PieterMC 02.07.2007 22:19 |
What a bunch of bullshit... |
Mr.Jingles 02.07.2007 22:48 |
He would pardon whatever criminal among his close circle of friends. |
iron eagle 02.07.2007 22:50 |
he didnt pardon him-- a pardon would have not only wiped out the jail term but the fines and conviction itself.. he only commuted the jail term sure that will take his popularity down another 10 points or so....... |
magicalfreddiemercury 02.07.2007 22:55 |
PieterMC wrote: What a bunch of bullshit...That about sums up this administration. |
iGSM 02.07.2007 23:02 |
Who has a name like that? |
PieterMC 02.07.2007 23:45 |
iron eagle wrote: he didnt pardon him-- a pardon would have not only wiped out the jail term but the fines and conviction itself.. he only commuted the jail term sure that will take his popularity down another 10 points or so.......Still bullshit :-) |
Maz 02.07.2007 23:51 |
Of course, a pardon in January 2009 is not out of the question. |
iron eagle 02.07.2007 23:59 |
didnt say it wasnt bs either *LOL* |
pittrek 03.07.2007 01:47 |
I know who is Scooby Doo, but who the * is Scooter Libby ? |
Haystacks Calhoun II 03.07.2007 10:01 |
No pardon, folks.....just commuted the 30 month jail sentence. Still convicted of a felony, still on probation, still paying the fines... Lets be fair here, though. How quickly we seem to forget the past in this country.... link |
PieterMC 03.07.2007 10:24 |
Haystacks Calhounski wrote: linkThat's bullshit too. Presidential pardons are a joke. |
AspiringPhilosophe 03.07.2007 11:46 |
You know, just when I thought he couldn't get any dumber. He HAD to have known that if he even touched the sentence at all he was basically going to be admitting to being corrupt within his government. I mean it's not nice to let a guy take a fall for what you ordered, but it was neccessary to preserve any sense of dignity in this mess, and maybe, just maybe, show people that he had learned a lesson about justice. I guess he is sticking to his guns and what he thinks is right on this one...commuting the sentence. But it's going to cost him more in the long run. |
Haystacks Calhoun II 03.07.2007 11:54 |
PieterMC wrote:You will get no argument here....at least you play fair. It's a joke to read Hillary's statement about this.Haystacks Calhounski wrote: linkThat's bullshit too. Presidential pardons are a joke. "This commutation sends the clear signal that in this administration, cronyism and ideology trump competence and justice." - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y. She act's like her and hubby never did anything of the sort with their circle of friends....take a look at their record regarding "cronyism and ideology".... And some people are actually serious about putting another idealogue into office? Sheesh. |
bohemian 11513 03.07.2007 12:10 |
HistoryGirl wrote: ...But it's going to cost him more in the long run.I bet his chances for reelection dropped to zero now! :-))) |
Maz 03.07.2007 12:21 |
Haystacks Calhounski wrote: still paying the fines...It should also be pointed out that wealthy or influential Republican officials, like former ambassador Richard Carlson, have been fundraising for his defense. I would imagine that more money will be raised to help pay off the fines, or at the least, someone will offer a job. And both Clinton and Bush Sr did the pardon thing to dubious officials. Circumstances forced Bush Jr to commute the sentence now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a pardon just days or hours before he leaves office. |
Micrówave 03.07.2007 12:25 |
If he thinks the sentence was too harsh, then I agree. It's not like he's doing this every day. Why not take a look at the numbers before claiming a conspiracy. Libby was an attorney. He'll never do that again and still has to pay all the fines. Should we have just gone out and shot the man? PARDONS AND COMMUTATIONS George W. Bush (2001 - ) Pardons -- 13 Commutations -- 4 Bill Clinton (1993-2001) Pardons -- 396 Commutations -- 61 George H.W. Bush (1989-1993) Pardons -- 74 Commutations: 3 Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) Pardons -- 393 Commutations -- 13 Jimmy Carter (1977-1981) Pardons -- 534 Commutations -- 29 Gerald Ford (1974-1977) Pardons -- 382 Commutations -- 22 Richard Nixon (1969-1974) Pardons -- 863 Commutations -- 60 Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969) Pardons -- 960 Commutations -- 226 John F. Kennedy (1961-1963) Pardons -- 472 Commutations -- 100 Dwight Eisenhower (1953-1961) Pardons -- 1,110 Commutations -- 47 Harry Truman (1945-1953) Pardons -- 1,913 Commutations -- 118 |
Haystacks Calhoun II 03.07.2007 12:47 |
Only 87 pardons between the two Bush's? Only 13 by W? Wow. Not many. Take a look at the rest of those posted, that's a lot. |
Maz 03.07.2007 12:50 |
When was the last time he practiced law? Do you really think the fact that he will be disbarred means his income potential is shot? My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone. |
Maz 03.07.2007 12:53 |
And as for the list, while showing the use of presidential pardons, a little context should be used. It is my guess (and a quick search confirms most of it) that many of the pardons that presidents like Truman, Eisenhower, Nixon, and LBJ (Democrats and Republicans both) were for military violations like avoiding the draft or selective service. Carter, for instance, pardoned many draft dodgers from Vietnam, which surely accounted for a lot of his 530+. Sure, there were probably some political pardons thrown in for good measure, but don't assume that just because Truman had 2000, he abused it more than Reagan's 400 (for instance). Personally, how Reagan could ever pardon George Steinbrenner is beyond me. |
bohemian 11513 03.07.2007 13:02 |
Micrówave wrote: He'll never do that again and still has to pay all the fines.What fines? Poor ol´Scooter facing bancruptcy?Halliburton/KBR will gladly take the tab!!! ;-) And by the way... If Libby has not commenced his sentence (meaning the clock has not even started on his sentence) then how can his sentence be commuted??? |
bohemian 11513 03.07.2007 13:14 |
iron eagle wrote: ...sure that will take his popularity down another 10 points or so.......Approval ratings don’t go into negative numbers... ;-) |
Haystacks Calhoun II 03.07.2007 13:15 |
Maz wrote: When was the last time he practiced law? Do you really think the fact that he will be disbarred means his income potential is shot? My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.He is now a convicted felon, now, and forever. He will serve probation, and, yeah, the fine to him is probably pretty much meaningless.... I'm not a fan of this, but, 30 months of prison was waaaaay over the top. He simply took the brunt of the whole fiasco. |
Micrówave 03.07.2007 13:19 |
Maz wrote: My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.Paris Hilton got $1 million from Larry King the day she got out of jail. The checks are waaaaaaay more than Libby. Why aren't you attacking the Los Angeles Criminal Codes as well? If you have a lot of money before you go to jail, odds are, you're going to have a lot of money after jail. My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this? |
Maz 03.07.2007 13:30 |
Micrówave wrote: My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?Who did Nixon actually hurt in Watergate? Doesn't mean he didn't commit a crime, though. Libby was convicted of obstruction of justice because he lied under oath during an investigation into the leaking of classified information. He deliberately gave misinformation in a federal investigation in order to obscure the truth. Doesn't matter who does it or when they do it, laws are in place that are supposed to protect against that. Now, as Haystacks mentioned, Libby bore the brunt of the punishment when the "real" crime, the leaking of classified info, was done by higher-ups. I'm sure many people would rather those "criminals" were tried in place of Scooter, but why hasn't that happened? |
bohemian 11513 03.07.2007 13:30 |
Micrówave wrote: My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?C´mon... How can ANYONE, Republican or Democrat, possibly condone this blatant disregard of the law of the land? I am quite sure that if you, Mr. ordinary citizen, were convicted of lying to a Grand Jury, for ANY reason whatsoever, especially at the higest levels of government, you would be doing your time with not even the passing notice of the President of the United States. American citizens routinely spend more time behind bars for shoplifting or smoking pot, than convicted felon Mr. Libby will for his political coverup... Democracy and justice in America are hurt... |
Maz 03.07.2007 13:32 |
Micrówave wrote: Paris Hilton got $1 million from Larry King the day she got out of jail. The checks are waaaaaaay more than Libby. Why aren't you attacking the Los Angeles Criminal Codes as well?And we're really not going to obscure the issue by bringing that up, are we? I could care less about her. Stay on point, Mr. Home Cooking Appliance. |
Maz 03.07.2007 13:36 |
One last comment while I'm on my high horse - If you really want to investigate this commuting, then it would behoove us to know what similarly convicted persons have received in terms of jail time. I have yet to see that mentioned anywhere. Bush says 30 months is too much, Fitzgerald says it's in line with other cases. What does the record actually show? Also, there are perfectly legitimate reasons a person should be/could be pardoned. What makes this case so controversial is that the commuting of his sentence comes before he served any actual time in jail and while the possibility of more indictments is out there. By having his sentence commuted, Libby can invoke the 5th in any other investigation and hamper further prosecutions. Ok, two comments, but I'm off the high horse. For now, at least. |
Micrówave 03.07.2007 16:04 |
Allow me to get my Bush T-shirt on and try to answer:
Maz wrote: Who did Nixon actually hurt in Watergate? Doesn't mean he didn't commit a crime, though.He used campaign money to fund a criminal act. Libby simply lied under oath. What about those two sportswriters who were jailed for not revealing their source during the Barry Bonds / Balco fiasco. You're saying a law is a law and those two also deserved their jail time? Bohemian wrote: I am quite sure that if you, Mr. ordinary citizen, were convicted of lying to a Grand Jury, for ANY reason whatsoever, especially at the higest levels of government, you would be doing your time with not even the passing notice of the President of the United States.Yep, those bastard sportswriters deserved every day they got. See above. By the way, keeping to baseball, Rafael Palmiero testified to a Grand Jury that he's never used steroids then tested positive less than a year later and was mentioned in Canseco's book as a frequent user. So you think we should be jailing baseball players NOT for using illegally obtained drugs but instead for LYING. Sorry, can't agree with you there. Maz wrote:Sorry, got sidetracked when it comes to all things Paris and Nicole.Micrówave wrote: Paris HiltonStay on point, Mr. Home Cooking Appliance. |
Micrówave 03.07.2007 16:16 |
Maz wrote: Bush says 30 months is too much, Fitzgerald says it's in line with other cases. What does the record actually show? Also, there are perfectly legitimate reasons a person should be/could be pardoned. What makes this case so controversial is that the commuting of his sentence comes before he served any actual time in jail and while the possibility of more indictments is out there. By having his sentence commuted, Libby can invoke the 5th in any other investigation and hamper further prosecutions.We're not talking about a murder conspiracy or funnelling funds here. HE SIMPLY LIED UNDER OATH and the persuaded Judge threw the book at him. There's your injustice. Why can't someone answer my question: Who did Libby actually hurt? Who's livelihood was taken away? A lawyer convicted of lying under oath will never be approved by any state bar for the rest of his life. I don't care if he has another source of income, they took HIS livelihood away. Why do you guys want him tarred & feathered? |
Maz 03.07.2007 17:29 |
I'm guessing it's been years since Libby actually earned a living as a licensed and practicing lawyer. How could they take his livelihood away if it wasn't his livelihood to begin with. As far as I know, nowhere does it say "must be licensed lawyer" in the job description for Vice Presidential Chief O' Staff. Also, an honest question, but I would assume that a pardon would vacate his conviction and make him eligible to be relicensed? Libby obstructed a criminal investigation by lying under oath (I assume you wore your "Free Martha" shirt back in 2004?). As for who he hurt, one could make the case that it was Valarie Plame since he willingly blocked an investigation into how her livelihood was taken away. Personally, I don't think tarring and feathering him will do much since it's clear he's the patsy here (cue Jack Ruby). Finally, Balco Journalists exposed the fact that some highly-paid and highly-buff athletes took possibly illegal performance-enhancing drugs. Its effect on the world is limited, though we can only hope that Bonds gets asterixed. Libby lied to protect higher-ups in an investigation into who outed a covert CIA agent while the nation is supposedly at war with Terror. Apples and oranges, or baseballs and red tape, or silver and llamas, or whatever other two things are far apart. PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS |
Haystacks Calhoun II 03.07.2007 17:45 |
I guess, for all of us, regardless of political persuasion, if your not outraged at our government, both Democrat leaders and Republican leaders, you aren't paying attention....... Can't we just throw ALL of them out, and start from scratch? |
magicalfreddiemercury 03.07.2007 18:19 |
Haystacks Calhounski wrote: I guess, for all of us, regardless of political persuasion, if your not outraged at our government, both Democrat leaders and Republican leaders, you aren't paying attention....... Can't we just throw ALL of them out, and start from scratch?On this, Haystacks, I for one am with you. |
AspiringPhilosophe 03.07.2007 18:56 |
@ Bohemian: Democracy and justice in America are hurt... That is of course what I meant when I said more damage in the long run. He's obviously as self centered as they come. He doesn't care what kind of precedent this sets, and he also clearly doesn't give a shit about the Republicans who are trying to win the presidency. If he even gave a damn about what he has done as President, he's pretty much guaranteed that a Republican will not get elected in the next election...and you better believe the Democrats will spend their time undoing everything he has done. I'm not exactly sure that's a good message for anyone to want to live up to...He doesn't even give a damn about his own party. Not to mention the damage to America, our image, and democracy....but then again he's so deluded I'm not sure he cares, since he's surrounded by his own form of reality that is completely out of whack with the reality of everyone else. |
goodco 03.07.2007 20:41 |
I had hoped for the best when the minority vote-getter ascended to the throne in 2000. After all, what a great chance to show that he was a 'uniter'. All that has happened since the rightful attack in Afghanistan.......I do truly hate him. And yet, now, I am frightened. I was 16 when Nixon resigned. I'm afraid GW may have started a Libbygate equal to that. And I do not want to go through it again. For my sake, and for my country. That scares me. It really does. One final comment: it's a good thing Scooter Libby was not on Texas Death Row during GW's tenure as governor. Only one out of 153 death sentences were commuted after a 'governor's appeal'. |
magicalfreddiemercury 04.07.2007 10:50 |
For those still with questions about proper sentencing, the ending paragraphs of this article might clear things up (though the beginning of the article is quite interesting, too, IMO) - link |
Maz 04.07.2007 12:10 |
That's just the kind of info I wondered about. Thanks for the link. And the opening paragraphs are interesting too, to say the least. |