| mystic_rhythms 19.04.2008 19:23 |
link So the judge ruled that the children stay in custody of the court. Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest. *sigh*...only in Texas lol -=Brian=- |
| magicalfreddiemercury 19.04.2008 20:40 |
mystic_rhythms wrote: Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest. *sigh*...only in Texas lol -=Brian=-I'm afraid this won't put anything to rest. It's only the beginning. Those children will need years of therapy - as will the young mothers (also children). The state will have to pay for all of it, and will have to determine paternity of those children since most of the mothers were underage when they had them. I'm sorry to say, this isn't even close to being put to rest. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 19.04.2008 23:26 |
Indeed...this is going to be a mess that is going to take YEARS just to figure out. Never mind providing the therapy and de-programing it's going to take to orient these women and children back into society. This is going to be a giant mess that is likely will never be solved completely. |
| *Rain Must Fall* 20.04.2008 00:37 |
There is going a long,hard road and I pity the children. |
| YourValentine 20.04.2008 06:42 |
It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you. Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely. |
| Winter Land Man 20.04.2008 06:46 |
YourValentine wrote: It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you. Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 20.04.2008 07:09 |
Jacob Britt wrote:Religious freedom trumps everything else, it seems. This cult bought acres and built a soaring temple. Immediately, they and theirs were off limits. Raiding them - despite probable cause - is against the law because it infringes on the group's religious beliefs.YourValentine wrote: It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you. Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too. In this case, a 16 year old is said to have called police saying she'd been forced to marry a 50 year old man who then beat and raped her. Her child, it's said, was born when the girl was just 15. They have yet to find this girl and there are now accusations that police and Child Protective Services (CPS) fabricated the entire story in order to justify the raid. If this girl is not located or if the accusations are proven accurate, this whole case is destroyed. They cannot investigate anything because it was all uncovered illegally. That means the children will go back to their families and the families will no doubt go back to their abusive practices. Not only will the state be unable to stop it, but it will no doubt be sued by the 'church' for millions of dollars in damages. And win. The worst part is that these kids have been told contact with the outside world will damn their souls for all eternity. I'm glad they're separated from family so the healing process can begin, but I'm so sad for them, too. The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine. There are so many people in various communities ready to adopt those children should it come to that. It's heartwarming to see the outpouring of love, but I wonder why it happens only when things get as bad as this. |
| mystic_rhythms 20.04.2008 10:14 |
yeah, you're right. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I meant that the major court case is over. And a crazy one at that. Imagine this: hundreds of lawyers, a courtroom jampacked with litigators and spectators, dozens of reporters camped outside...I'm surprised the judge didn't commit herself to the local mental asylum. I would have lol -=Brian=- |
| YourValentine 20.04.2008 10:30 |
I am all for religious freedom but even religious schools must be supervised by the state. It cannot be that there are parallel socities and children are alienated from the society they will spend their whole life in. Parents can get involved in any school by being a member of parent advisory boards or parent committees but to let a cult remove their kids from the normal education system and let them isolate the kids from normal contact with people of other belief is very hurtful for the development of children and should not be tolerated. Now the damage is so much worse and now the jurisdiction has to deal with problems that could have been easily avoided. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 20.04.2008 11:50 |
The Amish live in their own communities, have their own schools, laws and medicine. Their children are raised in that society without interaction (or much, anyway) with the rest of society. It seems it's the same for this perversion of the Mormon faith (not saying the Amish are perverse in any way), just closed off from the rest of society. Children do have to be registered with the school districts in which they live, but do not have to be registered in a school. Like my daughter - who is homeschooled. They really have no idea what, if anything, I'm teaching her. But parents have first right over their kids unless there is proof of misdeeds and the process to expose those misdeeds is carried out legally. This raid may not have been legal and so the rest of the case(s) may have to be dropped. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 20.04.2008 13:06 |
This is a very unique case. Magical is right. Because of the number of private schools, charter schools, colloqiual schools and the option of home schooling in the US, children do not have to be in a public school. But they do have to be registered. Typically, communities like this will either build their own schools or home-school their children. Usually this means that the school cirriculum which the schools provide to the state have to match the basic standards of state public schools, but these are pretty low and once you meet these basic requirements anything else is fair game for being taught. Because this is a religious community, the government is hands off; more so than an ordinary citizen. The government ideas that Barb talks about happen in the US to when a normal citizen with children were to withdraw from the community. But when a community has separated itself and registered as a religious community, the government's hands are tied. In this case, the government cannot do anything at all until they get a warrant, which in a religious community means the complaint has to come from the inside. Complaints from the outside mean essentially squat. Now once they get a warrant to search the community (again, must be based on a credible complaint from the inside of the community) they can go in just like anywhere else. (They also need a warrant to go into a regular house BTW) The authorities were well aware of this community...they had been watching it for two years. They knew that illegal activity (polygamy and underage marriages) was going on, but they could not do anything about it since it was a religious community and they could not go in until there was a complaint from the inside. This call from the girl was what they needed to be able to get a warrant to get in. Now that they've found underage girls who are pregnant, there is clearly illegal activity going on. But if they can't find the girl who made the call or find out it was faked, even though they have clear evidence of something illegal taking place, nothing can be done because the warrant was invalid. |
| StoneColdClassicQueen 20.04.2008 14:26 |
This is just too depressing.. I first heard about polygamy when Warren Jeffs was featured on America's Most Wanted. I couldn't believe other girls were forced to marry at such a young age!!! It just goes to show how ignorant I was. I can't say much about this particular case. I just hope everything works out for these families and I hope the girl who called is safe. I hope they find her. |
| YourValentine 20.04.2008 14:40 |
I understand that the state could not do anything about the polygamy and underaged marriages (which are probably not legal, anyway), they can hardly spy into private bedrooms. I don't understsand how a religious cult can separate itself from a community to an extent that children are not registered in their local community (i.e. getting a birth certificate with date of birth, name, name of parents) and do not get a part of the community automatically including infancy health care and other benefits. I know about the Amish but in Germany their schools would be subject to state control, all schools must fulfill certain criteria even though a religious school may put more emphasis on religious education. If the school does not comply the children must attend a state school, that's the law. Home schooling is not an option. I know that magical home schools her daughter and one of our former QZ chat room operators was home schooled, so it's probably okay when the parents are open minded and provide for intellectual variety but basically a child needs the school as a place of social learning as much as for aquiring knowledge. Certainly a religious cult should not have this option. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 20.04.2008 16:18 |
I fully agree with you. There was a woman who works at the bakery I used to work at, and she "home schooled" her daughters. But soon she ran out of time to do it, so she put her daughters into public schools. Well, that wound up being a giant mess because the girls had to be started 2 grades back because the mother had not taught them anything other than "arts and crafts" time and the youngest daughter couldn't even read. Not to mention the socialization trouble those children hand....Home schooling is not necessarily a bad option, if the parents are qualified to be able to teach. But if they aren't...well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. To be honest I'm not sure how these groups operate as far as birth and things. If these children are born on the cult grounds in their own medical center (a distinct possibility) then they wouldn't ever be registered with the government at all in all likelihood. If they are born at an outside hospital, they are given a birth certificate and what not, but you don't have to put the name of the father on the certificate if you do not tell them who it is; that is one of the problems they are dealing with right now with all of these children...they can't figure out who belongs to who. Religious liberty is the freedom that is most strongly identified with in the US, especially by the fathers of the country. They purposely gave groups all of these rights because they were all about religious liberty. As this case demonstrates, it does certainly have its problems. But there is no way any lawmaker in the US would try to create laws that would trample religious liberty...their political career would be very short and ineffective. Everything this group does is illegal. Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states, US territories and at the Federal level. Texas even changed their marriage laws so that no one under the age of 16 can get married even WITH parental consent as a direct result of this sect. So underage marriages are all illegal. But because this is a recognized religious group, they are given the freedom to do whatever they want until they either become a direct threat to the outside community (killing people who live around them or something like that) or there is a complaint made from inside. I hope they find the girl who made the call, but I have a bad feeling she won't show herself to authorities, and the whole case will fall apart. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 20.04.2008 18:40 |
As for homeschooling... ;-) Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations. It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do. As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional. I know that was off topic, but I had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-) |
| Janet 20.04.2008 18:44 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: As for homeschooling... ;-) Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations. It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do. As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional. I know that was off topic, but i had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-)I know several children that are currently being homeschooled and they are very bright and well spoken, and very outgoing and social. They are involved in social activities with other homeschooled children and I believe this experience has enriched their lives. I don't know how many of you remember Miss James who was a long term member here, but she was homeschooled and today she is a bright, articulate, intelligent young woman and doing very well in life. :-) |
| AspiringPhilosophe 20.04.2008 20:38 |
Indeed Magical and Janet! Homes chooling can be a wonderful thing. Even though I do not have children yet, I can tell you after teaching the products of our public schools for the last two years, the option of home-schooling any children I have is starting to look darn good! At least I could ensure they are safe, getting a good education and getting all of the benefits that you both mention. I simply meant to point out that home schooling is a double edge sword...see the example of the woman I worked with. Her children couldn't read because her idea of "home school" was a constant barrage of arts and crafts! Not to mention her kids how have a lot of "behavior issues" because they do not know how to socialize since she kept them locked up at home all the time. Like I said, if it's well regulated (as it appears to be in New York) and the parents are qualified, there are no problems with it. It's when it's not well regulated it becomes an issue, which as Magical points out is more common in the Bible Belt (which I'm starting to believe Michigan is part of the longer I live here). I surely didn't mean to cause anyone offense and apologize if I did! |
| YourValentine 21.04.2008 09:23 |
Yes, I already mentioned Magical and Allie - I am sure responsible parents can do a good job in home schooling. In my opinion it should still be the very last resort because school is such a vital task for the whole society and it should be supervised by the state and it should be constantly improved for all children. We have various public and private school, run by the state, private institutions, churches. All schools need to be approved by the state (they are also mostly funded by the state) and it would be totally impossible that a church removes their children from state supervision to an extent as happened in Texas. I really think we have such different roots - The USA was more or less founded by people who left their home country to be able to exercise their religion with no interference by the state while here in Europe schooling is so much a social issue because education used to be a privilege for the rich people and later it was a place where children were brainwashed by the Nazis. To guarantee a good education for everyone and to avoid any kind of ideolical indoctrination of the children is the common goal of the state and the parents these days. We still have religion taught in schools (which is wrong in my opinion)but most religious teaching happens in the churches - where it belongs imo. Also, the idea that new born children are not registered as citizens in their community is very strange to me. A child his entitled to citizen rights and protection and has to be registered. There are still enough parents who are ignorant and don't know about support and infancy health care they are entitled to. Also, registration helps to avoid child labor and ensures that all children go to a school by the age of 6. |
| Winter Land Man 21.04.2008 10:16 |
One thing I don't get which is also what YV thinks (I think), is how the hell did this go on for so long without anyone noticing? These people were on that land away from everyone, and they had to have been registered citizens. They must of been total recluses if the children weren't registered citizens when they were born. There must be things like this elsewhere too. It's really disgusting. |
| Maz 21.04.2008 11:22 |
A lot of things can happen when you live in the middle of nowhere. And for officials to investigate, they need warrants with probable cause. If the cult keeps to itself and doesn't talk to authorities, then how do officials get to investigate? The only reason this broke was because someone called in, though now they're saying the original call was a hoax. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 21.04.2008 11:38 |
Well spoken again Maz. Pleasure to have someone like you on the thread! @ Jacob...the authorities were not unaware of the existence of this group of people. If you look at the arial photos of the church they built, no one for MILES would be unaware of this group. The problem was they did not have the right to go in. They are a religious group, and as long as they are not causing harm to the outside community, the hands of the authorities are tied. Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard). |
| Erin 21.04.2008 11:40 |
HistoryGirl wrote: It's when it's not well regulated it becomes an issue, which as Magical points out is more common in the Bible Belt (which I'm starting to believe Michigan is part of the longer I live here). I surely didn't mean to cause anyone offense and apologize if I did!My aunt, who lives in Alabama, decided to home school her daughter. I believe it was because she was getting teased in her Christian private school. :-S Anyway, I have to wonder what kind of education my cousin is getting. My aunt is in no way qualified to teach. Plus, she also has a 1 year old daughter to look after. I think they only spend 2-3 hours a day in "school." Apparently, they do have to go to some homeschool meetings every so often. I don't know whether they check on the child's progress or what in those meetings. I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow. |
| Maz 21.04.2008 11:51 |
Different states have different regulations governing home-schooled kids. I'm sure Magical and explain better what kind of regulations she has to follow and how they determine if a student is receiving a proper education. Unfortunately, some states (including the one I presently reside in) do not require any oversight or regulation into homeschooled children. Parents are essentially free to do whatever they want, which for some means very little. And I'm just trying to keep the intelligence going, Maggie :) |
| magicalfreddiemercury 21.04.2008 13:43 |
HistoryGirl wrote: Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard).What of the "lost boys", as they're called? The young boys in the cult who are turned out onto the streets because they're seen as competition to the elder men - as in the gorilla world, though I dare say the gorilla world seems more civilized than this. They're no longer part of the community but they do have first-hand information about what goes on in there. I wonder... does anyone know if their statements can be used to investigate this sect? |
| magicalfreddiemercury 21.04.2008 14:01 |
Erin wrote: Anyway, I have to wonder what kind of education my cousin is getting. My aunt is in no way qualified to teach. Plus, she also has a 1 year old daughter to look after. I think they only spend 2-3 hours a day in "school." Apparently, they do have to go to some homeschool meetings every so often. I don't know whether they check on the child's progress or what in those meetings. I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.The interesting thing about homeschooling is indeed the amount of work that can fit into a small amount of time. When you're working one-on-one, you have a much better sense of what the child learns quickly and what the child needs to work with more. We can finish an entire day's lessons in three hours at home, whereas, in school, the same work could take double that. The children don't have to wait for a bell to tell them to start, they don't have to pack up their books and travel the halls to the next class. But neither can they can't hide, hoping someone else gets called on because they don't know the answer. ;-) They can break when they're tired and pick it back up later when they're refreshed. And, they can break up their learning with real-life activities rather than sitting for hours with their heads in a book. About being qualified to teach... most people aren't. However, (most) parents are responsible for teaching their children the basics - walking, speaking, table manners, car safety, counting, coloring. Parents teach that, parents who are not trained teachers. It (usually) comes naturally. And as a child's curiosity soars, parents, somehow, keep up. The best part about working with my daughter this way as opposed to the other way (public schooling) is that I know what she's working on and can be reintroduced to it as she learns it for the first time. It's amazing what conversations occur because of her lessons - especially science and social studies. Parents didn't just appear as grown ups with kids. They went through school, studied and learned most of what their children are learning now. The hardest thing for a homeschooling parent, I think, is saying to their child, "I have no idea what that means." But then they follow it up with, "Let's find out." I'd like to think the religious fanatics who homeschool their children by only teaching them 'facts' from the bible, etc, are few and far between. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's the case, though I've yet to meet a family like that. The support group I belong to withdrew their children from school in order to give them a more thorough and rounded education. As homeschooling becomes more mainstream, I think that concept of homeschooling will take a firm hold and muscle out the more reclusive type who are now hiding in plain sight. Just for clarity, here's a great video regarding an issue at the top of many homeschooling parents' lists - link |
| AspiringPhilosophe 21.04.2008 18:03 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote:@ Maz....and I appreciate that. There are so few of us around these days it seems. I only wish I could talk to you more :-)HistoryGirl wrote: Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard).What of the "lost boys", as they're called? The young boys in the cult who are turned out onto the streets because they're seen as competition to the elder men - as in the gorilla world, though I dare say the gorilla world seems more civilized than this. They're no longer part of the community but they do have first-hand information about what goes on in there. I wonder... does anyone know if their statements can be used to investigate this sect? @ Magical....that's a good question actually. I'm not entirely sure if there are any lost boys associated with this particular cult. From what I understand, they moved to Texas to escape the authorities in Utah, who were getting close to breaking them. This particular sect is supposed to be hand-picked by Warren Jeffs; the BEST of the BEST when it comes to loyalty. There may not be any lost boys who can give information on this specific sect, though I know they use their statements in Utah against some of the sects there. Of course the problem is, these lost boys have also been indoctrinated to not trust the outside world, being told the leaving the community is a sin worse than murder (according to an article by the Associated Press on them). But they are often told that they can return if they come back with a wife. So how many of them would be willing to talk to the authorities about what is going on is a major factor, since most of them probably are just trying to cope, find a woman they can take back to the community and resume their lives in the world they know. I'm guessing not many of them are willing to talk, either out of the eventual goal of returning to the community or out of fear that they'd implicate themselves or their families in illegal activity if they were to talk. The identification issue is going nuts....apparently they are now cheek swabbing all the children so they can run DNA tests to figure out who belongs to who. They still don't even know yet if they can hold these kids as the phone call giving them the warrant may have been a hoax, and now they are taking DNA from the kids (likely without parental permission since they don't know who the parent's are). This isn't going to go down well. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 22.04.2008 06:46 |
HistoryGirl wrote: So how many of them would be willing to talk to the authorities about what is going on is a major factor, since most of them probably are just trying to cope, find a woman they can take back to the community and resume their lives in the world they know. I'm guessing not many of them are willing to talk, either out of the eventual goal of returning to the community or out of fear that they'd implicate themselves or their families in illegal activity if they were to talk.I hadn't thought of it this way but it makes perfect sense. Just as we would resist attempts by them to be sucked into their world, they would do so in ours - more so for them because they fear their souls are at stake. How awful for them. |
| The Real Wizard 10.05.2008 02:21 |
Sorry for jumping on this one late. I check this section rarely these days!
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.I saw one of the youngsters interviewed on TV... a girl of 16 or 17. Great head on her shoulders, and totally had come to terms with what she went through... not traumatized at all. She gave off a vibe that she knew there was an alternative from day one, and stayed positive. I hope there are more like her. Erin wrote: I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.He was illiterate, so he probably couldn't have counted to 5. There, a mathematical connection! |
| magicalfreddiemercury 10.05.2008 07:44 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: Sorry for jumping on this one late. I check this section rarely these days!Personally, I wish you'd stop by here more often, Sir GH.magicalfreddiemercury wrote: The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.I saw one of the youngsters interviewed on TV... a girl of 16 or 17. Great head on her shoulders, and totally had come to terms with what she went through... not traumatized at all. She gave off a vibe that she knew there was an alternative from day one, and stayed positive. I hope there are more like her. I also wish I'd seen this interview. If her reactions are real, then I'm with you and hope there are more like her. However, if she was one of the girls who'd been beaten and raped, then I can't help but doubt her apparent composure. Intellect tells an abuse survivor they've made it, they're out of that situation and can move on. The problem with that is their psyche isn't given a chance to address what happened so it doesn't truly heal. Often, it's a facade, just another way in which the human spirit fights to survive. While I hope that's not the case here, I can't help but wonder. |
| john bodega 10.05.2008 10:37 |
Better late than never. |
| Miss Multiples aka colfarrell1 10.05.2008 12:46 |
In response to the ones who posted about the "Lost Boys",I have met them and they all have a very good mind set. After they were moved from Africa,many of them came to US. The boys spoke at my old church and were members of it. The boys/young men endured many horrendous events but they are normal functioning guys. They work,they go to school and they lead normal lives. Just because they endured what they did ,doesn't mean they can't be normal functioning people in today's society. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 10.05.2008 13:24 |
colfarrell1 wrote: In response to the ones who posted about the "Lost Boys",I have met them and they all have a very good mind set. After they were moved from Africa,many of them came to US. The boys spoke at my old church and were members of it. The boys/young men endured many horrendous events but they are normal functioning guys. They work,they go to school and they lead normal lives. Just because they endured what they did ,doesn't mean they can't be normal functioning people in today's society.Ummm....you are a bit confused. You are talking about the Lost Boys of the Sudan. What we are talking about is the "Lost Boys" who grew up in the Mormon communities in the US (they therefore are US citizens) and are removed from the community once they hit puberty because they represent a "threat" to the older men of the Mormon community, who want the young brides for themselves. It's an easily understood mistake, but you should check to make sure you are on the same page as the rest of the conversants before posting a response. |
| Miss Multiples aka colfarrell1 10.05.2008 14:26 |
I read what they were talking about..The title 'Lost Boys' does apply to both,doesn't it? Both groups were boys who were alone and only had each other for protection. What I said still applies,A person can have unjust things happen to them but they can rise above and lead a normal life. I know that from personal experience. |
| Yara 10.05.2008 14:29 |
Erin wrote:I think I'd get along well with your aunt. lolHistoryGirl wrote: It's when it's not well regulated it becomes an issue, which as Magical points out is more common in the Bible Belt (which I'm starting to believe Michigan is part of the longer I live here). I surely didn't mean to cause anyone offense and apologize if I did!... I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow. Though I don't incorporate Jesus into the math lessons because, well, I'm Jewish. lol But since maths is probably one of the disciplines I'm most skilled in, and since my whole religious background always encouraged learning and studying, religion actually helped me go through my school years, including the study of the Torah and the prayers and all this nonsense. ;-)) "Religion helped me" means: the practices and costumes and uses associated with my religious background helped me. I'm not saying I was actually rewarded or helped by dear, good old HaShem. But, if I did receive any help there, well, thanks again, Lord. :-))) lol I don't know, now trying to behave like an adult, I think this option for homeschooling is so wonderful. I wished there were something like that here! It's a way parents can also help their children scape from private or public institutional shortcomings - lack of quality, corruption, lack of proper values that parents deem important, and so on. I think, however, that these ideas are always great in abstract, but when it comes to applying them, there are always a lot of shades: good effects can be pointed out, but also not so good, or outright bad effects too. The fact that the communities you guys are talking about and which I don't know absolutely anything about - degree of financial and political and maybe judicial autonomy, the basic profile of the families, and so on - are involved in all this, just make matters more delicate and difficult to analyse, I think - it's a reality, well, maybe it's a reality very peculiar to the U.S. [teenager pretending to know anything about the world] :-)) |
| magicalfreddiemercury 10.05.2008 15:12 |
colfarrell1 wrote: I read what they were talking about..The title 'Lost Boys' does apply to both,doesn't it? Both groups were boys who were alone and only had each other for protection. What I said still applies,A person can have unjust things happen to them but they can rise above and lead a normal life. I know that from personal experience.Of course they can rise above and lead normal lives. It wasn't implied they couldn't... or if it was, I highly doubt it was meant as an insult (which is how I think you may have taken it). Even survivors of the worst abuse can rise above that abuse - think holocaust survivors. But the trauma remains part of who they are, so to come out of a traumatic existence saying they're fine and can move on without addressing what happened to them is denial in its saddest form. Like you, I too know this from personal experience. Sadly, I think many people do. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 12.05.2008 15:51 |
What you are saying, Cindy, is accurate; in an oblique way. The major difference of course being that many of the "Lost Boys" (Who don't use this name themselves BTW, as the Lost Boys of the Sudan do) from these Mormon cults don't want to live a "normal" life and overcome adversity. Because to them, a normal life is going back to the Mormons, and living that lifestyle. Normal is based on perception; if you want to get philosophical about it. The discussion that we were having concerning these boys was not philosophical. The question was raised of why these boys didn't offer to come forward and help law enforcement with their investigations to stop the abuse and shut down these cults. The reason they don't help and come foward is because they are taught from infancy to view anything outside of the cult as Satanic, and that if they leave the cult they are lost forever in the eyes of God, since salvation lies soley to those members of the cult. Therefore, all they want to do when they are removed from the cult by the older men is to find a bride (the condition they must meet for acceptance back into the community) and return to the community. If they cannot find a bride, they often don't go back to the cult. But they do not go to the police either, for fear of incriminating their family or themselves in illegal activity, not to mention the whole "You will go straight to hell if you do" thing. This "overcoming adversity" thing you speak of does hold true, but the roles are flipped. To the oustide, the example of them overcoming diversity would be to tell on their family and friends, stay strong through it to stop the abuse, and go on to lead a normal, productive life. But that is not their perception of normal; that is not their perception of overcoming the obstacles. Their example of overcoming the obstacles is to find a bride willing to come back to the Mormon community, bring her back, be accepted back into the community and again gain salvation for their soul in this manner. THIS is the obstacle THEY want to overcome. This is why most of them do not come forward and identify themselves to law enforcement. There are no judgements made that they can or cannot overcome the obstacles in their way; the question is what obstalces and how do they perceive them to overcome them. So be careful when you draw comparisons between things just because they have similiar titles. Just because they are referred to as the same thing doesn't mean the goals are the same. *BTW, this is not meant to belittle or insult you. I say this in a purely conversational and non-inflammatory manner* |
| Micrówave 12.05.2008 17:02 |
MasterHistoryGirl wrote: Their example of overcoming the obstacles is to find a bride willing to come back to the Mormon community, bring her back, be accepted back into the community and again gain salvation for their soul in this manner.TIP FOR FUTURE MORMON COMPOUNDERS: Mail-order brides (non-English speaking) No one would've found out a thing!!! Seriously though, I think we'd be pretty amazed at how quickly these people will be able to integrate back into society. The ones with the most problems just MIGHT be the ones who go thru all that mind-job therapy crap that's out there. The interview that Sir GH references might be a window to that fact. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 29.05.2008 17:55 |
And back to hell those children will go... link |
| FreeSpirit328 25.06.2008 21:39 |
This cult in Texas is not part of the Mormon churchin anyway. The Mormon church does not allow polygomy to accur because in 1890, Brigham Young sent a proclaimation denouncing the practice. The members of the main Mormon church who did not agree with this branched off into their own sects, and this is why all this stuff is goingon. Recently I saw a segment on 20/20 about a polygomist group outside Colorado Springs. They seemed ok, that is like they didn't abuse their children, but who knows. It was just ridiculous! This guy had nine wives/concubines and twenty children! Anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything. I happen to be a Mormon, so I thought I would clear up any misconceptions :) |