| August R. 23.05.2009 04:59 |
Just realised it's been 20 years since The Miracle album was released. This also marks my 20years of being a Queen fan. I Want It All was the first Queen song I fell in love with all those years ago and The Miracle was my soundtrack album of the summer '89. Good memories!!! This album will always have a special place in my heart. Anyway, what are yor thoughts on The Miracle? Has it aged well? You still listen to it? Is it rubbish? Or a gem? What are your favourite songs from the album? I still like this album a lot, and I think it's got some great songs on it. My favourites being The Miracle, I Want It All, Breakthru, Scandal and Was It All Worth It. Of course there are some weak moments as well (like Party and Rain Must Fall) but all in all, I think it's one their better albums from the 80's. The decision to credit everything for Queen obviously paid off. But I just can't help thinking that the album could have been even better if they had chosen different songs on it. B-sides like Hang On In There and Hijack My Heart would have made the album more interesting, plus it would have been great to hear Roger singing lead on a Queen album once again. Also, they should have released TMLWKY on the album 'cos the one thing this album lacks is a haunting piano ballad. Your comments, please... |
| Vali 23.05.2009 05:37 |
I'll always love The Miracle because it was the very first Queen album I was really expecting and waiting to be released. I mean, I was 13 years old and at last quite "adult" to know what was going on around. I remember the release of The Works and AKOM, those albums made me a Queen fan as a kid, but The MIracle was the first I was dying to see released as a proper Queen fan. I still believe this is the album I've listened the most in my life. Really ! When it was released I bought the cassette tape and I was everywhere playing it with my walkman, at any time! Yes, now I know it has received many criticism and it's been said to be a weak album ... but, anyway, I still love it ! Many great songs in there: IWIA, The MIracle, The Invisible Man, Breakthru, Scandal and the superb Was It All Worth It ...then we have the fillers I really enjoy (Party and Khashoggi's Ship) and the ones I don't that much (Rain Must Fall and My Baby Does Me). And what about the B-sides ? Hang On In There is always a favourite of mine, Stealin is pure fun, Hijack My Heart - as anything sung by Roger - is a well loved one, and My Life Has Been Side ... this is a curious case, as I still don't know wether I prefer the orginal version or the MIH reworked one (more simple, but cleaner). Another good aspect of this album is found in the production and how brilliant it sounds. Innuendo, artistically, is a thousand times better than The Miracle, but many times I wished the former had the production and fantastic sound we have on the later. With the passing of time and as I grew, I learnt to love much better Queen albums, but The Miracle will always stay in a special place in my heart. *edit / ps: I was writing above about my memories on this album, when I was 13 (!) years old, and suddenly I've realised the thread title: 20 YEARS NOW ..... oh, my .... oh, my ... |
| onevsion 23.05.2009 06:50 |
Nice post Vali. I had the same feeling a bit later with a different album (when Made in Heaven was released) 12 y/o at that time, and the first queen release I was waiting for in the shops. Great feeling :-) |
| Makka 23.05.2009 09:19 |
All of a sudden I feel very very old!! :( |
| Jazz 78 23.05.2009 09:39 |
Being an older Queen fan myself (a fan for 32 years) I lost a little interest in the band after Hot Space and then they didn't do anything in 83 so the interest was kind of not there The Works and AKOM were starting to get me back on track but when I heard I Want It All I got my interest back. Like the posters above I had that feeling of anticipation again waiting for that album like I did in the late 70's waiting for those albums to be released. It was a good collection of songs but they topped themselves with Innuendo with all the trademark Queen ideas. |
| lalaalalaa 23.05.2009 12:05 |
The Miracle is definately my favorite Queen album from the 80's. I absolutely love it. |
| dbruce 23.05.2009 15:05 |
The Miracle is a funny one with me. Spawning 5 great singles that covered a range of styles was no mean feat. Add in WIAWI and already you've got a pretty solid foundation for an album. Just a shame that the filler - My Baby and Rain Must Fall - are some of the worst filler on any Queen album. Just playing about and came up with this version: - I Want It All (single version) - The Miracle (replace keyboard part with a proper piano part, and remove the fast guitar solo) - The Invisible Man - Hang On In There - My Life Has Been Saved - Party - Khashoggi's Ship - Breakthru - Stealin - Scandal (extended version) - Was It All Worth It Might change the running order slightly - sometimes works best when you hear it. Although Party/KS works as an opener, I would probably prefer the IWIA chorus as an opener. Good thread though. |
| Amazon 23.05.2009 15:07 |
I consider The Miracle to be Queen's weakest classical era studio album (excluding Flash.) For many years I rarely listened to this album, apart from 'I Want It All,' however I recently listened to in full for the first time in years, and I realised that I liked it. I Want It All, The Miracle, Breakthru, Scandal and Was It All Worth It are my favourites while The Invisible Man is also pretty cool, once one gets past the similarities to Ghostbusters. I don't think that Queen has ever released a bad album, as The Miracle proves, but is still IMO the group's weakest album, Flash and The Cosmos Rocks aside. |
| thomasquinn 32989 23.05.2009 16:00 |
Amazon wrote: I consider The Miracle to be Queen's weakest classical era studio album (excluding Flash.) Flash Gordon isn't technically a "studio album", it's an O.S.T. |
| Amazon 23.05.2009 16:07 |
ThomasQuinn wrote:Amazon wrote: I consider The Miracle to be Queen's weakest classical era studio album (excluding Flash.)Flash Gordon isn't technically a "studio album", it's an O.S.T. Exactly, which is why I specifically excluded it. Funny thing is that although it is a soundtrack, numerous sources such as Queenpedia list it as a studio album. But, yeh, I certainly do agree that it's not a studio album. |
| queenside 23.05.2009 16:18 |
i love the album! i think that album has 5 great singles, very different from each other but every one of them so much "queen". the miracle is great ballad, with sort of naive and utopian lyrics i find it like cousin to lennon's imagine. breakthru is just great uptempo feel good song, it has that sort of "don't stop me now" let's have fun sort of vibe. i want it all is great queen rocker with all the trademarks-big pounding rhythm, killer riff and epic chours with great vocals and outstanding guitar solo by dr. brian may. they don't make songs like that anymore. and invisible man is great, catchy single, kind of unusual style for queen but they were always diffrent and trying something else. all 5 singles from the miracle are very diffrent but when you hear them you always know it's queen. 5th single is scandal, love that track. plus some great songs on that album like was it all worth it and party (which some people find to be a filler). actually i love all songs from the miracle,my baby does me, KS, hang on in there... love them all! the miracle will always have a special place in my heart cos it's the first Q album i bought on cd back in '99 and i remember listening to it constantly. i was listening it today. |
| Russian Headlong 23.05.2009 17:37 |
Jeez, where did those 20 years go? I remember hearing and loving I Want it All and all the hype that it was a return to their Hard Rockin roots, and then listening to the album and thinking there is still too much synthesised pop pap, on here, where the metal edge I want it all promised? I liked Party, Khashoggis Ship, IWIA, Scandal and WIAWI, but hated the Invisible Man 12 ", Rain Must Fall and My Baby Does Me. The biggest dsiappointment was no tour,I remeber reading Kerrang that Queen would headline a gig at Alton Towers, the Silver Clef Ivan Norvello Concert at Knebworth and it came clear didnt want to tour, what a shame, because had he come out ealier about his disease maybe, just maybe he could have had a magic johnson type revival? |
| lalaalalaa 23.05.2009 20:33 |
I seem to be one of a few that actually enjoys Rain Must Fall. |
| The Real Wizard 24.05.2009 00:45 |
lalaalalaa wrote: I seem to be one of a few that actually enjoys Rain Must Fall. Me too. I think it's a great, under-rated song. The keyboards date it, but the songwriting itself is great. To me, The Miracle is the band's strongest album from the 80s. But it's not nearly as strong as Innuendo, which was the closest the band ever came to recapturing the spirit of A Night At The Opera. I really don't get why Party and Khashoggi's Ship get flack from so many fans. They are brilliant compositions, filled with Queen trademarks, one of which is treading down territory that they'd touch once and never again. From the first notes of Party to the epic nature of Was It All Worth It, The Miracle is a very solid rock album. |
| mike hunt 24.05.2009 01:10 |
Sir GH wrote:lalaalalaa wrote: I seem to be one of a few that actually enjoys Rain Must Fall.Me too. I think it's a great, under-rated song. The keyboards date it, but the songwriting itself is great. To me, The Miracle is the band's strongest album from the 80s. But it's not nearly as strong as Innuendo, which was the closest the band ever came to recapturing the spirit of A Night At The Opera. I really don't get why Party and Khashoggi's Ship get flack from so many fans. They are brilliant compositions, filled with Queen trademarks, one of which is treading down territory that they'd touch once and never again. From the first notes of Party to the epic nature of Was It All Worth It, The Miracle is a very solid rock album. I thought I was the only one who liked rain must fall. I think musically and vocally it's very good and has good lryics. Love brians guitar sound.... When I first heard this album in 89 I liked only 4 songs, I want it all, the title track, breakthru and was it all worth it?...but most of the other songs grew me over the years, even "my baby does me" which I hated has a cool sound. Overall, it's still one of my least favorite queen albums. No way is it better than the game, that's their best 80's album. The only songs I still don't like are party, the worst opening track of any queen album, only the cosmo's rockin is worse, lol, and Invisable man. |
| Back2TheLight 24.05.2009 04:45 |
I Want It All was the first song that drew me to Queen, and still love the song very much to this day. Innuendo, as everyone has said and agreed on this post was a far stronger album, but The Miracle definately has it's merits without question. Freddie was in such strong voice by this point...coming right off of the whole Barcelona venture with Montserrat, and with Brian just playing his heart out throughout the whole album, it still makes The Miracl VERY enjoyable! It is one of the more played CD's in my car... |
| lalaalalaa 24.05.2009 15:05 |
mike hunt wrote:Sir GH wrote:I thought I was the only one who liked rain must fall. I think musically and vocally it's very good and has good lryics. Love brians guitar sound.... When I first heard this album in 89 I liked only 4 songs, I want it all, the title track, breakthru and was it all worth it?...but most of the other songs grew me over the years, even "my baby does me" which I hated has a cool sound. Overall, it's still one of my least favorite queen albums. No way is it better than the game, that's their best 80's album. The only songs I still don't like are party, the worst opening track of any queen album, only the cosmo's rockin is worse, lol, and Invisable man.lalaalalaa wrote: I seem to be one of a few that actually enjoys Rain Must Fall.Me too. I think it's a great, under-rated song. The keyboards date it, but the songwriting itself is great. To me, The Miracle is the band's strongest album from the 80s. But it's not nearly as strong as Innuendo, which was the closest the band ever came to recapturing the spirit of A Night At The Opera. I really don't get why Party and Khashoggi's Ship get flack from so many fans. They are brilliant compositions, filled with Queen trademarks, one of which is treading down territory that they'd touch once and never again. From the first notes of Party to the epic nature of Was It All Worth It, The Miracle is a very solid rock album. Rain Must Fall is one of many examples of Queen's diversity in genres. It was very creative and it sounds like something you might find on a YES album (or Rick Wakeman solo). |
| Paulos 24.05.2009 15:33 |
The Miracle was the first new Queen album that came out when i was a fan (first got into them in late 86). Id been waiting for this for over 2 years after thinking about nothing but Queen night and day. I was 16, just left school, and remember it was a sunny day and i called into the music department at WHSmith to buy it. They were playing some music and even though Freddie wasnt singing i knew it was Queen, turned out it wss Was It All Worth It. I remember buying it on vinyl and taking it home on the bus studying the face on the cover thinking 'how did they do that'!? I loved the album, played it to death. I dont know if its the fact that it hasnt aged well or my tastes have changed but i really think there only 4 decent songs on there now - IWIA, Scandal, The Miracle and WIAWI. In my mind they should have included My Life has been Saved and TMLWKY, whilst leaving off the awful Invisible Man and My Baby Does Me. It would have been a more darker record but would have given it more depth. |
| ITSM 24.05.2009 16:22 |
The Miracle was the first Queen album I bought, and I have great memories from it! It was summer, and I still consider it a "summer album", like Made in Heaven is a "winter album"... I think the best songs are Was it All Worth It, My Baby Does Me, The Miracle, Breakthru and Scandal. Party and K. Ship starts the album nice, I think. I think it has aged well, and is the best album from the '80s... |
| maxpower 26.05.2009 04:45 |
I haven't listened to it myself for years don't ask me how long, as you say it's now 20 years old but I have a feeling in two years time Innunedo will sound the newer of the two. |
| andreas_mercury 26.05.2009 07:13 |
Russian Headlong wrote: what a shame, because had he come out ealier about his disease maybe, just maybe he could have had a magic johnson type revival?or he might have died on the stage. |
| Micrówave 26.05.2009 14:28 |
Amazon wrote:ThomasQuinn wrote:Exactly, which is why I specifically excluded it. Funny thing is that although it is a soundtrack, numerous sources such as Queenpedia list it as a studio album. But, yeh, I certainly do agree that it's not a studio album.Amazon wrote: I consider The Miracle to be Queen's weakest classical era studio album (excluding Flash.)Flash Gordon isn't technically a "studio album", it's an O.S.T. So where was it recorded then? That's right!!! A studio!!!! Which makes it a STUDIO ALBUM. Yes, it is also an OST, but technically it is still considered a STUDIO ALBUM. An OST like Cats or Miss Saigon would NOT be considered Studio albums because they were recorded in front of a live audience. Vultan forgives you both but wants you to listen to his theme again 10 times before you go to sleep tonight and each night for the next two weeks. Think of it as a Flash Novena for your blasphemy. |
| maxpower 26.05.2009 17:35 |
So where does A Kind of Magic fit? Only two of those songs (not the extra cd bonuses) weren't featured in a movie, anyway I figure Flash an album as it was created in a studio not live like somone else said, but always don't directly compare it to "regular" albums. Anyway going back to The Miracle I listened to Party & Khashoggi's & nearly stopped it there but listened to the title track & just couldn't carry on with it but I'll try again some other time |
| jozef 27.05.2009 08:39 |
The Miracle = the worst band's album and from such sad period of the Freddie's life ... |
| Valentine '90 27.05.2009 10:50 |
I always enjoy Party, My Babe Does Me and Rain Must Fall as well as other great songs! I personally think that on this album they were entertaining themselves with techno sound - they used much more "computer effects" than they did with Hot Space. I guess that was fashion in late 80 Anyway, I LOVE every song, aside from Khashoggi's Ship and I'm not very fond of Miracle and Invisible Man |
| Amazon 27.05.2009 11:44 |
Micrówave wrote:Amazon wrote:So where was it recorded then? That's right!!! A studio!!!! Which makes it a STUDIO ALBUM. Yes, it is also an OST, but technically it is still considered a STUDIO ALBUM. An OST like Cats or Miss Saigon would NOT be considered Studio albums because they were recorded in front of a live audience. Vultan forgives you both but wants you to listen to his theme again 10 times before you go to sleep tonight and each night for the next two weeks. Think of it as a Flash Novena for your blasphemy.ThomasQuinn wrote:Exactly, which is why I specifically excluded it. Funny thing is that although it is a soundtrack, numerous sources such as Queenpedia list it as a studio album. But, yeh, I certainly do agree that it's not a studio album.Amazon wrote: I consider The Miracle to be Queen's weakest classical era studio album (excluding Flash.)Flash Gordon isn't technically a "studio album", it's an O.S.T. I don't agree with that. Just because an OST was recorded in a studio does not make it a studio album. Greatest Hits albums generally contain songs which are recorded in the studio; yet it doesn't make them studio albums. IMO the term 'studio album' can only be applied to original studio recordings which are not based upon a film, which is why if someone asked me how many studio albums did classical Queen release, I would respond with 14 + a soundtrack. AKOM is ambigurous but I don't consider it to be a soundtrack as not all the songs featured in Highlander and the album is more inspired by Highlander rather than based on it (with the posible exception of Don't Lose Your Head). It is tricky but certainly I don't consider Flash to be a studio album just as I don't consider Greatest Hits II to be a studio album. Addtionally Miss Saigon and Cats are live albums. |
| maxpower 27.05.2009 21:25 |
I also think having listened to the demo earlier today I Guess We're Falling Out would have improved the album no end pity |
| The Real Wizard 28.05.2009 13:27 |
Amazon wrote: Just because an OST was recorded in a studio does not make it a studio album. Right, but in the case of Flash Gordon, it was released as a Queen album, not a soundtrack. |
| Amazon 28.05.2009 15:16 |
Sir GH wrote:Amazon wrote: Just because an OST was recorded in a studio does not make it a studio album.Right, but in the case of Flash Gordon, it was released as a Queen album, not a soundtrack. True, but I still think it's a soundtrack as IMO it can't be divorced from the film. It' not a big deal as Flash is just as legitmate as any other Queen album, but I do agree with Queenpedia that Queen's releasing it as a proper studio album was a mistake. The fact that Flash is mostly instrumental and is a direct soundtrack, already sets it apart from other albums IMO, and as such I always find it problematic to refer to it as a studio album. An original album, yes, but a studio album, no. |
| The Real Wizard 28.05.2009 15:38 |
Fair enough. As fans of music, we're inclined to think that way. But Brian has recently said it was a proper Queen album, so who are we to say otherwise? |
| Dusta 28.05.2009 17:21 |
I really enjoy this type of thread! Thanks for starting it! The Miracle has always been my least favorite Queen album(I've been a Queen fan for a very long time--since 1974. I am ANCIENT), and, one that got played very little after purchase. In fact, I do not even have the CD, however, after reading through, here, I think I need to go out and buy it, and, give it another listen! |
| MmP 28.05.2009 18:09 |
To me this Album is the comeback of Queen old creatives days. Don't you think? At least I see some of that magic back lost since the Jazz album or even The Game. And you can tell it by comarping every song with any of The Works, which look pretty much static and insulse. Of course the result of the album is a little shaky, but the overall result is more than enjoyable. Plus Freddie's voice is much better than the previous albums. |
| Rubbersuit 28.05.2009 20:20 |
My God I feel old.... Anyways... Didn't like it much then, haven't listened to it in years. 20 years you say? Geez.... |
| Mack2008 29.05.2009 09:47 |
I'm in shock at this topic! I really hadn't given it much thought and I can't believe 20 years have passed since Miracle came out. I've been listening to Queen since the 70s so in my mind I always consider The Miracle to be a "recent" album. 20 years....wow...how quickly time passes. I'm going to get out and actually DO something today - life is short. |
| Sebastian 29.05.2009 10:38 |
Sir GH wrote: Fair enough. As fans of music, we're inclined to think that way. But Brian has recently said it was a proper Queen album, so who are we to say otherwise? Of course the producer would say that... but at the end of the day it's about how each one of us feels about the concept of 'proper (Queen) album'. IMO, 'Flash' is, 'Made in Heaven' isn't, and there could be thousands of people agreeing and disagreeing with both. Word meanings and concepts aren't an exact science. |
| Benn 29.05.2009 10:45 |
Their best rock song of the 80's Was It All Worth It almost seems to have been completely forgotten - again a product of the trend for pumping out the chart-friendly singles format. I always imagine a Queen show starting with Chinese Torture on a tape and bursting into the riff for WIAWI a-la the '77 concert opener. |
| Sebastian 29.05.2009 10:57 |
I often wonder how its video would be... |
| The Real Wizard 29.05.2009 13:03 |
Sebastian wrote:Sir GH wrote: Fair enough. As fans of music, we're inclined to think that way. But Brian has recently said it was a proper Queen album, so who are we to say otherwise?Of course the producer would say that... but at the end of the day it's about how each one of us feels about the concept of 'proper (Queen) album'. IMO, 'Flash' is, 'Made in Heaven' isn't, and there could be thousands of people agreeing and disagreeing with both. Word meanings and concepts aren't an exact science. Of course... a very fair point. But I think in a case like this, a member of the band can veto it, as it's ultimately their art to label. |
| Sebastian 29.05.2009 13:21 |
Yes and no... if I write a poem in English and say it's in German, it's still in English... no matter what I, the author, think of it. Same if I write a horror film and label it as comedy, or if I take a B/W pic and say it's sepia, etc. And also, just because one member of the band thinks 'x' project is a true Queen album, doesn't necessarily mean the other three also think that; it doesn't mean they don't either. What if a member of Treasure Moment labels their art as better than Beatles and Mozart? Should we assume it's right just because they say so? |
| The Real Wizard 29.05.2009 14:27 |
Sebastian wrote: if I write a poem in English and say it's in German, it's still in English... no matter what I, the author, think of it. So you are suggesting that the terms "album" and "soundtrack" are as rigidly defined as the terms English and German? |
| Sebastian 29.05.2009 17:13 |
In a way, yes: languages aren't as rigid as one may think. If I write 'mazel tov! tell Angelique's fiancé to get here pronto - I want to meet her new beau', I'm still writing in English, but some people may doubt how 'purely' because of Hebrew, French and Spanish terms being introduced. Likewise, an album could still be an album regardless of the film snippets thrown in, but at the end of the day the 'purity' is depending on each person. |
| The Real Wizard 29.05.2009 18:03 |
Huh... you learn something every day. |
| andreas_mercury 30.05.2009 02:42 |
Sebastian wrote: In a way, yes: languages aren't as rigid as one may think. If I write 'mazel tov! tell Angelique's fiancé to get here pronto - I want to meet her new beau', I'm still writing in English, but some people may doubt how 'purely' because of Hebrew, French and Spanish terms being introduced. Likewise, an album could still be an album regardless of the film snippets thrown in, but at the end of the day the 'purity' is depending on each person.no, i will still say you are speaking english but you watch too much television. |
| Amazon 30.05.2009 07:20 |
Sir GH wrote: Fair enough. As fans of music, we're inclined to think that way. But Brian has recently said it was a proper Queen album, so who are we to say otherwise? I do think it's a proper album, in terms of it being a legitimate album. It's legitimacy has never been questioned by me. The only Queen album whose legitimacy I question is TCR, but that would take an entire essay to discuss. You know, it's interesting. Other than the quality of different songs, I rarely question the judgements of Queen. Going to Sun City, the WWRY musical, continuing as 'Queen' post Freddie & John, and referring to Flash as a studio album are the only times in which I've questioned their judgement. In this case, I'm doing so partly because I honestly regard Flash to be a soundtrack rather than a studio album, but also because I think it's unfair to Flash that it be described as a studio album. Queenpedia has referred to it as the black sheep in Queen's (classical) discography. A member of this site has referred to it as Queen's 'redheaded step-child.' Certainly, I would rank it below my least favourite conventional studio albums, although I don't really think it can be compared to the other albums. I mean, The Miracle is my least favourite conventional studio album. I prefer it to Flash, but that's like comparing apples and oranges, thay are that different. I would imagine that even its most passionate fans would struggle to compare it to the other albums due to its unique nature. My point is that I do consider it to be a soundtrack (it's directly based on a film) but its unique nature is such that I honestly don't think it can be compared to the other, more conevntional Queen albums. Incidentally, although I rarely listen to it, I do think that it showcases what an interesting and creative experimental roock band Queen truly are ( or were.) |
| Sebastian 30.05.2009 10:11 |
andreas_mercury wrote:Sebastian wrote: In a way, yes: languages aren't as rigid as one may think. If I write 'mazel tov! tell Angelique's fiancé to get here pronto - I want to meet her new beau', I'm still writing in English, but some people may doubt how 'purely' because of Hebrew, French and Spanish terms being introduced. Likewise, an album could still be an album regardless of the film snippets thrown in, but at the end of the day the 'purity' is depending on each person.no, i will still say you are speaking english but you watch too much television. Actually, I don't: only Britain's Got Talent but that ends up tonight. I love the odd programme like 'New Tricks', 'Scrubs' or 'Lewis', but I mostly watch downloaded episodes, not on telly. |
| Sheer Brass Neck 30.05.2009 10:23 |
That's interesting about not feeling that TCR was a proper studio album, Amazon. Without (or with!) an essay, why would you feel this way? For me, MIH isn't a studio (or Queen) album, just curious about your TCR thoughts. |
| Amazon 30.05.2009 10:59 |
Sebastian wrote:Sir GH wrote: Fair enough. As fans of music, we're inclined to think that way. But Brian has recently said it was a proper Queen album, so who are we to say otherwise?Of course the producer would say that... but at the end of the day it's about how each one of us feels about the concept of 'proper (Queen) album'. IMO, 'Flash' is, 'Made in Heaven' isn't, and there could be thousands of people agreeing and disagreeing with both. Word meanings and concepts aren't an exact science. Sebastian, this is as good a time as any, but I've been to your site a few times, and although I think it's wonderful, [img=/images/smiley/msn/teeth_smile.gif][/img] there were a couple of things on which I disagreed. One related to MIH. Why do you not consider it to be a proper album? I believe that your objection is due to so much 'recycled' material, but does it really matter when a song was written and whether it was specifically intended for a particular album? Take Let Me Live. I'll say straight off that I love this song, but regardless of taste, even if Queen wrote it in 1983, does that truly affect the legitimacy of MIH? Afterall, several other songs, including WATC were written previously. Also, if one takes the covers of 4 solo songs, how does that affect MIH, considering that so many of Led Zeppelin's early albums featured covers? |
| Amazon 30.05.2009 11:09 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: That's interesting about not feeling that TCR was a proper studio album, Amazon. Without (or with!) an essay, why would you feel this way? For me, MIH isn't a studio (or Queen) album, just curious about your TCR thoughts. Well, I actually misspoke. I do acknowledge that it is a proper studio album, just like any other proper studio album. However I don't consider it to be a proper Queen album. It's more of a 'Queen' album for me, rather than a Queen album. My partner refers to it as a non-classical Queen album, and I think she's right. [img=/images/smiley/msn/teeth_smile.gif][/img] Certainly I'm with Sebastain and others who feel that that the name Queen shouldn't have been used for the album. I guess I referred to it as a non-proper album in this discussion as I wanted to make clear that no matter what status is given to Flash, IMO it will always have more legitimacy among Queen works than TCR. BTW, why do you not consider MIH to be a studio or Queen album? |
| Sheer Brass Neck 30.05.2009 11:22 |
Thanks Amazon. I'm in the "not Queen" camp for TCR myself! MIH isn't a studio album, and this could open up a can of worms and "but only Roger plays on Fight from the Inside so does that mean it's not a Queen song?" type of discussions, so here's why I don't think it is. The context of songs were changed to fir the concept of MIH, which is not a group effort when one of the group (who wrote most of the material) is dead. The song MIH from Mr. Bad Guy, was a fairly upbeat ditty, and after the last line where Freddie sings "written in the stars", it fades out over a major key piano sequence. But on MIH, it became plodding with the big Queen drums, a solo that wasn't there before, and worst of all, for me, the ending after "written in the stars", is dark and minor keyed. It's about Freddie, and the album being "made" while Freddie was in "heaven." The original song may have been about life in general being a piece of heaven. It could have been about Freddie's night at London gay club "Heaven" in the 80s. But the MIH version changed the tone, which I find dishonest. It's not the song the author wanted (nor was IWBTLY), it's a patchwork that was meant to make songs, finished or otherwise, solo or discarded, sound like a Queen album. To do so without the input of arguably the driving creative force made it a cynical, manipulative album for me. Some people love it though, musically I don't, conceptually I think it's dishonest. |
| Amazon 30.05.2009 11:29 |
That's really interesting SBN. I don't own either of Freddie's solo albums (yet) so I didn't know that. Can I ask; musically aside, knowing that by the time of his death Freddie was working on another Queen album so MIH didn't come out of nowhere, does that make it less dishonest in your eyes? |
| Pim Derks 30.05.2009 11:34 |
But the MIH version changed the tone, which I find dishonest. It's not the song the author wanted (nor was IWBTLY), it's a patchwork that was meant to make songs, finished or otherwise, solo or discarded, sound like a Queen album. To do so without the input of arguably the driving creative force made it a cynical, manipulative album for me. Some people love it though, musically I don't, conceptually I think it's dishonest. The tracks Made In Heaven and I Was Born To Love You show exactly why Freddie was NOT Queen and people should stop their wining about Freddie being the almighty genius in the band. While the Freddie versions are crappy 80's tunes which were dated the day after they were released, the 1995 Queen versions are among the best tracks in their catalogue and still kick ass to this day - almost 14 years later. Patchwork or not, Made In Heaven has always been one of my favourite Queen-albums. Together with Innuendo the only post-Game output which is essential listening IMO. |
| Sebastian 30.05.2009 11:48 |
There are several interesting points there. I'm gonna put my opinion and of course you're more than entitled to agree or disagree with it: Man from Manhattan features the two Queen members who wrote most of the songs, did most of the arrangements, participated the most in production, were most important to the band's image and shared the largest amount of fans. But it's still not a Queen song or a Queen + Eddie song. Reason? No John & no Roger = no Queen. Bijou is written, arranged and performed by the two Queen members who wrote most of the songs, did most of the arrangements, participated the most in production, were most important to the band's image and shared the largest amount of fans. But it's still a Queen song since it's co-produced (at least executively) by Roger and John, and it had to go through their approval to be on the album. You Nearly Did Me In features three Queen members, but it's still not a Queen song or a Queen + Ian song. No John, no Queen. Same for the kids' Who Wants to Live Forever - no Freddie, no Queen. Same , of course, for 'The Cosmos Rocks'. All of that IMHO. Btw, Fight From the Inside features Brian. As for 'Made in Heaven', I think it's an extraordinary project (music-wise) and it's incredibly well-produced. But, it's not a proper album for me, considering only three songs are post-Innuendo. Sure, Champions and Sheer Heart Attack were written before 'News', but still 80+% of the album is brand new and the recordings are also brand new (AFAIK). In 'Made in Heaven', most of the vocal and piano tracks had come from many years earlier. It's more a sort of compilation/rework with three post-'Innuendo' songs, marketed (at the moment) as an album made by a dying Fred begging B+R to write songs for him (which is paradoxical since the three post-'Innuendo' things are written or co-written by Mercury himself). Great project, but not a Queen album IMO. But, when (rather than if) I make a new version of my website I am gonna include MIH. The time will come... |
| Amazon 30.05.2009 12:42 |
Pim Derks, I agree with you. MIH is one of my favourite Queen albums as well, and was IMO their best album since The Game (perhaps even since some of their 70's works but I'm not sure about that.) Sebastian, I found your post to be fascinating. I take it that you also don't consider 'No-One But You' to be a Queen song since it didn't feature Freddie? |
| Sheer Brass Neck 30.05.2009 13:46 |
Pim, when you say, "The tracks Made In Heaven and I Was Born To Love You show exactly why Freddie was NOT Queen and people should stop their wining about Freddie being the almighty genius in the band. While the Freddie versions are crappy 80's tunes which were dated the day after they were released, the 1995 Queen versions are among the best tracks in their catalogue and still kick ass to this day - almost 14 years later", that's not the point. I agree 100% that the recording and playing is better. However, when Freddie WROTE and RECORDED those songs for Mr. Bad Guy, one would have to assume as the artist of a large band, he had some degree of creative control. I don't think Freddie wanted Mr. Bad Guy to be Queen-singer-does-Queenlikesongs-without-Queen. So what we got is an album of songs, dated or not, that came out exactly how Freddie wanted them to. Now he passes away, we're hearing instrumentation and arrangements that he had no say in (there goes the band's democratic process, plus Brian said the song author always got final say), plus for me, manipulating key changes that the author didn't want takes a song like MIH into maudlin, creepy territory. IMO. Let's say Brian passed away, and Freddie was in control of the posthumous recording process. Would we say it would be okay for Freddie and the remaining members to change a song like Back to the Light into a brooding minor key mopefest? That song was about Brian's struggles to return to mental health and happiness, and despite the subject matter, is musically optimistic. Freddie could construe it as a mopey ballad when it was redone, which to me is a disservice to the author, and creatively dishonest. If that's the case, let's go back and make Bohemian Rhapsody more hip-hop sounding, Long Away techno, and let's give that Mona Lisa a little bit of a frown for these times. I'm sure that DaVinci would approve of his vision being reworked. |
| Sebastian 30.05.2009 14:51 |
After all, Alice Baily was Da Vinci's favourite painter. |
| Pim Derks 30.05.2009 15:13 |
Sebastian, I found your post to be fascinating. I take it that you also don't consider 'No-One But You' to be a Queen song since it didn't feature Freddie? I believe Sebastian considers it 'the best Queen song even though it isn't a Queen song'. Or something totally ridiculous like that. |
| Sebastian 30.05.2009 17:37 |
No, I don't consider it the best Queen song. I consider it better than most Queen songs (maybe it'd only lose to '39), but it's not a Queen song IMO. And it's not something ridiculous at all. What's the need to cyber-bully someone just because you disagree with them? |
| Pim Derks 30.05.2009 18:19 |
link 5th post down. |
| Sebastian 30.05.2009 19:05 |
'Better than any Queen song' is different to 'the best Queen song'. Again, why do you cyber-stalk me? |
| 4 x Vision 30.05.2009 20:10 |
Pim Derks wrote: link 5th post down. Fuck me... that thread was from April 2008... that's one of the saddest things i've ever witnessed on this site. Have you actually waited all that time to pull him up on that. Back to discussion... MIh is def a Queen album IMO, and the Freddie tracks do sound better reworked by the group... as did Roger's Heaven for Everyone sound better reworked on MIH, as would prob any of their solo works.... Brian included, should they have more input from the rest of the band. Queen where alsways WAY better than anything individual. Maybe Barcelona would be the exception. That bit above is still freaky as fuck tho... ha ha... you either hate this guy or have a very good memory, either way... weird. |
| Sebastian 30.05.2009 21:10 |
It's not only about hating me or having a good memory, it's about: - Answering a question that was directed to me, as if I couldn't write by myself or as if he needs to keep track of what other people say to me (either case: stalking). - Meddling in a respectful conversation with a disrespectful comment. Would he make the 'totally ridiculous' remark if another person had said the NOBY thing? - Bringing up something I wrote over a year ago. - Changing the wording and, in the process, the whole meaning of it. And by the way, now I wish I'd written 'the best Queen song although it wasn't Queen', because it'd have been a bit witty, as many paradoxes are. For instance: - An English horn is neither English nor a horn - The best Portuguese footballer of all time (IMO) wasn't Portuguese - Freddie Mercury, one of the greatest British musicians of the last century, wasn't English - Led Zeppelin's most easily recognisable song wasn't issued as single (at least not originally) - The guitar used for the Innuendo solo looks and sounds like an acoustic but is electric - Freddie's most poignant farewell songs (Days of Our Lives and The Show Must Go On) weren't written by him - Rowan Atkinson's greatest skill (IMO) is his voice, yet he's best-known outside the UK for an almost mute character Back to topic, I do think 'Made in Heaven' versions outdo the original ones in most cases (not Too Much Love, but it's a matter of taste, I'm more classical-oriented so I'm obviously more fond of the acoustic solo), but it's not a matter of 'Fred vs the others', it's a matter of trends ('Mr Bad Guy' was made in the disco era, 'MIH' was made in the 'adult-contemporary' era), production (Mack vs David Richards), team-work ('thanks to Roger, John and Brian for staying out of it' or something like that, vs the whole 'made in heaven' idea), technology, experience, money (they all had home studios by then, and each could work on his part separately without the others harassing him or causing conflict), time-span ('Bad Guy' was made by one bloke in the few spare days he had from touring and recording with Queen, 'MIH' was made by three people in a 4 year period where both their concerts and recordings were more occasional), etc. It's not something valid (IMO) to put down Freddie (and I'm not insinuating any of you is 'putting down' Freddie, BTW). It's like assuming Prophet's Song is by Freddie and/or John because there's no song like it on TCR (AFAIK). |
| Sheer Brass Neck 30.05.2009 23:35 |
Sebastian vs. Pim aside, Pim, I'd like you to answer a question. one of the things I find frustrating about QZ is that threads die because of ignorance relating to the subject. It's easier to say "Brian and Roger deserve to call it Queen so shut up", then to debate the merits of an issue. So, with that as a starting point, how would you feel if the Queen catalogue was entirely reworked, depending on the whims of whichever surviving member and how they felt the song should sound. If John Deacon believed White Queen should be funkified with lots of bass, would it be okay? And Ray Gaga, who comes in here form time to time yelling about whatever he wants to yell about without offering sensible analysis, great, you want Adam Lambert and anyone who doesn't is a dinosaur. That's fine. Why do you think it's good? Do you believe in Queen as a brand, or a musical act? Should the Beatles reform with Justin Timberlake and Kylie Minogue replacing Lennon and Harrison? Would that be blasphemy? Well, to me Adam Lambert, 1/1000th of the bona fides that Paul Rodgers (who was nothing like a Queen singer) is blasphemous. Please explain what he would bring to the mix (talent and charisma, probably, writing, musicianship, stage presence comparable to Freddie, highly unlikely). if Brian died and John Friuscante from the Red Hot Chili Peppers took over guitar duties is it still Queen. Or the guy from Jesus and Mary Chanin who played an out of tune guitar and was nonsensical as a musician. Is that still Queen? I'd like answers because it's easy to call someone out, but let's have an honest discussion about stuff. |
| mike hunt 31.05.2009 00:54 |
Pim Derks wrote:But the MIH version changed the tone, which I find dishonest. It's not the song the author wanted (nor was IWBTLY), it's a patchwork that was meant to make songs, finished or otherwise, solo or discarded, sound like a Queen album. To do so without the input of arguably the driving creative force made it a cynical, manipulative album for me. Some people love it though, musically I don't, conceptually I think it's dishonest.The tracks Made In Heaven and I Was Born To Love You show exactly why Freddie was NOT Queen and people should stop their wining about Freddie being the almighty genius in the band. While the Freddie versions are crappy 80's tunes which were dated the day after they were released, the 1995 Queen versions are among the best tracks in their catalogue and still kick ass to this day - almost 14 years later. Patchwork or not, Made In Heaven has always been one of my favourite Queen-albums. Together with Innuendo the only post-Game output which is essential listening IMO. lol, Another Jealous roger fan. Freddie and brian were the genious of queen. Get over it!...Mr. bad guy was a solo album, and not meant to be a masterpiece rock album like queen would make., that's what a solo album suppose to be, trying something different, lol.... Barcelona was indeed genious, and was better than most queen albums IMO. |
| Pim Derks 31.05.2009 04:31 |
mike hunt wrote: lol, Another Jealous roger fan. Freddie and brian were the genious of queen. Get over it!...Mr. bad guy was a solo album, and not meant to be a masterpiece rock album like queen would make., that's what a solo album suppose to be, trying something different, lol.... Barcelona was indeed genious, and was better than most queen albums IMO. Another Roger-fan my ass. If Freddie wanted to do something not-Queen like with his solo-career, why did he instruct the guitarplayer on She Blows Hot and Cold to sound like Brian May, why did he re-record TMBTLTT which was originally a Queen-song, why did he release Love Kills as a solo-track when it originally was a Queen song (and still features Brian / Roger I believe?), Man Made Paradise was also a Queen-track etc. Brian also commented on this last year or so in his soapbox. If I'm not mistaken 1978-1984 were the 'toughest' years in the band. I wouldn't be suprised if Mr Bad Guy wouldn't have happened at all if they got along better during this era - and so most of the songs on Mr Bad Guy might've ended up on a Queen-album anyway. And Sebastian - nothing to do with cyberstalking. I just have a very good memory for things like that. |
| mike hunt 31.05.2009 05:00 |
Pim Derks wrote:mike hunt wrote: lol, Another Jealous roger fan. Freddie and brian were the genious of queen. Get over it!...Mr. bad guy was a solo album, and not meant to be a masterpiece rock album like queen would make., that's what a solo album suppose to be, trying something different, lol.... Barcelona was indeed genious, and was better than most queen albums IMO.Another Roger-fan my ass. If Freddie wanted to do something not-Queen like with his solo-career, why did he instruct the guitarplayer on She Blows Hot and Cold to sound like Brian May, why did he re-record TMBTLTT which was originally a Queen-song, why did he release Love Kills as a solo-track when it originally was a Queen song (and still features Brian / Roger I believe?), Man Made Paradise was also a Queen-track etc. Brian also commented on this last year or so in his soapbox. If I'm not mistaken 1978-1984 were the 'toughest' years in the band. I wouldn't be suprised if Mr Bad Guy wouldn't have happened at all if they got along better during this era - and so most of the songs on Mr Bad Guy might've ended up on a Queen-album anyway. And Sebastian - nothing to do with cyberstalking. I just have a very good memory for things like that. what the hell are you talking about?...The bottom line is roger is forgettable, no one even mentions the man as one of the top drummers of his time. Only little wannabe roger fanatics like you mention him. |
| Sebastian 31.05.2009 22:57 |
Asking one guitarist to emulate Brian's style on one solo on one song (that wasn't even included on the album at the end of the day) proves absolutely nothing. Back to the Prophet's Song point... As for cyber-stalking, I keep my position: one thing's to have 'good memory' (which is funny because you didn't even remember the exact quote, but were ready to answer a question directed to me, why do you care anyway?), and another is to behave that way. AFAIK, I've never done things like that with you or things you've written, so I'd appreciate if you return the favour. What I find strange about 'The Miracle' (since we were sidetracked enough), is that they had (roughly) 30 songs to choose from, which more or less points at none of the ten chosen ones being a 'filler', yet the final setlist was disappointing to say the least. They had some nice tunes like Hang On In There and My Life Has Been Saved... neither of which was a masterpiece but both of which were a hell of a lot better than Party, Khashoggi's Ship, Rain Must Fall and My Baby Does Me combined (IMO). Of course, there could be a lot of reasons behind that, and there's nothing written on stone when it comes to personal tastes or choices, yet it's a bit odd that they picked those four songs which, from virtually any perspective, can't hold a candle to the rest of the album. I mean, Sweet Lady is rarely a favourite, but it's still got loads of great details about it: great harmonies, great drumming, great guitar playing... but 'The Miracle' has several tracks which ten years prior would'nt have been even considered for release. 30 songs, and those were the best 10? No way! |
| Yara 31.05.2009 23:34 |
August R. wrote: Just realised it's been 20 years since The Miracle album was released. This also marks my 20years of being a Queen fan. I Want It All was the first Queen song I fell in love with all those years ago and The Miracle was my soundtrack album of the summer '89. Good memories!!! This album will always have a special place in my heart. Anyway, what are yor thoughts on The Miracle? Has it aged well? You still listen to it? Is it rubbish? Or a gem? What are your favourite songs from the album? I still like this album a lot, and I think it's got some great songs on it. My favourites being The Miracle, I Want It All, Breakthru, Scandal and Was It All Worth It. Of course there are some weak moments as well (like Party and Rain Must Fall) but all in all, I think it's one their better albums from the 80's. The decision to credit everything for Queen obviously paid off. But I just can't help thinking that the album could have been even better if they had chosen different songs on it. B-sides like Hang On In There and Hijack My Heart would have made the album more interesting, plus it would have been great to hear Roger singing lead on a Queen album once again. Also, they should have released TMLWKY on the album 'cos the one thing this album lacks is a haunting piano ballad. Your comments, please... Hi, August R. How are you doing? I hope you have a good week. Hm. I don't share your view, I guess. "The Miracle" is unfortunately the Queen album I've found myself coming back to less often - even though the album pleases me and I'd not think of it as rubbish by any means, I listen to it quite rarely, I must say. Even "I want it all" sounds too conventional and cliched for me to really dig it. I can only speak for myself, though. This is, needless to say, only my very personal taste. I find it great that there are people who enjoy the album and I found your comments quite interesting as well as the thread as a whole. Thanks for the great thread! Take care and have a nice week! Yara |
| Pim Derks 01.06.2009 05:17 |
Sebastian wrote: What I find strange about 'The Miracle' (since we were sidetracked enough), is that they had (roughly) 30 songs to choose from, which more or less points at none of the ten chosen ones being a 'filler', yet the final setlist was disappointing to say the least. They had some nice tunes like Hang On In There and My Life Has Been Saved... neither of which was a masterpiece but both of which were a hell of a lot better than Party, Khashoggi's Ship, Rain Must Fall and My Baby Does Me combined (IMO). I think lots of tracks were left of because the original plan (I think) was to release a new album "Another Miracle" in late 1989/early 1990 with the leftover tracks and the b-sides. Ofcourse in true Queen Productions-fashion that got cancelled. |
| Winter Land Man 04.06.2009 20:52 |
August R. wrote: Just realised it's been 20 years since The Miracle album was released. This also marks my 20years of being a Queen fan. I Want It All was the first Queen song I fell in love with all those years ago and The Miracle was my soundtrack album of the summer '89. Good memories!!! This album will always have a special place in my heart. Anyway, what are yor thoughts on The Miracle? Has it aged well? You still listen to it? Is it rubbish? Or a gem? What are your favourite songs from the album? I still like this album a lot, and I think it's got some great songs on it. My favourites being The Miracle, I Want It All, Breakthru, Scandal and Was It All Worth It. Of course there are some weak moments as well (like Party and Rain Must Fall) but all in all, I think it's one their better albums from the 80's. The decision to credit everything for Queen obviously paid off. But I just can't help thinking that the album could have been even better if they had chosen different songs on it. B-sides like Hang On In There and Hijack My Heart would have made the album more interesting, plus it would have been great to hear Roger singing lead on a Queen album once again. Also, they should have released TMLWKY on the album 'cos the one thing this album lacks is a haunting piano ballad. Your comments, please... Used to be my favorite album. It's a great album with one un-catchy song (My Baby Does Me), and to be honest, people say a song like 'Hang On In There' is great and should of been on the album, I disagree as I hate the song and it sounds boring. I think the album needed one of those Freddie written power/love ballads though. That's the worst part of The Miracle... no Freddie love ballad. In fact, there's no love ballads at all. |
| Winter Land Man 04.06.2009 20:55 |
lalaalalaa wrote: I seem to be one of a few that actually enjoys Rain Must Fall. One of my favorites on The Miracle! |
| lalaalalaa 04.06.2009 21:31 |
mike hunt wrote:Pim Derks wrote:what the hell are you talking about?...The bottom line is roger is forgettable, no one even mentions the man as one of the top drummers of his time. Only little wannabe roger fanatics like you mention him.mike hunt wrote: lol, Another Jealous roger fan. Freddie and brian were the genious of queen. Get over it!...Mr. bad guy was a solo album, and not meant to be a masterpiece rock album like queen would make., that's what a solo album suppose to be, trying something different, lol.... Barcelona was indeed genious, and was better than most queen albums IMO.Another Roger-fan my ass. If Freddie wanted to do something not-Queen like with his solo-career, why did he instruct the guitarplayer on She Blows Hot and Cold to sound like Brian May, why did he re-record TMBTLTT which was originally a Queen-song, why did he release Love Kills as a solo-track when it originally was a Queen song (and still features Brian / Roger I believe?), Man Made Paradise was also a Queen-track etc. Brian also commented on this last year or so in his soapbox. If I'm not mistaken 1978-1984 were the 'toughest' years in the band. I wouldn't be suprised if Mr Bad Guy wouldn't have happened at all if they got along better during this era - and so most of the songs on Mr Bad Guy might've ended up on a Queen-album anyway. And Sebastian - nothing to do with cyberstalking. I just have a very good memory for things like that. Roger is a great drummer. Surely not the best but he is great. He's better than most famous drummers. |
| mike hunt 05.06.2009 10:05 |
lalaalalaa wrote:mike hunt wrote:Roger is a great drummer. Surely not the best but he is great. He's better than most famous drummers.Pim Derks wrote:what the hell are you talking about?...The bottom line is roger is forgettable, no one even mentions the man as one of the top drummers of his time. Only little wannabe roger fanatics like you mention him.mike hunt wrote: lol, Another Jealous roger fan. Freddie and brian were the genious of queen. Get over it!...Mr. bad guy was a solo album, and not meant to be a masterpiece rock album like queen would make., that's what a solo album suppose to be, trying something different, lol.... Barcelona was indeed genious, and was better than most queen albums IMO.Another Roger-fan my ass. If Freddie wanted to do something not-Queen like with his solo-career, why did he instruct the guitarplayer on She Blows Hot and Cold to sound like Brian May, why did he re-record TMBTLTT which was originally a Queen-song, why did he release Love Kills as a solo-track when it originally was a Queen song (and still features Brian / Roger I believe?), Man Made Paradise was also a Queen-track etc. Brian also commented on this last year or so in his soapbox. If I'm not mistaken 1978-1984 were the 'toughest' years in the band. I wouldn't be suprised if Mr Bad Guy wouldn't have happened at all if they got along better during this era - and so most of the songs on Mr Bad Guy might've ended up on a Queen-album anyway. And Sebastian - nothing to do with cyberstalking. I just have a very good memory for things like that. I would agree with that, he's a great drummer, but not with the best. |
| The Real Wizard 05.06.2009 13:09 |
But.... who cares? It's not a contest. He was perfect for the band. Instead of working on his chops all day, he wrote songs, and good ones. How many drummers wrote worldwide #1 hits? How many bands had every member write a #1 hit? |
| Sebastian 05.06.2009 14:06 |
I think Roger's very underrated as drummer anyway. Most people think of him as 'the bloke with the high voice', which is true, but there's a lot more: mid-range vocals, low vocals, drumming, songwriting, arranging, producing... The problem is, many people let their personal feelings get in the way of what should be objective perspectives. Myself, I've made that same mistake loads of times too. Certain May fans, for instance, try to justify their choice by putting down Mercury or his contributions, as in an overstretched response to those who worship Freddie to surreal levels. I bet many of those who criticised AI now find it 'ace' because May was in it. But then again, there are also many people who are anti-May, anti-Deacon, anti-Taylor, etc., yet at the end of the day most pros and cons offered are quite dubious, or at least they've all got a strong counterargument: - 'If John's part was so important, why isn't it noticeable?' --> You don't see the beam of a building, but it doesn't mean it's not important. Same for Roger's drumming or Freddie's piano-playing. - 'If Roger's such a good drummer, why isn't he famous?' --> According to that, 'Nevermind' and 'Baby One More Time' are a hell of a lot better than any Queen album. - 'TCR isn't a masterpiece, but Queen had loads of bad songs too' --> IDK about TCR, but is the 'Hot Space / Works' precedent relevant? - 'Mr Bad Guy is shite, while the Queen versions of IWBTLY and MIH are brill': While the premise is true, it doesn't necessarily mean Fred was crap and Brian, Roger and John were geniuses. There are loads of factors involved: and indeed, Mercury deliberately wanted a non-Queen album, which isn't the same as a 'crap' album. - 'It's got synths = it's bad' --> Technically, the human voice is also a synthesiser, and playing/programming keys isn't easy. To make something like the Was It All Worth It interlude you still need to know a lot about music, and you've got to be a capable player. Loads of people prefer the sound of other instruments over synths (I do, for instance), but it doesn't mean synths are evil. They're an alternative, full stop. And so on... |
| Amazon 05.06.2009 16:21 |
Sir GH wrote: But.... who cares? It's not a contest. He was perfect for the band. Instead of working on his chops all day, he wrote songs, and good ones. How many drummers wrote worldwide #1 hits? How many bands had every member write a #1 hit? Of course it's not a contest, but I for one feel proud knowing that that my favourite group produced perhaps the greatest male rock vocalist of all time, one of the absolute greatest guitarists of all time, one of the all-time great drummers who inspired several current-day drummers, as well as an extremely underrated bass player who was also very influential. What's wrong with caring about that? But also, why do you care so much about commercial success? You've written posts praising Dream Theatre's international success and Roger's writing number 1 hits. One could argue that it's irrelevant, and what only matters is that you like Dream Theatre or Roger's writing, but you obviously care. Well, that's the same for the rest of us who like to compare Queen members with people from different groups. |
| Amazon 05.06.2009 16:57 |
Regarding all these comments about Roger not being all that famous, or being best known as the guy with the high voice, is that really true? Granted, he;s not as well known as Brian, but how many living drummers are really all that famous among the general public? Ringo Starr, because of the Beatles; Dave Grohl, as much for the Foo Fighters as for Nirvana; Ginger Baker, purely for Cream; Lars Ulrich, because of Metallica and the Napster thing and Tommy Lee, as much for being married to Pamela Anderson and the sex tape, as for Motley Crue. You could maybe add to that Taylor Hawkins, Larry Mullen Jr and Neil Peart, and even if you added anothe half dozen I didn't mention, that's still less than 15. Roger is arguably equally as famous as several drummers on this list. AI, the Hall of Fame induction, and the fact that Queen has become post-Freddie as big as it ever was (TCR aside) surely has enabled him to achieve a relatively large amount of fame. He'll never be as famous as Brian, but I think he is quite well known. |
| Sebastian 05.06.2009 18:40 |
I don't think anybody's said he's an unknown, but he's surely not as famous as many others. As a matter of fact, relatively few non-Queen-fans would recognise him by name. They'd probably know about a 'blond Queen drummer', or about a 'Brian May sidekick', and that's it. Does it prove he's not very good? Not at all. Does it prove he's a failure? Not at all. But he's of course not a superstar in his own right. |
| Saint Jiub 05.06.2009 22:19 |
Roger Taylor? Didn't he play in Duran Duran and write all the music for the Mad Max and The Road Warrior "studio" albums? Ahem ... The Miracle is my favorite Queen album of the 80's and 90's, and The Invisible Man and Rain Must Fall are two of my favorite 3 songs on the album (Breakthru being the other song). By the way, I must be the only person thinks that Scandal is the worst song on the Miracle |
| The Real Wizard 06.06.2009 01:56 |
Amazon wrote: Of course it's not a contest, but I for one feel proud knowing that that my favourite group produced perhaps the greatest male rock vocalist of all time, one of the absolute greatest guitarists of all time, one of the all-time great drummers who inspired several current-day drummers, as well as an extremely underrated bass player who was also very influential. What's wrong with caring about that? Absolutely nothing! But I think you misinterpreted my intentions. I was saying "who cares" to those who said Roger is an average drummer, as if that's the determining factor of how important he is in the grand scheme of things. I said there's no point of playing the comparison game, as technical ability isn't what ultimately counts. Roger has greatly contributed to popular music by being part of Queen and writing many great songs. Most people tend to think faster drummers are better, so that's why Roger Taylor isn't ever mentioned on top 10 rock drummer lists. But consider the whole picture: he's a rock solid drummer (he never missed a beat, and I've heard about half of Queen's concerts on tape), he is a sensational harmonizer from behind the kit, and has hit songs under his belt. I'd say he's the full package. |
| Pim Derks 06.06.2009 03:01 |
Panchgani wrote: Roger Taylor? Didn't he play in Duran Duran and write all the music for the Mad Max and The Road Warrior "studio" albums? No, Brian May wrote the music to Mad Max. |
| on my way up 06.06.2009 07:15 |
Sebastian wrote: I don't think anybody's said he's an unknown, but he's surely not as famous as many others. As a matter of fact, relatively few non-Queen-fans would recognise him by name. They'd probably know about a 'blond Queen drummer', or about a 'Brian May sidekick', and that's it. Does it prove he's not very good? Not at all. Does it prove he's a failure? Not at all. But he's of course not a superstar in his own right. I think that being a member of Queen is enough to be a superstar;-) it's true that many people will not know his name though. Then again, I think quite a lot of young people might not know Pete Townshend or Ringo Starr either but I, personally, think those 2 are superstars aswell:-)(almost everyone will know The Who or The Beales). |
| Amazon 06.06.2009 13:48 |
Sir GH wrote:Amazon wrote: Of course it's not a contest, but I for one feel proud knowing that that my favourite group produced perhaps the greatest male rock vocalist of all time, one of the absolute greatest guitarists of all time, one of the all-time great drummers who inspired several current-day drummers, as well as an extremely underrated bass player who was also very influential. What's wrong with caring about that?Absolutely nothing! But I think you misinterpreted my intentions. I was saying "who cares" to those who said Roger is an average drummer, as if that's the determining factor of how important he is in the grand scheme of things. I said there's no point of playing the comparison game, as technical ability isn't what ultimately counts. Roger has greatly contributed to popular music by being part of Queen and writing many great songs. Most people tend to think faster drummers are better, so that's why Roger Taylor isn't ever mentioned on top 10 rock drummer lists. But consider the whole picture: he's a rock solid drummer (he never missed a beat, and I've heard about half of Queen's concerts on tape), he is a sensational harmonizer from behind the kit, and has hit songs under his belt. I'd say he's the full package. My apologies. You're absolutely right about him being the full package. He really is amazing. BTW, Sebastian, I don't disagree that Roger isn't a superstar in his own right, but I do question whether that's because he's who he is or because he's a drummer. It seems to me that his lack of individual superstar status is really due to his being a drummer, as unfair as that might be. |
| Saint Jiub 06.06.2009 14:53 |
Pim Derks wrote:Yes ... the Australian Brian May who passed away a few years agoPanchgani wrote: Roger Taylor? Didn't he play in Duran Duran and write all the music for the Mad Max and The Road Warrior "studio" albums?No, Brian May wrote the music to Mad Max. |
| Saint Jiub 06.06.2009 14:53 |
dbl post |
| Sebastian 06.09.2009 18:11 |
Sebastian wrote: But, when (rather than if) I make a new version of my website I am gonna include MIH. The time will come... Over three months later, but there it is: link |
| Vali 07.09.2009 16:48 |
Sebastian wrote:Sebastian wrote: But, when (rather than if) I make a new version of my website I am gonna include MIH. The time will come...Over three months later, but there it is: http://sebastian.queenconcerts.com/f.htm Your work is fantastic Sebastian, many thanks :) |