QueenZone discussion #1040309

<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: Topic-starter is a FASCIST. Forced military service is a remnant of nationalist ideology, that caused us two world wars. Anyone supporting the outrageous thought of reïnstating such a completely barbaric institution deserves to be thrown in the sea. The money that would have to be wasted on your (and the tories') ridiculous idea would have to come from funds used otherwise on IMPORTANT things like healthcare, education. It would cost fortunes, and what would you do? Train people to KILL. And you think that'll solve anything? Fuck, you're stupid!

Nathan wrote: I'm afraid I disagree completely with the idea. On the surface it may seem like a reasonable suggestion, but many of these hoodies are not likely to change. Furthermore, giving them military and weapon training and discipline will most likely make them far more dangerous to the public than what they are now. Not every thug can be rehabilitated like those in Bad Lads' Army.

HistoryGirl wrote: First off:
The army is an institute devoted to KILLING. Or are you going to tell me they use guns to water the plants? An army is meant to kill soldiers from another country to gain land or defend it. Any other skills you might learn are subsidiary to the first two: "Obey orders unquestioningly!" and "Kill!"
The Army is an institution devoted to defense. Most of the time this involves killing I will admit. You are speaking of an offensive army, which is completely different. The Army is not constantly at war, if you will recall. As a matter of fact, most border changes for the last 50 years have been the results of civil wars (read army conflict with "dissidents" from home countries)...nothing on the offensive end of killing soldiers from another country. See for an example basically every Easter European nation since the fall of Communism. Wars for territorial gain have thus been limited to the borders that they already embrace (see Africa). That doesn't meet your definition of "killing soldiers from another country to gain land". But if you would rather have no army in your country (and the Netherlands has a military, unless I'm mistaken) then go right ahead....but don't think it will go unnoticed if you suddenly disband the military. I'd like to think that humans are above such squabbling after thousands of years of evolution, but unfortunately we are not. The military remains a necessary evil for any country.
Now that first one; whatever else the military will teach you, its foremost effect will be that the subject is completely conditioned to take orders without questioning them. When they get out of the service, voila, a mass of people who will do their jobs and take orders UNQUESTIONINGLY. The boss is ALWAYS right. That is not a country I want.
So how does this explain all of the soldiers who are coming back from Iraq, and who are blogging from Iraq, who are openly challenging the military hierarchy? If they are turned into mindless machines who do nothing but obey orders, as you allege, then we wouldn't see returning soldiers fighting their assignments to go back and openly going to the press with challenges to the top brass. I can think of many other things that turn people into unquestioning robots besides the military (religion for example).
Let's look at the problem from another angle, shall we? Why do we have laws, Caspar? We have laws to keep order in society, am I right? The fact that we need laws to do this is sad, and I think both you and I would agree on that. But it's reality, so we have to start with what we have. Laws are needed to keep society in order. Now, I ask you, what good are these laws if no one obeys them? Not very good, I'd say. Order in society is made possibly by the existance of laws (which are based on societal customs and values, blah blah blah), but people have to obey these laws for them to be any good at all. I think we can agree on this. The problem that Joxer is addressing is people who will not obey said laws...they are causing disorder in society. Now a certain about of disorder is nothing to panic about; indeed I'd be scared if society was too harmonious. But it's getting to the point where people are too scared to confront people who are damaging personal property for fear they'll be hurt or killed. This is an unhealthy level of disorder, and it's bad for society when it becomes dangerous like this. So the idea of taking these people into an institution and forcing them to obey the laws that society has set down for a while is not necessarily a bad thing...this is the idea behind jail. But the military can accomplish the same thing...it can instill a respect for authority that these people are lacking, an it is respect for authority that keeps society functioning in a healthy way. Or would you rather we lock all of these kids up in jail forever? We can

Music Man wrote: It's not the government's responsibility to teach respect, nor should the government have the authority to impose any mandatory involvement against the will of its citizens. The government can't say, "It's for your own good, so you have to do it." The most it should be able to do is say, "It's for your own good, and we recommend it, if you should decide to do it."

Music Man wrote: It's not the government's responsibility to teach respect, nor should the government have the authority to impose any mandatory involvement against the will of its citizens. The government can't say, "It's for your own good, so you have to do it." The most it should be able to do is say, "It's for your own good, and we recommend it, if you should decide to do it."