| OwenSmith 06.01.2014 17:30 |
The BBC Session 6 tracks were remixed by Tony Wilson for the Alan Freeman show as part of the BBC's quadraphonic broadcasting experiments in the second half of 1977. These mixes were in quadraphonic sound, encoded into sterero using Matrix H (a bit like Dolby Surround or SQ quad). All existing releases of Session 6 have been checked and found to be the standard stereo mix so do not decode. I have a contact that can decode Matrix H back to quadraphonic, but to do this we need the Tony Wilson / Alan Freeman mix. Does anyone have either an off air recording from the Alan Freeman show or a copy of these masters? This is one of only two items of Queen in legacy 1970s quad formats so this stuff would be good to find. |
| pittrek 07.01.2014 02:29 |
That's interesting, I didn't know this. |
| OwenSmith 08.01.2014 11:02 |
Not many people do know this, which might explain why getting hold of a recording of the correct Matrix H encoded broadcast is proving so hard. My contact in the quadraphonic world has recently been put in touch with Tony Wilson the mixing engineer so we should be able to check the facts. But he hasn't said he has a copy, which is a shame. |
| brians wig 18.01.2014 16:28 |
Nice bit of detective work, Owen :) |
| The Real Wizard 19.01.2014 01:50 |
Brilliant work, again ! There are so many copies of this floating around. I've come across no less than a dozen, and it's possible that one of them may be from the quad version. Is there any audible difference while just listening in stereo? I recall the Golders Green, once decoded, brought out the lead vocal quite a bit more, as it's buried in its original state, as we all know now.. |
| OwenSmith 22.01.2014 11:03 |
I claim no credit for the research on this, all the information about the Alan Freeman Matrix H broadcasts came from a chap known as Oxford Dickie (OD for short) in quadraphonic audio circles on the net. He's the one who has developed computer processes to decode Matrix H (and many other matrix quadraphonic formats). Unfortunately we have no information on any audible differences when listening in stereo. OD had to attempt a decode of the existing shares of this to find that they weren't Matrix H. That's the complete 4 track share from Jon Stuart a few years ago (mini disc copy of the masters), then the two tracks from the 2011 remasters CD disc 2, and finally We Will Rock You from the KBFH compilation CD someone shared recently (I bought the CD online to see if it mentioned Matrix H or quad but it didn't). I guess the obvious way to tell would be if Alan Freeman is heard as the DJ on the recording. |
| The Real Wizard 23.01.2014 01:32 |
OwenSmith wrote: I guess the obvious way to tell would be if Alan Freeman is heard as the DJ on the recording.Hmm, has anyone ever heard a copy of this ? I haven't. |
| Barry Durex 18.08.2014 04:12 |
A CD you may want to seek out is Royal Rarities (CD 1) It mentions the ''Alan Freeman sessions'' in the track listings. |
| Barry Durex 18.08.2014 04:17 |
You may also want to check the King Biscuit version of WWRY as I'm told it is the definitive version from session 6. This doesn't mean it's from the Alan Freeman broadcast of course, but you never know! |
| The Real Wizard 18.08.2014 13:39 |
All these versions have the fake audience dubbed in. Hard to know which broadcast is which, especially when they end up on bootlegs like this. But thanks for the input, condom dude ! |
| Barry Durex 19.08.2014 04:15 |
The Real Wizard wrote: All these versions have the fake audience dubbed in.Are you saying the Alan Freeman broadcast could not have had the audience dubbing? Also, the King Biscuit version of WWRY I mentioned does not have any audience dubbed. Looking through some old posts it looks like owenSmith has this version, so has probably had his contact check it for quad already. Here's a link to that version if anyone wants it.link |
| The Real Wizard 19.08.2014 14:51 |
Barry Durex wrote:No idea. But at least we're taking a stab at trying to figure out which version is which.The Real Wizard wrote: All these versions have the fake audience dubbed in.Are you saying the Alan Freeman broadcast could not have had the audience dubbing? Thanks for posting that file. So now we know the KBFH version doesn't have the panned audience. When was that one broadcast? And the next question is, who came up with the bright idea to add the noise - bootleggers or people in the radio world? |
| bootLuca 19.08.2014 15:19 |
The Real Wizard wrote: And the next question is, who came up with the bright idea to add the noise - bootleggers or people in the radio world?I think radio world because there is a promotional CD of the 1988 (so before the cd bootleg market) called "King Biscuit Flower Hour Kansas\Queen" released for the DIR Radio Network that includes the BBC sessions with the audience overdubbed. |
| Barry Durex 19.08.2014 17:29 |
That's right, strangely only WWRY from KBFH has surfaced without the audience dubbed. The other tracks have the dubbed audience on them. There is also some dodgy explanation on how the narrative during WWRY came about, but I suspect this was also dubbed. A radio station would be the prime suspect for all the dubbing in my opinion. It's possible it started on BBC broadcast and perhaps that was the Alan Freeman one. |
| The Real Wizard 19.08.2014 17:41 |
bootLuca wrote:Fascinating - thanks for that !The Real Wizard wrote: And the next question is, who came up with the bright idea to add the noise - bootleggers or people in the radio world?I think radio world because there is a promotional CD of the 1988 (so before the cd bootleg market) called "King Biscuit Flower Hour Kansas\Queen" released for the DIR Radio Network that includes the BBC sessions with the audience overdubbed. But this is from 1988. Already in 1978 there were LP bootlegs with the audience added in.. link |
| The Real Wizard 19.08.2014 17:55 |
Barry Durex wrote: There is also some dodgy explanation on how the narrative during WWRY came about, but I suspect this was also dubbed.The BBC regularly re-used tape back in the day, and Queen were recording on the same tape this narration of Hermann Hesse's novel Siddhartha. They simply chose to use a bit of it for their own amusement between the two versions of WWRY, and added the pitch-bending effect after the fact. |
| Barry Durex 19.08.2014 18:37 |
^ That was the explanation, yes. In other words the original recording on the tape was ''dubbed" back in, so why not add an audience why we are about it? |
| The Real Wizard 20.08.2014 13:29 |
Ahh, good ol' speculation. Is this our dead end, or can further investigation can be done? |
| Barry Durex 20.08.2014 13:40 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Ahh, good ol' speculation. Is this our dead end, or can further investigation can be done?I still say it might be worth checking Royal Rarities for quad. Sounds like a decent transfer to me. |
| The Real Wizard 20.08.2014 14:46 |
I have rips of literally almost every Queen bootleg ever produced, but not that one. I'll do some digging. |
| bootLuca 20.08.2014 23:28 |
Barry Durex wrote: A CD you may want to seek out is Royal Rarities (CD 1) It mentions the ''Alan Freeman sessions'' in the track listings below.seen the order of the tracks (WWRY/It's Late/Melancholy/Wings) I have the feeling there are the audience overdubbed also in that cd |
| The Real Wizard 21.08.2014 04:45 |
Potential help here: link |
| Barry Durex 21.08.2014 07:02 |
bootLuca wrote:Yes they are, but as you said the radio station could have mixed it in. There is a slight chance it could still be from the Alan Freeman broadcast. The sound quality is really nice and that dubbing is to a very high standard.Barry Durex wrote: A CD you may want to seek out is Royal Rarities (CD 1) It mentions the ''Alan Freeman sessions'' in the track listings below.seen the order of the tracks (WWRY/It's Late/Melancholy/Wings) I have the feeling there are the audience overdubbed also in that cd |
| bootLuca 21.08.2014 11:49 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Potential help here: linkI'm sorry but I haven't understood your answer! anyway If you need for comparison I can upload the tracks from the above 1988 promo cd... |
| The Real Wizard 21.08.2014 14:14 |
bootLuca wrote:I was just pointing to the possibility that someone could help with that bootleg CD with different versions of the songs.The Real Wizard wrote: Potential help here: linkI'm sorry but I haven't understood your answer! anyway If you need for comparison I can upload the tracks from the above 1988 promo cd... Absolutely, please upload the 1988 tracks so these fine fellows can check them out. |
| Barry Durex 21.08.2014 16:46 |
Where is OwenSmith? |
| JonSnooks 31.12.2014 00:11 |
I don't know how much help I can be except to say that I had a home recording of Alan Freeman's last Saturday afternoon Rock show on Radio One and he played this version of WWRY from the session. Sadly I've lost it but if I remember correctly (and I played it many times) there was no mention of quadrophonic and no audience sound. After he played it he said something like "Not 'arf. I thought that was rather good, as a matter of fact I thought it was" then Queen was dubbed in singing "Ooo-Ooo take my breath away" |
| OwenSmith 07.01.2015 07:51 |
Barry Durex wrote: Where is OwenSmith?OwenSmith is annoyed that queenzone doesn't email him when someone replies to his postings. I'll read the rest of what was posted shortly. |
| OwenSmith 07.01.2015 07:53 |
Barry Durex wrote: Also, the King Biscuit version of WWRY I mentioned does not have any audience dubbed. Looking through some old posts it looks like owenSmith has this version, so has probably had his contact check it for quad already.I have the King Biscuit CD myself, WWRY has been checked and is not encoded. |
| OwenSmith 07.01.2015 07:58 |
Barry Durex wrote: I still say it might be worth checking Royal Rarities for quad. Sounds like a decent transfer to me.I agree these tracks are worth checking for Matrix H encoding. The issue now is where can I get hold of a copy. Is it anywhere on QueenZone? A lot of bootlegs have been ripped and uploaded. |
| OwenSmith 07.01.2015 08:00 |
bootLuca wrote: I'm sorry but I haven't understood your answer! anyway If you need for comparison I can upload the tracks from the above 1988 promo cd...Please upload these four tracks from your promo CD and I'll get them checked for Matrix H encoding. |
| OwenSmith 07.01.2015 19:33 |
bootLuca wrote:Did this upload ever happen? In lossless please.The Real Wizard wrote: Potential help here: linkI'm sorry but I haven't understood your answer! anyway If you need for comparison I can upload the tracks from the above 1988 promo cd... |
| bootLuca 07.01.2015 23:22 |
here: link and here: link |
| Barry Durex 08.01.2015 10:23 |
Does anyone have the Royal Rarities silvers yet? There was a 3 and 5 CD set. Flacs would be nice. |
| DJGreg 23.01.2015 14:20 |
I've ripped the whole session from the concertvault.com site, though it's in mp3 320 CBR, sound is much better, than FLAC's that were released here. It's from the original master tapes, I guess. Here it is. |
| OwenSmith 27.01.2015 17:14 |
DJGreg wrote: I've ripped the whole session from the concertvault.com site, though it's in mp3 320 CBR, sound is much better, than FLAC's that were released here. It's from the original master tapes, I guess. Here it is.Thanks, I should be able to download it this weekend. I also bought a promo LP that might have what I'm looking for on it, but it's a long shot. |
| Barry Durex 04.08.2015 17:35 |
Has the 2014 radio 2 broadcast been checked? It was shared on TTD in Flac. |
| MercurialFreddie 26.08.2015 17:01 |
Bump. |
| OwenSmith 01.11.2015 15:55 |
OBarry Durex wrote: Has the 2014 radio 2 broadcast been checked? It was shared on TTD in Flac.What is TTD? I've tried a number of sources and all have been the standard mixes, sometimes with the horrible audience noise added. None have been Matrix H encoded, including copies claimed to come from Royal Rarities (or whatever it was called). I think they just put Alan Freeman's name on because they thought it would sell more copies, but actually they're the KBFH butchered with fake crowd noise versions of the normal studio tracks. |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2015 02:24 |
OwenSmith wrote: What is TTD?link Excellent website for unreleased music. |
| Barry Durex 02.11.2015 04:23 |
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| . 07.10.2016 07:40 |
The King Biscuit Flower Hour (DIR Radio Network) broadcast on August 7th 1988 was not a quad broadcast. However, a discrete 4-channel quad reel WAS used for a broadcast on December 3rd 1978 (check link below) http://www.eclipse67.com/kbi.htm |
| . 09.10.2016 06:47 |
A little more info that might be of interest. In 2006, the King Biscuit tape archives were acquired by Wolfgang's Vault. They began streaming concerts online and made some available for download, including: link |
| . 08.07.2019 12:44 |
Owen, I found a copy of a Quad Matrix H broadcast featuring some tracks from session 6, and have a file you might want to look at. |
| OwenSmith 08.07.2019 21:47 |
I'm checking a few things, will get back to you. This is the best lead I've see for this however. |
| . 08.07.2019 23:57 |
I have checked the 26/11/77 recording and Alan Freeman mentions that the broadcast is indeed going out using Quad Matrix H. I'm going to email my contact at the BBC to check if it's in their archive. link |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 00:19 |
I thought you had a copy yourself? |
| . 09.07.2019 00:49 |
Yes I do, but I always check with them in case I have something they might want for their archive. WWRY fast/slow features in the broadcast, and like I said I can send you a file of that if you want it. I have some other BBC quad matrix H broadcasts and will check the content to see if any more tracks are featured from session 6. From what I can make out it MAY be that not ALL the tracks broadcast during any one show are in quad, it may be just a selection. |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 08:43 |
I've been asked by my quad decoding friend about the provenance. Do you know where it was sourced from eg. FM off air (and recorded on what), pre FM reel, transcription disc etc. And is your copy lossless or has it suffered from MP3 or other lossy encoding? Matrix H is difficult enough to decode at the best of times, so if it has been through MP3 or recorded off air on cassette that could make things difficul, |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 08:47 |
I'd PM you but the forum software appears to be bust. If I click on your name I just get an error, same for everyone else's name. If I try to login in it fails, I can't edit any of my existing posts. Usual broken-ness on this place. |
| . 09.07.2019 09:18 |
I sent you a pm, let me know if you got it. You must already be logged in if you can post on forum. Click on members and then personal messages. |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 12:31 |
Members -> Your email takes me to the login screen. Yes it is odd that I can post messages but can't read or send PMs. Nor can I edit my posts. I'm half logged in and half not. |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 12:32 |
Oh and attempting to login with what I know is my username and password fails. |
| . 09.07.2019 13:00 |
That's a bummer, are you by any chance registered at The Traders' Den? |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 16:21 |
My work PC claims to be logged in. This is a brand new PC that I have never used for QueenZone. Having logged it out and back in again I can now get to my PMs here, but there is no PM from you. |
| OwenSmith 09.07.2019 16:25 |
It seems to send a PM I have to a) log out and back in again, and b) type your name because clicking on it in a post does not work. I have sent you a PM with my email address in it, let's get this off queenzone's broken software. |
| . 09.07.2019 17:46 |
File links sent in email. |
| The Real Wizard 10.07.2019 15:11 |
How to access PMs with a single click. The icons have been missing for ages, but the links still work if you mouse over them. |
| OwenSmith 12.07.2019 13:09 |
My friend has downloaded and looked at the track and has the following to say: Had a chance this morning to look at the file, and I'm afraid there's no Matrix H anywhere ?? To start with, during both files does Fluff make any mention of the Queen track being in Matrix H, only the 3 (it was normally 3) Matrix H tracks that were mentioned in the intro. I actually remember this show, I listened/recorded to all of them, it was rare to more than one band in Quad per show unless it was a special, like the Christmas show. But I didn't just go by that, I checked out both files and found that a) they were originally mp3, or some other destructive data compression, and b) the songs themselves appear to be in mono! There are signs of stereo but only during Fluffs jingles. Now that is odd!!! So it looks as though the search for the Holy Grail continues. If only i could gain access to the BBC's library to track down these (almost) lost gems. Oh, thanks for allowing access for testing purposes. |
| . 12.07.2019 13:40 |
No problem, I'll post any other info I get on this thread. |
| . 20.07.2019 22:43 |
The BBC got back to me and they do not have the Alan Freeman show from November 26th 1977 in their archive, but that's not so important now. Having checked through a lot of Alan Freeman's Matrix H broadcasts, all I found was the We Will Rock You (slow/fast) track from session 6. Although the broadcast featured Phil Manzanera in Matrix H, it's now clear that the Queen session 6 track was not part of the quad sequence. link Four Queen album tracks were played by Jonathan King on January 2nd 1978 (part of that broadcast was in Matrix H). These tracks were from the "News Of The World" album and not from the 1977 BBC sessions. link The four "album tracks" played are listed here - See Jonathan King Rules on January 2nd 1978. link I have requested the track listing for this Alan Freeman Matrix H broadcast on January 28th 1978. link |
| . 23.07.2019 12:32 |
I received the following reply from the BBC today regarding the Alan Freeman Matrix H broadcast on January 28th 1978: The session material used in the programme was as follows: The Rods (repeat of 12/11/77 – “Life on the Line”) Queen (repeat of 03/12/77 – “It’s Late” and 10/12/77 – “Melancholy Blues”) John Martyn – “Small Hours” Graham Parker and the Rumour – “Watch the Moon Come Down” Rezillos – “Top of the Pops” Siouxsie and the Banshees – “Love in a Voi Tracks by the following artists were also played: The Edgar Winter Group (“Frankenstein”/“Bull Fight and Toreador’s Song” - part of theme tune with “At the Sign of the Swinging Symbol”? It’s played at beginning and end, and is only a few seconds each time) Manfred Mann’s Earth Band Bob Dylan XTC Bill Bruford Starcastle Rush David Sancious Santana Pink Floyd George Harrison Hot Snax Jimi Hendrix Hank C. Burnette Roxy Music I hope this helps, Kind regards |
| . 23.07.2019 22:07 |
A follow on email from them reveals that their paperwork does not specify which tracks are in Matrix H, and that it looks like it was a live broadcast and is not in their archive. |