YourValentine 29.07.2008 06:49 |
link The channel 4 film mentioned in this article was just shown on German TV. I can't believe it's legal to make little children fight with no protection for a paying audience. The programme showed how parents signed a disclaimer that the "children understood they could be seriously injured or killed in the fight". How sick is that. Cock fights and dog fights are illegal but now they make their own children fight. |
Ms. Rebel 29.07.2008 06:52 |
Alright, this is absolutely sick and fucked up. I'm moving to another planet. |
Garfield I. Uberson 29.07.2008 07:05 |
As long as money is the god, things like that (or even worse :-S) will keep on occuring... |
The Fairy King 29.07.2008 08:51 |
Damn... |
steven 35638 29.07.2008 09:03 |
Ms. Rebel wrote: I'm moving to another planet.May I come along too? |
magicalfreddiemercury 29.07.2008 09:08 |
I don't know which is worse - the parent who signs up their kid to fight like this or the adult paying to watch it. I arranged for my daughter to learn self-defense long ago. She was only 4 when I first signed her up for karate classes. The protective gear was heavier than she was! She learned to protect herself without the danger of being hurt. The younger children, like her, weren't even allowed to take part in the tournaments - for their own safety. There's a way to teach a child how to be smart and safe, and this is not it. The parents of these children need to be stopped before their children are seriously injured in this disgusting head-gear-free 'sport'. |
Winter Land Man 29.07.2008 09:34 |
The parents of those kids need a bullet through their head. Why the fuck would they make this kids do this? It's disgusting and horrible. |
andreas_mercury 29.07.2008 10:29 |
lol always put your money on the fat kid, i put fifty euros down on a fat kid once and i was not to be! disappointed. made a profit |
Freya is quietly judging you. 29.07.2008 10:58 |
Fucking sickening. |
Raf 29.07.2008 11:01 |
How can that be legal? Isn't there any kind of law at all that would make this illegal? |
Lady Nyx 29.07.2008 11:21 |
??? their soft spots arent even done forming!!! wtf? fucking stage parents to the extereme. poor kids!! |
Ms. Rebel 29.07.2008 11:30 |
Steven wrote:Only if your mama allows you to go.Ms. Rebel wrote: I'm moving to another planet.May I come along too? |
Micrówave 29.07.2008 12:15 |
All right!! My money's on the little scrappy one with the red shorts.
You know, this all comes down to interpretation. Is it sick? I don't know if that's the right word. Is it sicker than a 7 year old from Sierra Leone toting a machine gun with full knowledge of it's working parts? Sicker than a 10 year old Iraqi girl going to the police because her husband is raping her? (Dad had a verbal agreement with the husband not to touch her until she reaches a the right age)
And how do our customs look to other cultures? Now, MFM, I'm not picking on you... just an example.
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: I arranged for my daughter to learn self-defense long ago. She was only 4 when I first signed her up for karate classes. The protective gear was heavier than she was! She learned to protect herself without the danger of being hurt. The younger children, like her, weren't even allowed to take part in the tournaments - for their own safety. There's a way to teach a child how to be smart and safe, and this is not it. The parents of these children need to be stopped before their children are seriously injured in this disgusting head-gear-free 'sport'.1. So KARATE teaches young children to protect themselves? Really? I took Tae Kwan Doe with that same promise. Let me clue you in. You said yourself "without the danger of being hurt". Then there is no threat, you're not teaching anything but slow motion wrestling moves at this age. 2. Would a class in Household Dangers and Poisons be more effective in protecting your young one? 3. What are you protecting him from? 6 year old ninjas? a 5 year old samurai with a temper tantrum? And no matter how good your little one gets, he's not going to overpower an adult trying to cause him harm. 4. Wearing protective gear that is heavier than your own weight puts a tremendous strain on the bone structure, particularly in one body that is still developing. Are you not jeopardizing your child with years of back problems later in life? So I ask, is this really THAT bad or just another example of a misguided tradition? |
.DeaconJohn. 29.07.2008 12:20 |
I was flicking channels the other day and caught a bit of a documentary about this. I hadn't heard of it before, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. How the hell can this be legal? The documentary can be viewed in youtube; 6 parts starting with this one: link |
magicalfreddiemercury 29.07.2008 13:54 |
Micrówave wrote: And how do our customs look to other cultures? Now, MFM, I'm not picking on you... just an example.This is really THAT bad.magicalfreddiemercury wrote: I arranged for my daughter to learn self-defense long ago. She was only 4 when I first signed her up for karate classes. The protective gear was heavier than she was! She learned to protect herself without the danger of being hurt. The younger children, like her, weren't even allowed to take part in the tournaments - for their own safety. There's a way to teach a child how to be smart and safe, and this is not it. The parents of these children need to be stopped before their children are seriously injured in this disgusting head-gear-free 'sport'.1. So KARATE teaches young children to protect themselves? Really? I took Tae Kwan Doe with that same promise. Let me clue you in. You said yourself "without the danger of being hurt". Then there is no threat, you're not teaching anything but slow motion wrestling moves at this age. 2. Would a class in Household Dangers and Poisons be more effective in protecting your young one? 3. What are you protecting him from? 6 year old ninjas? a 5 year old samurai with a temper tantrum? And no matter how good your little one gets, he's not going to overpower an adult trying to cause him harm. 4. Wearing protective gear that is heavier than your own weight puts a tremendous strain on the bone structure, particularly in one body that is still developing. Are you not jeopardizing your child with years of back problems later in life? So I ask, is this really THAT bad or just another example of a misguided tradition? But to answer your questions... 1. Yes, Karate at that age indeed taught my daughter to protect herself. The best way to learn is without fear and that's how it was taught. She learned how to stand with a proper 'in-control' posture, and how to respond in a way that would call the most attention to those around her if she were grabbed by a stranger. She was taught to be cautious without being paranoid. Her confidence rose as did her awareness. It was only a beginning but blood and tears were not part of it, as they seem to be in this 'sport'. 2. There is no end to the amount of information we should/could give our children to keep them safe. Would what you suggest be more effective? In my life I've seen more instances of physical abuse than abuse by household chemicals, yet I've taught my daughter the dangers of those things as well as the danger of crossing the street without looking both ways, talking with food in her mouth, swimming without a buddy... 3. A child in a self-defense class is learning life-skills. Surely you know this. What my child learned at 4 was a mere stepping stone to what she learned four years later, and now four years after that. Can she be overpowered by some crazed kidnapper? I suppose it's possible, but her chances of escape are much greater because of the structured lessons she's learned throughout her life. 4. School backpacks jeopardize children's backs every single day for ten months out of each year. My daughter's Karate gear did not weigh more than her, it was an exaggeration meant to make a point. Apparently, it failed. |
its_a_hard_life 26994 29.07.2008 14:06 |
Sad stuff. :| |
Matias Merçeauroix 29.07.2008 14:56 |
They stole my idea :( Cheers, Hor |
steven 35638 29.07.2008 15:20 |
Ms. Rebel wrote:I don't need my mother's permission. I'm a rebel, just like you. ;)Steven wrote:Only if your mama allows you to go.Ms. Rebel wrote: I'm moving to another planet.May I come along too? |
Ms. Rebel 29.07.2008 15:31 |
Steven wrote:Oh, that's lovely.Ms. Rebel wrote:I don't need my mother's permission. I'm a rebel, just like you. ;)Steven wrote:Only if your mama allows you to go.Ms. Rebel wrote: I'm moving to another planet.May I come along too? |
steven 35638 29.07.2008 15:34 |
Ms. Rebel wrote:Thank you. :)Steven wrote:Oh, that's lovely.Ms. Rebel wrote:I don't need my mother's permission. I'm a rebel, just like you. ;)Steven wrote:Only if your mama allows you to go.Ms. Rebel wrote: I'm moving to another planet.May I come along too? |
Micrówave 29.07.2008 15:54 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: This is really THAT bad.Well, I don't think so, compared to the big picture of attrocity occuring daily. While you carefully answered those questions, you did not sell me. Karate at 4 did not teach her life lessons, you did. All that she got was to "kick and scream" if grabbed, other than that a defensive stance did not teach her a thing. And judging from your background, I'm sure she knew this already, yes? My point was that what you think is a perfectly normal activity for your child may look completely different to another's eyes. My arguments, however ridiculous they may be, are valid points. Living in Texas, I've seen small children that age roping cattle. Hooves flying in the air everywhere. Are these bad parents for teaching their children their lifestyle because you think it is unsafe for a child to be kicked by a horse or cow? What's next? Pop Warner football should be banned and the parents jailed for allowing their children to arm tackle another child? |
YourValentine 29.07.2008 16:42 |
There is huge difference in teaching kids self-defense or letting them fight for money - unprotected and against their wishes. Yes, there are child soldiers, abused children, there is child labour and all kinds of atrocities in this world. That is just not the topic of this thread. You can dismiss ALL cases of abuse by pointing out there are worse cases elsewhere in the world. That's just just killing the topic. It's sad when parents feel they have to teach their little kids self-defense, I hear that from people in big cities here, too. They teach the kids to fight back because of widespread bullying and physical violence in schools. There are also courses in kindergarten and preschool teaching children how to talk back to adults who touch them or chat them up. These courses are designed to help children to protect themselves against any kind of abuse by adults. The parents in the documentary, however, do not have the safety of their children in mind. They risk the health and life of their children to live out their sick pleasure of seeing them fight. I really don't think that can be legal. |
.DeaconJohn. 29.07.2008 17:18 |
Perhaps someone who has a way with words could set up a petition on link with a view to having this 'sport' banned. I'm not saying it'll make any difference but it would give people a chance to register their disgust. |
magicalfreddiemercury 29.07.2008 17:22 |
Micrówave wrote: Well, I don't think so, compared to the big picture of attrocity occuring daily. While you carefully answered those questions, you did not sell me.This sport vs. what we see in other countries - like what you mentioned in your first post - are so different I do not think they can be compared. The big picture of atrocities occurring daily that you refer to is terrifying and I wish we could change it all. So, yes, I absolutely agree with you that in the world-scheme of things, this is not as bad as that... but... this vs. Karate, which is how it seemed you compared it originally, makes this very bad in my opinion. Micrówave wrote: Karate at 4 did not teach her life lessons, you did. All that she got was to "kick and scream" if grabbed, other than that a defensive stance did not teach her a thing. And judging from your background, I'm sure she knew this already, yes?I disagree with the premise that Karate does not/did not teach life lessons. It's more than kick and scream. Not that I'd want someone else's child to be abducted, but a certain posture will, in effect, deflect the attention of a would-be abductor onto someone without that subliminal 'air' of confidence. I don't know if I'm saying it clearly, but I hope that makes some sense because it's true. As for my background, the postures were more cowering than defensive. That's why the image of that little girl crying is so upsetting to me. She wasn't being taught to protect herself, she was being shouted at from the sidelines, ordered to hit and be hit for the entertainment of others, and she was clearly frightened. It's a disgusting and disturbing image. Micrówave wrote: My point was that what you think is a perfectly normal activity for your child may look completely different to another's eyes.And I agree with that point. Micrówave wrote: My arguments, however ridiculous they may be, are valid points.It's not that your arguments are ridiculous or invalid - they're just different than mine and thus wrong. (kidding) Micrówave wrote: Living in Texas, I've seen small children that age roping cattle. Hooves flying in the air everywhere. Are these bad parents for teaching their children their lifestyle because you think it is unsafe for a child to be kicked by a horse or cow?The difference between children roping cattle or taking Karate classes vs. this head-gear-less activity is the gear itself. Are the children who are roping cattle not protected in any way? If not, then yes, I think it's wrong - not that the parents are teaching the children their lifestyle - but that they're not doing everything to ensure their children's relative safety while teaching it. If this sport had proper protective gear and a positive effect on the children - like what I saw for my daughter way back when she started Karate lessons - I doubt I would have posted a comment here. Parents of children in Karate classes pay small fortunes to watch their children fight/compete in tournaments. Is it any different than this sport? Yes - because of the reason for the lessons and the protective gear that must be worn while participating. Micrówave wrote: What's next? Pop Warner football should be banned and the parents jailed for allowing their children to arm tackle another child?Depends... what type of protective gear is involved? |
magicalfreddiemercury 29.07.2008 17:23 |
YourValentine wrote: There is huge difference in teaching kids self-defense or letting them fight for money - unprotected and against their wishes. Yes, there are child soldiers, abused children, there is child labour and all kinds of atrocities in this world. That is just not the topic of this thread. You can dismiss ALL cases of abuse by pointing out there are worse cases elsewhere in the world. That's just just killing the topic. It's sad when parents feel they have to teach their little kids self-defense, I hear that from people in big cities here, too. They teach the kids to fight back because of widespread bullying and physical violence in schools. There are also courses in kindergarten and preschool teaching children how to talk back to adults who touch them or chat them up. These courses are designed to help children to protect themselves against any kind of abuse by adults. The parents in the documentary, however, do not have the safety of their children in mind. They risk the health and life of their children to live out their sick pleasure of seeing them fight. I really don't think that can be legal.Wow. You said it so perfectly, and I went on and on... |
QueenMercury46 29.07.2008 20:23 |
andreas_mercury wrote: lol always put your money on the fat kid, i put fifty euros down on a fat kid once and i was not to be! disappointed. made a profitYou're a sicko. |
Music Man 29.07.2008 20:52 |
This could simply be a typical self-defense course, through the eyes of...a journalist. Now, journalism is very important and necessary, but one must take it all with a grain of salt: there's really no such thing as "journalistic integrity." Then again, it's bad enough that parents force their children to learn instruments and sports at such a young age, when they clearly are uninterested. This is simply a similar situation, although it is compounded by what they are learning implies. I am convinced of the virtues of self-defense (that name is misleading, as one learns far more than that). However, when a 5 year old is heavily involved in a sport, instrument, etc...you can be certain that it is to satisfy the will and needs of the parents, and not the child. I'm convinced this whole deal is definitely not as "disgusting" as it sounds - you can even tell that if you read between the lines. However, it's definitely not a good thing either. |
Raf 29.07.2008 20:58 |
Music Man wrote: Then again, it's bad enough that parents force their children to learn instruments and sports at such a young age, when they clearly are uninterested. This is simply a similar situation, although it is compounded by what they are learning implies. I am convinced of the virtues of self-defense (that name is misleading, as one learns far more than that). However, when a 5 year old is heavily involved in a sport, instrument, etc...you can be certain that it is to satisfy the will and needs of the parents, and not the child.I never took any kind of lesson because my parents forced me to. I started taking karate lessons at the age of 6 after asking my parents a couple of times to let me take it. When I was around 14, I got bored of it, and my parents let me quit, without any kind of harassement. There isn't a big gap between a 5-year-old and a 6-year-old, is there? The same happened with every other lesson I've ever taken in my life. Although my parents wanted me to take some of them, they never forced me to take any. They've only subscribed me to have lessons that I had asked for. |
Music Man 29.07.2008 21:45 |
Isn't that exactly as it should be? I would compare crying before a bout to groveling before a piano lesson. Now, I am aware they are very different, but the concept is the same. Parents should be more like Raf's: supportive of their children's desires...not their own. |
Matias Merçeauroix 30.07.2008 01:43 |
My father's never encouraged me to do anything. Everything I can do, I learnt it by myself. I'm gonna make my son fight for food, when he's a little child. He'll learn the ways of the world (????) Cheers, Hor |
john bodega 30.07.2008 01:57 |
Beatings! Woohoo! Maybe we ought to dust the Circus Maximus off a bit.... just in case. If the Romans had internet, they'd be us. Don't you forget it. |
YourValentine 30.07.2008 03:37 |
I think it's a good thing to let your child learn an instrument but it's certainly not good to force a 5 year old to learn to play although they do not want to and from an unfit teacher. It would not be a good thing if a parent forces the child to play piano because it was the childhood dream of the parent to become a world famous pianist and now the child is supposed to make that happen for the parent. I also think it's okay to let a small child learn Karate (although I personally would not choose s fighting sport for my child) - if the children enjoy learning it and if they are taught by a good teacher/in a good school. In a good Karate school children are taught more than just counting their belts: they learn respect, fair play and discipline. This is not what happens to the children shown in this film. Probably a mother who enjoys "spluttering other peoples' noses across their faces" is just mentally not fit to have the best interest of her child in mind. |
Micrówave 30.07.2008 10:55 |
Hey, a civilized debate. About time!
YourValentine wrote: It's sad when parents feel they have to teach their little kids self-defense, I hear that from people in big cities here, too. They teach the kids to fight back because of widespread bullying and physical violence in schools.Well, I have to strongly disagree with you on that. I think one of the things we have to teach our kids is toughness. It's inherent... Survival of the fittest. What, now that it's 2008, we should treat every kid as a special prize? You just dumb down the race doing that. Why do you think a career in the military is so useful to many young men and women? Can you imagine a "boot camp" or "traning excercise" using full protective gear? Our armies would get torn to pieces once they're out in the real world. Kinda like today's youth. The suicide rate climbs, violent crimes have increased, and the way each generation becomes less and less respective of the previous one continues. I don't think this Kickboxing spectacle is recognized as a sport, so signing a petition would do nothing. How about starting a petition to ban cat-tossing? But it would be interesting to look up those kids in 10-15 years and see where they're life has lead them. I would not be surprised to see them at the top of their respective fields, but then I remember where this story took place. |
YourValentine 30.07.2008 11:35 |
I have no clue what you are disagreeing on. That I find it sad that people feel it necessary to teach small children self defense? You cannot "disagree" with my feelings. Actually, I think society should protect our children. There should be more money in schools to avoid bullying and violence. Kids from poor families should get help from the community to enable them to make it in society with a good education rather than kicking and fighting. We could take the money from the ridiculous military adventures like Afghanistan and Irak which cost billions of tax money and do not get us anywhere. I think we should rise above the "survival of the fittest" concept if it means that you need to be a physical fighter to survive in a civilized society. After all, we do not live in caves anymore. If children do not respect other people we should not accept that as a given natural development but we should teach our children respect for other human beings. If you think that this is all hippie stuff - it's not. It's better to educate and teach young people than to throw half a generation into jail and pay for that. It makes more sense from every point of view - social, economical, you name it. |
magicalfreddiemercury 30.07.2008 11:52 |
YourValentine wrote: It's better to educate and teach young people than to throw half a generation into jail and pay for that. It makes more sense from every point of view - social, economical, you name it.This is absolutely correct but... unfortunately not enough of us follow this line of thought. Therefore, sadly, it's still necessary to teach our kids to defend themselves. The right balance of respect and self-preservation must be struck, however, otherwise those kids - and society - are short changed. In this documentary, it shows there's no balance. The parents take their kids our of school and travel uncounted miles to get those kids into a ring. They're crossing the line of healthy and competitive to obsessed and dangerous. Although, in all fairness, even in the Karate school my daughter attends - and indeed in dancing schools, gymnastics, etc. - there are stage-parents who push their kids to the limit. They don't know how to strike that balance so it becomes all or nothing, a parent's obsession a child either embraces or learns to despise. |
Micrówave 30.07.2008 12:14 |
YourValentine wrote: I have no clue what you are disagreeing on.That you find it sad we have to toughen up our children. And then, that you think EVERYONE ELSE is responsible for raising our children. Let's look: YourValentine wrote: There should be more money in schools to avoid bullying and violence.Well, in the US, voters decide if they want to raise their taxes to give more money to schools. They don't want to. And how is money going to solve bullying and violence? Private security for each student? Guess what? In my school, 20 years ago, there was a bully. In my Dad's school, there was a bully. In my Grandpa's school, there was a bully. And guess what? In adult life THERE ARE BULLIES!!! But you think we should somehow do away with them. Well what happens when you're 22 and facing your first bully? Not good. YourValentine wrote: Kids from poor families should get help from the community to enable them to make it in society with a good education rather than kicking and fighting.And how does this stop poverty? It would only enable the poor family to keep doing what they're doing for some more free gov'ment money. Some kids really are striving to get out of that life. Unfortunately, they get sucked into the gangs or are killed out of jealousy. YourValentine wrote: We could take the money from the ridiculous military adventures like Afghanistan and Irak which cost billions of tax money and do not get us anywhere.It's Iraq. While I may agree with you on Iraq, we can't just walk out of Afghanistan. Just ask Russia. That is a problem that will continue until someone figures out a way to stop fundamentalism... other than sending more and more troops. Ignore it, and within 10 years Europe gets nuked. I'm sorry, Barb, I like you and your country too much to allow that to happen. Go USA. YourValentine wrote: If children do not respect other people we should not accept that as a given natural development but we should teach our children respect for other human beings.Newsflash. Children do not respect other people. This is more obvious now than ever. So do we take away any level of competition making EVERY CHILD special? Where then, does the concept of "striving to be better" go? Right out the window. So you would rather a child be a "Clarinet Player" instead of "First Chair, All-state Clarinetist"? Well, then, why even practice? I'm just as good as the next student regardless, right? Next thing you know, we have a generation of slackers. Oops, too late... we do. YourValentine wrote: It's better to educate and teach young people than to throw half a generation into jail and pay for that. It makes more sense from every point of view - social, economical, you name it.Whoa. Half a generation is in jail? That's insane and completely impossible. We already have over-crowded jails. I would be interested to hear what you're going to educate and teach these kids that we don't already have in place... and how you intend on paying for this New Education. Sounds very Clinton-ish. |
Micrówave 30.07.2008 12:16 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: Although, in all fairness, even in the Karate school my daughter attends - and indeed in dancing schools, gymnastics, etc. - there are stage-parents who push their kids to the limit.Yes, my point. Where do we draw the line? At a certain activity? You can't do that. If a group finds something socially acceptable, you have to let them gather. If this were life threatening, the police would have stepped in a long time ago. |
YourValentine 30.07.2008 12:28 |
Yes, MagicalFM - I understand completely that a parent has the first obligation to look out for your own kid. That does not take the responsibilty away from society because there will always be 1. parents who do not care and 2. parents who are unable to give their children the start in life they need. If we want to break the violence routine we have to look after these neglected children and make sure they see another option in this life than hitting smaller and weaker people. @ Microwave - you do not seriously believe you have a say in how your taxes are spent? I am older than 22 and I still have to face my first bully. It's because I live in a socially peaceful environment and not in a violent slum or a city with 40% unemployment. You have to realize that the symptoms are not the cause of the problem. |
Lady Nyx 30.07.2008 13:49 |
Micrówave wrote:im gonna have to agree on a healthy portion of microwaves side here.YourValentine wrote: I have no clue what you are disagreeing on.That you find it sad we have to toughen up our children. And then, that you think EVERYONE ELSE is responsible for raising our children. Let's look:YourValentine wrote: There should be more money in schools to avoid bullying and violence.Well, in the US, voters decide if they want to raise their taxes to give more money to schools. They don't want to. And how is money going to solve bullying and violence? Private security for each student? Guess what? In my school, 20 years ago, there was a bully. In my Dad's school, there was a bully. In my Grandpa's school, there was a bully. And guess what? In adult life THERE ARE BULLIES!!! But you think we should somehow do away with them. Well what happens when you're 22 and facing your first bully? Not good.YourValentine wrote: Kids from poor families should get help from the community to enable them to make it in society with a good education rather than kicking and fighting.And how does this stop poverty? It would only enable the poor family to keep doing what they're doing for some more free gov'ment money. Some kids really are striving to get out of that life. Unfortunately, they get sucked into the gangs or are killed out of jealousy.YourValentine wrote: We could take the money from the ridiculous military adventures like Afghanistan and Irak which cost billions of tax money and do not get us anywhere.It's Iraq. While I may agree with you on Iraq, we can't just walk out of Afghanistan. Just ask Russia. That is a problem that will continue until someone figures out a way to stop fundamentalism... other than sending more and more troops. Ignore it, and within 10 years Europe gets nuked. I'm sorry, Barb, I like you and your country too much to allow that to happen. Go USA.YourValentine wrote: If children do not respect other people we should not accept that as a given natural development but we should teach our children respect for other human beings.Newsflash. Children do not respect other people. This is more obvious now than ever. So do we take away any level of competition making EVERY CHILD special? Where then, does the concept of "striving to be better" go? Right out the window. So you would rather a child be a "Clarinet Player" instead of "First Chair, All-state Clarinetist"? Well, then, why even practice? I'm just as good as the next student regardless, right? Next thing you know, we have a generation of slackers. Oops, too late... we do.YourValentine wrote: It's better to educate and teach young people than to throw half a generation into jail and pay for that. It makes more sense from every point of view - social, economical, you name it.Whoa. Half a generation is in jail? That's insane and completely impossible. We already have over-crowded jails. I would be interested to hear what you're going to educate and teach these kids that we don't already have in place... and how you intend on paying for this New Education. Sounds very Clinton-ish. the one thing that has been a vicious cycle (at least in the USA) is that parents dont raise their kids, expect the schools to do it, but crucify the schools if they do happen to 'disagree with their precious lil baby'. its incredibly selfish to think that your kid is the ONLY kid that matters, regardless of others. later, life gives them a few sucker punches and they dont know what to do. so physically and mentally/emotionally, kids should learn how to defend themselves, not have mommy and daddy do it. example (i might digress a little bit here) say your kid steals something, along with a bunch of other kids. its natural to defend your kid, right? well any decent parent would know 'hey, my kid did something wrong here, they should be punished!'...instead i see parents DEFENDING the wrong of their child. heaven forbid THEIR precious child does something wrong, but everyone else is at fault- in the first place, that kid should have had the balls to say 'no thanks im better than that' or own up to their bad decision, even if the parents have to guide it. this unfairness is taught to the kids until theyre adults, and go into the real world expecting people to be on their side. its either a terrible wake up call for them, or they throw their tantrums and get their way. its has caused a severe imbalence on our part. we as the US have become wayyyy too soft on our kids and it hurts them in the end. if anything, treat them like anyone else, and if they want ot be speical, they will do their damndest on their own, not by the influence of their stage parents. egos are meant to be bruised to become stronger, parents are there to back their kids up when theyre falling, to discipline them to stay in line, not play best friend, or use their children as prizes. anyway, i like what barb has to say, and in theory it would make sense, but in reality, this is how things are, at least in the USA. we need to be recharged in teaching our kids to be respectful of their elders and peers. it will never be 100% but there was once a time where it took a village to raise a child, and respect was INSTILLED in children. now if someone besides mama does it, its horribly offensive. but can you blame eveyrone else? with how parents are raising their kids these days, they are GOING to be judged. nobody is perfect, and parents should know its ok. *for the record i am not a parent, and i am not saying its easy to be a parent, nor am i saying that all parents are like this, but it has been proven to me, even in my own family, that this is how parents are raising their kids now, and it is getting on my nerves* and dont get me started on the 'disability' crap... |
magicalfreddiemercury 30.07.2008 14:06 |
Lady Nyx wrote: ...we need to be recharged in teaching our kids to be respectful of their elders and peers...It's really as simple as that and yet it's not happening. It's so easy to look at our own kids and think we're doing a bang-up job, teaching them right from wrong, etc. And yet, someone else's perception of our parenting skills - as Microwave said about this kick-boxing thing - might be completely different. I think I'm doing a great job with my kid - trying to teach her to care about people, animals, the environment and more. And yet, we're atheists, and so the backlash of that overpowers praise for anything else. There's no one right way, and while simple respect could do a lot to turn this world around, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Especially not in schools - not around here anyway - where no one respects anyone. They demand it of the kids and punish them when they don't receive it, but they never think to show the kids some level of respect either. Society in general seems doused with anger and self-absorption. I blame Bush. LOL. |
Lady Nyx 30.07.2008 15:18 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote:XDLady Nyx wrote: ...we need to be recharged in teaching our kids to be respectful of their elders and peers...It's really as simple as that and yet it's not happening. It's so easy to look at our own kids and think we're doing a bang-up job, teaching them right from wrong, etc. And yet, someone else's perception of our parenting skills - as Microwave said about this kick-boxing thing - might be completely different. I think I'm doing a great job with my kid - trying to teach her to care about people, animals, the environment and more. And yet, we're atheists, and so the backlash of that overpowers praise for anything else. There's no one right way, and while simple respect could do a lot to turn this world around, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Especially not in schools - not around here anyway - where no one respects anyone. They demand it of the kids and punish them when they don't receive it, but they never think to show the kids some level of respect either. Society in general seems doused with anger and self-absorption. I blame Bush. LOL. |
YourValentine 30.07.2008 15:35 |
Lady Nyx, you describe the problems very accurately, although I hope not ALL parents are like that - but what should be done about it? In my country schools are state business, not Federal business and we have very different solutions and very different approaches. For a long time the cities did not realize that education is not done at home as it used to be. They only start to realize that schools have to fulfill a lot of educational tasks that used to be naturally done in the families - mainly in big cities with a high poverty rate and high immigrant rates. Still, the majority of families here are normal people with no abuse issues who support the schools and teach their children the basic rules of decent behaviour. It's a minority in social hot spots who causes problem but we should not let the children be victimised. The state/community /schools have to make up for such educational deficits, it' in all our interest that neglected and disadvantaged children are not left behind. |
Micrówave 30.07.2008 17:01 |
YourValentine wrote: @ Microwave - you do not seriously believe you have a say in how your taxes are spent? I am older than 22 and I still have to face my first bully. It's because I live in a socially peaceful environment and not in a violent slum or a city with 40% unemployment. You have to realize that the symptoms are not the cause of the problem.Actually, yes I DO have a say in how my taxes are spent. You see, they have "bond elections" where taxpayers decide how much of their property taxes go towards Independent School Districts. Since I am a homeowner and pay taxes, that's me. Then when the property is assessed, and the new tax rate applied, my tax bill comes and I pay my property taxes. BUT, it's not over then. Next, I go to a hearing to challenge my property tax amount. Takes about an hour. For three years now, I have successfully had my tax amount reduced. Therefore, YES, I DO HAVE A SAY IN HOW MY TAXES ARE SPENT AND HOW MUCH. (Caps for emphasis, not trying to be GB here!) I don't believe I've ever heard of a city with a 40% unemployment rate. That's obviously not in America. I hope you are prepared for your first bully. Like what if you get mugged at gunpoint? Will you be prepared for a situation like that or completely freak out? Me, I've been trained for things like that. I give 'em my wallet, shoes, and anything else they want. Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like Utopia (Socially Peaceful Environment) YourValentine wrote: It's a minority in social hot spots who causes problem but we should not let the children be victimised. The state/community /schools have to make up for such educational deficits, it' in all our interest that neglected and disadvantaged children are not left behind.Oh my, that's completely the problem. The ol' "Not in my town" short-sightedness. Ask Parents in Columbine if their big mega city was ready for that high school shooting? This was a very VERY small town. It is DEFINITELY NOT the (1) State, (2) Community, or (3) Schools to make up for "educational deficits"... that's a parent's job, otherwise you have no reason being a parent. |
Micrówave 30.07.2008 17:19 |
But what about this:
A Fort Worth boy remained in critical condition today after a television fell from a dresser and landed on the 2-year-old's head, police said. The boy?s mom told police that she had been washing her shoe in the kitchen when she told her son to go watch television in the bedroom across the hall. She said she went to the bedroom after hearing a loud bang and found her son bleeding from his head and ears.So who shall we blame here? Should there be a law against placing TVs on dressers? Should there be a law against 2 year olds watching TV unattended? Would poverty have avoided this issue when the magazine (instead of TV) fell on child? No. This is not anyone's fault but Mom and Dad when they put the TV there. I'll bet they're busy safe guarding their house in the next few days. But it's time to stop looking for someone to blame and start "sacking up". |
AspiringPhilosophe 30.07.2008 18:07 |
I'd like to jump in here just a minute if I could. First off, Lady Nyx hit the nail on the head. Just ask anyone here in the US who has ever worked around small children, and they will tell you that the problem starts at home. The children are not being disciplined in any kind of meaningful way, and not being taught. The reasons? 50% Both parents have to work in order to survive financially and therefore aren't there mentally at the end of the day, even if they are there physically and 50% parents who just don't care. They are too busy trying to be their kids' friends to be parents. I'm not even a parent yet, but I can tell you that parenting is tough business. When your child does something wrong, it is the hardest thing in the world to discipline them and make them cry and scream at you that they hate you; it tears your heart out. So, many parents don't do that, preferring instead to reason with the child (thus the concept of time-outs, make your child think about what they've done). Problem is, that doesn't work. Reasoning with a child is like trying to reason with a pet; children simply do not have the mental capacity to understand reasoning until they are nearly teenagers. I'm not advocating for abuse, far from it. But you have to punish children when they do bad things in a way that makes them understand that what they did was wrong; they won't like you for it to be sure, but kids have the attention span of a fly, give them a few hours and they'll forget. You aren't doing your kids any favors if you are sheltering them and coddling them and fighting all of their battles for them, as previously pointed out. And, to a certain extent, it is healthy to not tell every child that they are the best at everything; as Microwave pointed out, all that does is dumb everything down. For example, I was in 2 marching bands at 2 different high schools in my life. The first one was top ranked, top flight in the state. And there was NO "just let everyone in". You had to audition, and prove that you were worthy. And if you got in and couldn't keep time or march on the same foot as everyone else or didn't want to devote the time to pre-class hour rehearsals and all weekend marching practice, our director wasn't afraid to show you the door. Sure, it may sound cruel, but it made us work harder to stay there, learning the value of hard work and it's rewards as we became better and better and got more first place finishes. The 2nd band had the "new mentality" of everyone is as good as everyone else, let them all play! Well, that band sucked completely. Couldn't keep time? That's fine, you are still in. Can't march in step? That's fine, you are still in. Can't play the music? That's fine, you are still in. And it was the WORST band I've ever seen in my life; an organized catastrophe at best and a total embarrassment. Guess which one I dropped out of like a hot potato? And guess which one still gives me feelings of accomplishment and pride to this day? About the money thing, it's not so much that Barb. The US has given a 5 fold increase in funding to education and schools in the last decade, and yet student performance continues to slump. Throwing money at the problem will not solve it. A community can pass a bond to give the schools more money, but once that is done your say over how the money is spent is next to nil, because the School Board distributes it. Where did most of the 5 fold increase in money go to? Not to education programs that's for sure; it went to salaries for teachers and paying health insurance costs for employees (which are skyrocketing here). More money goes into the system, but the same product comes out because all of the increase in money merely meets in inflation from year to year. |
Micrówave 30.07.2008 18:14 |
MasterHistoryGirl wrote: Reasoning with a child is like trying to reason with a pet; children simply do not have the mental capacity to understand reasoning until they are nearly teenagers.And then it all goes away COMPLETELY for another 5 years!!!! (Parents, I see you giving me that "knowing nod") This issue is very close to me, as my 13 year old prepares for 8th grade and life as a teenager. I hope I've done the right thing, and what I've done wrong I've learned from. It's nice to have such a spirited debate on here again, I was wondering if those days were behind us. Excellent points, everybody. |
Lady Nyx 30.07.2008 21:21 |
^^ agreed. im glad to see a good healthy debate. and im glad people agree with me for once, and gave me the time of day :) i like seeing this, and it helps me in knowing other people see it like i have too, and i dont feel so crazy. |
YourValentine 31.07.2008 03:29 |
@ Microwave: I live in a city with 200 000 people and I was never harrassed or molested in my life. Not in school as a child and not as an adult - ever. Agreed, I would not walk around in the "drug area" (around the main station) at 2 in the morning by myself but other than that I feel safe. The crime rate just is not so high here as in the United States, that's a fact and I don't know the reason. Parents do not watch over their kids when they play outside each and every minute. That does not mean that crimes don't happen but the idea that a whole nation has to learn self defense is very strange for me. We also do not have hand guns to protect ourselves or our homes. I do NOT say it's not my problem because it happens elsewhere, on the contary. I think we have a collective responsibility for all children in our country. As to the money issue: I am not saying that showering schools with money with no thinking does the trick. All I am saying is that society has to come up with a solution for children whose parents are unable (for whatever reason) to teach them the very basics like discipline, listening to teachers, come to school regularly and do the homeworks and most of all: not to bully other children. In fact these problems are mostly in cities with high poverty and unemployment rate(unemployment is a much bigger problem here than in the USA). Still most parents do teach their children in a normal way. Yes, I think education is the better and more human and more effective way to solve such problems than teaching everybody Karate. It needs a social effort (and money!) but it can be done. Apparently, we are discussing two different phenomena here: on the one hand overprotective parents who do not teach their children that it needs effort to succeed in life and who make their children unfit for life that way and on the other hand uncaring parents who simply neglect the children and make them unfit that way. Both extremes have to be challenged in school and in life or else we give up on our future. |
magicalfreddiemercury 31.07.2008 07:01 |
YourValentine wrote: Both extremes have to be challenged in school and in life or else we give up on our future.I love the way you describe your area. I WISH children here could go out and play without supervision or ride their bikes through the neighborhood like my generation did as kids. Maybe they can... the area I live is isn't really 'bad'. But we hear so much and realize no one else is going to look out for our kids that we can't take the chance. Used to be... there were neighborhoods with people who knew one another. The kids from the block got together and between the occasional check from each parent, those kids were safe. it was the 'it takes a village' mentality. Not now. Neighborhoods are more transient, less neighborly - at least where I live. Kids are on their own much more now than ever. They need to learn how to be safe and how to protect themselves at a much younger age than ever before... and not because of the majority but because of the random nut who decides to nab one here and there. As for the schools - I have the feeling the attitude toward school is very different where you live than here. School is not a place to learn manners and morals. First, they barely have the time or ability to teach academics. Second, whose morals are we going by? Parents as a whole would think - Who is going to teach my child what's right and wrong, and will what that person thinks is right coincide with my views? And if half the children are not receiving guidance or discipline at home, how much disruption will that create? How much time and attention will they take from the other children? And where does it stop? Teachers are not nannies, school is not day care. Kids are supposed to go there to learn history, science, math... to expand their minds. Not be taught the basics of proper behavior. Thats supposed to happen at home. Whether it does isn't the responsibility of the school system. I took my daughter out of school and am homeschooling her for this and other reasons. There is no 'control' in the schools. It's a village problem but the village elders are too busy working full time to deal with that problem... yet they do not want someone else to handle it for them. It's Catch 22 and our kids are the ones who suffer. |
YourValentine 31.07.2008 10:55 |
It's not all roses in my country, I hope I made that clear. But there seems to be a different idea of schools, in fact. We seem to have the same problem with children who come to school and are unable to concentrate, to follow the most basic instructions, to show up in time, bring the required books, do the required homework and such minimum skills. Severe cases are sent to a year of preparational school where such basics are taught. This problem is comparatively new in my country. Apart from that schools in Germany do have the task to educate children. I don't think there is much reason to be worried about taking education privileges away from the parents. Schools ideally teach children to share, to get along with other children from various background, to team up with other kids to achieve something, to solve conflicts in a non-violent way and the list goes on. Of course there are conflicts between parents and school but usually not about such educational issues. |
AspiringPhilosophe 31.07.2008 17:52 |
I really do wish that self defense was not something that some people would feel pressured to do. But it's reality; hiding from it does no good at all. The point with teaching a child Karate isn't to have them take down the attacker; as Microwave pointed out no child stands a chance against an adult attacker or kidnapper. The point of it is that the child will be able to raise a fuss. Kidnappers are not going to waste their time trying to take a child that is fighting back with them and throwing a major fit, because it raises the attention of others in the area. That's why the safest thing to do is simply to run away and yell and scream (and this works for young women as well), because if you are drawing attention to yourself and the situation it is almost certain that someone else will intervene, which is a risk to the attacker. I wish that we lived in a world where I could walk around anywhere without anyone, but that's being naive. When I was in Glasgow in December last year, my friend Jaap constantly walked with me everywhere, including walking me back to the place I was staying in after we were done hanging out for the day (Glasgow has a HUGE knife problem). Do I wish that wasn't necessary? Yeah. Was it slightly annoying that Jaap felt the need to do that? Sure, cause I hate to burden anyone. But he and I both recognized that it's reality. It's far better to be safe than sorry. And Barb I do agree with you that schools should help the situation. But schools can't do it all; there simply isn't enough time in the day. Their purpose is to educate, and they can't do that effectively if they are having to teach basic lessons that their parents should have taught them. It's when the schools started taking over some of that stuff that parents said, "OK, well they are getting it at school so there isn't a need for us to do it too." Sad, but true. |
Lady Nyx 31.07.2008 18:22 |
MasterHistoryGirl wrote: And Barb I do agree with you that schools should help the situation. But schools can't do it all; there simply isn't enough time in the day. Their purpose is to educate, and they can't do that effectively if they are having to teach basic lessons that their parents should have taught them. It's when the schools started taking over some of that stuff that parents said, "OK, well they are getting it at school so there isn't a need for us to do it too." Sad, but true.exactly. |
Music Man 31.07.2008 18:39 |
In the US, schools are governed at a municipal, state, and federal level, in that order. From my understanding, the federal level has very little to do with education in the United States, except with the occasional nigh-pointless standardization; the municipal level deals with the direction, operation, finances, and other relevant issues of the school (through school boards); the state level is generally for legislation and cohesiveness. Someone mentioned something about this earlier, and I felt it might be interesting to compare/contrast, or whatnot. Or maybe not. |
Sergei. 31.07.2008 22:38 |
Ms. Rebel wrote: I'm moving to another planet.Ugh, forget leaving the planet. *Packs suitcases* Let's all organise a mass exodus of the universe. |
john bodega 31.07.2008 22:47 |
Get the little shits working, that's what I say. |
YourValentine 01.08.2008 04:11 |
@ MusicMan - it's similar here: schools are state business, the states write the curriculae, employ the teachers and decide all legal issues. The cities provide the buildings, maintain them, and are responsible for the safety of the school etc. Cities can decide which kind of schools they provide in addition to elementary school (year 1-4)and "main school" (year 5-9, no higher education) which are mandatory. @ Maggie and Lady Nyx - we have a tradition of school responsibility for the well being of children. After the war all schools provided for a daily meal which was the only food most children were given on a regular basis. Many more children would have starved if it had not been for the school meals. I remember that my father, who started as a teacher in a little village in the 1950s, told us that he used to have a shower with the (male!!) children once a week because in the rural area most kids simply did not wash and the families had no bathrooms. It was my mother's job to take the girls to the shower :-) In my own childhood all children were still routinely checked by a dentist once a year and we still had school milk offered to poorer kids. I think it's not a bad thing when society ensures that children get what they need because it's not their fault when the parents are poor, uncaring or unfit parents. The children need to be looked after, it's a basic right. If they need to be made "school fit" and the parents do not do it, the school must come up with a solution. Luckily, most parents do educate their children. In the same way the schools must offer language help for children from immigration families which has been neglected for a long time because Germany expected people to come here to work and then leave. Only when we had over a million third generation children with poor language skills, the states started to recognize the problem. |
Music Man 01.08.2008 19:29 |
Ah, that is rather similar, the differences being that here schools are municipal businesses, that are merely governed by the state and (to a much lesser extent) the federal governments. |
Lady Nyx 01.08.2008 21:38 |
YourValentine wrote: @ MusicMan - it's similar here: schools are state business, the states write the curriculae, employ the teachers and decide all legal issues. The cities provide the buildings, maintain them, and are responsible for the safety of the school etc. Cities can decide which kind of schools they provide in addition to elementary school (year 1-4)and "main school" (year 5-9, no higher education) which are mandatory. @ Maggie and Lady Nyx - we have a tradition of school responsibility for the well being of children. After the war all schools provided for a daily meal which was the only food most children were given on a regular basis. Many more children would have starved if it had not been for the school meals. I remember that my father, who started as a teacher in a little village in the 1950s, told us that he used to have a shower with the (male!!) children once a week because in the rural area most kids simply did not wash and the families had no bathrooms. It was my mother's job to take the girls to the shower :-) In my own childhood all children were still routinely checked by a dentist once a year and we still had school milk offered to poorer kids. I think it's not a bad thing when society ensures that children get what they need because it's not their fault when the parents are poor, uncaring or unfit parents. The children need to be looked after, it's a basic right. If they need to be made "school fit" and the parents do not do it, the school must come up with a solution. Luckily, most parents do educate their children. In the same way the schools must offer language help for children from immigration families which has been neglected for a long time because Germany expected people to come here to work and then leave. Only when we had over a million third generation children with poor language skills, the states started to recognize the problem.as for your end, barb, that would be awesome if the ideals ended there. its hte fact that we expect the schools to RAISE our children, but if they actually do something to give them boundaries and discipline, its being "mean" to poor junior who was stepping out of line and hurting someone else. if schools here would do the same to help those in need, it would be great but the parents here are just so confused and/or lazy to allow that. the second their skills are questioned, is when they get their panties in a bunch. i feel like ill beat a dead horse if i continue. its great with what happens in your area, and if only more places were like that. but the american mindset is just so far removed from that. its the fact that parents EXPECT schools to do their dirty work and get offended when their ideals are differnet then theirs, rather than having the option given to those who need the chance. |
YourValentine 02.08.2008 05:03 |
Unfortunately, schools are chronically underfunded and cannot fulfill all their duties as they should. Too many social tasks are heaped on the schools without giving them the means to solve the increasing problems. Recently a school in Berlin declared defeat publicly and asked for help via the media. It was a desperate move and brought back the problems into public focus. They did get help but it was only one school from thousands. |
john bodega 02.08.2008 07:56 |
The thread title is bull twang. You can't 'make' a kid do anything. In 7th grade, I had this teacher who (apparently, by law) had the power to make me get up and do linedancing. LINEDANCING. They wanted me to LINE DANCE to "Walk of Life". Is there anything more fucking soulless? I sat my arse down and I didn't dance. He eventually pulled me off of my perch physically (that's apparently illegal, I've heard since) and tried to make me dance, but it didn't work and he got bored, and I sat down. It was the same in high school when people started threatening/assaulting me with stanley trimmers. They all thought if they pushed me around and started hacking bits off of my hair that I'd stop being me, or that they'd control me in some way. Well, nope - I wasn't playing. I think something that kids really need to be told is that if a thing is 100% bullshit... like "GO DOWN INTO THAT FOXHOLE, SOLDIER", or "PLEASE DON'T TELL MY WIFE YOU CAUGHT ME FUCKING MY SECRETARY", then you should bloody well ignore it. It's like in that Gandhi film where he goes "They may kill my body, break my bones; and then what will they have? They will have my dead body. Not my obedience!". Dunno, maybe I'm just obstinate. |