| QueenZeppelin 29.04.2008 16:44 |
In some places, I see The Show Must Go On credited as being mainly Brian's work. In others, I see it being treated as one of the few true "group compositions" the band did. Well, lets look at the facts (as best I know them--correct me if I'm wrong). Deacon and Taylor came up with the chord sequence (which I take to be the famous opening synthline that underpins the song throughout...am I wrong?). Freddie and Brian jointly decided the theme and wrote the first verse together. Brian wrote the rest of the words and the melody. So, in your opinion, is this a Brian May composition (with input from the others) or is this a Queen composition? |
| Yara 29.04.2008 17:47 |
QueenZeppelin wrote: In some places, I see The Show Must Go On credited as being mainly Brian's work. In others, I see it being treated as one of the few true "group compositions" the band did. Well, lets look at the facts (as best I know them--correct me if I'm wrong). Deacon and Taylor came up with the chord sequence (which I take to be the famous opening synthline that underpins the song throughout...am I wrong?). Freddie and Brian jointly decided the theme and wrote the first verse together. Brian wrote the rest of the words and the melody. So, in your opinion, is this a Brian May composition (with input from the others) or is this a Queen composition?Hi! I'm afraid what I'm about to write is going to sound very idiotic, but it's my impression and I like to share it with people to learn with them. I see many questions like these, and they're interesting. I'm in no way qualified to comment on the specifics of the whole composition process, but Im sure other users can. What I'd like to add, judging from the little I know about Queen, mainly listening to the recordings, both studio and live, and trying to make sense of the question using my own experience and background, is that almost every Queen song is also a Freddie Mercury composition, though it doesn't work the other way around that usually: there are many Freddie's tunes that one can attribute only to him without sounding simplistic. Singing has a special quality to it, it's different from playing other instruments, as hard as it may be playing the piano or the guitar. The score, and the melody on it, doesn't mean anything, absolutely anything until a singer comes and sing it. It's also like that, to some extent, with regards to instruments: a Bach's score for, say, a partita, doesn't mean much if there's not a good interpreter to make it happen as music, but it does mean something, even if it's not much. When it comes to singing, the shades and nuances that it implies are so overwhelming that the notes on the score really don't mean anything until a singer comes about and say, well, this should be sung like that: la-la-dee-dee-deee... It sounds silly, because I'm silly. But I ask you to abstract from my silliness. Brian always said that he was astonished to see what "Save Me" had become in Freddie's voice. It was another song alltogether, and he does seem to be sincerely in awe while watching Mercury sing it in Montreal. The question pops up, and it's an usual question: "Well, IS THIS MY SONG? I CAN'T BELIEVE IT WAS SO GOOD (OR BAD)!". Freddie Mercury alway had his input on the way the song should be sung; the way the song is sung, however, affects the way the song is played, and that's why the whole question of authorship is pretty delicate. Even if Brian had conceived TSMGO all by himself, including melody and lyrics, Freddie's singing has such an uniqueness to it that the final result was, in my humble opinion, not what Brian had in mind, it was something different. I think he started to write FOR Freddie, and then, regardless of authorship, Freddie's ipso facto part of the composition, for better or for worse!!!!! So Freddie is always there, in the forefront, in the background, he's there, he's spin or his touch makes the song sound different than it sounds, for example, in PR's voice. I'M NOT COMPARING BOTH, PLEASE: it's just that one can see how the very same song can be delivered in very different ways according to the singer's take on it. I DON'T want to contribute to the Freddie is God movement because, as good as he was, he also had clear shortcomings as a singer, and in no way, I think, he should be considered the standard against all singers, past and present, should be measured. There are a lot of singers out there, even nowadays, that have many qualities that Freddie didn't have, and the opposite is also true. There's no God in m |
| Major Tom 29.04.2008 17:54 |
Let´s give this one to Freddie for his marvelous vocals. |
| QueenZeppelin 29.04.2008 18:35 |
I just want to say, I think this post was absolutely beautiful, and incredibly well-thought out and well-stated. You shouldn't be so apologetic! I wish everyone added as much to this board as you did.
I particularly liked this:
Yara wrote: What I'd like to add, judging from the little I know about Queen, mainly listening to the recordings, both studio and live, and trying to make sense of the question using my own experience and background, is that almost every Queen song is also a Freddie Mercury composition, though it doesn't work the other way around that usually: there are many Freddie's tunes that one can attribute only to him without sounding simplistic.I often think the same thing. It dawned on me while thinking about the Freddie Mercury Tribute Concert, and how there seemed to be less songs actually written by Freddie than one would expect. And it finally occurred to me one day, that really, Freddie made every one of those songs--written by him or not--very distinctly his. Take I Want to Break Free...a John Deacon compsotion...NO ONE can deliver that song the way Freddie does. He adds so much pathos, irony, camp, indignation, and emotion into that song, all very distinctively him. So I find myself very much agreeing with you on that count! Any other thoughts, my friends, on whether this should be a "Brian" composition or a "Queen" composition? |
| Daniel Nester 29.04.2008 19:36 |
I agree, QueenZeppelin. This is one of the most beautiful posts I've read on QZ. Bravo. |
| princetom 29.04.2008 19:38 |
@QueenZeppelin i don't think the chord sequence is by john nor roger. it's clearly written by a guitarist's point of view. try to figure out the chords on your 6-string and you'll see! |
| Winter Land Man 29.04.2008 19:40 |
It's mainly a Brian composition, but Brian did say, when he wrote songs (even ones such as Fat Bottomed Girls), he wrote it, with Freddie in mind, sort of like looking through Freddie's eyes. |
| teleman 29.04.2008 21:46 |
It's an outstanding song even with Paul Rodgers singing it. I'm still inclined to think it is first a Brian song but would never have become what it is without Queen and Freddie's voice took it places unimagined. |
| QueenZeppelin 29.04.2008 23:06 |
princetom wrote: @QueenZeppelin i don't think the chord sequence is by john nor roger. it's clearly written by a guitarist's point of view. try to figure out the chords on your 6-string and you'll see!Prince Tom, Hmm, it always struck me as more Brian than Roger or John. But link and link credit the chord sequence to Roger and John. Any other sources/information out there on whether it was Brian's chord sequence or Roger/John's? |
| Serry... 29.04.2008 23:50 |
It was Roger's/John's. Confirmed by Brian. |
| August R. 30.04.2008 02:41 |
princetom wrote: @QueenZeppelin i don't think the chord sequence is by john nor roger. it's clearly written by a guitarist's point of view. try to figure out the chords on your 6-string and you'll see!Both Roger and John are very capabale guitarists. Any one of them could have come up with that sequence with guitar (or with keyboards, it really isn't that tricky.) BTW, I've never seen TSMGO being credited to Brian alone in any official album. (But then again, I haven't bought all these Stone Cold Greatest Hits X compilations.) Where does this information come from? |
| john bodega 30.04.2008 03:44 |
Brian took the ball and ran with it. Couldn't be simpler. |
| olly1988 30.04.2008 04:14 |
If Brian really did write this like people say, it shows only too well unfortunately how much his songwriting has gone downhill of late. |
| john bodega 30.04.2008 05:28 |
olly1988 wrote: If Brian really did write this like people say, it shows only too well unfortunately how much his songwriting has gone downhill of late.I didn't realise he'd released enough songs 'of late' for us to get a real indicator... |
| princetom 30.04.2008 06:56 |
Hi there thx for the links... seems to me John/Roger think more like guitarists than i assumed... :-D "oh, how wrong can you be..." thanks for bringing me some unknown fact and revealing my mistake. sorry for misleading here :-( |
| Sebastian 30.04.2008 07:38 |
> In others, I see it being treated as one of the few true "group compositions" the band did. It's actually 'the only one', rather than 'one of the few'. > Deacon and Taylor came up with the chord sequence (which I take to be the famous opening synthline that underpins the song throughout...am I wrong?). Indeed. > Brian wrote the rest of the words and the melody. And the middle-eight sequence, which is a rather clever one. David Richards reportedly suggested some keys too. > The score, and the melody on it, doesn't mean anything, absolutely anything until a singer comes and sing it. For that matter, we could also say that a guitar score or melody doesn't mean anything, absolutely anything, until a guitarist comes and plays it. Same with other instruments, or production, mixing, engineering, publicity... > i don't think the chord sequence is by john nor roger. Well... Brian, who was there, credited it to them. So there you go. > it's clearly written by a guitarist's point of view. 1. Both John and Roger could play (and compose on) guitar. 2. It was composed in synths, which both John and Roger could play as well. > BTW, I've never seen TSMGO being credited to Brian alone in any official album. Which is a very good point indeed: recent releases (e.g. GVHII and an issue of the musical in Spain) credit both 'I Want It All' and 'Headlong' just to Dr May. OTOH, 'Scandal' and 'Show Must Go On' keep the 'Queen' credit. I suppose it's not coincidence. Anyway, the whole discussion is ambiguous: there's no absolute right or wrong here. It'd be ridiculous to think that May alone is the author, since the sequence (which represents the basis for intro, verses, choruses and solos) was composed by somebody else; but it'd also be unfair to credit it to Roger and John only since melody and lyrics were both chiefly Brian's. BUT... think about 'I Want to Break Free', 'Moonlight Serenade', 'Why Don't We Do It in the Road', 'Rock and Roll', 'Day Tripper', etc... all using the same chord sequence for all or most of the song content. Should we consider all of them to be actually composed by whoever first did the 12-bar thing (let's leave it annonymous)? After all, even if the progression is the same, the melody is different, so we can credit those pieces to John Deacon, Glenn Miller / Mitchell Parish, Sir Paul McCartney, Bonham/Jones/Page/Plant, John Lennon, etc... OTOH, 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door' has loads of versions where they create different solos, bass-lines, keyboard parts... but the song is still Bob Dylan's since the chord sequence used for all of that is his. |
| Daniel Nester 30.04.2008 09:48 |
I don't think we're talking about official credit along the lines of song royalties for The Show Must Go On. It is interesting from a musical-forensic point of view. One thing that's interesting to me is that the song does hold up with almost anyone singing it. From American Idol to Shirley Bassey to Moulin Rouge to Paul Rodgers. It's becoming a standard. You can't even say that of "Bohemian Rhapsody"--who's covered that song and not totally embarrassed themselves? |
| PieterMC 30.04.2008 10:28 |
A quote from Brian from 1994 "'The Show Must Go On' came from Roger and John playing the sequence and I started to put things down. At the beginning it was just this chord sequence but I had this strange feeling that it could be somehow important and I got very impassioned and went and beavered away at it. I sat down with Freddie and we decided what the theme should be and wrote the first verse. It's a long story, that song, but I always felt it would be important because we were dealing with things that were hard to talk about at the time, but in the world of music you could do it." |
| Boy Thomas Raker 30.04.2008 11:14 |
"I often think the same thing. It dawned on me while thinking about the Freddie Mercury Tribute Concert, and how there seemed to be less songs actually written by Freddie than one would expect. And it finally occurred to me one day, that really, Freddie made every one of those songs--written by him or not--very distinctly his. Take I Want to Break Free...a John Deacon compsotion...NO ONE can deliver that song the way Freddie does. He adds so much pathos, irony, camp, indignation, and emotion into that song, all very distinctively him." That's outstanding QueenZeppelin. One of the thing that the newbie or casual fan (and that doesn't make them any less of a fan than hardcore collectors or people into Queen from day 1) tend to miss now that Freddie's gone is the fact that he made every song his. Rod Stewart has done tons of covers that people think are his originals, which is a great honour as it shows that you've put your stamp on something. The argument for Paul Rodgers being good for Queen is that he has a better overall voice or a better live voice than Freddie did, which may certainly be true. But vocal power aside, Paul Rodgers is not a patch on Freddie Mercury when it comes to making a song your own. A recent reviewer of the C-lebrity track loved Paul Rodgers voice, calling it one of the greatest in rock. I whole heartedly agree. They also said in a positive manner that he belts it out in the style of a blues pub singer where Freddie was a dripping in champagne type of singer. Everybody talks about Frediie's voice, which was amazing. But his singing and phrasing and interpretation of how to deliver a line is unmatched by any rocker ever, IMHO. BTW, Treasure Moment did not have a gun to my head while I typed the last part ;) OH yeah, SMGO? Queen song. |
| brENsKi 30.04.2008 11:50 |
i think we have to distance ourselves a little from sentiment - the meaning of the song and also from what the singer actually added. NONE of these attributes make a difference to who composed it. Let's look at a litle reality here and try to apply it to other bands. there are many who and zeppelin tunes credited their guitarist....that despite (on occasion) significant input from vocalist and other band members. the songs are still creidted to the main composer.... take the beatles - nearly ALL of their songs are credited Lennon/McCartney - but any beatles fan will tell you which beatles songs were written by which of the two writers - not that many were joint compositions.... fact is, that apart from a bit of contribution from Roger and John, and some lyrics in the first verse - TSMGO is a Brian May tune - despite what the credit says and despite what his or our sentiment would rather we believe. |
| Boy Thomas Raker 30.04.2008 12:12 |
Interesting POV Brenski. My only comment would be that the opening chords are tremendously important to the song as they form the basis of the song body. Maybe if they weren't there, we would have ended up with the guitar part from "The Guv'nor" or "China Belle", and the song wouldn't have nearly the gravitas it does from the existing opening passage. |
| brENsKi 30.04.2008 14:11 |
ok...but how far do you take this theory? The Beatles "a day in the life" is credited lennon/mcCartney, but beatles fans know it's lennon's song. the middle section ("woke up fell outta bed, dragged a comb across my head") is clearly macca's work...and helps to define the song....but it's still lennon's song. yes it's a co-write (as were most beatles' songs) but the bulk of the song is lennon's. same applies to TSMGO - it's credited "queen". but it's mainly Brian's work. when i first heard this song all those years ago - i thought it sounded like freddie's work - but facts are facts - it's mainly Brian's work - despite the "queen" co-writing credit used on all of the later songs. |
| drwinston 30.04.2008 16:50 |
Sebastian wrote: > In others, I see it being treated as one of the few true "group compositions" the band did. It's actually 'the only one', rather than 'one of the few'.I'm not sure what you mean here. There is the well known footage of all four collaborating on One Vision, and while others obviously had a main composer, I would think there are others that all four collaborated on. Are you sure about "the only one" claim? I'm not trying to bust your balls, I'm just curious. |
| QueenZeppelin 30.04.2008 19:03 |
Sebastian wrote: > In others, I see it being treated as one of the few true "group compositions" the band did. It's actually 'the only one', rather than 'one of the few'. > The score, and the melody on it, doesn't mean anything, absolutely anything until a singer comes and sing it. For that matter, we could also say that a guitar score or melody doesn't mean anything, absolutely anything, until a guitarist comes and plays it. Same with other instruments, or production, mixing, engineering, publicity...2 points 1.) I was thinking that maybe it was the only co-composed one, but Innuendo came to mind. Didn't that germinate from a May/Deacon/Taylor jam session and then was picked up by Mercury, who wrote the rest of the music and then most of the lyrics (which was finished off by Taylor)? That, to me, seems to count as a group composition, with Freddie maybe taking slightly more credit for it the way Brian would take slightly more credit for SMGO. Someone mentioned One Vision--Deacon was largely absent for the writing of that song. It was mainly the work of the other three (May with the riff, Taylor with the words and melody, Freddie helping with lyrics, speed of song, delivery of riff--more a co-arranger). As for your second comment, I think Yara was not referring to singing in a technical fashion or that it should qualify as a writing credit, but more in an abstract, je-ne-sai-quas sort of way. Because certainly, each singer can give a COMPLETELY different feel and character to a song. Just listen to "I Want to Break Free" by Freddie and then by Paul Rodgers. :) |
| Sebastian 30.04.2008 21:16 |
> I don't think we're talking about official credit along the lines of song royalties for The Show Must Go On. I know, but for both IWIA and 'Headlong', the rule was broken in recent releases and both songs now appear credited to Dr Wig. 'Scandal' and 'TSMGO', OTOH, are still credited to 'Queen', which MAY suggest that those are much more collaborative (even if in both cases Brian is still the main author). > NONE of these attributes make a difference to who composed it. I completely agree. > take the beatles - nearly ALL of their songs are credited Lennon/McCartney - but any beatles fan will tell you which beatles songs were written by which of the two writers - not that many were joint compositions.... Indeed. Same for the 'Queen' credit: more a commercial thing than anything else. > that apart from a bit of contribution from Roger and John I completely disagree there: that 'bit of contribution' represents the harmonic basis for 90% of the song (i.e. verses, choruses, intro and solos). Beatles' 'We Can Work It Out' and 'Eleanor Rigby' (both with uncredited input from Harrison) are different cases. > There is the well known footage of all four collaborating on One Vision John is sitting there, but he's not actually collaborating. > I would think there are others that all four collaborated on. Songs where all four had input - surely. Songs we could consider to be a four-way split: none. Even in the case of 'Show Must Go On', I'd calculate it as this: Lyrics - 90% B, 10% F Chords - 45% R, 45% J, 10% B Melody - 100% B Form - 100% B Which adds up to 75% Brian, 11.25% Roger, 11.25% John and 2.5% Freddie. Far from a four-way split. > but Innuendo came to mind. Didn't that germinate from a May/Deacon/Taylor jam session and then was picked up by Mercury, who wrote the rest of the music and then most of the lyrics (which was finished off by Taylor)? Fair enough. I stand corrected. > That, to me, seems to count as a group composition, with Freddie maybe taking slightly more credit for it the way Brian would take slightly more credit for SMGO. Not quite: 'Innuendo' hasn't got 90% of its sections based over the same progression. > Because certainly, each singer can give a COMPLETELY different feel and character to a song. Same for instrumentalists, arrangers, orchestral conductors, producers, etc. > Just listen to "I Want to Break Free" by Freddie and then by Paul Rodgers. :) Listen to classical guitar pieces played by two different performers: they're very different. Or the same symphony by the same orchestra but with different conductors. Or 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door' by Bob Dylan (in the studio), by Bob Dylan (live), by GnR (in different tours and with different line-ups), by Leningrad Cowboys, by Avril Lavigne... each version gives the song a COMPLETELY different feel and character - yet it's still got Bob as its sole composer. So, IMO, it should be the same for 'TSMGO': even if Freddie's performance is the song's most celebrated feature (and with good reason), he was by far the least involved in its actual creation. |
| Winter Land Man 30.04.2008 21:52 |
Sebastian wrote: > I don't think we're talking about official credit along the lines of song royalties for The Show Must Go On. I know, but for both IWIA and 'Headlong', the rule was broken in recent releases and both songs now appear credited to Dr Wig. 'Scandal' and 'TSMGO', OTOH, are still credited to 'Queen', which MAY suggest that those are much more collaborative (even if in both cases Brian is still the main author). > NONE of these attributes make a difference to who composed it. I completely agree. > take the beatles - nearly ALL of their songs are credited Lennon/McCartney - but any beatles fan will tell you which beatles songs were written by which of the two writers - not that many were joint compositions.... Indeed. Same for the 'Queen' credit: more a commercial thing than anything else. > that apart from a bit of contribution from Roger and John I completely disagree there: that 'bit of contribution' represents the harmonic basis for 90% of the song (i.e. verses, choruses, intro and solos). Beatles' 'We Can Work It Out' and 'Eleanor Rigby' (both with uncredited input from Harrison) are different cases. > There is the well known footage of all four collaborating on One Vision John is sitting there, but he's not actually collaborating. > I would think there are others that all four collaborated on. Songs where all four had input - surely. Songs we could consider to be a four-way split: none. Even in the case of 'Show Must Go On', I'd calculate it as this: Lyrics - 90% B, 10% F Chords - 45% R, 45% J, 10% B Melody - 100% B Form - 100% B Which adds up to 75% Brian, 11.25% Roger, 11.25% John and 2.5% Freddie. Far from a four-way split. > but Innuendo came to mind. Didn't that germinate from a May/Deacon/Taylor jam session and then was picked up by Mercury, who wrote the rest of the music and then most of the lyrics (which was finished off by Taylor)? Fair enough. I stand corrected. > That, to me, seems to count as a group composition, with Freddie maybe taking slightly more credit for it the way Brian would take slightly more credit for SMGO. Not quite: 'Innuendo' hasn't got 90% of its sections based over the same progression. > Because certainly, each singer can give a COMPLETELY different feel and character to a song. Same for instrumentalists, arrangers, orchestral conductors, producers, etc. > Just listen to "I Want to Break Free" by Freddie and then by Paul Rodgers. :) Listen to classical guitar pieces played by two different performers: they're very different. Or the same symphony by the same orchestra but with different conductors. Or 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door' by Bob Dylan (in the studio), by Bob Dylan (live), by GnR (in different tours and with different line-ups), by Leningrad Cowboys, by Avril Lavigne... each version gives the song a COMPLETELY different feel and character - yet it's still got Bob as its sole composer. So, IMO, it should be the same for 'TSMGO': even if Freddie's performance is the song's most celebrated feature (and with good reason), he was by far the least involved in its actual creation.Where is Headlong credited to Brian??? I know he wrote it, but on which release is it credited to him? |
| QueenZeppelin 30.04.2008 23:08 |
Sebastian wrote: > > Because certainly, each singer can give a COMPLETELY different feel and character to a song. Same for instrumentalists, arrangers, orchestral conductors, producers, etc. > Just listen to "I Want to Break Free" by Freddie and then by Paul Rodgers. :) Listen to classical guitar pieces played by two different performers: they're very different. Or the same symphony by the same orchestra but with different conductors. Or 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door' by Bob Dylan (in the studio), by Bob Dylan (live), by GnR (in different tours and with different line-ups), by Leningrad Cowboys, by Avril Lavigne... each version gives the song a COMPLETELY different feel and character - yet it's still got Bob as its sole composer. So, IMO, it should be the same for 'TSMGO': even if Freddie's performance is the song's most celebrated feature (and with good reason), he was by far the least involved in its actual creation.I entirely agree with you. I was just speaking up for Yara, as I think she is in agreement with you as well, but was just talking about the emotional content of a song. I certainly believe that a guitarist can bring as much to a song as a singer can, and each can change the song dramatically...but that doesn't make them co-composers. So yes, I'm in total agreement. |
| Sebastian 01.05.2008 07:28 |
As reported by a visitor to my website (I think), in a recent 'We Will Rock You' (the musical) release in Spain (they include or included 'Headlong' in that country's version), 'Headlong' is credited to May. |
| john bodega 01.05.2008 08:08 |
Wasn't it a potential Brian solo song before Queen grabbed it? (Same with "I Can't Live With You"). |
| Sebastian 01.05.2008 12:53 |
Indeed. |
| We Are The Champions 06.05.2008 17:19 |
olly1988 wrote: If Brian really did write this like people say, it shows only too well unfortunately how much his songwriting has gone downhill of late.Crap!! This is one of the best songs they've ever done!! Really brilliant song with a great chord sequence on the keyboard. As a keyboard player myself, I have the music for this! Simple but very effective sequence. The keyboard chords dominate this and is instantly recognisable after the first few Bm chords. Will be a joy to play on my new Roland when I get it. Freddie had a habit of writing songs with flats rather than sharps - B and E especially - not typical of him IMHO. |
| Sebastian 06.05.2008 23:56 |
<marquee>We-Are-The-Champions</marquee> wrote:I think they mean that, after writing a masterpiece like 'Show Must Go On', Brian's more recent creations are enormously disappointing (e.g. 'I'm Scared', 'The Call').olly1988 wrote: If Brian really did write this like people say, it shows only too well unfortunately how much his songwriting has gone downhill of late.Crap!! This is one of the best songs they've ever done!! |