| thomasquinn 32989 19.05.2009 06:30 |
As a Dutchman, I have a pretty good view of Dutch public opinion, but I find it very difficult to establish the situation in other countries. Here, anti-islamic sentiments and anti-immigrant sentiments have pretty much become synonyms, and the situation is rapidly deteriorating, with a sizeable portion of the population (some 20% according to recent polls) taking a very hostile stand towards muslims and immigrants by supporting the political far right, and an increasing segment of the population (though still, fortunately, relatively small) actually advocating violence and murder towards muslims and immigrants. Is the situation where you live similar to this, or is this something that is mercifully limited to Holland? |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 19.05.2009 09:59 |
i couldnt help but smile at the irony of the 'muslim matrimonials' advert on this page.. however,the answer to your question is "what muslims?" we havent got any registered muslims in Cornwall as was pointed out on local tv when the last census was carried out a few years back. we do however have the largest contingence of registered Jedi in the UK |
| thomasquinn 32989 19.05.2009 13:59 |
JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: i couldnt help but smile at the irony of the 'muslim matrimonials' advert on this page.. however,the answer to your question is "what muslims?" we havent got any registered muslims in Cornwall as was pointed out on local tv when the last census was carried out a few years back. we do however have the largest contingence of registered Jedi in the UK Ah, I see. I might have to move there. I'd rather have a bunch of harmless excentrics than be stuck in the biggest religious brawl since Luther told the Pope where he could shove it. |
| YourValentine 19.05.2009 15:02 |
We have problems with so-called "parallel societies" meaning Muslim immigrants (from Turkey) who do not speak the language, do not obey many laws here and build ghetto-like communities in the poorer parts of the big cities. Since Germans are very afraid to be called racists the issue is not dealt with in a matter-of-fact, effective way but we have the politically correct people on the one hand who demand that German teachers must learn the Turkish language to make it easier for the kids and the neo-nazis on the other end of the spectrum who try to create hatred against the minority - thankfully with little success so far. I think it's not a religious issue at all, it's a cultural issue and Germany has to finally realize that we are a country with immigration and deal with it in an adult way. Then we can have laws like other immigration countries and set out the rules for immigrants. For example it's not a faith issue that women and men have equal rights, it's not in the Quran that Muslims must supress women. If we had immigration laws the immigrants would have to accept the constitution and laws of this country. There are (very few) problems with Islamistic imams and islamistic groups but they are handled by the police like other extremists. |
| john bodega 19.05.2009 15:54 |
I dunno how it works in European nations, but in Australia it comes as no surprise to me when there's an anti-Islamic sentiment. First of all, there's a lot of racist assholes in my country. Second... this happens every generation or so. Once upon a time, Germans (because of WWII) got a lot of crap for being here. My Dad had to put up with that, being a migrant worker in the 60's.... but nowadays, they're that integrated that you really don't get a big anti-German sentiment here unless you talk to people with dementia. It just happens... the Germans, then Greeks, Vietnamise refugees, Lebanese... in no particular order.... when the public suddenly become aware (for whatever reason) of the presence of a particular minority, they go a bit mental about it for a while. I would really like to believe that the hubbub about Islam will pass, and that they'll be regarded (by the sane folk in my land, at least) as jsut as acceptable as anyone else. Fuck's sake, we live in a stolen country anyway.. we could at least share the fucking thing! |
| Dan C. 19.05.2009 19:29 |
To be blunt; It's rampant here. America's pretty bad about it anyway, but it's especially bad in the Southern states. |
| Winter Land Man 19.05.2009 20:24 |
I worked at a store and a guy who is Muslim owns it. His brother moved to town as well and is manager of the store. They are hilarious guys and I've known the owner for about 6 years. There's a few Muslim familes in my town, of about 6,000. I only recall about one person who hates Muslims in this town, and the guy is an old asshole anyways. I hear more rascism and hatred about black people. |
| -fatty- 2850 19.05.2009 23:01 |
Sweet Insanity wrote: I worked at a store and a guy who is Muslim owns it. His brother moved to town as well and is manager of the store. They are hilarious guys and I've known the owner for about 6 years. There's a few Muslim familes in my town, of about 6,000. I only recall about one person who hates Muslims in this town, and the guy is an old asshole anyways. I hear more rascism and hatred about black people. The great thing about Newport is that people of all races, creeds and colours can unite in their dislike of you. fatty. |
| Yara 19.05.2009 23:40 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: As a Dutchman, I have a pretty good view of Dutch public opinion, but I find it very difficult to establish the situation in other countries. Here, anti-islamic sentiments and anti-immigrant sentiments have pretty much become synonyms, and the situation is rapidly deteriorating, with a sizeable portion of the population (some 20% according to recent polls) taking a very hostile stand towards muslims and immigrants by supporting the political far right, and an increasing segment of the population (though still, fortunately, relatively small) actually advocating violence and murder towards muslims and immigrants. Is the situation where you live similar to this, or is this something that is mercifully limited to Holland? Dear Thomas, I hope you're doing fine. You always bring up interesting thoughtful thread. Thanks for this. I think the Brazilian perspective hardly matters here...lol...but, here it goes: we have absolutely no anti-muslim feeling. None at all. In fact, we're here very pro-Muslim and sympathetic to many of their plights in many regions of the world. We have a very big, large Muslim community in Brazil, and there have been post-graduate courses on Arab language, culture and literature, for instance, for a long time. We've had at least three direct translations of the egyptian and syriac versions of1001 Nights from Arabic into Portuguese; at least six or seven of the Q'ran. Both pre-Muslim Arab culture and Muslim Culture - caligraphy, religion, and so on - generate a lot of interest in people. Take politics, for instance: Brazilians, even in foreign relations, tend to be much more sympathetic to Muslims in general, and Palestinians in particular, than to Israel - contrary to what happens in the U.S, I guess. Even though I'm Jewish, very religious - I was brought up in a quite strict hasidic tradition - and lived in Israel for a good deal of time, the only way I can relate to politics is through humanitarian work - the kind of work one does regardless of whether the victims are Muslims, Jews, Christians, Whites, Blacks...whenever brutality is committed and the most basic human rights of people are denied, no matter what's their religion or race, I get saddened. I work translating reports and articles for a Human Rights Organization and that's how I can relate to politics - being against the disrespect for human rights, the rule of law, violence in general, war, racism. I have no interest whatsoever in the official politics of the minor or major parties. Thanks for the thread, my dear, and take care!!! Have a nice day! Yara |
| pma 20.05.2009 03:34 |
There is very little if any visible anti-immigrant sentiment in my neighbourhood. However, this lack of open racism is conpensated by the unreasonable level of open intolerance and hatred directed towards "normal everyday phenomenons" such as bicycling as a form of transport :) |
| thomasquinn 32989 20.05.2009 06:27 |
@ Everyone: So it looks like it's becoming more or less endemic to the western world. Hopefully, it'll just be a short episode, with less disastrous consequences than the anti-semitism of the early 20th century. Thank you for sharing your experiences on the subject; I must say that I recognize quite a bit of it. Scandinavia and South America seem to be coping quite well so far, so the rest of our nations might yet come to their senses...somewhat. As far as I am aware, there have always been xenophobic sentiments in pretty much every country, but I had not experienced anything quite so virulent as the last three to five years. Fortunately, it looks like the sane people still outnumber the bigots. |
| FriedChicken 20.05.2009 10:01 |
Unless you read the Telegraaf, Spits or GeenStijl of course :P |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 20.05.2009 10:47 |
FriedChicken wrote: Unless you read the Telegraaf, Spits or GeenStijl of course :P or the Daily Mail |
| thomasquinn 32989 20.05.2009 11:16 |
Tabloids are of all times and places, I'm afraid. Just different guises. |
| Brandon The Great 20.05.2009 22:16 |
Dan Corson V: December Boy wrote: To be blunt; It's rampant here. America's pretty bad about it anyway, but it's especially bad in the Southern states. To be honest, I am not sure how true that is. I would say that, racism is equally distributed around the world. And, most new studies show that, as older generations die, racism slowly creeps down. |
| Dan C. 21.05.2009 01:10 |
Okay then, I'll sat it's bad in MY area of the South. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 21.05.2009 12:21 |
As far as the US goes, I'd have to agree that it depends on where you are. Granted in the US it was pretty bad after 9-11 (again, mostly limited to the south. I was in MI at the time where there is a LARGE congregation of muslim population and though they were nervous for a while after 9-11 they said they didn't have anything bad happen to them). All I can say in Kansas is that, at least in my area, I haven't seen a Muslim person yet, though I'm sure there are some in the bigger cities I'm not in on a regular basis. We have a bigger problem with racism towards Hispanics here than anything else. I think Zebonka brings up a good point; the racism thing tends to cycle. Though I would add that it cycles depending upon how visible the minority is. Given the religious dress (at least headscarves for women) that many Muslims keep when they move to a new area, that makes it visually obvious that they are outsiders. Combine that with something like the War on Terror and unfortunately it's like walking around with a large bullseye on your back. Not that I'm saying they should forget their religious and cultural manner of dress or anything like that, I personally think that variety is the spice of life. I'm just making an observation. As far as The Netherlands goes, a very dear Dutch friend of mine and I have been talking about this via e-mail for a while now. Support for Wilders and the Christian Democrats in your country growing is, we both think, natural in a time like this and neither of us think Islam really has anything to do with it. Anger towards the European Union, the economic "death spiral" (Jon Stewart's words, not mine), and the contstant media attention to how bad things are tends to result in a socital and political re-trenching; not to mention trying to find a scapegoat to blame it all on. Look at it this way: at least that psycho that tried to kill the Royal Family during Queen's Day wasn't Islamic or a minority. You think anti-minority sentiment is bad now? It would have been what you have now times a million if he had been. |
| ***Marial-B*** 21.05.2009 13:23 |
Well... here in Spain, specially in Gran Canaria, there's a bit of everything. Funny fact that in Venezuela what the president and the people who surrounds him "hate" is the US standarts, but that is masked with the hate for the people who has something. |
| Yara 21.05.2009 16:50 |
AspiringPhilosophe wrote:
As far as the US goes...
------------- Hi, AspiringPhilosophe! :-)) How are you? I hope you're doing fine. I liked your nickname and the Avatar pic is very, very beautiful. I don't think we have talked before, so it's very nice to meet you and "talk" to you! Great post you wrote there. It was very interesting to read it. A delight. Thank you a lot for devoting part of your time to contributing to the discussion. May I ask you something? How do you think that what seems to be like an almost unconditional support by the U.S for Israel factors into all this? I ask you that because I'm Jewish, I have lived in Israel for a good deal of time and part of my free time I devote to translating reports and articles from very respectful Human Rights Org. and it seem to me sometimes that this support makes Muslims ill-disposed towards the U.S and, in return, a small, though vocal, part of the U.S population replies to this resentment in a more offensive way. As Obama is already annoucing that he won't be holding talks to Iran forever, thus hinting at a military offensive, I guess this "hate spiral" may actually increase if proper measures aren't taken - many Muslims here in Lebanese communities in the city I live are all too pissed off with the U.S policy of torturing detainess. This seems to generate hatred among Muslims and the hatred only makes all this worse, I guess. Do you think these major questions regarding foreign relations have a relevant, if at all, impact on anti-Muslim sentiments? The other question, if there were enough time to discuss it :op, would be: how to deal with Iran? That country has a gruesome Human Rights record, and I'm not even talking about the nuclear threats. The regime is already cruel enough, but do you think it may get worse? I fear for the Iranian population. First, because many of them are unwillingly under the boots of a hateful regime; second, because, if any military action takes place, they'd be the first to pay the bill... Your post was a delight to read. I'd love to know what you think about this. Yours, Yara. |
| wstüssyb 21.05.2009 20:33 |
If you go to Detroit is Rampant a little, since there is more Muslims in Detroit then any where else in the states, they are pretty much considered 4th class citizens, after Blacks, Hispanics. Every time I go there it seems each of the ethic communities continue to grow while most of the rich white people move away from the city. You always see White people friendly face to face, but once some one of another race leaves the area the jokes fly. It goes for other races as well. |
| Brandon The Great 22.05.2009 03:34 |
The thing is... there's always going to be racism. Well, for as long as there are "races." It's nice to think it's centrally located in one part of the world, but it's not. Now, personally, I think it's a government-orchestarted hatred to keep us divided; that way, we'll never take a look at what's really going on. BUT!... I was so happy to find a journalist who recently found that, really, the average man doesn't care about race or creed. This is certainly a step in the right direction. |
| Treasure Moment 23.05.2009 21:01 |
fuck all religions, they are for retards who cant think logically. |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 24.05.2009 00:08 |
Nyaw, welcome back TM. As insightful as usual. |
| john bodega 24.05.2009 02:23 |
Treasure Moment wrote: fuck all religions, they are for retards who cant think logically.Absolutely. Now mind altering substances that make you think you're an inter-dimensional being? THAT'S where it's at! |
| The Real Wizard 24.05.2009 02:46 |
Treasure Moment wrote: fuck all religions, they are for retards who cant think logically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism By default, Deism is correct. It assumes that a larger force created the universe, and did nothing else to interact with it after the fact. Many other lines of thought have more or less rendered deism obsolete, but I'm just trying to illustrate that there are religious ideas that can be formed and perpetuated through intellect. The Bahais are pretty intelligent folk too. Look them up as well, if you can pretend to be tolerant for a moment... |
| YourValentine 24.05.2009 03:56 |
I think that racism comes from xenophobia which is very deeply rooted in human beings.It takes common sense and education to overcome racism. It is so much easier to just be scared of someone who looks different, speaks a different language and has other habits. I think Brandon is right saying that governments use xenophobia to manipulate the masses - for example into war and genocide. In Europe racism is not welcome by the ruling powers and therefore it is socially unacceptable while it was used by the Bush regime to gain public approval for their oil wars. However, each individual is equipped and able to overcome xenophobia and racism. We have to learn from history and try hard to be immune against attempts to offer us scapegoats and oversimplified explanations. When I read blogs on the internet on any given topic I am very pessimistic about the results of education and civilization, though. |
| john bodega 24.05.2009 04:09 |
Is it racist to hate everyone? |
| Holly2003 24.05.2009 04:21 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Is it racist to hate everyone? No, that's called "being French". |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 24.05.2009 05:29 |
Holly2003 wrote::-]Zebonka12 wrote: Is it racist to hate everyone?No, that's called "being French". |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 24.05.2009 10:27 |
Ha! |
| Treasure Moment 24.05.2009 12:17 |
Sir GH wrote:Treasure Moment wrote: fuck all religions, they are for retards who cant think logically.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism By default, Deism is correct. It assumes that a larger force created the universe, and did nothing else to interact with it after the fact. Many other lines of thought have more or less rendered deism obsolete, but I'm just trying to illustrate that there are religious ideas that can be formed and perpetuated through intellect. The Bahais are pretty intelligent folk too. Look them up as well, if you can pretend to be tolerant for a moment... Let me explain that better, i do believe there is a god, a force, something that controls and creates however i dont think childrens story books like the bible knows anything about it since all of that is man made crap. |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 24.05.2009 12:32 |
Then how can you possibly claim to be an atheist? You make no sense. |
| Treasure Moment 24.05.2009 12:42 |
Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Then how can you possibly claim to be an atheist? You make no sense. I only say im atheist meaning i dont believe in man made gods of the organized religion, i know i should use another word instead. |
| Yara 24.05.2009 22:56 |
Treasure Moment wrote: fuck all religions, they are for retards who cant think logically. Hi, TM! Nice to hear from you again. I hope you're ok. Religions have indeed caused lots and lots of problems throughout the times. And, I must say, they are still a quite strong force behind much of the hatred and the brutality all over the world: Muslims blowing themselves up and killing innocents, Israel leaders acting like butchers, Catholic priests abusing children, and on and on. The report of what happened in Ireland during the 40's in the Catholic Institutions has just been released, I think - it's just gruesome. It was abuse of children on a massive scale, it seems. And it's not THAT back in time... It's really sad - when I think of a muslim blowing himself up in a bus or a butcher-in-charge as Ariel Sharon was, I get really saddened. I'm deeply religious - I'm Jewish, I've been brought up in a quit rigid hasidic tradition, but the trauma my family went through during the Nazi period helped making my grandparents more tolerant and open-minded and they brought their children this way. My late father was as tolerant as one could expect from a religious person, though my mother, I must point out, has always had a quite harsh way of dealing with people in general because of religion. I guess for people who committ so much violence in the name of "higher goals", be them a divinity or some secular Utopia, we could say something worse than retard - they're inhumane, evil. Take care and have a nice week! Yara |
| Mr.Jingles 25.05.2009 06:28 |
I'm from New York, which is well possibly the most racially and ethnically diverse metropolitan area in the world, and despite of the mix of cultures here, there are many who still complain about the amount of people from other nations who live in this country. What pisses me off the most is that the great mayority of U.S. born New Yorkers descend from immigrants, and never once consider that their ancestors came from a boat that docked at Ellis Island, and they wouldn't like it if someone had told their grandparents to fuck off and go back to their country in the same boat the came from. So for the most part I could say that people here must have a degree of tolerance for other cultures, but there's a good number of douchebags who don't anything but complain instead of moving to a place where everybody is white and christian. Needless to say, after 9/11 the Muslim are the ones who received the worst treatment, and sadly I heard a couple of very malicious comments when a mosque opened a few blocks from my parents' house. It's been about 7 years, and this mosque hasn't seemed to affect anyone in the slightest form, and yet I'm sure some fuckin' moron will complain about it. Shamefully I have to say that our Congressional district representative is a fuckin' racist cunt, who is endorses racial profiling and said that in this country "there's too many mosques". Now he might run for the Senate, and I'm seriously hoping that he loses. |
| Mr.Jingles 25.05.2009 06:30 |
Treasure Moment wrote:Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Then how can you possibly claim to be an atheist? You make no sense.I only say im atheist meaning i dont believe in man made gods of the organized religion, i know i should use another word instead. That doesn't make sense. Atheists completely deny the fact that there's a higher being who created the earth and the universe. That being said, it seems like you are more of an agnostic than an atheist. |
| thomasquinn 32989 25.05.2009 06:32 |
Treasure Moment wrote:Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Then how can you possibly claim to be an atheist? You make no sense.I only say im atheist meaning i dont believe in man made gods of the organized religion, i know i should use another word instead. You mean deism (if you believe in some kind of supernatural power creating the universe) or perhaps agnosticism (if you do not believe there *is* a god, but do not believe that there *isn't* a god either). |
| thomasquinn 32989 25.05.2009 06:36 |
Sir GH wrote:Treasure Moment wrote: fuck all religions, they are for retards who cant think logically.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism By default, Deism is correct. It assumes that a larger force created the universe, and did nothing else to interact with it after the fact. Many other lines of thought have more or less rendered deism obsolete, but I'm just trying to illustrate that there are religious ideas that can be formed and perpetuated through intellect. The Bahais are pretty intelligent folk too. Look them up as well, if you can pretend to be tolerant for a moment... I understand what you mean, but I think it is taking things a little too far to state that "by default, Deism is correct", as it does presuppose a creator. While it cannot be ruled out that there is/was a creator, it is not a necessity: the universe might be a fully physical phenomenon (though, as a Cartesian dualist, I do not consider this the most likely scenario). So while I agree that Deism has its merits, I would argue that the stance of Agnosticism (which accepts that there is no way to have knowledge of the existence or non-existence of any super-being) is closer to 'being correct', if there is such a thing (philosophy tends to accept that there is no one universe, but a unique universe for every subject [i.e. every being with a consciousness). |
| thomasquinn 32989 25.05.2009 06:39 |
YourValentine wrote: I think that racism comes from xenophobia which is very deeply rooted in human beings.It takes common sense and education to overcome racism. It is so much easier to just be scared of someone who looks different, speaks a different language and has other habits. I think Brandon is right saying that governments use xenophobia to manipulate the masses - for example into war and genocide. In Europe racism is not welcome by the ruling powers and therefore it is socially unacceptable while it was used by the Bush regime to gain public approval for their oil wars. However, each individual is equipped and able to overcome xenophobia and racism. We have to learn from history and try hard to be immune against attempts to offer us scapegoats and oversimplified explanations. When I read blogs on the internet on any given topic I am very pessimistic about the results of education and civilization, though. I agree. Education and interaction are probably the only cures for xenophobia. The problem is that there have always been, and probably will always be, people so evil that they are willing to use such base feelings for cheap political gain. Sadly, we seem to be in the midst of a period where this kind of action works (thank you, Neo-Cons), as opposed to e.g. the '90s, when racist politics failed to gain any support here in the Netherlands, at least. |
| Mr.Jingles 25.05.2009 10:00 |
ThomasQuinn wrote:Treasure Moment wrote:You mean deism (if you believe in some kind of supernatural power creating the universe) or perhaps agnosticism (if you do not believe there *is* a god, but do not believe that there *isn't* a god either).Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Then how can you possibly claim to be an atheist? You make no sense.I only say im atheist meaning i dont believe in man made gods of the organized religion, i know i should use another word instead. link |
| Treasure Moment 25.05.2009 10:20 |
Mr.Jingles wrote:ThomasQuinn wrote:[img=linkTreasure Moment wrote:You mean deism (if you believe in some kind of supernatural power creating the universe) or perhaps agnosticism (if you do not believe there *is* a god, but do not believe that there *isn't* a god either).Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Then how can you possibly claim to be an atheist? You make no sense.I only say im atheist meaning i dont believe in man made gods of the organized religion, i know i should use another word instead. Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods. |
| The Real Wizard 25.05.2009 12:10 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: I understand what you mean, but I think it is taking things a little too far to state that "by default, Deism is correct", as it does presuppose a creator. While it cannot be ruled out that there is/was a creator, it is not a necessity: the universe might be a fully physical phenomenon (though, as a Cartesian dualist, I do not consider this the most likely scenario). So while I agree that Deism has its merits, I would argue that the stance of Agnosticism (which accepts that there is no way to have knowledge of the existence or non-existence of any super-being) is closer to 'being correct', if there is such a thing (philosophy tends to accept that there is no one universe, but a unique universe for every subject [i.e. every being with a consciousness).Ahh, how I love an intelligent debate. >the universe might be a fully physical phenomenon But then there's always the question of what is ultimately propelling it... Treasure Moment wrote: Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods. That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen an (apparently educated) person say in my entire life. In that case, everyone is an atheist because not a single person believes in both the monotheistic God and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Put that double-digit IQ of yours to work and learn to quote posts properly. Some of yours take up half a page (in this case, it's currently almost the entire page). |
| Treasure Moment 25.05.2009 13:45 |
Sir GH wrote:ThomasQuinn wrote: I understand what you mean, but I think it is taking things a little too far to state that "by default, Deism is correct", as it does presuppose a creator. While it cannot be ruled out that there is/was a creator, it is not a necessity: the universe might be a fully physical phenomenon (though, as a Cartesian dualist, I do not consider this the most likely scenario). So while I agree that Deism has its merits, I would argue that the stance of Agnosticism (which accepts that there is no way to have knowledge of the existence or non-existence of any super-being) is closer to 'being correct', if there is such a thing (philosophy tends to accept that there is no one universe, but a unique universe for every subject [i.e. every being with a consciousness).Ahh, how I love an intelligent debate. >the universe might be a fully physical phenomenon But then there's always the question of what is ultimately propelling it...Treasure Moment wrote: Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods.That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen an (apparently educated) person say in my entire life. In that case, everyone is an atheist because not a single person believes in both the monotheistic God and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Put that double-digit IQ of yours to work and learn to quote posts properly. Some of yours take up half a page (in this case, it's currently almost the entire page). I said i used the word atheist out of laziness because i didnt bother to find out what the word for my beliefs were at the time. ALso IQ has nothing to do with real intelligence, its some bullshit test that has no real meaning. You can be intelligent in many different ways, not only the fucktarded version of that test wants you to be. |
| andreas_mercury 25.05.2009 13:59 |
laziness is something you know very well it seems to me ......... and greed. |
| Treasure Moment 25.05.2009 14:31 |
andreas_mercury wrote: laziness is something you know very well it seems to me ......... and greed. you are a funny clown pretending to be a former member :D |
| andreas_mercury 25.05.2009 14:43 |
you would like that wouldn't you?? but your secret is out my friend...... |
| Yara 25.05.2009 22:13 |
Treasure Moment wrote: Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods. Hi, Treasure Moment! (funny to call you this way. :op) How are you doing? Sorry for quoting you this way - it was too complicated for me to quote this sentence without bringing along all the other posts! You raise a very interesting point. I don't know whether you're aware of this, but this is exactly prominent biologist Richard Dawkins argument to demonstrate that, to some extent, almost all orthodox religious people are also atheists - not agnostic, but full-time atheists. The argument is interesting and it's exactly this one you posted: a religious person is always an atheist with regard to the gods of other religions, that is to say, this person is certain that the other divine beings which don't belong to his/her religion don't exist - they are fake, their "history" has been forged, so on and so forth. So Dawkins raises the question: why do you people jointly - muslims, jews, christians - attack me for being an atheist and not believing in a God when you yourselves are also atheists with regard to the gods of other religions? Religious Jews don't believe is either god or the messiah; Christians for sure don't believe in Allah; none of them believe in Zeus. I thought it marginally clever as a way to argue with people who attacked him for being an atheist - "how can you be an atheist..." - and he'd answer: Well, exactly the same you guys are. ;-)))) ----- I also wanted to congratulate you on the comment about the IQ tests. It's very sad what's done to people, and to their self-esteem, based on the culture of idolizing this test - I have already seen people's lives almost ruined because of this. So it was sensitive of you to point this out. ---- Anyway, although we disagree a lot - I'm on the very religious side :op -, I found your posts very interesting and it was nice to hear from you. I hope you're okay and doing fine. Cheers and best regards, Yara |
| thomasquinn 32989 26.05.2009 09:40 |
Believe me Yara, TM does not understand one bit of the subtlety of your argument (or Dawkins', who, I might add, is a fundamentalist in his own right). His reasoning on the subject is something like this: - I do not like what the church says* - The church believes in god - God doesn't exist - Psychoactive substances will get you into contact with this non-existent God anyway * 'the church' being every religious institution of any denomination, and he doesn't like it because he's seen a few YouTube videos telling him that the church is lying. About what, he's not so sure. |
| Treasure Moment 26.05.2009 10:08 |
Yara wrote: Treasure Moment wrote: Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods. Hi, Treasure Moment! (funny to call you this way. :op) How are you doing? Sorry for quoting you this way - it was too complicated for me to quote this sentence without bringing along all the other posts! You raise a very interesting point. I don't know whether you're aware of this, but this is exactly prominent biologist Richard Dawkins argument to demonstrate that, to some extent, almost all orthodox religious people are also atheists - not agnostic, but full-time atheists. The argument is interesting and it's exactly this one you posted: a religious person is always an atheist with regard to the gods of other religions, that is to say, this person is certain that the other divine beings which don't belong to his/her religion don't exist - they are fake, their "history" has been forged, so on and so forth. So Dawkins raises the question: why do you people jointly - muslims, jews, christians - attack me for being an atheist and not believing in a God when you yourselves are also atheists with regard to the gods of other religions? Religious Jews don't believe is either god or the messiah; Christians for sure don't believe in Allah; none of them believe in Zeus. I thought it marginally clever as a way to argue with people who attacked him for being an atheist - "how can you be an atheist..." - and he'd answer: Well, exactly the same you guys are. ;-)))) ----- I also wanted to congratulate you on the comment about the IQ tests. It's very sad what's done to people, and to their self-esteem, based on the culture of idolizing this test - I have already seen people's lives almost ruined because of this. So it was sensitive of you to point this out. ---- Anyway, although we disagree a lot - I'm on the very religious side :op -, I found your posts very interesting and it was nice to hear from you. I hope you're okay and doing fine. Cheers and best regards, Yara Thanks for your reply Yara, you seem to be an intelligent person contrary to many people here. I know about dawkins and you are correct, people of different religions see their god as the real one and are atheists against all other gods and as dawkins says many of those people are raised up as christians, muslims etc just because their parents are that or its the dominant religion of that area, i call those people sheep. What i dont like about dawkins is that he says there can be no god, there is no way he can know that and although i dont believe in any man made "holy books" and organized religion i do believe there are things much higher than us that we have no clue about. About the iq test, thats not a way to tell if someone is smart or not, its just about 1 form of intelligence, solving puzzles for the most part as i remember that test. There are other forms of intelligence and just cause someone is not good at this particular test doesnt mean they are dumb, they can be better at something else which the person who gets a top score on iq test isnt. take care |
| Treasure Moment 26.05.2009 10:11 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: Believe me Yara, TM does not understand one bit of the subtlety of your argument (or Dawkins', who, I might add, is a fundamentalist in his own right). His reasoning on the subject is something like this: - I do not like what the church says* - The church believes in god - God doesn't exist - Psychoactive substances will get you into contact with this non-existent God anyway * 'the church' being every religious institution of any denomination, and he doesn't like it because he's seen a few YouTube videos telling him that the church is lying. About what, he's not so sure. No, my reasoning is that the organized religions are man made and are lies, the books are written by MAN and its used to manipulate and separate people and control them, simple as that and the sheep buy into it. |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 26.05.2009 10:19 |
Treasure Moment wrote: Thanks for your reply Yara, you seem to be an intelligent person contrary to many people here. I know about dawkins and you are correct, people of different religions see their god as the real one and are atheists against all other gods and as dawkins says many of those people are raised up as christians, muslims etc just because their parents are that or its the dominant religion of that area, i like those people sheep. What i dont like abour dawkins is that he says there can be no god, there is no way he can know that and although i dont believe in any man made "holy books" and organized religion i do believe there are things much higher than us that we have no clue about. About the iq test, thats not a way to tell if someone is smart or not, its just about 1 form of intelligence, solving puzzles for the most part as i remember that test. There are other forms of intelligence and just cause someone is not good at this particular test doesnt mean they are dumb, they can be better at something else which the person who gets a top score on iq test isnt. take care But... aren't all Gods manmade to an extent? How can you possibly term what's a manmade God and what isn't? Just because you've decided what you think God is doesn't necessarily make it true. You've moulded a God in your head, making it just as man made as any other God. I myself would class myself as agnostic, maybe even athiest, but I would never ever criticise someone else for believing in what they believe in. Seriously, if they have the faith to believe in something that they cannot be proven, then well done them! I wish I had their faith, but I don't. And I agree with you about the IQ thing. I have a high IQ, but it means nothing more than the fact that I am good at answering the questions they ask in an IQ test. I can answer IQ style questions, therefore I have a high IQ. Hurrah? If my IQ is a measure of intelligence, then I am in the top 10% in England. I somehow think not. In fact, I really hope not because I really am quite stupid. It is therefore bollocks. |
| Treasure Moment 26.05.2009 10:26 |
Freya is quietly judging you. wrote:Treasure Moment wrote: Thanks for your reply Yara, you seem to be an intelligent person contrary to many people here. I know about dawkins and you are correct, people of different religions see their god as the real one and are atheists against all other gods and as dawkins says many of those people are raised up as christians, muslims etc just because their parents are that or its the dominant religion of that area, i like those people sheep. What i dont like abour dawkins is that he says there can be no god, there is no way he can know that and although i dont believe in any man made "holy books" and organized religion i do believe there are things much higher than us that we have no clue about. About the iq test, thats not a way to tell if someone is smart or not, its just about 1 form of intelligence, solving puzzles for the most part as i remember that test. There are other forms of intelligence and just cause someone is not good at this particular test doesnt mean they are dumb, they can be better at something else which the person who gets a top score on iq test isnt. take careBut... aren't all Gods manmade to an extent? How can you possibly term what's a manmade God and what isn't? Just because you've decided what you think God is doesn't necessarily make it true. You've moulded a God in your head, making it just as man made as any other God. I myself would class myself as agnostic, maybe even athiest, but I would never ever criticise someone else for believing in what they believe in. Seriously, if they have the faith to believe in something that they cannot be proven, then well done them! I wish I had their faith, but I don't. And I agree with you about the IQ thing. I have a high IQ, but it means nothing more than the fact that I am good at answering the questions they ask in an IQ test. I can answer IQ style questions, therefore I have a high IQ. Hurrah? If my IQ is anything to go by I am in the top 10% in the country. I somehow think not. It's mostly bollocks. The difference between what i believe and what they believe is that i just believe something higher than us exists but i dont believe in "holy books, rules" or "sins" etc that that god has communicated with people and given guidance to them, thats the difference. |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 26.05.2009 10:37 |
Fair point. But perhaps some people need more guidance than others. Some people feel safe in the knowledge that there is a heaven where good people go for eternity and that there is a God looking out for them and answering their prayers and all that jazz, I don't think that makes them stupid. Because at the end of the day, with most of them, all they are trying to be is good people. Yes, I'm sure most of the bible is made up and there is some utter utter bollocks in it, and it's all about scaring people into being "good people" so they don't go to scary old hell, but at it's core it's not meant to be a fear mongering book, it was meant to teach good, and you certainly don't have have to be stupid to follow it. Obviously there are religious extremists and idiots who take every word of their holy book seriously, those people are stupid, but your average religion following person isn't like that. Yes, you could argue that they need their eyes opened, but why? They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone. |
| Treasure Moment 26.05.2009 10:46 |
Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Fair point. But perhaps some people need more guidance than others. Some people feel safe in the knowledge that there is a heaven where good people go for eternity and that there is a God looking out for them and answering their prayers and all that jazz, I don't think that makes them stupid. Because at the end of the day, with most of them, all they are trying to be is good people. Yes, I'm sure most of the bible is made up and there is some utter utter bollocks in it, and it's all about scaring people into being "good people" so they don't go to scary old hell, but at it's core it's not meant to be a fear mongering book, it was meant to teach good, and you certainly don't have have to be stupid to follow it. Obviously there are religious extremists and idiots who take every word of their holy book seriously, those people are stupid, but your average religion following person isn't like that. Yes, you could argue that they need their eyes opened, but why? They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone. I know it gives them hope and thats "good" but what it really is is false hope as its man made lies, people just dont want to face the truth. Religion separates, traps, starts wars, controls people so it has a lot more negatives than good sides to it. |
| andreas_mercury 26.05.2009 11:41 |
you just have a chip on the shoulder because "religion" is what stopped your justice of the peace from marrying you and your Milidrag ....... i know, i was there. |
| thomasquinn 32989 26.05.2009 12:00 |
Treasure Moment wrote:Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: Fair point. But perhaps some people need more guidance than others. Some people feel safe in the knowledge that there is a heaven where good people go for eternity and that there is a God looking out for them and answering their prayers and all that jazz, I don't think that makes them stupid. Because at the end of the day, with most of them, all they are trying to be is good people. Yes, I'm sure most of the bible is made up and there is some utter utter bollocks in it, and it's all about scaring people into being "good people" so they don't go to scary old hell, but at it's core it's not meant to be a fear mongering book, it was meant to teach good, and you certainly don't have have to be stupid to follow it. Obviously there are religious extremists and idiots who take every word of their holy book seriously, those people are stupid, but your average religion following person isn't like that. Yes, you could argue that they need their eyes opened, but why? They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone.I know it gives them hope and thats "good" but what it really is is false hope as its man made lies, people just dont want to face the truth. Religion separates, traps, starts wars, controls people so it has a lot more negatives than good sides to it. The point is that it is not religious BOOKS that are to blame, but religious LEADERS. The Old Testament, for instance, is a highly interesting philosophical book, and very intelligent at that (it is so intricately constructed that the individual [tripartite] meaning of every single *letter* is important. Which is also the reason that it is impossible to read it well in anything other than the original Hebrew)....so long as you do not consider it infallible or the Word of God. But you dismiss it as "stupid", probably without having read any of it. Incidentally, returning to the "all religions are to a degree atheists" argument: it's not true. Neither Judaism, nor Christianity nor Islam say that their God (which is the same one, as they too recognize) is the ONLY God. They only say that he is the TRUE God (i.e. all others are lesser gods). |
| -fatty- 2850 26.05.2009 12:21 |
I agree with Treasure Moment in as much as I dont believe in God but I think there are higher forms of life than him. Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few. fatty. |
| Holly2003 26.05.2009 12:59 |
-fatty- wrote: Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few. Add some Irn Bru and that's a typical Scottish restaurant menu. |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 26.05.2009 14:44 |
andreas_mercury wrote: you just have a chip on the shoulder because "religion" is what stopped your justice of the peace from marrying you and your Milidrag ....... i know, i was there. i was getting bored with this topic but i have to ask now.. what is a Milidrag? is it a cross dressing British member of parliament? or the transvestite cousin of the bloke who sang 'the joker' and 'abracadabra'? i darent look on the interweb just in case i end up on Jakes ex's blog page or somewhere nearly as vile.. |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 26.05.2009 19:21 |
Holly2003 wrote:-fatty- wrote: Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few.Add some Irn Bru and that's a typical Scottish restaurant menu. didnt i see on the news that they want irn bru banned? |
| FriedChicken 27.05.2009 02:34 |
. I myself would class myself as agnostic, maybe even athiest, but I would never ever criticise someone else for believing in what they believe in. Seriously, if they have the faith to believe in something that they cannot be proven, then well done them! I wish I had their faith, but I don't. I really can't see why believing something rediculous, even to the extend of being blind to all the evidence that contradicts your believes, is something good, and something to have respect for. And why would you wish you had their faith? If I believed in a god, especially that horrible judeo/christian/islamic god, i'd be scared to death the whole damn day. |
| Holly2003 27.05.2009 04:20 |
JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote:Holly2003 wrote:didnt i see on the news that they want irn bru banned?-fatty- wrote: Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few.Add some Irn Bru and that's a typical Scottish restaurant menu. I think they want Scotland banned. Too Scottish, or something. |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 27.05.2009 04:59 |
Holly2003 wrote:thank god they got deep fried mars bars or they'd all be anorexic and Fatty would disappear if he turned sideways :-]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote:I think they want Scotland banned. Too Scottish, or something.Holly2003 wrote:didnt i see on the news that they want irn bru banned?-fatty- wrote: Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few.Add some Irn Bru and that's a typical Scottish restaurant menu. |
| ParisNair 01.06.2009 06:09 |
Anti-immigrant/ racist discrimination is a hot topic in India the last couple of days owing to the attacks on Indian students in Australia over last month. * In one attack, two Indian students were each hit on the head with a bat at Tottenham station in March. The youths who attacked them taunted them racially. * Two people gatecrashed a party and started thrashing the students. 4 students, all Indian , were singled out for the assault.One of the four was attacked with a screwdriver, which pierced his head. * In a separate incident in Melbourne earlier this month, another Indian student was thrashed on a train by a group of men. All this and more in a short interval of 1-2 weeks, and all in Melbourne if I'm not mistaken. The Authorities (Australian as well as Indian) are terming these as being possibly revenge attackes, robbery attempts, etc. However all the victims have mentioned that they were racially abused during the attacks.I also find it strange that robbers would attack students, who work part time, to pay for their studies. And the video clip of the train attack leaves no doubt that it is was anything other than a racist attack. The indian papers and TV news channels have been covering the attacks in great detail.They also noted that the Aussie media has downplayed it as a non-issue. I'm interested to know if it was given coverage in any other country? Especially those with a sizeable immigrant/ Inidan population like the UK? |
| john bodega 01.06.2009 06:23 |
I don't want a lot of telly, I didn't even realise there was anti-Indian stuff going down in my own country... fuck! Having said that, it's remarkable how some forms of racism are more tolerated than others. One treads very carefully around the topic of our indigenous Australians, for instance, but Indians on the other hand ... you can't go five minutes here without them being lampooned on some level. (A lot of it owing to those guys who ring up offering sensation mobile phone deals). I dunno. If it were just casual jibes about racial stereotypes I'd just laugh it off but when it turns to physical violence against people who probably contribute more to the nation than those people who are perpetrating the violence .... that's when I get pissy. |
| Micrówave 02.06.2009 12:50 |
from CNN:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Shortly before President Obama departs for a trip to the Middle East, a new national poll suggests that one in five Americans has a favorable view of Muslim countries. That view compares with 46 percent of the people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey who say they have an unfavorable opinion of Muslim countries. That's up 5 percentage points from 2002, when 41 percent indicated that they had an unfavorable view. Meanwhile, three in 10 say they have a neutral opinion of Muslim countries. The poll also suggests that most Americans suspect people in Muslim countries don't think highly of the United States. Nearly eight in 10 questioned say people in Muslim countries have a unfavorable opinion of the United States, with 14 percent saying Muslims hold a favorable view. But the poll indicates Americans seem to be split on whether such negative opinions by Muslims matter. Fifty-three percent of those questioned say they think Muslim views of the United States matter greatly or moderately, with 47 percent saying that Muslim opinions of the United States don't matter very much or at all. At a town hall in Turkey earlier this year, the president declared that "the United States is not, and will never be, at war with Islam." Many Americans seem to agree with the president: Sixty-two percent of those surveyed say they don't think the United States is at war with the Muslim world, with 36 percent indicating that the country is at war with Muslim countries. Those numbers have remained stable since CNN's 2002 poll. But the poll suggests that six out of 10 think that the Muslim world considers itself at war with the United States. "The feeling seems to be mutual. We distrust Muslims. They distrust Americans. Views of Americans have not changed very much over the past seven years. There are some indications that Muslims' views of Americans have improved a bit since Barack Obama took office, but they are still not positive," said Bill Schneider, CNN senior political analyst. The CNN/Opinion Research poll was conducted May 14-17, with 1,010 adult Americans questioned by telephone. The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points. |
| ParisNair 03.06.2009 07:29 |
In the ninth such attack on Indians in the last one month, a nursing student at Chisholm Institute in Dandenong in Melbourne's east was slashed with box-cutter knife by one of the five men who confronted him in a car park on Tuesday. |
| Yara 04.06.2009 00:09 |
ParisNair wrote: In the ninth such attack on Indians in the last one month, a nursing student at Chisholm Institute in Dandenong in Melbourne's east was slashed with box-cutter knife by one of the five men who confronted him in a car park on Tuesday. Hi, ParisNair! I hope you're doing fine. This is sad news. Nine of such attacks in one months is really horrible. What do you think has been the motivation for all this? Has the attacker been arrested? That's sad. Violence is sad and render things meaningless. :-( Take care! Yara |
| ParisNair 06.06.2009 14:54 |
Yara wrote: Hi, ParisNair! I hope you're doing fine. This is sad news. Nine of such attacks in one months is really horrible. What do you think has been the motivation for all this? Has the attacker been arrested? That's sad. Violence is sad and render things meaningless. :-( Take care! YaraHello Yara! I'm doing great, and I hope you're even better :-) Incidentally, the papers yesterday reported of a tenth attack- this time by a group consisting of females as well-on an Indian this month on an Indian in Melbourne. Motivation for all this? I now think the attackers are mainly thugs out to steal money from unarmed and helpless foreigners. These are probably regular incidents out there, and came to the attention of India journalists only now. Think about it - 10 racist attacks in a month does sound outrageous. But 10 burglary attempts in a month in big city like Melbourne? not such a big deal I think. It is more likely that these guys have anti-foreigner or anti-Indian sentiments too, even if money is the main motivation. An ex-colleague of mine studied hotel Management in Australia and also had the privilege to visit many countries in Europe and he is currently in the US. He did tell me once that he sensed "racism was in the air" more in Autralia compared to Europe/N.America. In the big cities of those countries, it hardly made a difference that his skin was brown. But in even in the biggest cities of Australia, he felt people made him feel unwanted. |
