| magicalfreddiemercury 20.11.2007 16:50 |
She was gang raped by seven men but because she was 'alone with an unrelated male', she'll receive 90 lashes and time in prison. One of the reasons we were given for invading Iraq was to liberate the Iraqi people from an evil dictator. If we can fight a six year plus war for this reason, why can't we and the rest of the supposed civilized world at least condemn this so called justice? link |
| Carol! the Musical 20.11.2007 21:11 |
That's terrible. D: |
| AspiringPhilosophe 21.11.2007 00:02 |
Hey Magical I promise I'll respond....when I have time :-S |
| YourValentine 21.11.2007 03:41 |
More details about this case on the Human Rights Watch website link Saudi Arabia is one of the worst countries for a woman to live in. I don't even want to imagine the agony of this poor woman. |
| john bodega 21.11.2007 07:42 |
It's okay, just say there's oil under where it happened and you'll get people in there in no time. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 21.11.2007 08:21 |
YourValentine wrote: More details about this case on the Human Rights Watch website linkAccording to this article, the case is a year old. ?! Why are we just hearing about this now? I didn't realize the 'unrelated male' she was with had also been punished with the same sentence as she. It's a disgusting system and while I understand there's a different mindset there with their religion and laws, I still find it impossible to understand how a mother or a father or a loving husband can remain silent and accepting of this treatment toward their loved one. I suppose it's the fear of what their own punishment would be. I'd think, with this form of justice, people would not want to create children. I'd die before I'd see my daughter (or son, for that matter) first assaulted by strangers then by the system. I think this sentence from the article said everything - “Their interrogations and court hearings are more likely to compound the trauma of the original assault than provide justice.” |
| YourValentine 21.11.2007 10:22 |
The case is older but the verdict is new, it was an appeal. The woman - extremely courageously - appealed only to be punished even more. BBC also reported that victims and offenders all were Shiites, the minority in the country. Apparently, the rapists also got more jail time. Why we did not hear about it? We did hear about it - now it has been reported in the mainstream media because the US administration said the verdict is "astonishing". Maybe the victim would have had a better chance if we all had been a bit more outspoken. There are just so many cases of ctruelty and injustice - it's almost impossible to keep track and the most urgent action is always taken in Death Penalty cases. |
| Micrówave 21.11.2007 11:21 |
Not 90. Now she gets 200 lashes and has to walk the plank. Arrrrrr.
And it was increased, apparently, because she DID talk to the media.
YourValentine wrote: Saudi Arabia is one of the worst countries for a woman to live in. The Victim's husband says: Saudi society, he said, is "is very respectful to women in general."Source: CNN |
| YourValentine 21.11.2007 12:49 |
link Maybe there is hope, after all with the case getting more attention worldwide. Saudi Arabia does not want to be looked at as a country where women have no protection at all and the courage the husband may have an effect. |
| Micrówave 21.11.2007 14:34 |
I don't think Saudi Arabia is too worried about public perception. If anything, this will further their efforts of extreme islamism. How could the victim's husband make that "In General" statement about his country? You see, women are property. Seeing these events will pound that point home. And I'm sure the aggressors will serve closer to the 2 years than the 9 years. It's a different world over there. The religious rule is NO going out in public without a male companion. I guess that a similar comparison would be the religious nuts who burn down abortion clinics. There are plenty of "holy" people out there claiming it's God's work and the right thing to do. Furthermore, pretty stupid of Hilary Clinton to come out and lash out at the Saudi government. So I guess we can strike her off the list of hopefuls now, also. What a dipshit. If she would have won, how would she diplomatically deal with Saudi Arabia after going on record with her latest rant? It would probably be best to be glad it's not happening in our neighborhood and quit worrying what other countries do to their citizens. |
| AspiringPhilosophe 21.11.2007 14:59 |
Well, now that I have more time to respond, most of what I wanted to say has already been said. I mean, Saudi Arabia is the country that is the birthplace and raising place of Osama bin Laden. Don't get me wrong, I'm as pro-Muslim as I can be considering I don't like any form of organized or unorganized religion, but this sad event unfortunately doesn't surprise me at all. |
| Mr.Jingles 21.11.2007 16:14 |
Can you imagine what they would do to Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and Lindsay Lohan in Saudi Arabia? ( >-D ~ evil grin ) |
| Tero 21.11.2007 16:41 |
Mr.Jingles wrote: Can you imagine what they would do to Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and Lindsay Lohan in Saudi Arabia? ( >-D ~ evil grin )Should we set up a collection on the internet, and hire them to appear at an imaginary event there? ;) |
| its_a_hard_life 26994 21.11.2007 17:05 |
Mr.Jingles wrote: Can you imagine what they would do to Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and Lindsay Lohan in Saudi Arabia? ( >-D ~ evil grin )LMAO. :O |
| The Real Wizard 23.11.2007 09:53 |
Micrówave wrote: You see, women are property. Seeing these events will pound that point home. And I'm sure the aggressors will serve closer to the 2 years than the 9 years. It's a different world over there. The religious rule is NO going out in public without a male companion. I guess that a similar comparison would be the religious nuts who burn down abortion clinics. There are plenty of "holy" people out there claiming it's God's work and the right thing to do.Exactly. I feel beyond awful for the woman on a human level, but if she was aware of the rules of her country and the consequences for breaking them, she shouldn't have left the home without her husband (apparently it is him who you must be with). I'm not condoning the rules. I'm just accepting that those are the rules, and that there's unfortunately no sign of the theocracy being eradicated any time soon. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 23.11.2007 11:10 |
Clearly, this young woman broke the law by going out without a related male companion. However, I'd say being abducted and raped by seven men - Christ! Raped! By seven men! - is punishment enough. But that's me and I've no control over the Saudi regime. My problem with this - beyond the obvious - is that the world is not roaring mad. When forced circumcision of young girls was brought into the mainstream, voices from all over condemned it. It's still being practiced, but if I have my facts straight, its practice is now against the law in many territories. Why are we not seeing a public outcry here? This isn't the first we've heard of cases like this. By now, I'd think we'd want it to change. Is the world so numb to it now that we're resigned to accept laws like this simply because 'that's the way it is over there'? |
| The Real Wizard 23.11.2007 11:31 |
Yep, exactly. As long as most people in the west are convinced without proof that an invisible man in the sky exists, they aren't going to be able to see how similar beliefs (although more extreme) in another part of the world are the reason why this poor woman is about to be tortured, again. They'll simply write it off as a "cultural problem", regardless of its roots, and call it a day. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 23.11.2007 12:23 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: Yep, exactly. As long as most people in the west are convinced without proof that an invisible man in the sky exists, they aren't going to be able to see how similar beliefs (although more extreme) in another part of the world are the reason why this poor woman is about to be tortured, again. They'll simply write it off as a "cultural problem", regardless of its roots, and call it a day.I hate what you've said here but I do agree with it. It just sounds so hopeless. |
| YourValentine 23.11.2007 14:55 |
Oh no - it's not about disobeying the rules - please read the reports and see the interviews which are available! First of all, the victim was not married, she married after the rape. Secondly, it's not true that women in Saudi Arabia cannot leave the house without permission - they are not allowed to "mingle" with unrelated men without permission of a male relative. In this case it's very questionable that there was any "mingling" because she was in a car with her friend on a public street in front of a mall when the 6 guys caught her and her friend. Even if we assume that women should obey such rules without any resistance - it is very controversial that the victim violated these despicable rules. Now - about how the world should react: they should protest, shout out, send emails and faxes to the court of the king. Hillary Clinton is right. All Western leaders should voice their objection. Not long ago King Abdullah was in England (under much protest by Human Rights activists) to buy war jets for several billion $$. They want to do their dirty business in peace. The more the public gets angry about such a case the bigger the chance they let her free to avoid more bad publicity. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 23.11.2007 16:12 |
YourValentine wrote: Oh no - it's not about disobeying the rules - please read the reports and see the interviews which are available! First of all, the victim was not married, she married after the rape. Secondly, it's not true that women in Saudi Arabia cannot leave the house without permission - they are not allowed to "mingle" with unrelated men without permission of a male relative. In this case it's very questionable that there was any "mingling" because she was in a car with her friend on a public street in front of a mall when the 6 guys caught her and her friend. Even if we assume that women should obey such rules without any resistance - it is very controversial that the victim violated these despicable rules. Now - about how the world should react: they should protest, shout out, send emails and faxes to the court of the king. Hillary Clinton is right. All Western leaders should voice their objection. Not long ago King Abdullah was in England (under much protest by Human Rights activists) to buy war jets for several billion $$. They want to do their dirty business in peace. The more the public gets angry about such a case the bigger the chance they let her free to avoid more bad publicity.The term "mingling", unfortunately, is subjective. They were in a public place, yes, but she was not escorted by a male relative and so, in that regard, she broke the, as you correctly called it, "despicable" law. We're not hearing much about this case on the news here anymore - though we are hearing repeatedly about how wonderful the weather was for the Thanksgiving Day Parade yesterday. It's like it's already old news. I've sent an email to Hillary Clinton thanking her for her comments on this and stating my concern that more is not being done. My fear, however, is that the more that's made of this, the worse this woman's treatment will be. I don't mean to imply nothing should be said or done, just that I'm afraid of what sentence they might inflict upon her next. |
| YourValentine 28.11.2007 03:34 |
News about this case on CNN. Looks like the Saudi government does not like the bad publicity after all. Funny how the prince thinks the case is used "against Saudi government and people". From CNN: "A Saudi court will review the case of a teenage gang rape victim sentenced to jail and flogging after she was convicted of violating the country's strict sex segregation laws, the foreign minister said Tuesday. Saudi Arabia Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal, center, attended the Mideast peace conference Tuesday. The remarks by Prince Saud al-Faisal, made in the United States and carried by the official Saudi Press Agency, were the latest in response to a salvo of international condemnation of Saudi judicial authorities' handling of the case. It was also a sharp turn from a statement Saturday in which the Saudi Justice Ministry condemned the 19-year-old woman as an adulteress who had allegedly confessed to cheating on her husband. She was raped by seven men and then sentenced to six months prison and 200 lashes. In the statement, the ministry said the flogging sentence would be carried out and condemned foreign interference. The statement likely sought to ease international outrage over the case by discrediting the woman. On Tuesday, SPA quoted al-Faisal as saying "the Saudi judiciary will review the case." But al-Faisal was also on the defensive and maintained the case was being used against Saudi authorities. "What is outraging about this case is that it is being used against the Saudi government and people," he said, speaking in Annapolis, Maryland, where he was attending the U.S.-hosted Mideast peace conference" |
| Micrówave 28.11.2007 10:39 |
$5 says they don't even bring this subject up in these "mid-east peace talks". In the end (no pun intended), they'll give her the 200 and THEN decide it was not right. The apology letter will look very nice and official, though. |
| YourValentine 28.11.2007 12:43 |
I just hope you are not right, although nothing has been decided yet and it's well possible it will happen exactly as you say. Our hope is the pressure by as many people as possible. The unfriendly reception of King Abdullah by Human Rights protesters in England last month may help to persuade the government that it's better to stop the gross injustice in order to avoid further public protests. It's the only hope for this poor woman. |
| The Real Wizard 28.11.2007 19:14 |
Micrówave wrote: $5 says they don't even bring this subject up in these "mid-east peace talks".Only $5? You've got a good chance to make some top dollar here! |
| YourValentine 08.02.2008 11:52 |
I wanted to bring that topic back up because we did not follow it here to the end. In the mean time the rape victim was pardoned by King Abdullah link At least she was spared the additional torture which is very good news. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 08.02.2008 12:27 |
^ It is very good news. What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press. And notice the end of the article? The male who was with this victim, who was also a victim, might still be punished. There is no word about him. That makes me question the punishment for the perpetrators. Their sentences were minor compared to the victim's. But... since they raped not just her, but a man as well, shouldn't there be harsher punishment for them? I mean, homosexuality and homosexual acts are considered abominations in the Muslim faith, yes? Shouldn't those men have been severely punished for that if not for raping a woman (who, according to their laws, seemed to have deserved/earned what she got)? |
| The Real Wizard 08.02.2008 16:54 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press.A valid concern. But at least in this case, a difference was made. The BBC's Heba Saleh says the king's decision to pardon the woman victim is already arousing controversy with some contributors to conservative websites, who say he has breached the rules of religion in order to appease critics in the West. ... The justice ministry recently rejected what it saw as "foreign interference" in the case and insisted the ruling was legal and that the woman had confessed to having an affair with her fellow rape victim.Religion - the only thing that can make good people do bad things. Some parts of the world are still centuries behind us. A question for any history majors here... how and why did the middle east miss the enlightenment? How did the western world escape the stranglehold of the Catholic church, but parts of the eastern world missed out? |
| YourValentine 09.02.2008 04:31 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: ^ It is very good news. What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press. And notice the end of the article? The male who was with this victim, who was also a victim, might still be punished. There is no word about him. That makes me question the punishment for the perpetrators. Their sentences were minor compared to the victim's. But... since they raped not just her, but a man as well, shouldn't there be harsher punishment for them? I mean, homosexuality and homosexual acts are considered abominations in the Muslim faith, yes? Shouldn't those men have been severely punished for that if not for raping a woman (who, according to their laws, seemed to have deserved/earned what she got)?I agree with everything you say. It's truly impossible to "rule" into another country's judiciary system and the whole case is just outrageous. However, outside pressure can avoid the worst in some cases and this is what happened here. The woman who suffered that much was spared the additional torture and pain because many people from outside the country protested (for example Hillary Clinton). Next time we may fail but this one woman was helped. Just a few examples from Iran that make your blood freeze. link But here is a case when international solidarity and protests made a difference link Btw, the man who was with the raped woman was also pardoned link |