| Winter Land Man 28.07.2008 11:46 |
I've got a question for other song writers here... how do you write piano rock/pop songs? I mean, not love ballads or anything, but things like Don't Stop Me Now, or Warren Zevon's 'Werewolves Of London'???? I can't seem to write a song like that. I get no ideas really. When I write from a piano (which is too often), I end up writing a love ballad. So I end up writing from a guitar for any type of rock songs. Where do you get inspiration to write piano rock songs musically????? And I know I can change it from guitar to piano, etc. But I just want to come out with ONE song written on a piano that's not a love song. Piano rock from the beginning! |
| Winter Land Man 28.07.2008 15:04 |
test |
| Dan C. 28.07.2008 16:55 |
I find it hard to write a piano rock song without help from another instrument. I usually start with a drum beat... however, my songs aren't that great, so maybe you should take someone else's advice! |
| Winter Land Man 28.07.2008 16:56 |
Dan Corson VII: Season Is Over wrote: I find it hard to write a piano rock song without help from another instrument. I usually start with a drum beat... however, my songs aren't that great, so maybe you should take someone else's advice!I remember your songs, they are wonderful. |
| Poo, again 28.07.2008 17:25 |
No one can help you here Jake. This one has to come naturally, on its own. |
| Lady Nyx 28.07.2008 17:35 |
wrote: No one can help you here Jake. This one has to come naturally, on its own.true story. music comes to you, and these are the songs that so happen to find you. if you try to go outside of it, it just doenst work. ive tried. there have been tons of instances where i say 'i wanna write a ska song' and fail miserably meanwhile a blues song comes to me, and i put my soul into it. its whatever finds you. other than that i say listen to those kinda of songs for a long time and youll want to write one yourself. but youll find youll be doing something that has been done already. |
| Music Man 28.07.2008 18:53 |
Yes, it all comes down to you, but there are a few "templates" to get you started. I mean, what else is music theory but a template to guide you along? A very basic piano rock riff is to pedal a chord with a bass note, such as in "Let It Be," or a million other basic piano rock songs. Then you can just throw in some drums and guitars (for instance, using power chords, muted or otherwise), and you have a basic song structure. The thing about piano rock is that it doesn't have to be very technically involved, even if it sometimes is. As a guitarist, I look at a keyboard and immediately become confused - yet various piano rock formulas make a lot of sense to me, and I can even play many of them. Edit: I usually take the opposite approach of Dan - I start with a basic piano riff, and then throw in the drums (I feel it's a great way to build up the song), as the piano sounds very sufficient by itself, as opposed to a distorted guitar, which rarely does. Try both approaches and see what works for you. |
| steven 35638 28.07.2008 23:21 |
This is outside my writing style, since I tend to write odd things, such as experimental jazz-classical fusions (if that makes any sense). But, from what I gather and observe, I find that songs like Don't Stop Me Now are rythym driven. So, my advice would be this: First, attain the inspiration -- no good song can write itself. This is the most important ingrediant, it really is only up to the composer. It can't be found, it finds you. Secondly, choose the appropriate chord progression (off the top of my head, I suppose I-IV-V would be an appropriate choice). Thirdly, come up with a snappy rythym and work off of that. Let the vocals, if you have them, carry the melody perhaps. That's just my two cents. Everybody has their own way of writing -- that would be mine. I haven't gone to school to learn to compose just yet -- that'll be in the fall. |
| Sweetie 29.07.2008 05:00 |
You just sit there and it eventually comes to you. Improvise around blues scales? |
| andreas_mercury 29.07.2008 10:30 |
find you someone else to write the lyrics |
| FriedChicken 29.07.2008 11:20 |
Make a drum loop which suits the style and tempo you want to write a song in. Then take a tape recorder to your piano and improvise. |
| Micrówave 29.07.2008 12:20 |
wrote: No one can help you here Jake.Moved to Churning Out Hits Everytime forum. |
| Raf 30.07.2008 12:53 |
I don't mean to steal Jake's thread or anything, but I've never attempted to write rock'n'roll piano songs, so I read the advices posted here and went to a MIDI editor (I don't have a piano, only guitars). So I wrote the right-hand piano part using the piano keyboard from the MIDI editor, then, on a separate track, the left hand part. Then I saved it, and imported it on Guitar Pro 5, where I added drums, bass guitar and lead guitar. (I didn't "cheat" using the guitar fretboard from GP5 to edit the piano parts, I wrote them fully before sending them to GP, so that then I could use the fretboard only for the bass guitar and for the lead guitar, and also add things such as bends, vibrato, etc). It isn't supposed to be a full song or anything, just a "sketch" to check if I'm on the right way. So, I just used a generic 12-bar blues chord progression (in 4/4 though) in A, and for the lead guitar, just some fills using the pentatonic minor scale, simple licks similar to what I like to play when I do blues/rock'n'roll jams with other guys (which I haven't done in ages, and I miss it!). I exported it to WAV and then converted to mp3. I didn't want to export to MIDI because the bends, vibrato, etc would be gone. And sharing the Guitar Pro file would be pretty much useless, as I assume not many people here use that program. The file is only 1.3mb: link So, am I on the right way? Suggestions? Thanks in advance! And I apologise for the annoying MIDI sound. |
| thomasquinn 32989 31.07.2008 10:36 |
Music Man wrote: Yes, it all comes down to you, but there are a few "templates" to get you started. I mean, what else is music theory but a template to guide you along? A very basic piano rock riff is to pedal a chord with a bass note, such as in "Let It Be," or a million other basic piano rock songs. Then you can just throw in some drums and guitars (for instance, using power chords, muted or otherwise), and you have a basic song structure.You spell out one way, certainly, but you don't seem to fully realize its implications. The pedal-point you describe above will create a modal passage. Rock songs lend themselves very well to modal treatment, as the rock-style is itself largely folk and blues-derived*, in which modal music long survived. A song can then be extended by solos and/or melodies for vocals in a modal style over chordal vamps, the first of which you wrote by Music Man's suggestion. You can use one or more of the modes of your regular major (or melodic minor) scale. *(want to hear what the Blues originally sounded like? Find Leadbelly recordings, and that's pretty much it. He's the oldest blues musician we know of who has recorded, and even though his recordings themselves are of later date, they reflect early country blues, closely resembling white folk music, but with that blue touch of major/minor combinations). The thing about piano rock is that it doesn't have to be very technically involved, even if it sometimes is.Give this man a beer! That goes for most of music. Complexity usually arises by interplay between different instruments, rarely, except in solos, through insanely complex single parts. And remember: if you invented it, it'll *probably* be much more complex to anyone else than it seems to you. As a guitarist, I look at a keyboard and immediately become confused - yet various piano rock formulas make a lot of sense to me, and I can even play many of them.Rock doesn't essentially work differently for piano or guitar, as they both usually perform rhythm section work with occasional melody section interludes (sometimes more prominent in certain styles of rock). Rhythm section playing is never too fancy, and riffs around diatonic mutations of your chord (extensions, diminutions, suspensions and melodic alteration) work good for me. Edit: I usually take the opposite approach of Dan - I start with a basic piano riff, and then throw in the drums (I feel it's a great way to build up the song), as the piano sounds very sufficient by itself, as opposed to a distorted guitar, which rarely does. Try both approaches and see what works for you.Everyone likes to work differently. So long as you keep rhythm and melody in an ubpeat interchange, and spread them over several instruments, you'll get rock if you get the rhythm right, basically. |
| thomasquinn 32989 31.07.2008 10:37 |
Steven wrote: This is outside my writing style, since I tend to write odd things, such as experimental jazz-classical fusions (if that makes any sense). But, from what I gather and observe, I find that songs like Don't Stop Me Now are rythym driven. So, my advice would be this: First, attain the inspiration -- no good song can write itself. This is the most important ingrediant, it really is only up to the composer. It can't be found, it finds you. Secondly, choose the appropriate chord progression (off the top of my head, I suppose I-IV-V would be an appropriate choice). Thirdly, come up with a snappy rythym and work off of that. Let the vocals, if you have them, carry the melody perhaps. That's just my two cents. Everybody has their own way of writing -- that would be mine. I haven't gone to school to learn to compose just yet -- that'll be in the fall.Don't use I-IV-V unless your melody requires it! It's a dull progression with little interest, because it consists of the bare harmonic minimum. Try to use extensions and inversions at the very least, and chord substitution if you can (and it's really not that difficult). |
| steven 35638 31.07.2008 10:56 |
I thought that the use of extensions, inversions, and chord substitutions went without saying. The chord progression I suggested was just a starting place. I will admit that the chord progression, by itself, is quite dull -- it's been used too often. |
| thomasquinn 32989 31.07.2008 11:04 |
Steven wrote: I thought the use of extensions, inversions, and chord substitutions went without saying. Whenever I write I like to start with a basic chord progression, but then go off and do whatever the hell that pleases the ear.They never go without saying, as they form the fundamentals of your harmony! You can't use dominant seventh like a regular major, nor a major seventh like a regular major, and a six-four inverted chord is different from one in ground position. Inversions and extensions create the fundamentals for your melody, and the intervals between the different notes of the chord, because they vary with inversions, result in different harmonies requiring different treatment in orchestration, as well as more possibilities in further composition (you can see a Cmin7 like an Ebadd6, you know), and good voice leading is absolutely vital to effectively modulating, which you will want to use sooner or later. In short, inversions and extensions make up a significant part of harmony, and dominate all aspects of your song except MAYBE rhythm. |
| steven 35638 31.07.2008 11:07 |
I updated my post while you were writing. I'm not going to argue with you, since you obviously know what you're talking about (and I can't help but agree with you). I'm a self-taught composer who has much to learn. And thankfully, I was just accepted into a great music program and will start majoring in Music Education in the fall. Thanks for your input, ThomasQuinn -- it is appreciated. |
| thomasquinn 32989 31.07.2008 11:41 |
Always glad to share anything about one of the few topics I actually know something about ^^ |
| Lady Nyx 31.07.2008 11:50 |
XD oi, music theory hurts me head XD |
| Mab Meddows Mercury 31.07.2008 17:05 |
Well, I'm not a very technical pianist because I'm self-taught and I learned how to play the piano and figure out songs by learning chords first. I began writing a song on the guitar and I'm very self-conscious about my guitar-playing, so I transferred it to the piano and it actually sounds really nice. Perhaps you should try writing a song on the guitar or another instrument first, because--for me, at least--it's easier that way. :) Otherwise, you've just got to let it come to you. More often than not, it won't work if you say "I'm going to write a ballad" and it'll come out, if you know what I mean, unless you've already got the chords and melody in mind... |
| thomasquinn 32989 01.08.2008 06:44 |
The way I usually go about writing, is by just playing around on the piano or guitar until I get a fragment of melody, harmony or whatever that I like, usually the second. Working from a melody, I then add simple bass-notes to it, derive a harmony from there (sometimes requiring the replacement of the bass or melody notes I chose), all still very coarse. Then, I work on the voice leading, to make it fluent and/or disjunct in the right places. When working from a harmonic fragment, I start playing around with arpeggios and scalar/modal passages to come up with a melody, adding chromatic tones where I feel I need them. Alternatively, it should be relatively straightforward to start by composing a bass-line and working from there. This would be especially appropriate for rock-songs. |
| john bodega 02.08.2008 07:59 |
I've had to quit songwriting altogether. It's more or less because I'm utterly stuck on using a minor chord and then going to the next ... er, a semi-tone up... and as a major chord (an example would be Eminor, then Fmajor?). I don't even realise when I'm doing it, they just find their way in there. It sounds pretty, of course, but if you do it in every song then people are just going to throw vegetables. |
| thomasquinn 32989 02.08.2008 11:33 |
Zebonka12 wrote: I've had to quit songwriting altogether. It's more or less because I'm utterly stuck on using a minor chord and then going to the next ... er, a semi-tone up... and as a major chord (an example would be Eminor, then Fmajor?). I don't even realise when I'm doing it, they just find their way in there. It sounds pretty, of course, but if you do it in every song then people are just going to throw vegetables.I believe bebop did quite a lot of that, actually. |
| john bodega 02.08.2008 13:39 |
Well I wish I could get out of it already! It would probably benefit me to broaden what I listen to, in any event. Having solely Pink Floyd and Mahavishnu in my playlist will invariably have funny effects on me. |