| Raf 28.12.2008 09:14 |
link Here we go... Again. |
| Saif 28.12.2008 10:48 |
Get ready for the third intifada... |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 29.12.2008 04:54 |
poor Gaza,he's really had it tough this year :-p oh,you mean the area where 'we bomb you in the name of peace' and no one will do anything coz the US is watching our backs. what really gets my tits with this is that Israel play the ol' 'persecuted' card whenever it feels like it and then at the same time is just as bloody guilty of causing atrocities in Palestine.Give it a week or two and they will be bleating about Palestinians strapping dynamite behind their genitals and walking into market places and blowing themselves up in retaliation,it always bloody happens and dont even get me started with that Condescending Rice womans little speech yesterday about telling Israel to aim 'little more to the left' so as not to hit civilians.too late woman they've already killed 274! i swear she has been sitting next to Baby Bush for too long! the rest of the world [including all the political parties here in the UK] have quite rightly condemned the actions of Israel but we know they wont listen. ps,there was a big demo in London [outside the Israeli embassy] against the bombings of Gaza yesterday and the Israelis had a cheek to get the police to move them all as they were 'causing a disturbance'.i swear this bloody world gets more crazier by the day.. |
| john bodega 29.12.2008 10:16 |
Israel is the 51st US state. Watch, as they get away with firing missiles under the influence of blindfolds. I'm glad no one takes my posts seriously or I'd be getting flamed after this. |
| thomasquinn 32989 29.12.2008 11:23 |
I'm with you. I have nothing against Jews or the state of Israel, but I do sure object to the bunch of motherfuckers running the place. As for Hamas, they're definitely scum, and nothing more, which means that both the Israeli and Palestinian people are stuck with bellicose morons for leaders, who are themselves too cowardly to take a step out of the door without an elite regiment of Rangers to watch their backs, but see no problem in bravely risking and sacrificing *other people's* lives. As usual, it's the innocent that are stuck between both fires, while a small minority (the Colonists and their supporters in Israel, the militarists in both Hamas and Fatah) works very hard to make life as difficult as possible. And sadly, most people will believe the propaganda messages 'their' side gives. I'm for sending a UN peacekeeping force to the Middle East, from countries neutral to both Israel and the Palestinians, so preferably countries where Judaism, Christianity and Islam play a very limited role (Ghana, Japan and Vietnam come to mind). |
| Micrówave 29.12.2008 12:03 |
On Christmas Eve, Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday -- four days after a cease-fire officially ended.. I'm sure those rockets had jingly bells and red felt and brought joy to the boys and girls of southern Israel. How dare Israel attack the spots from where they were fired!!! |
| john bodega 29.12.2008 12:53 |
Micrówave wrote: On Christmas Eve, Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday -- four days after a cease-fire officially ended.. I'm surprised it took 4 days! |
| AspiringPhilosophe 29.12.2008 17:14 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Israel is the 51st US state. Watch, as they get away with firing missiles under the influence of blindfolds. I'm glad no one takes my posts seriously or I'd be getting flamed after this. Nope...the 51st state is either Canada or the UK, depending on who you ask. *laughs* As for this...what is there to say? Israeli's are just as guilty as the terrorists they are going after, but they play the "feel bad for us! We were nearly destroyed!" card every single damn thing. I'd like to think the guilt trip thing will only work for so long, but it's worked for the Jews for centuries...and that was before Hitler and the establishment of the state of Israel. I'd love the US government to step away from Israel and tell them they are on their own, but it will never happen. |
| john bodega 30.12.2008 00:35 |
A guy on a lecture tour through Australia about six years ago was on the radio trying to convince Australians that we should become a US state. His biggest selling point? We'd get to take part in NFL and Baseball. *shrug* I'd rather shoot myself. |
| JoxerTheDeityPirate 30.12.2008 05:05 |
curious to see whether Israel will pay any attention to what the rest of the world is saying though. even the new UN bloke who used to be a UK grafitti artist ,Banksy Moon,is coming down hard on them. |
| thomasquinn 32989 30.12.2008 06:23 |
Micrówave wrote: On Christmas Eve, Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday -- four days after a cease-fire officially ended.. I'm sure those rockets had jingly bells and red felt and brought joy to the boys and girls of southern Israel. How dare Israel attack the spots from where they were fired!!! Yes, after cutting off all funds, medical supplies, food, gas and electricity for months, it is so totally justified for Israel to kill well over 300 people, most of whom are innocent civilians, after no less than FOUR Israelis were killed in rocket strikes. Christ, you are one fucked up piece of shit. |
| Raf 30.12.2008 07:11 |
The missiles incident was certainly unacceptable, no country should allow such a thing... But, as usual, Israel has overreacted. Bombing the whole place will only kill civilians, give Hamas yet another excuse to send more missiles, pick up fights with other terrorist groups (Hezbollah, for example...) and make Israel even more impopular. |
| thomasquinn 32989 30.12.2008 07:14 |
The problem is that the people in charge of both sides are militarists, who want nothing more than a fight. Just like many Hamas-cronies are aching for an intifada, scores of Colonists can't wait to abuse, maim and kill as many Palestinians as they can get to. I just hope the camcorders handed out to Palestinians are still being used... |
| Micrówave 30.12.2008 12:10 |
ThomasQuinn wrote:Micrówave wrote: On Christmas Eve, Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday -- four days after a cease-fire officially ended.. I'm sure those rockets had jingly bells and red felt and brought joy to the boys and girls of southern Israel. How dare Israel attack the spots from where they were fired!!!Yes, after cutting off all funds, medical supplies, food, gas and electricity for months, it is so totally justified for Israel to kill well over 300 people, most of whom are innocent civilians, after no less than FOUR Israelis were killed in rocket strikes. Christ, you are one fucked up piece of shit. YOUCH! Sorry, Thomas Hamas Quinn, didn't know you took ONE SIDE so personally!!! Sometimes, you really are an ignorant a-hole, but it's cool. I'm now with TQ. Let's kill all the Israelis. (for cutting off all funds) How dare they cut off funds from Hamas. Hamas needs funds, like TQ implies. There are operations that they need to carry out that require rocket propelled grenades. But they would never hurt innocent civilians. Who's the fucked up piece of shit? Wake up, dutch boy. Both sides are killing each other. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 30.12.2008 12:38 |
Micrówave wrote: Both sides are killing each other. And will continue to do so until some wisdom is applied. This tit-for-tat crap has gone on for decades and yet the situation remains volatile. I would never give Hamas right in this but if Israel is the 'civilized' society here, their prime minister shouldn't be calling this a "battle to the end". Their predictable caveman-like response does not come close to solving the problems but rather raises tensions in the region even more. Instead of a constant escalation of violence, isn't it time they show some escalated intelligence? Surely there has to be someone in the Israeli government who is looking for a solution, not revenge or one-upmanship. |
| SomebodyWhoLoves 30.12.2008 18:03 |
The situation is hopeless and sad. There are no winners here. Everyone is a LOSER with a capital L. |
| My Melancholy Blues 30.12.2008 21:25 |
I like many kinds of world music, especially the one of the middle east. For example, sometimes I listen to an Iranian female singer and some other day a Lebanese femal singer, etc. etc.... My interest in such music jenre has led me to more interest in the histories and the situations of nowadays of those areas. And I'm also a fan of Ofra Haza who was a popular Israeli singer and died of AIDS in 2000. She was Yemenite-Jewish and in her earlier career she appealed to people by the songs inspired by Yemenite tradition. Her love and interest of it somehow bridged the divide between Israel and the Arab countries. After she succeeded worldwide, she sang many impressing songs apealing for the peace of the world. Of all her songs, particularly I was so impressed by the one titled "The Middle East" referring to the conflict between Israel and Palestina. Everytime I listen to the song I feel so sad to realize that the things haven't changed for the better since the days when she sang it. The Middle East In my Promised Land In the Middle East What will we do about terrorism? In my Promised Land In the Middle East What can we do about fanaticism? You and I on parallel lines You and I, we are the key Dreams are not enough To lead and guide us To peace In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... Desire for peace Such yearning for peace Does your country do What you believe in? In my Land there is war And we're losing our soul And ideology Is losing meaning You and I on parallel lines You and I, when can we meet? Dreams are not enough To lead and guide us To peace In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... SHOLEM SHOLEM WEEN SHOLEM SHOLEM SHOLEM WEN ESSALAM SHOLEM SHOLEM WEEN SHOLEM SALAM You and I on parallel lines You and I, we are the key Dreams are not enough To lead and guide us To peace In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... WEN ESSALAM? Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Flare lights, flowers, mothers, fathers, Homeland, green fields and tears Borders, rivers, desert, Dead Sea We are the key Flare lights, flowers, mothers, fathers, Homeland, green fields and tears Borders, rivers, desert, Dead Sea When can we meet? YERUSHALAYM YERUSHALEM Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East |
| AspiringPhilosophe 30.12.2008 23:06 |
I sometimes wonder how much the Cult of Victimhood plays into the problems in the Middle East. Here is what I mean: Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through. But in the eviction of the Palestinians from their land and the staunch refusal to let them have a state of their own, we give the Palestinians a feeling of being oppressed. Israel cuts off their money, restricts travel, shuts down electricity and water supplies when it feels like it, and every once in a while decides that no one is going to leave the borders of their area, even to go to work. Not to mention, every once in a while the Israeli army decides to move into their neighborhood, evict everyone by force and thereby expand the size of the Israeli state. Add to that the terrorist actions of Israel (who respond to 4 missles fired by militants by trying to blow the Gaza Strip to smithereens) and the fact the most of the world looks away at what Israel does to them, and voila! The Palestinians are now victims, as well. So now what do we have? Two people fighting each other. Both of them see themselves as being Victims; Victims of the other, and Victims of the world at large. Therefore, their anger and any actions they commit are justified in their own head as the righteous acts of Victims against Oppressors. Is it possible to inject reason into this situation and defuse the anger when both sides are almost genetically convinced that they are Victims? |
| thomasquinn 32989 31.12.2008 04:37 |
Micrówave wrote:ThomasQuinn wrote:YOUCH! Sorry, Thomas Hamas Quinn, didn't know you took ONE SIDE so personally!!! Sometimes, you really are an ignorant a-hole, but it's cool. I'm now with TQ. Let's kill all the Israelis. (for cutting off all funds) How dare they cut off funds from Hamas. Hamas needs funds, like TQ implies. There are operations that they need to carry out that require rocket propelled grenades. But they would never hurt innocent civilians. Who's the fucked up piece of shit? Wake up, dutch boy. Both sides are killing each other.Micrówave wrote: On Christmas Eve, Hamas militants fired more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday -- four days after a cease-fire officially ended.. I'm sure those rockets had jingly bells and red felt and brought joy to the boys and girls of southern Israel. How dare Israel attack the spots from where they were fired!!!Yes, after cutting off all funds, medical supplies, food, gas and electricity for months, it is so totally justified for Israel to kill well over 300 people, most of whom are innocent civilians, after no less than FOUR Israelis were killed in rocket strikes. Christ, you are one fucked up piece of shit. Wow, are you too stupid to even *read* now? If you'd have bothered to read my posts, instead of going straight for your fanatical I-support-the-America-Israeli-Cooperative-Enterprise speech, you'd have read that I condemn both Hamas AND militant Israelis for being terrorists. The difference being that Israel now rejects *any* attempts at mediation, and still pretends to be a legal, constitutional and liberal state. They're obviously not, under present leadership. What I said about Hamas still stands: religious fanatics (like the colonists, by the way), who are not the least bit sensible but who are, probably for the worse, but still, the LEGAL GOVERNMENT. Now, if you think Israel is justified in murdering the population of Gaza, as you obviously are, I suggest we hang you, as the theory needed to justify that would put you in strict accordance, excluding anti-Semitism, with the defending parties in the Nurenberg trials. The interesting part in your post is that you fail to read my criticism of Palestinian leadership, then call me a Hamas-supporter (and if you'd have done that in real life, ignorant little fuck, I wouldn't hesitate before suing you for defamation), and go on to give a *propaganda speech* which is so one-sided that the word "absolute" is insufficient to denote your allegiance to the criminals in charge of the Israeli government today. Do you honestly think I'd be calling for a UN peacekeeping force if I were a Hamas-fan? Are you truly that stupid? |
| thomasquinn 32989 31.12.2008 04:52 |
AspiringPhilosophe wrote: I sometimes wonder how much the Cult of Victimhood plays into the problems in the Middle East. Here is what I mean: Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through. But in the eviction of the Palestinians from their land and the staunch refusal to let them have a state of their own, we give the Palestinians a feeling of being oppressed. Israel cuts off their money, restricts travel, shuts down electricity and water supplies when it feels like it, and every once in a while decides that no one is going to leave the borders of their area, even to go to work. Not to mention, every once in a while the Israeli army decides to move into their neighborhood, evict everyone by force and thereby expand the size of the Israeli state. Add to that the terrorist actions of Israel (who respond to 4 missles fired by militants by trying to blow the Gaza Strip to smithereens) and the fact the most of the world looks away at what Israel does to them, and voila! The Palestinians are now victims, as well. So now what do we have? Two people fighting each other. Both of them see themselves as being Victims; Victims of the other, and Victims of the world at large. Therefore, their anger and any actions they commit are justified in their own head as the righteous acts of Victims against Oppressors. Is it possible to inject reason into this situation and defuse the anger when both sides are almost genetically convinced that they are Victims? Isrealis =/= Jews Many, if not most, Jews throughout the world do not support Israel's policy; orthodox Jews even consider the state of Israel sacrilegious (according to the Old Testament, the Jews would return to Israel *after* the Messiah's arrival). |
| AspiringPhilosophe 31.12.2008 09:23 |
ThomasQuinn wrote:AspiringPhilosophe wrote: I sometimes wonder how much the Cult of Victimhood plays into the problems in the Middle East. Here is what I mean: Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through. But in the eviction of the Palestinians from their land and the staunch refusal to let them have a state of their own, we give the Palestinians a feeling of being oppressed. Israel cuts off their money, restricts travel, shuts down electricity and water supplies when it feels like it, and every once in a while decides that no one is going to leave the borders of their area, even to go to work. Not to mention, every once in a while the Israeli army decides to move into their neighborhood, evict everyone by force and thereby expand the size of the Israeli state. Add to that the terrorist actions of Israel (who respond to 4 missles fired by militants by trying to blow the Gaza Strip to smithereens) and the fact the most of the world looks away at what Israel does to them, and voila! The Palestinians are now victims, as well. So now what do we have? Two people fighting each other. Both of them see themselves as being Victims; Victims of the other, and Victims of the world at large. Therefore, their anger and any actions they commit are justified in their own head as the righteous acts of Victims against Oppressors. Is it possible to inject reason into this situation and defuse the anger when both sides are almost genetically convinced that they are Victims?Isrealis =/= Jews Many, if not most, Jews throughout the world do not support Israel's policy; orthodox Jews even consider the state of Israel sacrilegious (according to the Old Testament, the Jews would return to Israel *after* the Messiah's arrival). Indeed, but those in control of policy in Israel are Jews. Other ethnic/religious groups are a minority there, and if I understand it correctly, they are discriminated against by the larger society. That is what I meant when I said "Jews" |
| Lady Nyx 31.12.2008 11:05 |
My Melancholy Blues wrote: I like many kinds of world music, especially the one of the middle east. For example, sometimes I listen to an Iranian female singer and some other day a Lebanese femal singer, etc. etc.... My interest in such music jenre has led me to more interest in the histories and the situations of nowadays of those areas. And I'm also a fan of Ofra Haza who was a popular Israeli singer and died of AIDS in 2000. She was Yemenite-Jewish and in her earlier career she appealed to people by the songs inspired by Yemenite tradition. Her love and interest of it somehow bridged the divide between Israel and the Arab countries. After she succeeded worldwide, she sang many impressing songs apealing for the peace of the world. Of all her songs, particularly I was so impressed by the one titled "The Middle East" referring to the conflict between Israel and Palestina. Everytime I listen to the song I was so sad to realize that the things haven't changed for the better since the days when she sang it. The Middle East In my Promised Land In the Middle East What will we do about terrorism? In my Promised Land In the Middle East What can we do about fanaticism? You and I on parallel lines You and I, we are the key Dreams are not enough To lead and guide us To peace In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... Desire for peace Such yearning for peace Does your country do What you believe in? In my Land there is war And we're losing our soul And ideology Is losing meaning You and I on parallel lines You and I, when can we meet? Dreams are not enough To lead and guide us To peace In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... SHOLEM SHOLEM WEEN SHOLEM SHOLEM SHOLEM WEN ESSALAM SHOLEM SHOLEM WEEN SHOLEM SALAM You and I on parallel lines You and I, we are the key Dreams are not enough To lead and guide us To peace In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... WEN ESSALAM? Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Flare lights, flowers, mothers, fathers, Homeland, green fields and tears Borders, rivers, desert, Dead Sea We are the key Flare lights, flowers, mothers, fathers, Homeland, green fields and tears Borders, rivers, desert, Dead Sea When can we meet? YERUSHALAYM YERUSHALEM Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East Oh, oh, oh... In the Middle East im glad im not the only one who knows who she is :D she had a beautiful voice. |
| Micrówave 31.12.2008 12:24 |
Thomas Idiot Quinn wrote |
| Donna13 31.12.2008 14:47 |
Sorry, all Queenzone fights are closed for the remainder of the year. That includes any usage of the "f" word in a non-happy way, remarks involving female body parts, bodily fluids or waste material, and/or intelligence levels. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 31.12.2008 15:09 |
Donna13 wrote: Sorry, all Queenzone fights are closed for the remainder of the year. That includes any usage of the "f" word in a non-happy way, remarks involving female body parts, bodily fluids or waste material, and/or intelligence levels. Ah man. That's it then. There will be no more posts on Queenzone this year. [img=/images/smiley/msn/confused_smile.gif][/img] |
| thomasquinn 32989 01.01.2009 14:19 |
"Thomas Idiot Quinn" was Microwaves response. The only thing I can say in response to that is "third grader". How do you like that, folks? A third-grade nazi. |
| April 01.01.2009 16:32 |
The situation is impossible to resolve. Best minds and politicians have tried to settle the conflict, but in vain. I think it won't be resolved in this generation. We need a new generation of politicians and leaders, we have to wait for young intelligent people to grow up, who will have a different mind-set and a new approach to solving problems and be less fundamentalist, less religious maybe. Nothing will be done in the next 30 years or so. |
| thomasquinn 32989 02.01.2009 06:27 |
The younger generation is growing up with the violence, and is growing even more bitter than the old one. It is obvious now that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have the capability or the decency to deal with this issue; as far as I'm concerned, it is now a UN matter - send a peacekeeping force, and keep it there. Then, if any side steps out of line (yes *any* side) action can be taken BY THE UN. Conservative Americans and Israelis as well as fanatical Palestinians are terrified by this notion, as it'd rob of their main source of power (violence and the threat thereof), but that to me is even more of a reason to implement it. |
| Micrówave 03.01.2009 15:29 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: "Thomas Idiot Quinn" was Microwaves response. The only thing I can say in response to that is "third grader". How do you like that, folks? A third-grade nazi. And you have dialogue with said third grade nazi. (Don't you live closer) So I'm a nazi because I don't condemn the Israeli attacks, eh? What are you, performing? Who are these "folks"? Are these your fans that follow your stand up act, because you might wanna realize that there aren't any. |
| Guy 03.01.2009 15:49 |
ThomasQuinn, your idea to send a UN peacekeeping force shows you have no idea how absolutely usesless these forces are. See the role of the peacekeeping force in the Srebrenica massacre. Also, many Israelis feel the UN is prejudiced regarding the conflict, so it will never work. |
| thomasquinn 32989 04.01.2009 07:46 |
Guy wrote: ThomasQuinn, your idea to send a UN peacekeeping force shows you have no idea how absolutely usesless these forces are. See the role of the peacekeeping force in the Srebrenica massacre. Also, many Israelis feel the UN is prejudiced regarding the conflict, so it will never work. The Srebrenica massacre was largely caused by two things: a refusal to lend air support by the American commander, and the sheer cowardice of the Dutch commander (whose loyalties were questionable, considering the fact that he was dubiously friendly with Mladic). The 'Many Israelis' you refer to consider anyone who isn't a die-hard supporter of their cause as being prejudiced against them (not to mention to frequent labeling of anyone who isn't in favor of the colonists as an anti-semite by those same people), much like the fanatics on the other side of the fence will consider anyone who isn't a Jihadist as being prejudiced. That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations. As for the supposed "uselessness" of UN peacekeeping forces: I name UNAVEM II, the peacekeeping mission to Angola 1991-1993 and UNAMSIL, in Sierra Leone from 1999 to 2005, after the civil war there, as just two examples of succesful UN missions. |
| Micrówave 05.01.2009 11:12 |
Thomas Quinn wrote: That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations. So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then? |
| Raf 05.01.2009 13:29 |
Micrówave wrote:Thomas Quinn wrote: That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then? How was that comment useful to the topic? |
| thomasquinn 32989 06.01.2009 04:55 |
It wasn't, as per usual. When Microwave is annoyed, he starts to post little jokes like these. It's what a certain kind of person does when he can't think of a sensible response. Anyway, back on topic: the fact that Turkey is now being bitterly critical of Israel's actions might provide some positive impetus, being one of Israel's most important allies. I understand European and Arab leaders are currently trying to patch up a cease-fire by which both sides will refrain from violence, thought I doubt that at this time it will have any effect. |
| Micrówave 06.01.2009 11:50 |
Raf wrote:Micrówave wrote:How was that comment useful to the topic?Thomas Quinn wrote: That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then? About as useful (and one-sided) as post #11 in this thread. I didn't start calling people names. How useful is that to any topic? |
| Micrówave 06.01.2009 11:51 |
It wasn't, as per usual. When TQ is convinced he's right, he starts to call people names like this. It's what a certain kind of person does when he can't think of a sensible response. |
| thomasquinn 32989 06.01.2009 12:41 |
Israel has attacked UN schools today (2 or 3, depending on what report you take as true), where *civilian* refugees are hiding. If that isn't a war crime... |
| The Real Wizard 08.01.2009 03:46 |
Guy wrote: stuff... Holy crap.. Guy !!!!!! Haven't seen you in years! Drop me an email... hope you're well. |
| YourValentine 08.01.2009 04:47 |
Some interesting points have been risen here: "Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through." When did Britain and France evict all the Palestines from their land ... to ease their concious? I learned in school that Israel was founded by UN vote on the UN division plan in 1947. Until then Palestine was under British mandate. France could not really give asylum to Jews because the country was occupied by Germany. However, the Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis and sent almost all French Jews to the Nazi death camps. This happened in other countries like Italy, Austria, Poland - only Denmark protected their Jews. There was no need for Jews to "adopt" a victim mentality, they WERE victims who had nowhere to go. Nobody can say that the Jews should not be traumatized by what happened to them in Europe. It was the worst genocide ever committed in mankind in the most possible cruel way. When Israel was founded by UN vote, the Arab nations attacked the new state in the first night of its existence. 2 other big wars followed - the 6 day war and the Jom Kippur war plus many other smaller wars in which Israel fought for the sheer right to not be extinguished. Israel made peace for land (for example the Sinai peninsula,) and peace for being recognized by their Arab neighbours. The Hamas and the Hizbollah do not recognize the right for Israelis to live in their country. We can wonder if the UN division plan was a good idea but it was 60 years ago and Israel has been recognized by most countries in the world. Hamas and Hizbollah are no states, they are terror organisations. They hold their own people hostage in their ongoing hate campaigns, they do not mind shooting rockets from crowded cities like Gazah city. I cannot believe the suffering of the Palestine population in Gazah but I would like to hear a plan how Israel can defend their right to live in peace in their country without fighting back against the never stopping attacks by fundamentalists like Hamas and Hizbollah. All Israeli men and women have to serve 3 years in the army and they are reservists all their lives to be able to defend the country against the never stopping attacks. There have been countless meetings, peace plans, cease fires but the violence never stops. Israel stopped the settlings in Gaza strip and West Jordan, Egypt recognized Israel as did Jordan. Most Arab countries do not support the Hamas at all, they do not want the fundamentalists in their own countries, either. Most Israeli people want peace more than anything and do not condone the settlers or hostile measures like building the wall around Gazah strip. I really would like to know how the majority of all the people in the Middle East can obtain the peace they need so badly and make the killing stop. The whole situation is so hopeless. |
| thomasquinn 32989 08.01.2009 06:50 |
YourValentine wrote: Some interesting points have been risen here: "Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through." When did Britain and France evict all the Palestines from their land ... to ease their concious? I learned in school that Israel was founded by UN vote on the UN division plan in 1947. Until then Palestine was under British mandate. France could not really give asylum to Jews because the country was occupied by Germany. However, the Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis and sent almost all French Jews to the Nazi death camps. This happened in other countries like Italy, Austria, Poland - only Denmark protected their Jews. There was no need for Jews to "adopt" a victim mentality, they WERE victims who had nowhere to go. Nobody can say that the Jews should not be traumatized by what happened to them in Europe. It was the worst genocide ever committed in mankind in the most possible cruel way. When Israel was founded by UN vote, the Arab nations attacked the new state in the first night of its existence. 2 other big wars followed - the 6 day war and the Jom Kippur war plus many other smaller wars in which Israel fought for the sheer right to not be extinguished. Israel made peace for land (for example the Sinai peninsula,) and peace for being recognized by their Arab neighbours. The Hamas and the Hizbollah do not recognize the right for Israelis to live in their country. We can wonder if the UN division plan was a good idea but it was 60 years ago and Israel has been recognized by most countries in the world. Hamas and Hizbollah are no states, they are terror organisations. They hold their own people hostage in their ongoing hate campaigns, they do not mind shooting rockets from crowded cities like Gazah city. I cannot believe the suffering of the Palestine population in Gazah but I would like to hear a plan how Israel can defend their right to live in peace in their country without fighting back against the never stopping attacks by fundamentalists like Hamas and Hizbollah. All Israeli men and women have to serve 3 years in the army and they are reservists all their lives to be able to defend the country against the never stopping attacks. There have been countless meetings, peace plans, cease fires but the violence never stops. Israel stopped the settlings in Gaza strip and West Jordan, Egypt recognized Israel as did Jordan. Most Arab countries do not support the Hamas at all, they do not want the fundamentalists in their own countries, either. Most Israeli people want peace more than anything and do not condone the settlers or hostile measures like building the wall around Gazah strip. I really would like to know how the majority of all the people in the Middle East can obtain the peace they need so badly and make the killing stop. The whole situation is so hopeless. The big picture you paint is correct. However, a few necessary details are still lacking: - The state of Israel was officially sanctioned by the UN in 1947. Before that date, however, several Jewish-Zionist organizations (organizations which wanted to set up a Jewish Homeland) had been buying land in what is now Israel for settlement since before WWII. They bought this land from Arab absentee landlords, who already had tenants on this land (the Palestinians), but didn't give a shit, because there was profit to be made. When the Jewish settlers found these Palestinians on what was now their land, two different courses of action were undertaken. One group found ways to coexist peacefully with the Palestinians on their land, another group decided, using the argument that they had legally bought the land, to violently evict the Palestinians who were living on it. - The latter group of Israeli settlers, the ones who didn't want to live peacefully with the Palestinians, was and has always remained a minority group. They were the ones who committed the terrorist acts against the British during their mandate, and the Colonists, the groups of Israelis who illegally occupy Palestinian territories, come from that group. Sadly, they are backed by the military establishment (and thus most right-winged parties in Israel) for a number of reasons: they are part of the cause of all the violence that justifies the enormous size of the Israeli army (and thus the Israeli army's budget) relative to the population, they enlarge the territory of the state of Israel by means of annexation, and they usually support conservative policy. - From day one onwards, elements in the Arab world (both Palestinians and others) have felt threatened by Israel, and have decided, foolishly and criminally, to deal with that violently. So, Israeli and Palestinian/Arab violence perpetuate each other. - One pivotal point: Hamas' strength is solely to be blamed on the current Israeli government and the Sharon-government before it, which funded Hamas in an attempt to destabilize the Fatah regime, which was seen as more of a threat at the time. The result was similar to the US funding of the Taliban. |
| thomasquinn 32989 08.01.2009 07:11 |
Red Cross Discovers Atrocities. The Grim Truth: The Result Of Mass Attacks |
| YourValentine 08.01.2009 09:08 |
Yes, it's heart breaking. War is never a solution. I wish someone knew the way to solve this peacefully and put an end to the decades of hatred and bloodshed. |
| Micrówave 08.01.2009 11:48 |
This is terrible, but not so one-sided. The casualty count is. Unfortunately, Hamas has been launching these rockets even after the supposed cease-fire was in place. And they're launching them from an extremely populated area. Daily life for an Israeli living there are the sounds of air-raid sirens, giving a few minutes warning until the missle strikes it's random target. But it is also clear that NO ONE has an exit plan here and many civilians will lose their lives for it. |
| thomasquinn 32989 08.01.2009 13:28 |
A) Both Hamas and Israel observed the official cease-fire B) Nearly all rockets are intercepted by Israel's excellent air defence system. Compare casualties per 1000 of the population, and see how much worse of Palestinian citizens are. C) Israel has attacked a UN convoy today. Here's the article. Or is that also propaganda? Or perhaps you deem this acceptable, considering the huge threat to the security of Israeli citizens posed by UN humanitarian aid... |
| Micrówave 09.01.2009 11:06 |
A) You shouldn't talk to nazis B) Both HAMAS and ISRAEL did NOT observe the cease fire. But then, Time Magazine is probably run by nazis as well. C) I'm wearing my KILL 'EM ALL IN GAZA T-shirt today... just for you. Get your facts straight. (see item B) Then, maybe you can A-B-C things better. And what does "see how much worse of Palestinian citizens are" mean? |
| FriedChicken 09.01.2009 11:10 |
the declaration of independence of Israel back in 1948 was a mistake... |
| Guy 09.01.2009 14:02 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: B) Nearly all rockets are intercepted by Israel's excellent air defence system. Care to provide some kind of proof? Or is this just another one of your implausible claims, that you so conveniently choose to present as well-established facts? |
| Micrówave 09.01.2009 15:23 |
The only real difference between TQ and TM is that Caspar has decent taste in music and he doesn't capitalize his outrageous FACTS. |
| YourValentine 10.01.2009 04:39 |
Even if the Israeli air defense were able to destroy a high percentage of the incoming rockets it would not make it more right to fire them. No country in the world would allow a neighbour to fire random rockets on their territory. You can argue about the response and the many civilian casualties which is really hard to bear but you have to keep in mind the unique situation of Israel: No other country has been permanently fighting for its sheer existence like Israel and the Jewish holocaust trauma should not be belittled. Just remember for a moment what happened in the second gulf war (1991): although Israel was not involved in the war AT ALL the Iraq fired SCUD rockets into the cities and there was a huge fear that they carried chemical weapons. Just imagine you sit in your house with gas masks for man, woman and child and someone you never had a problem with fires rockets at your home for pure hatred. The USA demanded that Israel did not fight back in order to avoid problems with their Arab allies and Israel obliged in order to not annoy their most powerful friend. You can say this has nothing to do with the Gaza strip situation today but it has. It's very hard for any Israeli government to tell the people they have to take yet another attack for the sake of peace and humanity. I am sure that the Palestines have to tell many stories of injustice and cruelty themselves but as long as they vote for a terror organisation as a government they won't get anything but lip service from the international community. Even the conservative Arab nations do not want to support the Hamas for fear that the terror will spread to their own countries. However, I think there must be a way to stop the incredible suffering in Gaza. It's hard to see how the world watches and nobody has a plan how to stop this killing. |
| thomasquinn 32989 10.01.2009 06:43 |
YourValentine wrote: Even if the Israeli air defense were able to destroy a high percentage of the incoming rockets it would not make it more right to fire them. No country in the world would allow a neighbour to fire random rockets on their territory. You can argue about the response and the many civilian casualties which is really hard to bear but you have to keep in mind the unique situation of Israel: I was responding to the supposed casualty count inflicted, not the act of violence itself. What I was pointing out was that the response is disproportional to the original act; not only does this destroy numerous lives of innocent civilians, it also plays straight into the hand of extremists, who now have more arguments to demonstrate to Palestinian youths that Israel is out to destroy them. That is not true (at least, I hope it's still as untrue as it was a few years ago; I'm not so sure with Olmert, who is a fanatic himself), but I can certainly imagine that many Palestinians would believe it. In fact, in the Dutch newspapers today (I read it in the PZC, but I understand it's featured in other papers as well) a Major-General of the Dutch armed forces argued that very same thing. "No other country has been permanently fighting for its sheer existence like Israel and the Jewish holocaust trauma should not be belittled. Just remember for a moment what happened in the second gulf war (1991): although Israel was not involved in the war AT ALL the Iraq fired SCUD rockets into the cities and there was a huge fear that they carried chemical weapons. Just imagine you sit in your house with gas masks for man, woman and child and someone you never had a problem with fires rockets at your home for pure hatred. The USA demanded that Israel did not fight back in order to avoid problems with their Arab allies and Israel obliged in order to not annoy their most powerful friend. You can say this has nothing to do with the Gaza strip situation today but it has. It's very hard for any Israeli government to tell the people they have to take yet another attack for the sake of peace and humanity. I am sure that the Palestines have to tell many stories of injustice and cruelty themselves but as long as they vote for a terror organisation as a government they won't get anything but lip service from the international community. Even the conservative Arab nations do not want to support the Hamas for fear that the terror will spread to their own countries. However, I think there must be a way to stop the incredible suffering in Gaza. It's hard to see how the world watches and nobody has a plan how to stop this killing." Iraq was totally unjustified in that entire war, not just the attack on Israel (don't forget the Kuweit affair and the murder of Kurds, which was even more horrific). The Holocaust was perhaps the biggest crime in the history of mankind (though, as an historian, I think the 30 Years War (1618-1648) was even worse, as it killed between 30 and 70% of the population of the present day south of Germany, ranging from region to region). However, over sixty years after this happened, it can no longer be an argument in the acts of the Israeli government. The fact remains that Israel has instituted a regime of apartheid; incidents of Israeli soldiers and colonists abusing Palestinians are so numerous that they can hardly be called 'incidents' (want proof? There are literally hundreds of videorecordings of these acts made by Palestinians who received camcorders from an *Israeli* humanitarian organization. Yes, people, many ISRAELIS also feel that their government is mistreating Palestinians). This sort of behaviour reminds me of the way the nazis acted towards the Jews in the early phase of the nazi regime (1933-1939). The whole point is that a spiral of violence has been created by both sides; Hamas is at least in part the fault of this very Israeli government that is now fighting them. They funded them, like the US funded the Taliban and the Contras in Niceragua, in the hopes of destabilizing Fatah, which is thoroughly corrupt. A clear case of divide-and-conquer policy gone wrong. What is needed now is a moderate regime on both sides of the fence (Fatah seems to be the lesser evil, and there are a number of moderate parties in Israel), and international peacekeepers to deal with radicals of both sides trying to subvert the peace process. Hopefully, a more sensible foreign policy will arise under Obama, that will not blindly follow one side in a conflict, as the Neo-Cons did these last 8 years, but make demands on both sides, and give to both sides. |
| thomasquinn 32989 10.01.2009 06:44 |
Incidentally, would it be possible to fix the quote function? The tag-based version worked a hell of a lot better. |
| Guy 10.01.2009 14:20 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: This sort of behaviour reminds me of the way the nazis acted towards the Jews in the early phase of the nazi regime (1933-1939). You know, TQ, it's amazing how you haven't changed a bit! (search that page for "Maybe you think") |
| Ms. Rebel 10.01.2009 14:27 |
YourValentine wrote: Yes, it's heart breaking. War is never a solution. I wish someone knew the way to solve this peacefully and put an end to the decades of hatred and bloodshed. I totally agree with you. :( |
| Micrówave 12.01.2009 11:59 |
@ Guy Glad to see I'm not the only "nazi" here in Casparland. I guess we all are nazis. Although, I've never seen you guys at the meetings. It's a much healthier discussion if we simply ignore Caspar Hitler's posts. I don't believe he really is Jewish, if he possesses that much hate and likes to use "nazi" as a common insult. |
| Micrówave 12.01.2009 12:02 |
Caspar Hitler wrote: I was responding to the supposed casualty count inflicted, not the act of violence itself. Bullshit... you little wanker. You flip-flop more than George Bush. Junior and Senior. |
| thomasquinn 32989 12.01.2009 14:22 |
Ah, yeah; Israel did not attack a UN convoy. Nor did it attack a UN school, claiming it was being used as a base by terrorists, despite *all* UN sources saying otherwise. Yeah, they're just behaving fine and dandy, sooooo much better than those Palestinians, who are the only ones who ever do anything wrong in the middle east. |
| Micrówave 12.01.2009 17:45 |
So, you're sticking with your one sided stance on this. Which is probably exactly what the people of both countries have been doing for years and why this war goes on and on and on. Good thinking, Man-of-steel. Perhaps you should quit now, that glowing green rock is getting bigger and bigger. |
| inu-liger 12.01.2009 23:02 |
I'll have to side with Microwave and Guy this time, TQ's views are rather extremist, and while I applaud him for using links to news articles and such to try and back up his views (unlike so many other people here), his views indeed are very one-sided and borderline controversial. If I recall, it was his inappropriate behaviour like this that actually got him banned and removed here once some years ago. No offense to you Thomas, but you need to start waking up to people's views other than your own (in order to see in AND outside the box, so to speak). I had to learn that the hard way. |
| thomasquinn 32989 13.01.2009 06:15 |
I have already condemned Hamas, both in this topic and out of it. What do you want me to do, go over there and shoot some of them? The whole point is that the entire world is already aware of Hamas' inherent evil. There is absolutely no need to point it out any more, as it wouldn't be news to anyone. However, Israel is just as bad, and it is general policy to ignore that (and has been for decades). THAT is the one-sidedness of this conflict, and that is the prime cause for the failure of the peace proces: the Arab nations and the Palestinians do not have faith in the West, because we allow Israel to get away with anything, while we do condemn the Palestininans whenever they cross the line. Unless we start treating both sides the same, peace cannot and will not be attained. |
| john bodega 13.01.2009 06:30 |
No really, fuck Israel. I feel sorry for those one or two awesome people that I've met who have come from there. They deserve to have a homeland that they can be proud of. As for Hamas, nothing but a bunch of rocket flinging monkeys. They won't be happy until they take the rest of the region with them. If there were a way to wipe them off the map, I'd be all for it, but there isn't. You'll just see more US-style misfires and collateral damage on the part of Israel. The only reason I lean slightly towards saying 'fuck Israel' before saying 'fuck Hamas' is that Israel is the bigger one, and you can't say shit against them without hearing some maggot cry 'anti-Semitism'. |
| inu-liger 13.01.2009 06:33 |
Zebonka12 wrote: The only reason I lean slightly towards saying 'fuck Israel' before saying 'fuck Hamas' is that Israel is the bigger one, and you can't say shit against them without hearing some maggot cry 'anti-Semitism'. ......or being labelled a Nazi ^_^ What would be a response then to someone who says "Fuck Political Correctness"? |
| thomasquinn 32989 13.01.2009 06:36 |
Zebonka12 wrote: No really, fuck Israel. I feel sorry for those one or two awesome people that I've met who have come from there. They deserve to have a homeland that they can be proud of. As for Hamas, nothing but a bunch of rocket flinging monkeys. They won't be happy until they take the rest of the region with them. If there were a way to wipe them off the map, I'd be all for it, but there isn't. You'll just see more US-style misfires and collateral damage on the part of Israel. The only reason I lean slightly towards saying 'fuck Israel' before saying 'fuck Hamas' is that Israel is the bigger one, and you can't say shit against them without hearing some maggot cry 'anti-Semitism'. Spot on. Both sides are ruled by violent criminals (and Fatah is no good either), yet one is only allowed to say that of one side in the conflict: the one we (the West) are not in a formal alliance with. Of course they should be allowed to protect themselves, but I'd say there's still a difference between protecting yourself and using white phosphorus on densely populated areas, which has been outlawed ages ago. |
| The Mir@cle 13.01.2009 09:53 |
ThomasQuinn wrote:Zebonka12 wrote: No really, fuck Israel. I feel sorry for those one or two awesome people that I've met who have come from there. They deserve to have a homeland that they can be proud of. As for Hamas, nothing but a bunch of rocket flinging monkeys. They won't be happy until they take the rest of the region with them. If there were a way to wipe them off the map, I'd be all for it, but there isn't. You'll just see more US-style misfires and collateral damage on the part of Israel. The only reason I lean slightly towards saying 'fuck Israel' before saying 'fuck Hamas' is that Israel is the bigger one, and you can't say shit against them without hearing some maggot cry 'anti-Semitism'.Spot on. Both sides are ruled by violent criminals (and Fatah is no good either), yet one is only allowed to say that of one side in the conflict: the one we (the West) are not in a formal alliance with. Of course they should be allowed to protect themselves, but I'd say there's still a difference between protecting yourself and using white phosphorus on densely populated areas, which has been outlawed ages ago. They're not only using phosphorus... I've seen them shooting an European UN medic who tried to help a wounded person. Just to point out why they don't want any journalists out there. What Israel does right now doesn't solve anything and they know that. In fact, they create even more hate under the people that till today didn't support Hamas. What would you do if they block all your ways to live a life and eventually kill your family for no reason? This "war" makes the problem only worse. And the past has shown us that these people aren't gonna solve the problem. Maybe we need a referee? |
| Micrówave 14.01.2009 17:31 |
Bin Laden message: Stop 'aggression' against Gaza
Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has apparently released a new audio message calling for a jihad, or holy war, against Israel for its Gaza campaign.
In fact, ol' Bin Laden is calling for a jihad against the Gaza attacks.
If TQ has is way, I'll be swingin' from the gavels. Jihad THIS!
Now, if you think Israel is justified in murdering the population of Gaza, as you obviously are, I suggest we hang you, as the theory needed to justify that would put you in strict accordance, excluding anti-Semitism, with the defending parties in the Nurenberg trials. Not surprised that Osama and Casparama bin Laden have the same strong feelings. |
| Micrówave 14.01.2009 17:32 |
and it's Nuremberg, dipshit. |
| YourValentine 15.01.2009 05:38 |
In fact it's Nürnberg... Thomas Quinn wrote: "Spot on. Both sides are ruled by violent criminals (and Fatah is no good either), yet one is only allowed to say that of one side in the conflict: the one we (the West) are not in a formal alliance with. ...." No idea about Holland but in Germany you can blame Israel although we are tiptoeing around in order to not hurt their feelings (for good reasons). We had several big demonstrations by pro-Palestinian organisations and 3 smaller pro-Israel demonstrations. The government asks both parties to end the violence which is the policy of the EU and the UN alike: stop the shooting an return to talking. The citizens can say what they think , they can call the Israel government a bunch of killers or zionists or whatever they like, it's freedom of speech. |
| The Mir@cle 15.01.2009 06:01 |
YourValentine wrote: In fact it's Nürnberg... Thomas Quinn wrote: "Spot on. Both sides are ruled by violent criminals (and Fatah is no good either), yet one is only allowed to say that of one side in the conflict: the one we (the West) are not in a formal alliance with. ...." No idea about Holland but in Germany you can blame Israel although we are tiptoeing around in order to not hurt their feelings (for good reasons). We had several big demonstrations by pro-Palestinian organisations and 3 smaller pro-Israel demonstrations. The government asks both parties to end the violence which is the policy of the EU and the UN alike: stop the shooting an return to talking. The citizens can say what they think , they can call the Israel government a bunch of killers or zionists or whatever they like, it's freedom of speech. The problem here is that our most famous lawyer is a Jew. And he's gonna but some politicians on trial for demonstrating against Israel..... so here you have to be careful what you say! [img=/images/smiley/msn/wink_smile.gif][/img] |
| inu-liger 15.01.2009 06:20 |
The Mir@cle wrote:YourValentine wrote: In fact it's Nürnberg... Thomas Quinn wrote: "Spot on. Both sides are ruled by violent criminals (and Fatah is no good either), yet one is only allowed to say that of one side in the conflict: the one we (the West) are not in a formal alliance with. ...." No idea about Holland but in Germany you can blame Israel although we are tiptoeing around in order to not hurt their feelings (for good reasons). We had several big demonstrations by pro-Palestinian organisations and 3 smaller pro-Israel demonstrations. The government asks both parties to end the violence which is the policy of the EU and the UN alike: stop the shooting an return to talking. The citizens can say what they think , they can call the Israel government a bunch of killers or zionists or whatever they like, it's freedom of speech.The problem here is that our most famous lawyer is a Jew. And he's gonna but some politicians on trial for demonstrating against Israel..... so here you have to be careful what you say! [img=/images/smiley/msn/wink_smile.gif][/img] Talk about the irony... What we need are politicians who do NOT follow any particular religion, in my view. It really fucks everything up when you fail to separate church/religion from state thanks to certain leaders or top authority figures. I'm just thankful that in 5 days, our neighbours to the south will be finally rid of a man who honestly believes his personal wars against certain countries are "God's Will" (chortle) |
| Guy 15.01.2009 13:11 |
If we want to have a real discussion, I suggest those opposed to the Israeli operation will clarify what, exactly, their claim is: - the operation itself is unjustified - the methods being used by Israel as part of the operation are unjustified - both Then we can have an intelligent discussion, rather than calling each other "nazi" and "anti-semitic" over and over. Agreed? |
| thomasquinn 32989 15.01.2009 13:15 |
YourValentine wrote: In fact it's Nürnberg... Thomas Quinn wrote: "Spot on. Both sides are ruled by violent criminals (and Fatah is no good either), yet one is only allowed to say that of one side in the conflict: the one we (the West) are not in a formal alliance with. ...." No idea about Holland but in Germany you can blame Israel although we are tiptoeing around in order to not hurt their feelings (for good reasons). We had several big demonstrations by pro-Palestinian organisations and 3 smaller pro-Israel demonstrations. The government asks both parties to end the violence which is the policy of the EU and the UN alike: stop the shooting an return to talking. The citizens can say what they think , they can call the Israel government a bunch of killers or zionists or whatever they like, it's freedom of speech. Nürnberg is the German spelling. English has always shown a preference for the French names of many cities (thus it's Aix-la-Chapelle rather than Aachen when we speak of the peace treaty, and Cologne rather than Köln). I chose the English spelling, but I could've opted for the German as you point out. Anyway, here in Holland, they're currently looking for ways to persecute a congresman for taking part in a demonstration during which *other people* not even associated with him yelled anti-Semitic bullshit. |
| The Real Wizard 15.01.2009 14:36 |
Today the IDF has flattened the UN headquarters in Gaza, destroying plenty of humanitarian aid intended for the thousands of injured civilians. link And on a side note, they've even killed journalists: link link Someone please, provide a rational explanation as to how this isn't the IDF trying to sensor their atrocities past and present, and why this is different from any other instance of ethnic cleansing in recent history. |
| Micrówave 15.01.2009 16:12 |
AND
GAZA CITY, Gaza (CNN) -- An Israeli artillery strike Thursday killed the third most senior Hamas leader in Gaza, Hamas television announced. Saeed Siam was killed "in the latest shelling on a house" in Gaza City's Sheikh Radwan neighborhood, said Al-Aqsa TV, which showed images of a body it identified as Siam. Siam served as interior minister in the Hamas-led government before it was dissolved in 2007 BUT STILL THOUGHT OF AS THE LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT ACCORDING TO THOMAS QUINN (see previous posts). He ranked behind only former Prime Minister Ismail Haniya and former Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar in Hamas' Gaza hierarchy. So it's not just a baby bar-b-que going on. Yes, war sucks. And civilians die. Civilians also die from Hamas missles that aren't shot down by the Super Dooper Israeli Missle Pooper that apparently shoots down every missle ever made. I'm not taking sides, as TQ wants me and my nazi klan brothers and sisters to. I'm merely pointing out that both sides are killing. One just happens to be a little more accurate (or not, depending on your point-of-view). |
| The Real Wizard 15.01.2009 16:22 |
Micrówave wrote: I'm merely pointing out that both sides are killing. Yes, but the numbers are far from equal. Less than 10 Israeli civilian deaths vs about 500 Palestinians. And the Palestinian side isn't the one cutting off relief (and destroying UN headquarters) for their injured. Other than that, you're spot on. |
| The Mir@cle 15.01.2009 17:05 |
Sir GH wrote:Micrówave wrote: I'm merely pointing out that both sides are killing.Yes, but the numbers are far from equal. Less than 10 Israeli civilian deaths vs about 500 Palestinians. And the Palestinian side isn't the one cutting off relief (and destroying UN headquarters) for their injured. Other than that, you're spot on. Make it a 1000 civilian deaths... Already 300 innocent children died of this one sided war. You can't compare this to the few home made Hamas rockets who misses their targets each day, or can you Microwave? |
| Micrówave 16.01.2009 10:56 |
You most certainly can compare it!!! A few homemade rockets? Why not read a little from the Israeli point-of-view? Time magazine reports about a dozen missles an hour get fired. Missle raid warnings go off about every seven minutes. Families scramble to find shelter, they've got about 5-10 minutes to take cover. But that's ok for people to live like that? Rockets are being fired from a densely populated area into a more rural area. That explains the reasons for the difference in casualty count. How can you seriously think that I am for the killing? All you people are talking about is how one-sided this war is. Is there some kind of rule where warring nations must have equal kill counts? Rather than condemn one side, get the facts. Imagine yourself in both positions. A cease fire was signed. Hamas kept shooting random missles into Israel. Was Israel supposed to just say "stop it" and do nothing further? I'd be interested in your answers to that question. |
| Guy 16.01.2009 11:31 |
Sir GH wrote: Today the IDF has flattened the UN headquarters in Gaza, destroying plenty of humanitarian aid intended for the thousands of injured civilians. link And on a side note, they've even killed journalists: link link Someone please, provide a rational explanation as to how this isn't the IDF trying to sensor their atrocities past and present, and why this is different from any other instance of ethnic cleansing in recent history. It's quite simple. According to international law, there are two main protected categories: [listo] [li]Civilians - "The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack" (Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions, Article 51(2)) [li]Civilian objects - "Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals" (Article 52(1)) A party to the conflict cannot direct attacks [/listo] However, there are two important exceptions to these rules, which allow directing attacks at the categories mentioned above: [listo] [li]Civilians - "Civilians shall enjoy the protection... unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities" (Article 51(3)). That means that if a civilian takes a direct part in hostilities, he loses (for that time) his protected status. [li]Civilian objects - "Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives" (Article 52(1)). That means that if a civilian object becomes a military objective, it is a legitimate target. And what is a "military objective"? The law has an answer for that as well: "military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military of advantage" (Article 52(2)). [/listo] In any case, the rules above only relate to directing attacks. People or objects in the two protected categories, even if they do not lose their protected status, may be harmed as collateral damage - as long as the attack is aimed at military targets (whether persons are objects), and as long as the damage caused to the civilian population does not exceed the direct military advantage anticipated (Articles 51(5)(b) and 57). Now to what the IDF did: [listo] [li]Attacking UNRWA's headquarters [listu] [li]The IDF claims Hamas militants inside the headquarters fired at Israel soldiers. The presence of militants there is not surprising, since UNRWA deals with all kinds of Palestininan refugees. [li]Once Hamas fires from within the headquaters, the location turn into a military objective and may be attacked (subject to the proportionality rule mentioned before). [li]Still, Israel pays great attention to the needs of the civilian population in Gaza. [li]Article 70(2) of Additional Protocol I states: "The Parties to the conflict... shall allow and facilitate rapid and unimpeded passage of all relief consignments, equipment and personnel provided in accordance with this Section". [li]Similarly, Article 23 of the Fourth Geneva Convention reads: "Each High Contracting Party shall allow the free passage of all consignments of medical and hospital stores and objects necessary for religious worship intended only for civilians of another High Contracting Party, even if the latter is its adversary. It shall likewise permit the free passage of all consignments of essential foodstuffs, clothing and tonics intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers and maternity cases". [li]Accordingly, Israel lets relief consignments into Gaza and has even created a daily 4-hour humanitarian corridor, during which the IDF refrains completely from attacking Hamas targets (even though Hamas takes advantage of this and continues to fire rockets at Israeli cities). [li] [/listu] [li]Killing journalists [listu] [li]"Journalists engaged in dangerous professional missions in areas of armed conflict shall be considered as civilians" (Article 79(1)) - That means that aiming attacks at journalists is prohobited, but they may be harmed (like any other civilian) as collateral damage. Sounds bad? Well, that's war. [li]"They shall be protected as such under the Conventions and this Protocol, provided that they take no action adversely affecting their status as civilians" (Article 79(2)) - So if a journalist takes a direct part in the hostilities, the adverse party (=Israel) can direct attacks at him/her. We do not know if that's the case here, but please keep in mind "journalist" is not a magic word that renders one angelic. [/listu] [/listo] |
| Guy 16.01.2009 11:37 |
Sir GH wrote:Micrówave wrote: I'm merely pointing out that both sides are killing.Yes, but the numbers are far from equal. Less than 10 Israeli civilian deaths vs about 500 Palestinians. And the Palestinian side isn't the one cutting off relief (and destroying UN headquarters) for their injured. Other than that, you're spot on. The numbers are not how you determine whether methods and means of warfare are allowed or not. It's not only killing that's proscribed, it's also "merely" attacking. Terrorizing as a primary purpose is prohibited as well: [listu] [li]"The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited" (Additional Protocol I, Article 51(2)) [/listu] The rockets Hamas fires, as a weapon, are also prohibited: [listu] [li]"Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are: (a) Those which are not directed at a specific military objective; (b) Those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective..." (Article 51(4)). So using these rockets is proscribed in both ways. [/listu] |
| The Real Wizard 16.01.2009 12:48 |
Micrówave wrote: Time magazine reports about a dozen missles an hour get fired. Missle raid warnings go off about every seven minutes. Families scramble to find shelter, they've got about 5-10 minutes to take cover. But that's ok for people to live like that? Rockets are being fired from a densely populated area into a more rural area. That explains the reasons for the difference in casualty count. Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, I've never had any doubt that it goes both ways. My biggest beef is just the double-standard of calling it "terrorism" when it's a Muslim and "self-defense" when it's Israel. It's murder and it's war, on both ends. >A cease fire was signed. Hamas kept shooting random missles into Israel. It's well-documented that it was Israel who broke the ceasefire on November 4 - right around when the US elections were happening. I hardly think that was a coincidence. And you can bet your life savings that it will be over by Jan 19, as Obama is being sworn in on the 20th. Guy, you can pull out the book and tell me who's a civilian and who isn't. As much as one can claim that terrorists are hiding behind civilians, it still disturbs me that it can be used to justify civilian deaths without a shred of remorse. Numbers aside and who's killing who aside, the fact that Israel is killing journalists and bombed the UN headquarters in Gaza is completely inexcusable. Even at the most brutal heights of war, when a medic is helping someone or removing a dead body, general etiquette is observed when an opposing soldier waits for brief moment before fighting again. But to destroy food and medical supplies for the people they have injured? That is the lowest of all lows. |
| The Real Wizard 16.01.2009 13:22 |
Here's some perspective for any American who wants to consider it. All I've done is repeat the history and used ratio to adjust the numbers appropriately: Zionists immigrate to the US. They cram 300,000,000 people into 20,000 square miles of ghetto. They seal you off, and cut off most supplies. You rebel. The Zionists attack you using 21st century military US taxpayer-paid artillery. They call you terrorists. They murder 250,000 and maim 1,250,000 of you in 3 weeks. They call it self-defense. They say you are cowards hiding behind civilians and children. How would you feel? |
| Guy 16.01.2009 13:24 |
Sir GH wrote: It's well-documented that it was Israel who broke the ceasefire on November 4 - right around when the US elections were happening. I hardly think that was a coincidence. The ceasefire was still active in December, and that's a fact (from the most left-wing newspaper I know). -> "the fact that Israel is killing journalists and bombed the UN headquarters in Gaza is completely inexcusable" But it is, Bob. International Humanitarian Law says it could be perfectly excusable. And I've shown you how. If you choose to ignore the law, that's your choice; but Israel wishes to comply with the law, and therefore cannot ignore it. |
| Guy 16.01.2009 13:31 |
Sir GH wrote: Here's some perspective for any American who wants to consider it. All I've done is repeat the history and used ratio to adjust the numbers appropriately: Zionists immigrate to the US. They cram 300,000,000 people into 20,000 square miles of ghetto. They seal you off, and cut off most supplies. You rebel. The Zionists attack you using 21st century military US taxpayer-paid artillery. They call you terrorists. They murder 250,000 and maim 1,250,000 of you in 3 weeks. They call it self-defense. They say you are cowards hiding behind civilians and children. How would you feel? You need to get your facts straight. I suggest you start with this and this. If you want a good summary of the official Israeli position, here it is: http://www.unreal.co.il/stuff/IDF_Legal_Stance.wmv. |
| Donna13 16.01.2009 13:57 |
I think Hamas knew that there would be many civilian deaths and injuries and suffering. There are plenty of images and videos for the rest of the world to see. This is as Hamas intended. They are using their own people in a calculated way. And I think that this is what terrorists do. As for Israel's part in this, I think they have been in an unnecessary hurry but that's just my uneducated opinion. They've got them surrounded, right? If they had tried to achieve good will and cooperation among the anti-Hamas Palestinians, it may have been a better long term strategy. I'm referring to my idea (and I know nothing of how this would work) that maybe they should have carried out this operation in more of a police-raid type of style rather than using bombs and blowing up targets. I do think that by using bombs, they are playing into Hamas's plans. Anyway, Guy, I hope you and your family stay safe during this conflict and that it is all over soon. |
| The Real Wizard 16.01.2009 14:13 |
Guy wrote:Sir GH wrote: It's well-documented that it was Israel who broke the ceasefire on November 4 - right around when the US elections were happening. I hardly think that was a coincidence.The ceasefire was still active in December, and that's a fact (from the most left-wing newspaper I know). Right, I know that. Israel broke the ceasefire, but it officially remained in place until December. >International Humanitarian Law says it could be perfectly excusable. And I've shown you how. If you choose to ignore the law, that's your choice; but Israel wishes to comply with the law, and therefore cannot ignore it. Law isn't inherently correct on all levels for all people involved. Law or no law, it's a question of feeling empathy for the thousands of civilians that have been injured or killed, without hiding behind said law as a way to somehow excuse the atrocities on a human level. And I'm well aware of the UN Partition Plan for Palestine and the 1948 war. Things were just fine after that until 1967 when Israel decided to take over Gaza in violation of the Partition Plan. Feel free to fill in the blanks if I'm missing anything. |
| L-R-TIGER1994 16.01.2009 14:25 |
Israel are the Nazis of the 21st Century,they are doing the same that Hittler did to them,create Ghettos(ex:Palestina and some cities that are surrounded by walls) and make a massacre to which they "consider" dangerous or may be a threaten to their security.Hey Mr Bush!!Saddam didn't use weapons and was killed thank to the US "help" to free Irak,the country was sacked and bombed,Israel is using phosporus to kill men,women,terrorists,children,everyone!don't you see it????may be you are drinking some Scotch Mr Bush... |
| Guy 16.01.2009 15:01 |
Sir GH wrote: Right, I know that. Israel broke the ceasefire, but it officially remained in place until December. >International Humanitarian Law says it could be perfectly excusable. And I've shown you how. If you choose to ignore the law, that's your choice; but Israel wishes to comply with the law, and therefore cannot ignore it. Law isn't inherently correct on all levels for all people involved. Law or no law, it's a question of feeling empathy for the thousands of civilians that have been injured or killed, without hiding behind said law as a way to somehow excuse the atrocities on a human level. And I'm well aware of the UN Partition Plan for Palestine and the 1948 war. Things were just fine after that until 1967 when Israel decided to take over Gaza in violation of the Partition Plan. Feel free to fill in the blanks if I'm missing anything. I think it was Hamas that broke the ceasefire, but that's not really the issue now, is it? Civilians are not the only ones affected by war, you know; soldiers are as well. Nevertheless, perhaps the greatest achievement of the Red Cross is the Geneva Conventions. And you can't really suspect the Red Cross as being biased towards states. In this respect, law is "inherently correct on all levels for all people involved". Although law is not identical to morals, much of international humanitarian law is based upon moral premises. We agree that combatants may be attacked at almost any time, while directing attacks at non-combatants is almost never justified. This legal framework is morally sound (for more, see Michael Walzer, Just and Unjust Wars [Basic Books, 1977]). Moreover, the international community has agreed on international humanitarian law. Every state in the world has signed and ratified the four Geneva Conventions. Therefore, the international community cannot ignore international law, and every action during warfare (by both sides!) should be examined in light of the law. Things were not "just fine" until 1967. What about the 1956 Suez War? And especially this: "From 1955 to 1956, Egypt took an increasingly hostile attitude towards Israel. Hundreds of Israelis were killed in Fedayeen attacks from (Egyptian occupied) Gaza into Israeli territory" (quoted from here) Occupying Gaza at that point, and in 1967, didn't violate the Partition Plan, because Article 51 of the United Nations Charter enabled it. Regarding what happened with the occupation afterwards - well, we can argue about that forever, but it doesn't matter anymore. Israel has withdrawn from the Gaza strip in 2005. Donna, thank you very much and Amen to that. |
| The Real Wizard 16.01.2009 16:12 |
Fair enough, I need to do my research on 1948-1967. But it is what happened in 1967 that has perpetuated the conflict to where it is today. >link. There's plenty of propaganda in there. Of course there is terrorism on the Palestinian side. Nobody is debating that. But it goes both ways, and thankfully there have been plenty of media outlets exposing both sides of it. All I have left to add is this, from the gospel of the great Noam Chomsky, written in 1992: "We have to make a crucial decision: are we racists or aren't we? If we're not racists, then the indigenous population has the same rights of self-determination as the settlers who replaced them. Some might claim more, but let's say at least as much right. The only realistic political settlement, for the time being... is a two-state settlement. Everybody knows what it would have to be: Israel within approximately the pre-June 1967 borders and a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and a return of the Golan Heights to Syria, or maybe some other arrangement. It's supported by most of the world. The United States and Israel adamantly oppose it. The United States will not consider it. Both political groupings in Israel reject it totally. They reject any right of national self-determination for the indigenous population in the former Palestine. "No one can be a partner with us in a land that has been holy to our people for 2000 years." That's the position. They're willing to make minor adjustments. They don't want to take care of the population in the West Bank, because there are too many Arabs; they don't want a lot of Arabs around, so what they would like to do is take the areas and the water and the resources they want from the West Bank but leave the population, either stateless or under Jordanian control. That's what's called a "compromise solution." It's a very cynical proposal, even worse in many respects than annexation. The Palestinians are not human, they do not deserve the rights that we accord automatically to the settlers who displaced them. That's the basis of articulate American discussion: pure, unadulterated racism. Again, that's not true of the population, as usual, but it is of the politically active and articulate parts of it and certainly the government. As long as the United States and Israel reject the political settlement, there can't be one." |
| Mr.Jingles 16.01.2009 16:44 |
The numbers don't lie... link About 5% of Israeli casualities Vs 95% of Palestinian casualties. ...and people are still willing to justify Israel's actions? |
| L-R-TIGER1994 16.01.2009 17:44 |
If a bomb kills a jew is anti-semitism,if Israel bombs a school is a "collateral effect" of the war,what a crazy world... I'm not again or for any side,I wish there were peace there forever but the point is:humans never learn from the past,I've heard million times on documentaries about the 2nd World War,"no more racism""no more holocaust" but history repeats itself over and over again,the Balcans,Middle East.ect etc etc. |
| Micrówave 16.01.2009 18:19 |
Mr.Jingles wrote: The numbers don't lie... link About 5% of Israeli casualities Vs 95% of Palestinian casualties. ...and people are still willing to justify Israel's actions? I don't think anyone has come on here and "justified" Israel's actions. But Israel's actions are not better or worse than Hamas. Both are causing damage. But not as much damage as Wikipedia. |
| Mr.Jingles 17.01.2009 00:26 |
Micrówave wrote:Mr.Jingles wrote: The numbers don't lie... link About 5% of Israeli casualities Vs 95% of Palestinian casualties. ...and people are still willing to justify Israel's actions?I don't think anyone has come on here and "justified" Israel's actions. But Israel's actions are not better or worse than Hamas. Both are causing damage. But not as much damage as Wikipedia. Nobody is saying Hamas actions are (if you may say) less worse than Israel's. I couldn't give 2 fucks if Hamas militants get blown up to pieces, they are a terrorist organization, so fuck'em! My concern is that Israeli military forces are killing far more civilians than members of Hamas. Do these children look like members of Hamas? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DeadGazagirlcloseday14.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Infantvictim.jpg |
| The Mir@cle 17.01.2009 04:33 |
And take a look at this.... But you're right Microwave. This has to be done to stop Hamas firing missles. [img=/images/smiley/msn/wink_smile.gif][/img] http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb1rmLAuvM8 I heard a professor saying that the best way to stop a war, is to react with less power than your attacker. That's the way to bring down the vicious circle. Like I said, reacting the way Israel does now only creates more hate which probably make people support Hamas even more. That's creatinga vicious circle of getting more and more voilence. |
| thomasquinn 32989 17.01.2009 06:41 |
Micrówave wrote:Mr.Jingles wrote: The numbers don't lie... link About 5% of Israeli casualities Vs 95% of Palestinian casualties. ...and people are still willing to justify Israel's actions?I don't think anyone has come on here and "justified" Israel's actions. But Israel's actions are not better or worse than Hamas. Both are causing damage. But not as much damage as Wikipedia. You've been trying to justify it for the whole duration of this topic. Whenever I pointed out a serious breach of international law, not to mention human decency, you jumped in and defended them (in the mean time spewing silly puns likening me to whatever terrorist you could think of at the time, but hey, that's beside the point). You try very hard to act moderate and acceptable, but you demonstrate time and time again that you are just a regular conservative with a cold war mindset, dividing the world into "good" and "evil" portions, and filing yourself under the "good". |
| The Real Wizard 17.01.2009 18:42 |
The headlines today read "Israel declares unilateral ceasefire," but they should read: "Israel negotiates ceasefire on their terms with Condolezza Rice while they still can." What impeccable timing. And the massacre continues... An Israeli tank shell hit a UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) school today killing two children and wounding 13 civilians. This is the second UN safe zone that Israel has attacked in three days. Let's see the apologists try to rationalize this one now. I have no doubt they will. |
| thomasquinn 32989 18.01.2009 08:02 |
The cease-fire was treated in the news media as a farce even before it came into effect (and rightly so, as it could never have held considering the circumstances). Olmert has said that "Israel has attained its goals in Gaza"; considering what has happened so far, I am not quite sure what those goals are, but they must be something along the lines of "recruiting more Palestinian youths for Jihadist extremism". Perhaps the top of the military establishment in Israel is afraid they won't have enough rock-throwers left to justify their ridiculous budget? Hopefully, the next Secretary of State will be a bit more critical in her treatment of allies when they go loco like this. Whatever happens, she'll have a hell of a job to patch this up. |
| Mr.Jingles 18.01.2009 19:23 |
ThomasQuinn wrote: The cease-fire was treated in the news media as a farce even before it came into effect (and rightly so, as it could never have held considering the circumstances). Olmert has said that "Israel has attained its goals in Gaza"; considering what has happened so far, I am not quite sure what those goals are, but they must be something along the lines of "recruiting more Palestinian youths for Jihadist extremism". Dead on! |
| Micrówave 20.01.2009 12:13 |
@ TQ No, I have not be defending anything. I am simply stating that BOTH sides are causing harm. YOU don't acknowledge the random missle launching... and if you do, you think that it's no big deal. By the way, according to the UN, 25% of the casualties are civilians. The way this thread has been going, the only people being hurt or killed are civilians... and that's just not true. Hamas makes it common practice to hold their meetings and rallies at schools and mosques, and even launch their missle attacks from there! Yet, no one mentions how wrong THAT is, to be putting those people in harms way. Then, when the school gets leveled, it's the horrible Israelis bombing children. |
| Poo, again 21.01.2009 14:49 |
Israel has no place in Palestine anyway. You don't see Italy claiming half of Europe because it was once Roman. As it happened thousands of years ago, it isn't a valid reason to invade another country. |
| L-R-TIGER1994 21.01.2009 14:56 |
Micrówave wrote: @ TQ No, I have not be defending anything. I am simply stating that BOTH sides are causing harm. YOU don't acknowledge the random missle launching... and if you do, you think that it's no big deal. By the way, according to the UN, 25% of the casualties are civilians. The way this thread has been going, the only people being hurt or killed are civilians... and that's just not true. Hamas makes it common practice to hold their meetings and rallies at schools and mosques, and even launch their missle attacks from there! Yet, no one mentions how wrong THAT is, to be putting those people in harms way. Then, when the school gets leveled, it's the horrible Israelis bombing children. I'm not defending any position either but you know that war is never the solution to anything. |
