

mike hunt wrote: It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.

if he didn't molest those kids

Sir GH wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mike hunt wrote:                                                                                                                               It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.                                                                                                                              

You're right, it is a bit overblown.  But Michael Jackson, like him or not, is one of the most famous people ever to have lived, and with good reason: - he was this and last generation's Elvis - he broke colour barriers on MTV and elsewhere - after disco estranged people from record shops, Thriller brought them back - Thriller was the beginning of wide interest in the compact disc - the money he gave to charity was approximately his debt when he died - he inspired people to simply love "There's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one." -- Michael Jackson But unfortunately... most of those things don't make headlines in 2009.  It's the average person's own fault that they don't bother to take a moment to have some empathy for what the guy had been through - child star at age 5, father's beatings, and female hormones until age 16, for starters.

if he didn't molest those kids

We need to leave that alone too.  The mere mention of that just contributes to the problem that we listen to what tabloid culture feeds us, all in the interest of money at someone's expense.  So the question is, will we as a society learn from this, or will the next big star continue to get attacked by the tabloids and the average person, restarting the cycle of societal abuse yet again?

female hormones until age 16

Sir GH wrote:

mike hunt wrote: It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.

You're right, it is a bit overblown.  But Michael Jackson, like him or not, is one of the most famous people ever to have lived, and with good reason: - he was this and last generation's Elvis - he broke colour barriers on MTV and elsewhere - after disco estranged people from record shops, Thriller brought them back - Thriller was the beginning of wide interest in the compact disc - the money he gave to charity was approximately his debt when he died - he inspired people to simply love "There's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one." -- Michael Jackson But unfortunately... most of those things don't make headlines in 2009.  It's the average person's own fault that they don't bother to take a moment to have some empathy for what the guy had been through - child star at age 5, father's beatings, and female hormones until age 16, for starters.

if he didn't molest those kids

We need to leave that alone too.  The mere mention of that just contributes to the problem that we listen to what tabloid culture feeds us, all in the interest of money at someone's expense.  So the question is, will we as a society learn from this, or will the next big star continue to get attacked by the tabloids and the average person, restarting the cycle of societal abuse yet again?

ParisNair wrote:

female hormones until age 16

Why would he do that to himself?

ThomasQuinn wrote: You're giving him waaaay too much credit. He wasn't Bad (pun intended), but he certainly wasn't the messianic figure you're currently portraying him to be. Just look at it like this: in five years, will you still stand by what you wrote now? As an historian, I doubt it. It's still very close to the time of his death now, and so the appropriate distance to cast any useful judgement on his life and career is lacking. Emotions are still overtaking reason.

ThomasQuinn wrote:

  Sir GH wrote:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mike hunt wrote:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

You're right, it is a bit overblown.  But Michael Jackson, like him or not, is one of the most famous people ever to have lived, and with good reason: - he was this and last generation's Elvis - he broke colour barriers on MTV and elsewhere - after disco estranged people from record shops, Thriller brought them back - Thriller was the beginning of wide interest in the compact disc - the money he gave to charity was approximately his debt when he died - he inspired people to simply love "There's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one." -- Michael Jackson But unfortunately... most of those things don't make headlines in 2009.  It's the average person's own fault that they don't bother to take a moment to have some empathy for what the guy had been through - child star at age 5, father's beatings, and female hormones until age 16, for starters.

if he didn't molest those kids

We need to leave that alone too.  The mere mention of that just contributes to the problem that we listen to what tabloid culture feeds us, all in the interest of money at someone's expense.  So the question is, will we as a society learn from this, or will the next big star continue to get attacked by the tabloids and the average person, restarting the cycle of societal abuse yet again?

You're giving him waaaay too much credit. He wasn't Bad (pun intended), but he certainly wasn't the messianic figure you're currently portraying him to be. Just look at it like this: in five years, will you still stand by what you wrote now? As an historian, I doubt it. It's still very close to the time of his death now, and so the appropriate distance to cast any useful judgement on his life and career is lacking. Emotions are still overtaking reason.

Sir GH wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mike hunt wrote:                                                                                                                               It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.                                                                                                                              

You're right, it is a bit overblown.  But Michael Jackson, like him or not, is one of the most famous people ever to have lived, and with good reason: - he was this and last generation's Elvis - he broke colour barriers on MTV and elsewhere - after disco estranged people from record shops, Thriller brought them back - Thriller was the beginning of wide interest in the compact disc - the money he gave to charity was approximately his debt when he died - he inspired people to simply love "There's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one." -- Michael Jackson But unfortunately... most of those things don't make headlines in 2009.  It's the average person's own fault that they don't bother to take a moment to have some empathy for what the guy had been through - child star at age 5, father's beatings, and female hormones until age 16, for starters.

if he didn't molest those kids

We need to leave that alone too.  The mere mention of that just contributes to the problem that we listen to what tabloid culture feeds us, all in the interest of money at someone's expense.  So the question is, will we as a society learn from this, or will the next big star continue to get attacked by the tabloids and the average person, restarting the cycle of societal abuse yet again?

mike hunt wrote: yea, but now they all love him.  That's another thing that makes me mad.  The media killed this guy,  They called him every name in the book.  Pervert,  freak, wacko, but now he's the most loved figure since elvis.  Phonies I tell you.  This threat is more about the media than michael.

Sir GH wrote:

ParisNair wrote:

female hormones until age 16

Why would he do that to himself?

He was still a kid then... it was his father who took care of that, to keep MJ's voice up high for as long as possible.

ThomasQuinn wrote: You're giving him waaaay too much credit. He wasn't Bad (pun intended), but he certainly wasn't the messianic figure you're currently portraying him to be. Just look at it like this: in five years, will you still stand by what you wrote now? As an historian, I doubt it. It's still very close to the time of his death now, and so the appropriate distance to cast any useful judgement on his life and career is lacking. Emotions are still overtaking reason.

Fair enough.  Time will tell.  But I don't see anything I wrote as being emotionally triggered.  Everything I said was a fact (and not a Treasure Moment "FACT"). Ask the average middle-aged person from any territory that was dominated by disco how many records they bought between 1978 and 1981.  Then ask them if they bought Thriller.  Then ask them what song made them at least curious to hear what CD audio sounded like.  You'd be surprised how many people will say "that intro of Billie Jean". As for his personal life... popular culture hasn't come out to destroy someone in such a grand style since Marilyn Monroe.  But there was no excuse this time, as we had decades to learn from that, and we didn't.

Sir GH wrote: Let's not forget that, unlike most pop stars, MJ wrote most of his songs.

Sir GH wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mike hunt wrote:                                                                                                                               It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.                                                                                                                              

You're right, it is a bit overblown.  But Michael Jackson, like him or not, is one of the most famous people ever to have lived, and with good reason: - he was this and last generation's Elvis - he broke colour barriers on MTV and elsewhere - after disco estranged people from record shops, Thriller brought them back - Thriller was the beginning of wide interest in the compact disc - the money he gave to charity was approximately his debt when he died - he inspired people to simply love "There's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one." -- Michael Jackson But unfortunately... most of those things don't make headlines in 2009.  It's the average person's own fault that they don't bother to take a moment to have some empathy for what the guy had been through - child star at age 5, father's beatings, and female hormones until age 16, for starters.

if he didn't molest those kids

We need to leave that alone too.  The mere mention of that just contributes to the problem that we listen to what tabloid culture feeds us, all in the interest of money at someone's expense.  So the question is, will we as a society learn from this, or will the next big star continue to get attacked by the tabloids and the average person, restarting the cycle of societal abuse yet again?

SaskQueenFan wrote:

  Sir GH wrote:  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              mike hunt wrote:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               It makes me sad to see how society gets sucked into this crap.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

You're right, it is a bit overblown.  But Michael Jackson, like him or not, is one of the most famous people ever to have lived, and with good reason: - he was this and last generation's Elvis - he broke colour barriers on MTV and elsewhere - after disco estranged people from record shops, Thriller brought them back - Thriller was the beginning of wide interest in the compact disc - the money he gave to charity was approximately his debt when he died - he inspired people to simply love "There's nothing that can't be done if we raise our voice as one." -- Michael Jackson But unfortunately... most of those things don't make headlines in 2009.  It's the average person's own fault that they don't bother to take a moment to have some empathy for what the guy had been through - child star at age 5, father's beatings, and female hormones until age 16, for starters.

if he didn't molest those kids

We need to leave that alone too.  The mere mention of that just contributes to the problem that we listen to what tabloid culture feeds us, all in the interest of money at someone's expense.  So the question is, will we as a society learn from this, or will the next big star continue to get attacked by the tabloids and the average person, restarting the cycle of societal abuse yet again?

 The thing is though, Sir GH, is that the $10 million settlement in the first molestation case makes MJ look very guilty. If he was innocent, why settle the case out of court? You do have to admit, sleeping with kids in the same bed is a very poor choice by Jackson. It may have been innocent, like a slumber party, but for a grown adult to sleep with kids that are not his own looks very suspicious, and many, rightfully so, looked at him in a very different light. In many ways he was childlike, but he made many business decisions, like buying the Beatles catalogue-- selling the songs to companies for  use in advertising was very lucrative. I don't buy the innocent routine, not when he was making those kind of shrewd decisions.   

Sebastian wrote: About that, Michael did comment on 'Moonwalk' that he felt sad about people overlooking, ignoring or simply not believing that side of him. He would work his arse off to write a great melody, a great percussion part of a great choir arrangement only for people to ask him 'who really wrote that?'. It's a bit similar to what happens to Freddie - many people think of him as a showman, frontman and entertainer who sang really well but that was it, and don't picture him sitting at the piano composing wonderful material -, but even more extreme. The thing is: when a doctor dies, for instance, his/her patients, friends, family and co-workers mourn him/her for a while, and focus on his/her life, etc. If I died today, I bet my daughter, my brother, my close friends and perhaps even a couple of people on this forum would be talking about me or what I did (both right and wrong) for a couple of weeks. Michael's case is the same, only that his (symbolic) relatives are scores of millions and the amount of people he's touched tops what most of those doctors and firefighters have. Fair? Perhaps not. But that's the way it is: from street kids trying to moonwalk (been there, done that) to people re-arranging their timetable to attend the O2 gigs or at least (if they weren't in London) watch them via YT as soon as they were uploaded (again, BTDT). With Michael, everything was a surprise: his collaboration with Slash, his ridiculous bizarre dangerous 'kid off the window' moment, his announcements, his trial (well, sort of...), and of course, his death, totally unexpected. I admit I'm having a very hard time with it, I even forced myself to avoid any contact with news for the last couple of days and in his funeral I filled myself with work. That night loads of friends and relatives were phoning me to ask about my opinion on Shaheen's performance (they do know I'm a big fan since BGT), but I kept myself from watching that because it'd be too hard for me. And why? I've always admired MJ, but I was never a person who had all his records or watched all his concerts... and I admired Dan Fogelberg, Michael Kamen, George Harrison and Luciano Pavarotti a hell of a lot more, but none of their deaths got to me that way. Perhaps it's the surprise factor: with all of them I'd seen it coming for a while; with Michael, I was literally talking about him (and the fact I'd loaned 'Moonwalk' to a friend and she hadn't returned it) and ten minutes later TMZ'd broken the news. Still can't get over it... and that's me, imagine how a fan would be feeling... Now, about the press - that's a different story. Of course, many of them are vultures. They won't have another story like this one at least until Paul McCartney kicks it... again (is that what Not a Second Time was really about?). And even then there's still a difference, as my brother said: Paul McCartney is 'Paul McCartney from The Beatles'. Michael Jackson was not 'Michael Jackson from the Jacksons', he was 'Michael Jackson', full stop. And of course, it's the first time Michael dies...

Sebastian wrote: David Gilmour played all the bass lines in Pink Floyd records,

ThomasQuinn wrote:

Sebastian wrote: David Gilmour played all the bass lines in Pink Floyd records,

Pardon? Dave played the occasional bass-line, but you're taking things just a little too far here.

Sebastian wrote: It's so sad that my message needs explanation... do I have to clear up that I don't think Paul died in 1966?

Sir GH wrote:

ThomasQuinn wrote:

Sebastian wrote: David Gilmour played all the bass lines in Pink Floyd records,

Pardon? Dave played the occasional bass-line, but you're taking things just a little too far here.

It's part of a larger sentence, preceded by "Those are the same people who think," rather than being his opinion.

Sir GH wrote:

                                                              ParisNair wrote:                                                              

female hormones until age 16

Why would he do that to himself?

He was still a kid then... it was his father who took care of that, to keep MJ's voice up high for as long as possible.