| rhyeking 16.06.2010 12:30 |
In light of the recent discussions around the quality of the different remasters that have been issued, I've been tinkering with my collection, trying to find the The Best versions of each album track. The recent Singles Collections appear to have the best sounding, properly balanced, not too loud, not too soft range. I invite Expert opinions and Average Joe opinions. And I know some people out there don't have every single release and remaster made available over the years,so maybe this will help some fans know where to look. For those who are curious, here is a list of the various masters and remasters issued since 1991: 1991 Hollywood Records (US) (Queen to The Miracle) 1991 Original Album Master = Innuendo 1994 Digital Master Series (UK) (Queen to Innuendo) 1995 Original Album Master = Made In Heaven 1998 Crown Jewels LP Reproductions (US) (Queen to The Game) 2001 Japanese LP Reproductions (Japan) (Queen to Made In Heaven) 2005 30th Anniversay Remaster = A Night At The Opera 2008 Original album Master = The Cosmos Rocks 2008 Singles Collection 1 (New Remastered tracks) 2009 Absolute Greatest (New Remastered tracks) 2009 Singles Collection 2 (New Remastered tracks) 2010 Singles Collection 3 (New Remastered tracks) Let's start at the beginning: Queen (the debut album) 01) Keep Yourself Alive (2008 Singles Collection Remaster) 02) Doing All Right (1991 Hollywood Records Remaster) 03) Great King Rat (1991 HR) 04) My Fairy King (1991 HR) 06) Liar (1991 HR) 07) The Night Comes Down (1991 HR) 08) Modern Times Rock and Roll (1991 HR) 09) Son And Daughter (2008 SC) 10) Seven Seas Of Rhye...(1991 HR) bonus tracks 11) Mad The Swine (1991 HR) 12) Keep Yourself Alive (Long Lost Re-Take) (1998 Crown Jewels Promo Sampler) Because there was only the "Keep Yourself Alive" single which has seen any re-issuing (Oh, poor "Liar." you're so neglected, robbing us of a newly remastered "Doing All Right") Compare that to The Miracle album: 01) Party (1991 HR) 02) Khashoggi's ship (1991 HR) 03) The Miracle (1991 HR) 04) Want It All (2001 JLP) 05) Breakthru (2010 SC) 06) The Invisible Man (2010 SC) 07) Rain Must Fall (1991 HR) 08) Scandal (2010 SC) 09) My Baby Does Me (1991 HR) 10) Was It All Worth It (1991 HR) bonus tracks 11) Hang On In There (2010 SC) 12) Chinese Torture (1991 HR) 13) Stealin' (2010 SC) 14) Hijack My Heart (2010 SC) 15) My Life Has Been Saved (2010 SC) Shall we tackle the rest? |
| JacquesDaniels 17.06.2010 06:54 |
I'm not sure I agree with everything right there. Specifically, "My Fairy King" from the 1991 HR version. Might be just my disc, but there's a weird glitch right at the end of the song, where the sound goes weird for a few seconds and comes back to "normal" a bit after the last crash cymbal hit from Rog. Sadly, I only got a "Fame" re-release of the vinyl as an option to listen to, which I still prefer, because it sounds alright all the way. But I've heard the 1994 Parlophone/EMI remaster, and it's worse overall than the 1991 HR version, except for that glitch on my copy. Again, might be just my copy, I dunno. Does anyone else have this glitch? |
| joesilvey 17.06.2010 07:39 |
My preferred version of the debut album is from the Crown Jewels set (1998 remasters, also by Peter Mew at Abbey Road, interestingly) and there's no drop-out glitch at the end of My Fairy King on it... |
| rhyeking 17.06.2010 10:52 |
I'm not sure what you mean by "drop out glitch." After the last cymbal crash, at about 3:52, the guitar note is left to die out, there's a moment of near silence, then the guitar and piano have little coda to finish the song. After Roger hits a pair of cymbals for the last time (his timing on one is a bit off), I can hear his drumstick tap together faintly. That's all I'm hearing at the end of the song. |
| Wiley 17.06.2010 11:14 |
What would everybody think the best Remaster from "Yeah" (12th track in MIH) be? There are obvious differences, as I'm sure most of us have noticed. The 2001 remaster is highly compressed to the point that the "h" is barely audible! (I'm sure someone will do a frequence analysis of the track after reading this post) :P |
| JacquesDaniels 17.06.2010 18:20 |
I uploaded the Fairy clip to Mediafire, though I don't know if it works - never used Mediafire before. Here's the link which it gave me anyway: link The glitch is about 4 seconds long there, you should hear it rather clearly. My vinyl sounds much clearer. |
| rhyeking 17.06.2010 19:03 |
Okay, maybe I'm thick. I like to think I'm not, but we're all human... What am I hearing that is the glitch? There's the crescendo (the frantic building up) topped with two cymbal crashes and Brian's guitar carrying a over, over a slight pause, then the guitar and piano come back in. If you could upload the "correct" version, a clip WITHOUT the glitch, I'd have something to compare it to. I don't have my record player available to listen to the vinyl version and I don't own the later remasters of this album. I REALLY am dying to hear what you're hearing! Help a brother out. |
| joesilvey 17.06.2010 19:12 |
JacquesDaniels wrote: I uploaded the Fairy clip to Mediafire, though I don't know if it works - never used Mediafire before. Here's the link which it gave me anyway: link The glitch is about 4 seconds long there, you should hear it rather clearly. My vinyl sounds much clearer. i don't hear any dropout, glitch, or mastering error of any kind on this clip... seems to me that this is just the very loose way the recording ended... |
| rhyeking 17.06.2010 19:38 |
I agree with Joe. It sounds fine to me. The clip posted sounds the same as the version I have on my Hollywood Records 1991 CD, both are as I described. This reminds of a time a friend of mine said someone told him the doorslam after "Goodbye, Ma!" in "Loser In The End" was a glitch. I was like, "It sounds like a door slamming shut, as if the son is leaving home." He was like, "That's what I thought, too!" For the record, it IS a door slamming sound, NOT a glitch. |
| rhyeking 17.06.2010 22:23 |
Speaking of Queen II, here's my look at it.. I do have the 2001 Japanese remasters from the LP reproduction and it's what mostly gets used. This brings me to a point unique to the first few albums. The segued tracks, which make up a good portion of each side. Different remasters place the tracks' seperations pints at, well, different points. This was quite noticable between the Hollywood Records and Japanese LP Reproduction remasters. 01) Procession (2001 JLP) 02) Father To Son (2001 JLP) 03) White Queen (2001 JLP)* 04) Some Day One Day (2001 JLP) 05) Loser In The End (2001 JLP) 06) Ogre Battle (2001 JLP) 07) The Fairy Feller's Master-Stroke (2001 JLP) 08) Nevermore (2001 JLP) 09) The March Of The Black Queen (2001 JLP) 10) Funny How Love Is (2001 JLP) 11) The Seven Seas Of Rhye (2008 SC) bonus track 12) See What A Fool I've Been (2008 SC) Again, not much wiggle room. * I'd love to use the 2008 Singles Collection remaster of "White Queen" but unless I get into serious cutting and pasting to maintain the proper seguing between tracks, it sounds choppy to include it as it's missing part of the segue, being mixed as a stand-alone track. Doing two albums a post, just to keep things moving, here's Sheer Heart Attack: 01) Brighton Rock (1998 CJ) 02) Killer Queen (2008 SC) 03) Tenement Funster (1998 CJ)* 04) Flick Of The Wrist (1998 CJ)* 05) Lily Of The Valley (1998 CJ)* 06) Now I'm Here (2008 SC) 07) In The Lap Of The Gods (1998 CJ) 08) Stone Cold Crazy (1998 CJ) 09) Dear Friends (1998 CJ) 10) Misfire (1998 CJ) 11) Bring Back That Leroy Brown (1998 CJ) 12) She Makes Me (1998 CJ) 13) In The Lap Of The Gods...Revisited (1998 CJ) * Same issue as with Queen II, the segues are lost with the Single Versions, despite the superior remastering done for the Singles Collection. Oh well. |
| Projector Freddie 18.06.2010 00:14 |
if anyone wants to secretly email me the 2010 breakthru singles collection remaster, my email address is zackbrown1@cox.net please? |
| pittrek 18.06.2010 00:37 |
rhyking - what is CJ ??? |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 00:42 |
Oh, sorry... 1998 CJ = 1998 Crown Jewels boxed set remasters. The first post lists the different series of remasters issued since 1991. I tried to abbreviate them for easy descriptions. |
| pittrek 18.06.2010 00:51 |
rhyeking wrote: Oh, sorry... 1998 CJ = 1998 Crown Jewels boxed set remasters. The first post lists the different series of remasters issued since 1991. I tried to abbreviate them for easy descriptions.Thanks. I always thought that they simply used the Abbey Road remasters, good (?) to know that they remastered it again |
| JacquesDaniels 18.06.2010 02:20 |
Sorry, can't send the other version quite yet, I'll be away for the whole weekend so I'll get back on the subject on Sunday. It's just that, to me, those 4 seconds in the clip go a bit tinny or something very strange, because the crash cymbal sort of "clicks" back into it's ordinary sound midway through it's final hit, like some part of the original master tape was a bit too worn, I dunno. I'll send the other clip on Sunday. |
| brians wig 18.06.2010 04:26 |
I didn't even know that they'd been remastered for the Crown Jewels set in 1998, but what kind of remastering did they get? Saying it's an LP remaster would suggest someone took the original vinyl and just cleaned it up to de-hiss and de-crackle it.... ;) It REALLY IS about time all the albums were redone PROPERLY from the original tapes and re-released on CD as the final, once and for all, definitive versions. I just hope they don't piss about and take 3 or 4 years to release them all like they have with the new Vinyl sets. I also hope these would be considered "extras" to the release schedule, otherwise we'll be getting another few years of nothing new..... |
| joesilvey 18.06.2010 09:22 |
brians wig wrote: I didn't even know that they'd been remastered for the Crown Jewels set in 1998, but what kind of remastering did they get? Saying it's an LP remaster would suggest someone took the original vinyl and just cleaned it up to de-hiss and de-crackle it.... ;) It REALLY IS about time all the albums were redone PROPERLY from the original tapes and re-released on CD as the final, once and for all, definitive versions. I just hope they don't piss about and take 3 or 4 years to release them all like they have with the new Vinyl sets. I also hope these would be considered "extras" to the release schedule, otherwise we'll be getting another few years of nothing new..... The Crown Jewels booklet says all tracks were 24-bit remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road studios, for the 1998 CJ release. As far as I know, these versions were not utilized again anywhere else. Now, the VINYL remasters are different - not because they de-clicked and cleaned up the audio from a vinyl source. It still begins with the original master sourced audio, but what is done to the audio (EQing, compression & limiting) is dfferent, taking into consideration it will be copied to vinyl. There's actually a lot of debate as to whether that's even necessary. I've heard vinyl that sounded much different than the same music on CD (better), and i've heard vinyl that sounded exactly like the cd (playing over some pops & clicks). There's no scientific proof that the dynamic range is better or broader with vinyl. neither one is capable of an EXACT duplication of the master, and vinyl has further limitations because of how the stylus tracks the grooves imperfectly. for me, the point is - if remasters are done well, the resulting audio should sound great on a CD or a vinyl record, and the Singles Collections are certainly that... |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 12:31 |
1991 Hollywood Records Remaster Series (US) Kevin Metcalf, at Town House Studios: Sheer Heart Attack, A Day At The Races, News Of The World, Hot Space Stephen Marcussen, at Precision Mastering: A Night At The Opera, Flash Gordon Eddy Screyer, at Future Disc Systems: Queen, Queen II, Jazz, Live Killers, The Game, The Works, A Kind Of Magic, The Miracle 1994 Digital Master Series (UK) Honestly, I don't much about this Series, other than the following: - Queen through Innuendo were issued - These remasters were used on all the Parlophone Made In Heaven B-sides, including the Fat Bottomed Girls "glitch" version. Can anyone tell me if the 1994 DMS Jazz album has this glitch also? - These Remasters were used for Queen Rocks, which also has this glitch on "FBG". - According to the Queen Rocks sleeve notes, it's mastering was done by Kevin Metcalf, but it's unclear if he did the entire catalogue or just this collection. 1998 Crown Jewels LP Reproduction CDs (Boxed Set) (US) - Queen through The Game - Remastered by Peter Mew, at Abbey Road Studios - Curiously, "Keep Yourself Alive (Long Lost Re-Take)" was remastered at this point as well, appearing as the first track on the Crown Jewels Promo Sampler CD. It sounds only ever-so-slightly better than the 1991 HR remaster, but not by much. 2001 Queen Digital Remasters Series(Japan)/2004 Japanese LP Reproduction CD (Japan) Sorry, in my previous posts my brain froze and I sort of melded these releases together, probably because they do use the same Remasters. Also, this is where things get interesting, as we learn: - Queen through Made In Heaven - this new batch was also done by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios - These tracks were used for Greatest Hits: 'We Will Rock You" Edition (US) - Peter Mew also remastered the various Single Versions and Live Versions which appear on that collection. 2008 Absolute Greatest collection It's not a series, just the collection, but it does feature an exclusive set of remastered tracks, by Bob Ludwig. 2008,2009,2010 Singles Collections (Volumes 1 to 3) Yeah, I'm grouping them together for ease of posting. You'll see why: - Peter Mew did these collections as well, seemingly now being Queen Productions "go to" guy at Abbey Road. |
| joesilvey 18.06.2010 12:45 |
great summation of info, Rhye... so could it be that Peter Mew's remasters for the CJ set in 1998 were utilized as-is for the 2001 Japan remasters (obviously only for Queen through The Game)? also, not to jump the gun, but i've heard many opinions that the best sounding Innuendo tracks are the 1991 HR edition. I have the 2001 Japan remaster, but i got rid of my HR version. Pretty sure I did an A/B comparison test (I usually do before I sell off a previous edition to replace with a remaster) and must have decided the JP was better... opinions, thoughts? if i have to wait 'til we get there in sequence, i shall (arms crossed, looking around, tapping foot...) |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 13:35 |
When I was compiling the details of the various remaster series, it was the first time I really examined who the different people were and when they did the job. It crossed my mind that Peter Mew might have re-used the 1998 CJ remasters for the 2001 and 2004 re-issues, but that doesn't appear to be the case, despite the same guy doing it (Peter Mew) at the same location (Abbey Road). From what promotional material I found online, advertising each new release, it was repeated throughout, to paraphrase: "newly remastered by Peter Mew in 2001 at Abbey Road Studio" It COULD be that this is one piece of wrong information repeated over and over. Or not. Out of curiousity, I did an A/B test, comparing the 1998 Killer Queen (from Sheer Heart Attack CJ remaster) to the 2001 Killer Queen (from the Japan Digital Remaster Series "Greatest Hits 1"). Funny enough, I could hear no difference. Then I did an A/B (B/C?) test with the 2004 Killer Queen (from the Greatest Hits: WWRY Ed.). All three sound pretty much the same. This could tell us something...or it could tell us nothing. Just because the track was remastered a second time doesn't mean he'd achieve a different result. However, I also compared the 2008 Singles Collection remaster to the rest and found a warmer, but just as clear, sound, which to my ear is the best remaster of the song so far. What did I learn from this? Not much. As I said, he could have achieved the same result repeatedly before something in his technique, metaphoric ear, or the technology changed, allowing for a better result. Also, comparing one track does not a valid sample pool make. |
| brians wig 19.06.2010 04:33 |
joesilvey wrote: Also, not to jump the gun, but i've heard many opinions that the best sounding Innuendo tracks are the 1991 HR edition. I have the 2001 Japan remaster, but i got rid of my HR version. Pretty sure I did an A/B comparison test (I usually do before I sell off a previous edition to replace with a remaster) and must have decided the JP was better... opinions, thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Innuendo is a funny old monster. Naturally i never bought the HR version of this - surely it would have been the same release as the UK version. I did get the Japanese remaster though and I do think that some of the songs sound better than the UK release, but not all of them. Again, it's one for people who are audiophile enough to listen to all the versions and tell us which tracks to use to make up a definative version... |
| brians wig 19.06.2010 04:43 |
rhyeking wrote: Speaking of Queen II, here's my look at it.. I do have the 2001 Japanese remasters from the LP reproduction and it's what mostly gets used. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really? Queen II is my favorite album and has been since I discovered it over 20 years ago. I have both the HR version and the Jap version and while the Jap version seems a bit more punchier and has more bass, it loses out on the little intricacies that I can hear on the HR version - you know, the cowbells and other delicate instruments. One other thing to look out for is actually comparing the wav forms. You'll find that the HR aren't whacked up full and compressed like the Jap ones are, which is why I can still hear the delicate stuff. When i'm driving, I tend to listen to the Jap remasters but when the mood takes me and I want to listen via my Alessandro headphones, i listen to the HR remasters (cock-ups and all). |
| brians wig 19.06.2010 04:52 |
FAO Joe Silvey Joseph, Sinc e I can't PM you due to current faults with QZ, is there any chance you could post a screengrab comparison of wav files of any Queen song taken from the Crown Jewels set and it's counterpart from, say, the japanese remaster please? Then we can all see if the CJ sets have been whacked up full and compressed! Thanks |
| joesilvey 19.06.2010 10:14 |
brians wig wrote: FAO Joe Silvey Joseph, Sinc e I can't PM you due to current faults with QZ, is there any chance you could post a screengrab comparison of wav files of any Queen song taken from the Crown Jewels set and it's counterpart from, say, the japanese remaster please? Then we can all see if the CJ sets have been whacked up full and compressed! Thanks .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Okay - as it turns out, I don't have JP remasters for any of the albums included in the Crown Jewels set. So, instead, since you're a big fan of Queen II, here are screenshots of the waveforms for (3) versions I have of Seven Seas of Rhye: Crown Jewels, Absolute Greatest, and Singles Collection 1. They are definitely three different remasters, but the amount of dynamic compression on AG is the most obvious point. SC maintained a good dynamic range, but seems to have added a little compression over the CJ version. Getting ready to go out for a bit, but perhaps later I can do an A/B/C listening test. Anyone with the JP remaster of Queen II, would love to see a screenshot of that wavefile as well... Crown Jewels version |
| joesilvey 19.06.2010 10:15 |
Absolute Greatest version |
| joesilvey 19.06.2010 10:15 |
Singles Collection version |
| brians wig 19.06.2010 17:03 |
That's exactly what I was hoping to see. Thanks Joseph. If only I could open them though without getting error messages (Bloody Queenzone problems) |
| rhyeking 19.06.2010 21:34 |
This Queen II discussion is EXACTLY why I started this thread, to get a comparative opinions on the best remasters. I've always respected the Hollywood Records remasters, they're among the best. And the name of this thread is: The Best Remasters, track by track...it's not about my personal favourites. I just list mine as a point where we can start discussions. I'm willing to agree that Hollywood Records' 1991 re-issues rival the later remasters. Is there a concensus that the HR versions are better? Any views to the contrary? |
| joesilvey 20.06.2010 00:04 |
Okay - since the 91 Hollywood remasters were missing from my prior example (and sorry, but the JP 2001 remasters will be missing from this one as well)... let's look at the wav forms from (4) versions of Under Pressure... again, clearly four different remasters, different levels of dynamic compression for each. But i still haven't done an A-B-C-(D) listening test to see which version my EARS preferred. I think in some cases, it's context. In my car, on the highway, where there is regular present road-noise, i'd prefer the Bob Ludwig masters from Absolute Greatest: balanced loudness, highs are punchy, subtleties brought up to audible levels. Then ideally, in my quiet living room with my audiophile stereo setup, i like the Singles Collection masters... but that's because I can have the quiet parts turned up to be heard, and the loud(er) parts envelop you like a hurricane. It's experiential. I understand Innuendo is a funny beast of its own... almost makes me want to re-buy a copy of the HR 91 version to comare with what i have and the eventual Singles Collection 4... anyway, for your review - here's Under Pressure - first, HR 1991 cd edition... |
| joesilvey 20.06.2010 00:06 |
HR 2002 Platinum Collection Greatest Hits 2 version - Under Pressure |
| joesilvey 20.06.2010 00:07 |
Absolute Greatest - Under Pressure |
| joesilvey 20.06.2010 00:09 |
Singles Collection - Under Pressure |
| pittrek 20.06.2010 03:10 |
Hey Joe, I can't open any of your attachments. Could you upload them to something like link ? |
| brians wig 20.06.2010 03:29 |
Joseph. The PM function doesn't work for me, so could you please email me on pootle50@hotmail.com ? Thanks. |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 10:12 |
I appreciate that you're presenting this "Under Pressure" info for comparative study, but the version from Greatest Hits II is an edit. It's remaster, good or bad, wouldn't qualify for inclusion on a remastered Hot Space album, since it isn't the complete song, which is a similar problem we encounter looking at the excellent remasters of tracks like "White Queen," and "Tenement Funster" from the Singles Collection. That said, I'm not certain which remasters were used for the Gold and Platinum Collections. I'm tempted to say it was the 1994 Digital Master Series, since the Gold came out in 1994 and the Platinum came out in 2000 (which would simply allow for re-using the Gold masters and Hits III was likely created from the 1994 DMS remasters* in 1999). *However, Greatest Hits III should eventually be given its own analaysis, as it features not just Queen tracks, but solo recordings and new recordings and remixes. I'll make that a future post. Let's take a look at Hot Space, while we're on the subject of "Under Pressure": 01) Staying Power (2009 SC) 02) Dancer (1991 HR) 03) Back Chat (1991 HR) 04) Body Language (2009 SC) 05) Action This Day (1991 HR) 06) Put Out The Fire (2009 SC) 07) Life Is Real (2009 SC) 08) Calling All Girls (2009 SC) 09) Las Palabras De Amar (2009 SC) 10) Cool Cat (2009 SC) 11) Under Pressure (2009 SC) bonus track 12) Soul Brother (2009 SC) And keeping with two albums per post, here's A Night At The Opera: 01) Death On Two Legs (2008 SC) 02) Lazing On A Sunday Afternoon (2005 30th Anniversary Remaster) 03) I'm In Love With My Car (2005 AR) 04) You're My Best Friend (2008 SC) 05) '39 (2008 SC) 06) Sweet Lady (2005 AR) 07) Seaside Rendezvous (2005 AR) 08) The Prophet's Song (2005 AR) 09) Love Of My Life (2005 AR) 10) Good Company (2005 AR) 11) Bohemian Rhapsody (2008 SC) 12) God Save The Queen (2005 AR) Here you'll see it came down to a mix of two different remasters, with the Singles Collections proving (for me) to be the better ones to use where applicable. Incidently, the 30th Anniversary ANATO was remastered by our pal Bob Ludwig, who also did the Absolute Greatest collection. |
| JacquesDaniels 20.06.2010 10:48 |
Okay, here's the vinyl version. I know it sounds bad because, clearly, it's a very used vinyl, but you can't hear the weird change in the drum section as it happens in the CD rip. link I checked the 1994 remaster version during the weekend as well, and it did have the same glitch as the Hollywood release, so I don't really know if the problem is just that my ears are trying to find what there should be instead of what was released, or that all the remasters are shite. Of course, it might be that I'm going slightly mad. |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 11:42 |
Hmm, the last cymbal crash on the HR remaster sounds more pronounced and "sharper," than the vinyl version.I think this is what you're hearing as a "glitch," because in that moment it sort of overpowers the guitar. This could be the result of: a) the difference between a 1973 analogue source (vinyl) and a 1991 digital source (CD) b) the "improvement" of the 1991 remaster over the original 1973 album master or c) the cymbal was always loud and got lost in the "less-clear" 1973 master. I guess it comes down to asthetics, similar to the Vinyl over CD War still raging. Here, we have a difference, but it's hard to determine what it is a result of. I don't think its "glitch" the way the 1991 HR "Crazy Little Thing" has a brief "sticky" bit at the beginning of the track or Queen Rocks' glitch in "FBG". |
| JacquesDaniels 20.06.2010 13:34 |
Just to make sure: I was talking about the ca. 4 seconds that starts at the beginning of the last 4 16th notes to snare or one of the toms that Roger plays, up to ca. 1 second after the last crash cymbal hit. Not the last hit itself. Anyway. To the other remasters I have no clear preference, except that any remaster that I've heard has been better than the original vinyl and CD release. Can't be bothered to buy everything more than once. I just like the Hollywood remasters more because of the occasional extra b-side bonus. =P |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 13:56 |
In that case, I still can't hear what you're hearing. Brian bends his note over the cymbal crash and it carries for a few seconds. It's the way he plays, not a glitch. If that's not what you're talking about, then I can't offer any more thoughts. It's either all in your head or beyond my ear to hear it. Sorry. |
| JacquesDaniels 20.06.2010 15:18 |
Again, it's not Brian. It's the drum track that's bad. Anyway, I've sent the two clips to our touring mixer to get a properly analyzed comment, should be in my mail tomorrow. edit: I just checked the version on Spotify. Sounds better there. |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 18:29 |
The drums? The drums stop at the first cymbal crash. There's no percussion after the second cymbal crash. In your clip, in the 1991 HR remaster I can actually make out the drums better in the build up to the cymbals. Again, nothing, to my ear, sounds off, delayed, glitchy or anything out of the ordinary. For the record, I'm a profession theatre tech (anong other things), with years of experience mixing sound, balancing and equalizing musicians and singers. My ear may not be that of an orchestra conductor, but it's pretty reliable. Let me know what your tour audio guy thinks. |
| joesilvey 20.06.2010 22:00 |
Pittrek - email me at jsilvey@renn.com and i can send you the images... |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 22:13 |
I can't believe it took me this long to understand the value of liner notes, that they can be used for things other than lyrics and listing who's in the band...crazy! One of these days, possibly to sum up this thread, I'll put a list together of who mastered/remastered what, when and where. Anyhoo, here's some Queen and Solo mastering facts to add to the pile: 1988 - Kevin Metcalf did the Original Album Master for Barcelona 1992 - Eddy Schreyer Remastered Barcelona for Hollywood Records (US) & Polydor (UK), and likely their 1992 Barcelona-related re-issue singles (can anyone take a look at one of the singles and see?) 1992 - Eddy Schreyer Digitally Mastered The Great Pretender (US) & The Freddie Mercury Album (UK) 1992 - Kevin Metcalf did the Original Album Master of Back To The Light 1999 - Kevin Metcalf Masters Queen+ Greatest Hits III* 2000 - Peter Mew Digitally Remasters everything on the FM Solo Collection boxed set EXCEPT for Barcelona and The Great Pretender, which use the 1992 Eddy Schreyer Re/Masters * Does this mean Greatest Hits III contains new (at the time) remasters of all the tracks? Or did Meltcalf take previous masters and balance them together? He received the same credit on Queen Rocks and we know those use the 1994 Digital Master Series remasters from the UK. Interestingly, The Very Best Of Freddie Mercury (2006) contains the oddest remaster credits of all: Tracks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19 Digitally remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios, London Tracks 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 16 Digitally remastered by Eddie Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood. Reading ALL the fine print (man, my eyes hurt now), it seems to be that these tracks use the 1992/2000 remasters which appear on the FM Solo Collection, with two exceptions: Track 17: "Love Kills (Star Rider Remix)" = Original 2006 Master Track 20: "Guide Me Home (Thierry Lang)" = Original 2000 Master (not that we care, it's a cover version) However... Here's the first oddity: Peter Mew gets the Remaster credit for the NEW 2006 Remix in the list, but not in the fine print. I have the CD single with this track, but it contains NO production credits for this track (and plenty for the other remixes). Did Peter Mew do the Star Rider Remix then? If so, cool. Here's the second oddity: Peter Mew gets the Remaster credit for Track 10 "Time," but the fine print specifically states its Production year as 1986 and does NOT list it as a remaster. Every other track says: Track (#) Digital remaster Produced (year) Original Sound Recording owned by...etc etc. For example: (for "In My Defence") Track 1 Digital remaster, Produced 2000, Original sound recording owned by Dave Clark Productions Ltd. (for "Time) Track 10, Produced 1986, Original sound recording owned by Dave Clark Productions Ltd. Every other track has "Digital Remaster" in front of the production year AND a production year of either 1992 or 2000 except the new remix, which is 2006 and THIS track. Odd. Okay, this post went on much longer than I intended. |
| brians wig 21.06.2010 03:17 |
LIVE KILLERS: Having (had) the original CD release, The HR release and the Japanese remaster, I can quite happily say that in this instance the Jap remaster is by far the superior sound. The HR version is flat and lifeless in comparison and the less said about the original 80's release the better! |
| rhyeking 21.06.2010 09:57 |
Okay, that's Live Killers brought into the mix. I can neither agree, nor disagree, BW, as I only have the 1991 HR remaster. I thought it sounded okay, but it was never my favourite live album, even though there are some great tracks on it. The Singles Collection offers us just one alternative remaster: "Now I'm Here" This is the only Live Single Version which is identical to the version which appears on the album. Since the concert was taken for different sources, as it appears on Live Killers, this song fades in at the beginning and fades out at the end. The other Live Single Versions/Edits which appear on Singles Collection (and their original singles) had fade ins and outs applied to them. So, if there are no objections, there's Live Killers taken care of. |
| joesilvey 21.06.2010 10:09 |
I'm going to be obtaining a copy of the Live Killers JP remaster (which i hear is far superior to the HR 1991 edition), so i'd like a chance to hear the comparison for myself before I weigh in on Live Killers... |
| bigV 21.06.2010 17:04 |
I have nothing productive to add to this topic except to say that I am enjoying it thoroughly :) V. |
| rhyeking 21.06.2010 20:18 |
BIG NEWS! What I'm sharing below challenges a few of our previous conclusions I emailed Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studio on Friday and asked the following: **** Hi Peter, I'm doing some research into the various remastering efforts made by Queen Productions over the years with Queen's catalogue of music. You are credited with remastering the following releases: 1998 - 25th Anniversary 'Crown Jewels' LP replica CDs 2001 - Japan's 'Queen Digital Remasters Series' 2004 - Japan's LP Reproduction CDs 2008 to 2010 - Singles Collection, Volumes 1, 2 & 3 I'd like to know whether each new release features a new remaster. Put another way, did you sit down and newly remaster the tracks, either with different equipment or a different approach, for each product? Also, were any of these remasters ever re-used for subsequent releases, meaning do two or more of the products listed feature the SAME remaster? I hope you can help clarify this for me and I thank you for your time. Sincerely, (rhyeking) *** Peter, being a pretty awesome guy, was gracious enough to reply: *** Hi (rhyeking) From Memory, I believe The 1998 and 2001 Remasters are different The 2004 release and singles collection are taken from the above 2 remasters, with new remasters of the tracks that do not feature on the 1998 or 2001 remasters The 2001 remaster was done at the request of the Japanese, and is a liitle more extreme than the 1998 set HTH cheers -pm *** Okay, let's take a moment to let that sink in (and no, I actually signed my real name, but subbed 'rhyeking' in here). (deep breath) What a guy! He didn't have to answer, but he did. Now, to examine what he told me... PM FACT: The 1998 Crown Jewels Remasters are different from the 2001 Japan Digital Remaster Series. What we knew before: The 2004 remasters are the same as the 2001 remasters. PM FACT: The Singles Collection is taken from the 1998 AND 2001 remasters, except for tracks not included in those releases. Well, that would be the non-album tracks and Single Versions. But...WOW...standard album tracks, like "Keep Yourself Alive" and "Killer Queen" are one of two possible remasters (1998 or 2001). How do we figure out which is which, without burying the man in requests to clarify each track? (And I recommend NOT asking him for a track by track breakdown, because Abbey Road's website actually subtly discouraged emails about individual band's work. That didn't stop me from asking and I'm impressed he took the time to reply, so let's not take advantage of his generous reply. It might make him less inclined to reply to future emails by people who looking for his expertise). And we may not need to ask that question, as he gives us a clue as to the differences between the 1998 and 2001 remasters. The 2001 Japanese remasters are, in his words, "a little more extreme." That ought to help distinguish the two as we continue. Personally, I'm not inclined to re-examine the albums we've covered soley based on this new info. It's possible that in selecting "alternate" remasters, we've really, unknowingly, just substituted the same remaster. It still comes down to the apparent differences and if it's the same one we arrive at the same place anyway: the Best Remaster of the track. The recent Singles Collections, though they use "older" remasters, still sound stunning and I'm going to still refer to them by their year and series, so we all know the SOURCE of the remaster I'm refering to) Thoughts? |
| joesilvey 21.06.2010 22:06 |
wow is right... great insight, and very gracious indeed of Mr. Mew to respond so openly to your inquiry. now, with no cynical intent whatsoever, simply pointing out... he did say "from memory, i believe" ... but let's give his memory the benefit of the doubt.... =) so, the tracks whose single versions are identical to the album version (the ones that, based on PM's email, appear on the Singles Collection in the form of their prior remasters, either 1998 or 2001) are the ones i'm interested to more critically research at the moment. correct me if i'm wrong (and believe me, i defer to many others here on intricate details of certain tracks' various versions, edits, etc) but isn't Seven Seas of Rhye (from Queen II) album version the same as the 7" single release version? If so, the screenshots I posted recently of it sampled from SC box and CJ box could, according to Peter Mew, be the same. They are not. THEREFORE, if his info is correct, i need to see a screenshot of SSOR from the 2001 JP remaster. If it's identical to the SC version, then we have confirmation. Because I can say as somewhat of an audiophile and experienced sound editor, SSOR on Singles Collection is definitively NOT the 1998 remaster. anyone with certain knowledge want to tackle listing for us the tracks on the Singles Collections that would fall into this 1998 or 2001 remaster sourced category? Having Crown Jewels (and soon to have the counterpart JP remasters) i can do the waveform analyses... just want to confirm beyond my own knowledge which ones are truly identical album/single versions to consider... |
| rhyeking 22.06.2010 00:20 |
Agreed. I'm sure the "Memory" remark was more along the lines of: "I don't have my notes and such in front of me, but off the top of my head, here's what I remember doing." (His email arrived in my box at about 11:15 AM. Adjusting for the the time difference, he fired it off at 4:15 PM his time, maybe near the end of his day). Afer that he gets pretty specific for such a short email. Here's a breakdown of the Singles Collection tracks and some tracks of interest from the 2001 Japan Remasters of Greatest Hits and Greatest Hits II (which were part of that series, remastered by Peter Mew) and the 2004 Hits:WWRY Edition (also by Mr. Mew). 1998 or 2001 remasters: 2008 remasters: Keep Yourself Alive White Queen (EP Version) Son And Daughter See What A Fool I've Been The Seven Seas Of Rhye Tenement Funster (EP Version) Killer Queen Flick Of The Wrist (UK Single Version) Now I'm Here Lily Of The Valley (UK Single Edit) Death On Two Legs I'm In Love With My Car (UK Single Version) Bohemian Rhapsody Tie Your Mother Down (Single Version) You're My Best Friend '39 Somebody To Love 2009 remasters: Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy Love Of My Life (Live - Single Version) We Will Rock You We Will Rock You (Live - Single Version) We Are The Champions Let Me Entertain You (Live - Single Version) Sheer Heart Attack A Human Body Spread Your Wings Back Chat (Single Re-mix) Bicycle Race I Go Crazy In Only Seven Days Don't Stop Me Now Now I'm Here (Live) 2004 Greatest Hits WWRY Ed. Remaster (by Miles Showell): Play The Game I'm In Love With My Car (UK Single Version) Another One Bites The Dust Crazy Little Thing Called Love Save Me 2010 Remasters: Thank God It's Christmas Blurred Vision 2001 Japan Remasters* A Dozen Red Roses For My Darling Teo Torriate (2001 Hits Re-issue Edit) Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (Single Remix) Flash Who Wants To Live Forever (Single Version) Football Fight Forever Staying Power Hang On In There Body Language Stealin' Put Out The Fire Hijack My Heart Life Is Real My Life Has Been Saved (Original Version) Calling All Girls Las Palabras De Amor Cool Cat Under Pressure Under Pressure (Hits II Edit) Radio Ga Ga Tear It Up It's A Hard Life Man On The Prowl Machines I Want To Break Free (Single Mix) Keep Passing The Open Windows Hammer To Fall (Headbangers' Edit) Is This The World We Created? One Vision (Single Version) A Kind Of Magic One Year Of Love Friends Will Be Friends Who Wants To Live Forever (Hits II Edit) Gimme The Prize Don't Lose Your Head Princes Of The Universe I Want It All (Single Version) The Invisible Man Breakthru Scandal I'm Going Slightly Mad (LP Version) Headlong (Single Version) * Presumably the 2001 Japan Remaster of Greatest Hits II features the minor edits (aka early fade outs) of the original UK Hits II. Also, because only Queen through to The Game were remastered in 1998, everything AFTER that is most definately the 2001 remasters. |
| joesilvey 22.06.2010 13:49 |
also agreed... thanks for this well-organized structure, Rhyeking... i'll do my wav reviews as i now have some of the early JP remasters, and begin to post my conclusions for the list of 1998 or 2001 remasters in the coming few days... |
| joesilvey 22.06.2010 18:33 |
@ Rhye - wouldn't Son And Daughter (KYA b-side on Singles Collection) be in the mix of 1998 or 2001 remasters as well? Or is it a version difference? my apologies if this is common knowledge - just striving to be thorough! :-D |
| rhyeking 22.06.2010 19:07 |
Oops... Yes, you're exactly right, sir. "Doing All Right" shouldn't be on that list as it wasn't on The Singles Collections. I'm going to correct it now. Those reading this list later, I accidently included "Doing All Right" on the list instead of "Son And Daughter." Call it a brain freeze or something, haha. Maybe I was thinking about the (not included) "Liar" single. |
| joesilvey 23.06.2010 00:45 |
Alright - i honestly expected to find nice clear results as i began my waveform comparisons (taking Peter Mew's words at full face value - and the following conclusion is not delivered with any sarcasm or disrespect to him AT ALL) but i don't think things are going to be so simple. Because of some home life issues, I only got to review one track in question this evening: Keep Yourself Alive (album/single version). I did direct encodes from the CD sources of Singles Collection I, 2001 Japan remaster of Queen album, and 1998 remaster for Crown Jewels, and compared waveforms. the one with the weakest overall peak volume level and perhaps the truest (broadest, perhaps is a better term) dynamic range: the 2001 Japanese remaster. the Crown Jewels remaster actually seems to have a very similar overall peak volume level, but clearly has moderate dynamic compression applied, as the "meat" of the waveform is bulked up throughout, bringing it closer to the peaks. not slightly, either. The Singles Collection version does seem to be closely derivative of the JP remaster, but it has the MOST dynamic compression of all three, with the peak volume levels (though there are only a few) nearly at the max of what the CD can record and reproduce. Now, it does also look as though it COULD be the JP remaster simply boosted - as is - to be louder ON the disc, without altering anything else in the mix/master. but... i would NOT say they are the same. Even without having done a sonic test, i can tell you these will sound different among the three. they are not identical matches, though again overall, the waveforms within the tracks themselves seem relatively very similar. If we had to conclude, with respect to PM's claim, that the SC master came from one of these other two sources, i'd happily concede that Keep Yourself Alive was derived from the 2001 JP remaster. HOWEVER, at LEAST a significant volume increase was added to the Singles Collection mastering process, perhaps more that my ears could contend upon further aural review. The point is... i'm gonna have to look as these track by track. =) or =( depending on the reader, i suppose. personally, i'm loving all this... |
| brians wig 23.06.2010 04:05 |
That's brilliant Joseph. Ironically, I did a comparison between the CJ & Jap remaster of 'Doing Alright' and they virtually look identical - again, one slightly higher peaks than the other. Whether this will follow suit with the other albums I don't know. I'm certainly interested in re-creating the albums using the best sounding versions available until such time as all the albums are remastered one final time as the definitive versions, but my only worry with this is that they'll all be compressed to make them punchier. While the AG remasters sound great, they're compressed as hell. Such a pity DTS Entertainment stopped with the surround mixes. I really thought we were getting somewhere with those, and Brian himself said that they were about to do Queen II when Mike Stone died :( ADDITION: Having just done an A-B listening comparison between the 1991 Hollywood Records remasters and the 1998 Crown jewels version of Queen II, I can certianly confirm that there is more sibilance on the CJ version - very noticable on "Loser In The End". The japanese remaster also has more sibilance than the HR version, but it's not as bad as the CJ version. Anybody care to listen to this track as well and confirm or deny my results? I don't know if it matters, but I've listened on my alessandro/Grado MS1's( 2009 versions) |
| joesilvey 23.06.2010 07:59 |
Now, for Son And Daughter... the least compressed is the Crown Jewels edition. Next is the JP remaster: slightly louder overall level, but some compression is evident as well. And again, the Singles Collection is yet another step up in loudness, and seems pretty clearly a different remaster (peaks in different places, and noticeably different "landscape" if you will, to the waveform. again - not saying Peter Mew doesn't know what's he's talking about - but perhaps the SC began with one of the 2 prior masters and just did a little more additional work on them than he remembers. Not sure, but it returns us to the point my pal Brians Wig makes above... this is a very subjective pursuit. I can't list a definitive "best available" versions compilation for any of you, any more than i could create a list of your favorite foods. Again, Brians Wig - completely agree that AG sounds HUGE and for the most part, I think great as well. But it is because it was mastered with a ton of compression on it to sound more like today's music and less like 1975's. =) Some have already voiced conflicting opinions within this very thread - a preference for one way or the other. So, i'll continue to analyze these (as I'd like to for myself) and post my findings on loudness and which, if any, are duplicate (re)mastered versions. But it's going to be up to us individually to create those definitive CD-Rs to treasure! At least we have a project while we're waiting another 10 years for the mythical anthologies!! |
| rhyeking 23.06.2010 10:19 |
Okay, it may sound like I'm rationalizing, but I like to think I'm reinterpreting the evidence provided (that from Peter Mew and that from Joe). PM says he did new remasters of tracks which didn't feature on either the 1998 or 2001 sets. However, by just going on his memory, this answer could have lead him to not account for redoing a such as "Son And Daughter." What I mean is, he is not nessecarily expected to be an expert on Queen and therefore specific tracks MAY have been remastered again for the Singles Collection and he didn't differentiate between it being a track he'd done previously. OR he had a reason to redo "Son And Daughter" (and maybe other tracks) in order to improve them, and just didn't get into that level of detail with his reply to me. Short of him providing a track by track account of which came from what remaster, we're still in the position of exploring each track individually, and at least have his statement to use to to help clarify any disputed findings. If we find evidence that indisputedly contradicts his account of events, I guess we accept that it falls into a grey area in his "from memory, I believe..." statement. Anyway, great job on taking on the waveform analysis. |
| joesilvey 24.06.2010 19:35 |
rhyeking wrote: PM says he did new remasters of tracks which didn't feature on either the 1998 or 2001 sets. However, by just going on his memory, this answer could have lead him to not account for redoing "Son And Daughter." What I mean is, he is not nessecarily expected to be an expert on Queen and therefore specific tracks MAY have been remastered again for the Singles Collection and he didn't differentiate between it being a track he'd done previously. OR he had a reason to redo "Son And Daughter" (and maybe other tracks) in order to improve them, and just didn't get into that level of detail with his reply to me. ..................................................................................................................................................................................................... I think the above is a good assessment of what info we have available to us. I agree that PM perhaps BEGAN with the best sounding remaster for each of the tracks that he'd previously done... but touching them up a bit further is hard to resist, especially 10 years later. Remastering is a myriad of things available, that MAY or MAY NOT be applied for a given project. The Beatles reportedly used hiss removal (which some feel can compromise the original master's high range too much) on their back catalog's recent remasters. but it was used for a total of something like 3 seconds of audio amongst the entire series. !! I can only hope that any future releases we might someday see (Brian's talk of 150-200 tracks, an anthology of some kind, whatever) might employ that kind of loving, respectful care to the music. It's certainly the spirit with which Queen originally recorded the material. so, my views on all that having been established - REestablished, if you will... we come to Seven Seas of Rhye: any of you that were able to download my screenshots already know about the Crown Jewels edition. It's a good, evenly loud master, yet with plenty of dynamic range available. The 2001 Japan is surprisingly similar. (again, thinking of PM's remarks about the JP versions being "more extreme" than the 1998's or something to that effect, is not especially evident with this particular track). Virtually no difference in peak levels throughout, and only a slight amount of additional compression within the "meat" of the waveform. By PM's email, THIS is the kind of close match I expected to see between previous remasters of these tracks and what he said was used again for the Singles Collection.... But the Singles Collection version is clearly boosted even further in terms of dynamic compression. Overall peaks are raised slightly, but the dynamic range of those previous remasters is not entirely lost. There is still a clear "mountain range" type landscape to the wave. It's not shelved across with max volume like AG is, by any means. The progression between the three masters, for THIS track now, is more subtle than the two from Queen I. Very interesting... (to me at least) (i've been told I use too many parenthetical remarks - sorry if it bugs you) more to come... |
| rhyeking 24.06.2010 20:36 |
So, Joe, you're saying it's the same remaster but louder? Maybe add a recap at the end of the analysis, like: "My opinion: 1998 - Remaster A 2001 - Remaster B 2008 = Remaster (A or B...or C)" I know it would make things easier to read when I'm thumbing through entries, which I do a lot of here. Anyway, here's what I've been working, an overview of the existing masters and remasters, the the best of my knowledge. I think I got all the releases, except maybe a few non-album single tracks QUEEN & SOLO MASTERS AND REMASTERS 1972 – Queen: Mastered by Roy Thomas Baker (?) at Trident Studios, London (?) 1973 – Queen II: Mastered by Mike Stone (?) at Trident Studios, London (?) 1974 – Sheer Heart Attack Mastered by Mike Stone (?) at Trident, Rockfield or Air Studios (?) 1975 – A Night At The Opera Mastered by Mike Stone (?) at Sarm Studios, London (?) 1976 – A Day At The Races Mastered by Mike Stone (?) at The Manor, Sarm East, Wessex(?) 1977 – News Of The World Mastered by Mike Stone at (?) 1978 – Jazz Mastered by Geoff Workman at Mountain Studios, Montreux 1979 – Live Killers Mastered by George Marino at Mountain Studios, Montreux 1980 – The Game Mastered by Mack at Mountain Studios, Munich 1980 – Flash Gordon Mastered by Mack and Alan Douglas at Town House Studios, The Music Centre and Advision 1980 – Greatest Hits Mastered likely used existing Masters 1981 – Fun In Space Mastered by George Marino by Sterling Sound, NYC 1982 – Hot Space Mastered by Mack and George Marino at either Mountain Studios, Montreux or Musicland Studios, Munich 1983 – Star Fleet Project Mastered by Bernie Grundman at (?) 1984 – The Works Digitally Mastered by George Marino at Sterling Sound, NYC 1984 – Strange Frontier Mastered by George Marino (?) at Sterling Sound, NYC (?) 1984 - "Thank God It's Christmas" single Mastered by George Marino (?) at Sterling Sound, NYC (?) 1985 – Mr. Bad Guy Mastered by Mack at Musicland Studios, Munich 1985 - The Complete Works likely used the existing masters 1986 – A Kind Of Magic Digitally Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London 1986 - Live Magic Digitally Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London 1987 – Shove It Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London 1988 – Barcelona Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at Town House Studios, London 1989 – The Miracle Digitally Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe and Gordon Vickary at The Town House, Studios 1989 – Queen At The Beeb Digitally Mastered by (?) at (?) 1990 – Mad, Bad and Dangerous To Know Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios , London 1991 – Innuendo Digitally Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London 1991 – Greatest Hits II likely used the existing Masters 1991 – Hollywood Records remasters series: Eddy Schreyer, at Future Disc Systems: Queen, Queen II, Jazz, Live Killers, The Game, The Works, A Kind Of Magic, The Miracle Kevin Metcalfe, at Town House Studios: Sheer Heart Attack, A Day At The Races, News Of The World, Hot Space Stephen Marcussen, at Precision Mastering: A Night At The Opera, Flash Gordon 1991 – Blue Rock Mastered by Barry Woodward at The Town House Studios, London, and “Cut” by Kevin Metcalfe* 1992 – Live At Wembley’86 Mastered by Eddie Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood 1992 – The Freddie Mercury Album and The Great Pretender Digitally Mastered by Eddy Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood** 1992 – Barcelona Digitally Remastered by Eddy Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood 1992 – Classic Queen and (Red) Greatest Hits Mastered by Eddy Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood** (likely used the individual 1991 Hollywood Records Remasters) 1992 – Box Of Trix: The 12” Collection Mastered/Remastered by (?) at (?) 1992 – Back To The Light Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London 1993 – Five Live (EP) Mastered by Eddy Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood 1994 – Digital Master Series (Queen to Innuendo) Remastered by Kevin Metcalfe (?) at Town House Studios (?) 1995 – Made In Heaven Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London (?) 1994 – Happiness? Mastered by Chris Blair at Abbey Road Studio, London 1995 – Queen At The BBC Mastered/Remastered by (?) at (?) 1996 – Fun In Space and Strange Frontier Digitally Remastered by Tony Cousins and Joshua J. Macrea at Metropolis Studios, London 1997 – Queen Rocks Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Town House Studios, London (using the 1994 DMS remasters, except for new masters for “I Want It All [Rocks Vers) 1998 – 25th Anniversary “Crown Jewels” LP Reproduction CD Box Set (Queen to The Game) Remastered by Peter Mew at Abby Road Studios, London 1998 – Electric Fire Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Sound Masters, London 1998 – Another World Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Sound Masters, London (?) 1999 – Greatest Hits III Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe at The Sound Masters, London 2000 – Freddie Mercury: The Solo Collection Remastered by Peter Mew at Abby Road Studios, London (except Barcelona & The Great Pretender, which uses the 1992 Eddy Schreyer remasters) 2001 – Japanese “Queen Digital Remasters” Series (Queen to Live At Wembley ’86, including Hits, Hits II and Live Magic) Remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios, London 2004 – Greatest Hits: We Will Rock You Edition Mastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios (using his 2001 QDR Series remasters), except for “In In Love With My Car (Single Version),” “Under Pressure (Live),” and “Tie Your Mother Down (Live) Remastered by Miles Showell at Metropolis Mastering, London, 2004 2004 – Japanese “LP Reproduction” Series Remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios (using his 2001 QDR Series remasters). 2004 – Queen On Fire: Live At The Bowl Mastered by Tim Young at Metropolis Mastering, London 2004 – Jewels likely used the 2001 QDR Peter Mew remasters 2005 – Jewells II likely used the 2001 QDR Peter Mew remasters, with a new master for Teo Torriate (High Def Mix) Joshua J. Macre (?) at (?) (not sure about the “Tie Your Mother Down [Air Guitar Edit]”)*** 2005 – Return Of The Champions Mastered by Tim Young at Metropolis Mastering, London 2005 – 30th Anniversary A Night At The Opera CD Remastered by Bob Ludwig at Gateway Mastering Studios, Portland 2006 – Stone Cold Classics likely used existing 1991 HR remasters & the 2005 Return Of The Champions Master 2006 – The Very Best Of Freddie Mercury Solo uses a combination of 2000 TSC remasters by Peter Mew and 1992 Eddy Schreyer remasters. Mastering details of the new tracks unclear. 2007 – The A-Z Of Queen Volume 1 likely used existing 1991 HR remasters 2007 – Queen Rock Montreal Mastered by Tim Young at Metropolis Mastering, London 2008 – The Cosmos Rocks Mastered by Kevin Metcalfe, The Sound Masters, London 2008 – The Singles Collection Volume 1: Remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios using a combination of new remastered tracks and his 1998 CJ & 2001 QDR remasters 2009 – Absolute Greatest Remastered by Bob Ludwig at Gateway Mastering Studios, Portland (?) 2009 – Live In Ukraine Mastered by Tim Young at Metropolis Mastering, London 2009 – The Singles Collection Volume 2: Remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios using a combination of new remastered tracks and his 1998 CJ & 2001 QDR remasters 2009 – Everything Is Broken single Mastered by Joshua J. Macrae (?) at (?) 2010 – The Singles Collection Volume 3: Remastered by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios using a combination of new remastered tracks and his 1998 CJ & 2001 QDR remasters * Blue Rock has a strange credit, listing both a Master and a “Cut,” the latter by Kevin Metcalfe, who has mastered other Queen and Solo material ** Eddy Schreyer Mastered both these albums, and the FM Solo Collection says they were Remasters. *** I own the 2006 Tour Edition and it has NO mastering info listed at all (?) indicates I’m guessing, based on who was either |
| joesilvey 24.06.2010 22:38 |
good grief, Rhye... that's a crapload of credits!! thanks for such an exhaustive and detailed listing! as far as my summary assessment - i'll do that at the end, if that's okay. For this pass, i'm just gauging how much "modernizing" if you will (compression, loudness) these various remasters have gone through, and i'm keeping track as i go of the gradation from least compressed/altered to most. When i've reviewed all the waveforms and have a listing in order of loudness... i'm going to go back and give my order of best sounding. Granted it will be a subjective review, but i think most Queenzoners who are following this thread have a good enough understanding of what's out there (91 releases being largely just transfers to digital without much doctoring, progressing all the way up to AG with it's ultra-compressed trying-to-compete-with-the-music-of-today sound) to use my results as a reference point to be taken with their individual preferences in mind. for now, i'm just giving objective assessments of the waveforms themselves and how they differ in respect to mastering. My SOUND tests (when i kick my lovely wife and our 4 year old daughter out so i can use my high-end stereo to its full glory) will be subjective, but i promise you i WILL pick favorites. thanks again, Rhye, for starting this thread and making it such fun as we've gone on. Obviously, i'm not a veteran poster here, but this has been one of the most engaging threads for me personally, since i've gotten on QZ... |
| rhyeking 24.06.2010 23:34 |
I, too, am digging this thread. I'm personally of the opinion that North America has the better overall remasters, the 1991 Hollywood Records remasters, which are reasonably priced for the casual or "not-so-hard-core" fan (plus they contain the remastered bonus tracks). I hope no one reading this thread thinks we're in anyway saying those or others are complete crap and that they have to re-buy the entire catalogue. We're just gauging the relative quality, though some do feel individual remastered albums sound poor (Live Killers in a previous post and I've heard some people think lowly of The Works, Magic and Innuendo albums from the 2001 Remasters are not done well, but we'll get to those). Now, to continue our examination, here is A Day At The Races: 00) A Day At The Races Fanfare* (1991 HR) 01) Tie Your Mother Down (Single Version) (2008 SC) 02) You Take My Breath Away (1991 HR) 03) Long Away (1991 HR) 04) The Millionaire Waltz (1991 HR) 05) You And I (2008 SC) 06) Somebody To Love (2008 SC) 07) White Man (2008 SC) 08) Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy (2008 SC) 09) Drowse (1991 HR) 10) Teo Torriate (2006 High Definition Mix)** * This is what I've long called the "intro" to the album. Technically, it's not part of the song, despite not being credited on the album, which I always thought was a shame. It deserves it's own name, seeing as it does the same thing "Procession" does for Queen II. It's a very easy edit, if you're ambitious enough to make the cut. Separating it and including the Single Version of TYMD from the Singles Collection 1 allows us to use the superior (IMO) remaster of TYMD. ** Some might argue that this is a "remix," but in all the ways which matter, it's not, despite having "Mix" at the end of its name. There is nothing new or changed in this version, it was simply cleaned up with Protools for Jewel II. It sounds AMAZING to me and benefits us here by retaining the entire album outro (the Fanfare reprise, as it were). |
| brians wig 25.06.2010 03:14 |
Sidetracking ever so slightly.... What's interesting about Seven Seas Of Rhye is the way it's constructed. I started doing my own surround sound stereo upmixes a number of years back and Seven Seas is one of those few tracks that was initially mixed in such a way that the "vocal cut" process doesn't work very well on it (ironically, the 70's albums are fantastic for the vocal cut tool, while the 80's albums shockingly don't work so well). However, if I take the maxed out mix used on "Queen Rocks", I get much better results with the vocal cut tool. It doesn;t strip the vocals so much, but it does highlight more instrumentation that gives my rear speakers something different to play. Coming back then, the one major difference I find between the Japanese remasters and the Hollywood Records remasters is the amount of bass present on the Japanese, which the HR's seem to be lacking. Final thought for this thread. Should I dig out my original vinyl and do a capture of a track to have a wav form comparison to look at, or is it pointless? |
| joesilvey 25.06.2010 08:10 |
@ Brians wig... i don't think it's pointless. I'd certainly be curious to see how the vinyl waveform compares to others i've been looking at from later CD versions... |
| brians wig 25.06.2010 08:23 |
Any particular track? |
| joesilvey 25.06.2010 08:45 |
BW: are these original vinyls, issued the same year the album was first released? I'd say something from the 70's for sure... i'm about to do Killer Queen next in my waveform comparisons, how about that one? also, Rhye - COMPLETELY agree about Teo Torriatte high def mix... i think that sounds AMAZING, and to me it proves (along with things like I Can't Live With You (rocks retake) and even I Was Born To Love You (MIH)) that Queen could greatly improve Inneundo and probably other things as well with some work... |
| rhyeking 25.06.2010 09:49 |
News Of The World is up next: 01) We Will Rock You (2008 SC) 02) We Are The Champions (2008 SC) 03) Sheer Heart Attack (2008 SC) 04) All Dead, All Dead (1991 HR) 05) Spread Your Wings (2008 SC) 06) Fight From The Inside (1991 HR) 07) Get Down, Make Love (1991 HR) 08) Sleeping On The Sidewalk (1991 HR) 09) Who Needs You (1991 HR) 10) It's Late (1991 HR)* 11) My Melancholy Blues (1991 HR) * Be sure you don't include the Error Version, which appears on early pressings of the 1991 HR re-issue. It's been fixed on later pressings. |
| joesilvey 26.06.2010 23:31 |
Continuing my waveform assessment of the various Peter Mew remasters available (and I will post a full summary at the end of this to succinctly show the progressive amounts of dynamic compression / loudness among each of PM's three remasters): Here is Killer Queen: (another anomaly) Again the version that appears to be the closest to the dynamic range of the original master, is the CJ 1998 version. Not a weak specimen by any stretch (its peak levels are right around 90% of the loudness capable on the CD). Next is the Singles Collection version, which so far has been the MOST compressed of these tracks in question. with KQ, it appears the peak level is unchanged, but the dynamic range has been normalized a little bit. The quietest parts have been "brought forward" to even out / compress the track (which is a misleading term because even though it is technically LIMITING frequency levels, the end effect is actually a loudening, rather than a minimization). And the most effected version of the three is the 2001 JP remaster, which in relation to the Singles Collection version adds overall dynamic compression for even more sonic normalization throughout the track, as well as a slight boost in overall peak volume. this is very intriguing to me - and Rhye, this is your thread and i'm not trying to divert it or undermine it any way. if anything, it's made me realize that even for a given SERIES of remasters, which i would have thought would bear the particular tastes and consistent style of the one mastering, there isn't perfect consistency. I'm a HUGE fan of the SC remasters, but now I see that there may be different versions of certain tracks that I prefer to them. Personally, I can't wait to create my own DEFINITIVE BEST when i find the time to actually do SOUND tests of these versions. And I may find myself dipping back into the 1991 HR editions for certain songs, as Rhye suggests, for the best aural experience. I may be exposing the variations in mastering (from finesse to heavy-handedness) but your ears and mine are going to be the final judges. gonna go ahead and do Now I'm Here too, since it's the only other track in question from SHA: CJ 1998 comes in the mildest once again, with the peaks hitting around 85+% (the top peak being the downbeat hit right around 3:15 in the track) and there's a fairly clear build of overall volume as the song progresses. Next is the 2001 JP remaster, with just a little peak volume boost, and a subtle amount of dynamic compression. Again looks like about a 10% increase in level and a good boost in even volume density throughout. now here's where it got interesting, and for this track, Peter Mew is undoubtedly right in his memory... the SC version is virtually IDENTICAL to the 2001 JP remaster. With all the certainty my experience affords me, the SC master of Now I'm Here was taken straight from the 2001 JP remasters. (not that that's bad in any way - just a confirmation of information). more to come... |
| brians wig 27.06.2010 10:17 |
joesilvey wrote: BW: are these original vinyls, issued the same year the album was first released? I'd say something from the 70's for sure... i'm about to do Killer Queen next in my waveform comparisons, how about that one? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They are. They were bought at the time of release and I don't think they've ever been played (honestly!). It's sad I know, but as much as I now want to play them I don't really want to, but I'll manage a track purely for this thread :) |
| brians wig 27.06.2010 10:18 |
rhyeking wrote: * Be sure you don't include the Error Version, which appears on early pressings of the 1991 HR re-issue. It's been fixed on later pressings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have ALL the original errors been fixed on later pressing? |
| rhyeking 27.06.2010 10:32 |
The three I know of are: In The Lap In The Gods (missing like two bars in the intro) It's Late (the first few notes cut off) I Want It All (wrong Master used for the HR remaster, missing part of the chorus) As far as I know, the first two have been corrected, thought I'm not 100% certain of "Lap Of The Gods". I still own the Error Versions of the CDs and never bothered replacing them beyond downloading the Correct Versions years later. I don't think HR has fixed "The Miracle" album, seeing as the Queen camp only recently acknowledged the wrong original master was used. |
| JacquesDaniels 27.06.2010 15:27 |
Alright, sorry for the late sort-of conclusion for the "debate" about the Fairy King glitch - whether it exists on some remasters or not. I got a vague reply from our mixer, who also did not hear anything unusual on a quick listening. So, I don't know how concentrated you have to be to hear it, or how good equipment you have to have to be able to discern the stuff I still claim to hear, or in how good condition your hearing has to in order to be able to hear it. Anyway, I still believe there IS a difference in different releases, but I have no idea which versions differ, because the one at Spotify is credited to be the 1994 remaster, which I can't honestly say actually is, because I've heard the 1994 remaster. Strangely enough, I've played the two clips in tandem to a few of my non-musician type friends, who all did hear "something" different. So, whatever the conclusion, I'm drawing myself out of this discussion, because I just stopped giving a damn, and have nothing more to offer. It's an interesting topic, though. Have fun with it, yawl. |
| joesilvey 27.06.2010 20:23 |
@ Rhyeking - on your list of 1998 or 2001 PM remasters... you didn't include the I'm In Love With My Car b-side to BoRhap. i thought the b-side version was the album version? |
| rhyeking 27.06.2010 20:46 |
joesilvey wrote: @ Rhyeking - on your list of 1998 or 2001 PM remasters... you didn't include the I'm In Love With My Car b-side to BoRhap. i thought the b-side version was the album version, which would qualify for my comparisons, right? just wanted to clarify as I get ready to do ANATO... If you do need to add it, just change it on your post that contains the listing, and let me know. i'll edit this post to continue with the ANATO info... thanks... The UK B-side of "I'm In Love With My Car" is a unique version of the song, essentially with the car revving which appears at the end of the album version being placed at the beginning and the reprise after the fade out is absent. If you have Queen Rocks, the version on there has the beginning of the UK Single Version and the end (reprise) of the Album Version. In 2004, the UK Single Version of IILWMC was remastered by Miles Showell (not Peter Mew, as I mistakenly noted previous. The liner notes say the three bonus tracks were by Showell and not Mew. Mew did the 17 'regular' tracks). HOWEVER, Peter Mew appears to have remastered the UK Single Version for the 2008 Singles Collection. So, for the UK Single Version of IILWMC there are two recent remasters: 2004 = Miles Showell 2008 = Peter Mew The most recent remaster of the album version would be Bob Ludwig's in 2005 for the 30th Anniversary CD/DVD set. Because of my mistaking the 2004 Showelll remaster for a 2004 Peter Mew remaster (which doesn't exist), I'm adding to the previous post the 2008 Peter Mew remaster of "I'm In Love With My Car (UK Single Version)." I hope that all makes sense. |
| joesilvey 27.06.2010 22:40 |
understood - and since IILWMC doesn't fit the qualification of the other thrice remastered tracks I've been looking at, we'll leave it in its own category. Thanks for the clarification... So then, let's have a look at the variations in Peter Mew's remastering of the (4) ANATO tracks: Among the three DEATH ON TWO LEGS versions, all have some moderate dynamic compression - so i wouldn't suspect any of these sound just like the original vinyl masters as far as dynamic range. Lowest overall peak volume is Crown Jewels again, but interestly, the next loudest is Singles Collection, which seems to have greater overall peak volume, but less heavy dynamic compression. There is more variation in the peaks, and the intro section (first 39 seconds or so) is a good bit QUIETER on the SC version. The loudest is the JP 2001 remaster, which appears to be the peaks / compression levels of the SC, though boosted to the top of the CD's volume capability (and the intro section is not subdued in the JP version - but pushed up to match the maximum of the rest of the song. BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY... this time the 98 Crown Jewels master was clearly used for the Singles Collection - they're virtually identical. They both have a wide dynamic range - as is vital to a song like this. Surprisingly, the only noticeable difference is that the CJ version has perhaps a 2% or so volume increase in some of the peaks throughout. It appears as though a more precise limiter may have been used as a final touch on the SC version.... The different one is the JP 2001 remaster - still keeping a wide dynamic range (especially by today's music standards) it boosts the peaks to the max of the CD. This is the version that was supposedly used for the WWRY edition of the Greatest Hits - and reportedly is also rid of hum and tape hiss that were apparent on "all previous versions" of this track...BUT I just listened closely to the intros of these three versions, and I can clearly hear the hum and tape hiss on the CJ version, the JP 2001 version, but NOT on the Singles Collection version. Of course, then i had to go check my HR Platinum Collection GH1 disc, and no hum or hiss there either. But its waveform looks like the SC / CJ versions rather than the maxed JP version. Then I checked the Bob Ludwig ANATO 30th Anniversary set, and the tape hiss is BIG on that one. I do hear the hum as well, though it's a bit less noticeable than the other instances in which is appears. With such an important song to Queen's history and their popularity... it's amazing to me that so many variations in quality exist among even the REMASTERED and currently in-print versions available... YMBF and 39 up next... |
| rhyeking 27.06.2010 22:54 |
joesilvey wrote: BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY... this time the 98 Crown Jewels master was clearly used for the Singles Collection - they're virtually identical. They both have a wide dynamic range - as is vital to a song like this. Surprisingly, the only noticeable difference is that the CJ version has perhaps a 2% or so volume increase in some of the peaks throughout. It appears as though a more precise limiter may have been used as a final touch on the SC version.... The different one is the JP 2001 remaster - still keeping a wide dynamic range (especially by today's music standards) it boosts the peaks to the max of the CD. This is the version that was supposedly used for the WWRY edition of the Greatest Hits - and reportedly is also rid of hum and tape hiss that were apparent on "all previous versions" of this track...BUT I just listened closely to the intros of these three versions, and I can clearly hear the hum and tape hiss on the CJ version, the JP 2001 version, but NOT on the Singles Collection version. Of course, then i had to go check my HR Platinum Collection GH1 disc, and no hum or hiss there either. But its waveform looks like the SC / CJ versions rather than the maxed JP version. Then I checked the Bob Ludwig ANATO 30th Anniversary set, and the tape hiss is BIG on that one. I do hear the hum as well, though it's a bit less noticeable than the other instances in which is appears. ===================== So you're saying the 1998 Crown Jewels Remaster had the hiss and hum cleaned/filtered/removed/"fixed" for the 2004 GH:WWRY Ed. and THAT version was used by PM on the 2008 Singles Collection? I look forward to YMBF... |
| joesilvey 27.06.2010 23:21 |
rhyeking wrote: So you're saying the 1998 Crown Jewels Remaster had the hiss and hum cleaned/filtered/removed/"fixed" for the 2004 GH:WWRY Ed. and THAT version was used by PM on the 2008 Singles Collection? ####################################### well, that's one possibility. According to Justin Shirley-Smith in the liner notes of the WWRY GH edition, Peter Mew worked the magic that finally rid the BR master of hiss and hum, and it clearly states that his remasters are (c) 2001. Now, the 2001 waveform looks more maxed out than the CJ / SC / WWRY ones AND it still has hiss & hum. Perhaps he began with the 2001 masters and then added some additional touch-ups for WWRY GH (including the most dramatic results of BoRhap's newly-cleaned intro)... it's speculation at this point. But this is EXACTLY why I don't see remastering at all as a scam by the labels to make us buy the same stuff over and over. It's not smoke & mirrors. It's often done well, and it's often done poorly, but it's a legitimate necessary process for recordings created in imperfect conditions on imperfect equipment. I'm not talking about processing signals to artificially make instruments sound better than they did originally. It's this kind of thing, where technology now affords us the opportunity to rid a MASTER TAPE of something the band never wanted nor welcomed to their art, but simply HAD to accept as an unavoidable circumstance. (kay - stepping off soapbox) |
| rhyeking 28.06.2010 08:44 |
I agree. Some audiophiles (not nessecarily Queen fans) very much disapprove of digital remastering, arguing that it doesn't sound as warm and we should leave it the way it was at the time. For me, the artist's original intention should win out. However, that can be taken to extremes too (**cough**George Lucas*cough**). I read a few years ago of an artist who has been consistantly rerecording and remixing his albums to the point where the songs sound different. And he wasn't advertising this on re-issues of the album, so the person who this article I read had bought the CD again to replace her lost copy and found certain songs sounded totally different. She was appalled and had to copy the original cd from a friend. For the life of me I can't remember who that artist was (I know Ozzy's done that too, but it wasn't him. I think it was a '90s Alternative guy). I also think the human ear is great at filtering out imperfections in music. I know I never noticed any "hiss" or "hum" on BoRhap until it was pointed out, but even knowing it's there doesn't effect my listening to the song. |
| joesilvey 28.06.2010 09:52 |
also, the hum is a very low bass frequency and the hiss is an ultra high frequency... if you aren't listening to the song on quality speakers (not a table top stereo or iPod earbuds) it won't even be replicated anyway. I agree, though, i'd never been bothered by the hum before it was pointed out. It is nice to hear the intro harmonies without 10 overdubs' worth of tape hiss, though. And now the last two ANATO tracks Peter Mew revisited: YOU'RE MY BEST FRIEND is one of the most consistent so far. All three versions appear to be VERY similar in peaks/compression, and remastering in general. So the dynamic range won't sound different among the three. The sequence of loudness on the discs, however, progresses from Crown Jewels, to SC, and again the most extreme (as PM said) is the Japan 2001. The intro organ notes (0:00-0:07 or so) are actually slightly QUIETER on the SC version, as opposed to the other two. Usually even on a super-compressed remaster like Bob Ludwig's AG, an opening that contains a single instrument like this one is NOT going to be brought up to the level of the rest of the track. FM radio, however, is that extreme. Often mixes serviced to radio-only have the vocals way up in the mix - so that when the track is squashed down for broadcast, the thing sounds right and you don't lose the singer. (just checked AG's YMBF... the intro is about TWICE as loud as the PM remasters, but still much smaller relative to where the full band joins in)... '39 is a mellower track, so i wasn't sure what to expect, but it follows the same pattern as above (Crown Jewels is the most conservative in volume, then SC, then JP boosts things all the way.) SC is close to JP in compression / peaks. Crown Jewels appears a little bit less effected. Even in 1998, apparently, PM didn't see the need to overly compress a track that's acoustic guitar & voice... @Brians Wig - if you haven't adulterated your vinyl yet, and don't want to, don't do it for us! Didn't realize they hadn't been played before! =) |
| pittrek 28.06.2010 10:06 |
rhyeking wrote: The three I know of are: In The Lap In The Gods (missing like two bars in the intro) It's Late (the first few notes cut off) I Want It All (wrong Master used for the HR remaster, missing part of the chorus) As far as I know, the first two have been corrected, thought I'm not 100% certain of "Lap Of The Gods". I still own the Error Versions of the CDs and never bothered replacing them beyond downloading the Correct Versions years later. I don't think HR has fixed "The Miracle" album, seeing as the Queen camp only recently acknowledged the wrong original master was used.Any chance that you upload the error tracks ? :-) |
| rhyeking 28.06.2010 17:07 |
I'm willing to try uploading the Error Versions, but I'm hesitant because technically they've been released and are official. I don't want to get in crap from Queenzone and respect their policy. What say you, Queenzone Officials, may I post these? |
| Adam Unger (QueenVault.com) 28.06.2010 19:02 |
Lap Of The Gods has been corrected. |
| rhyeking 28.06.2010 20:07 |
Re: In The Lap Of The Gods I thought so, but wasn't 100% certain. I know "It's Late" was fixed. I still don't think any 1991 HR re-issues have fixed "I Want It All." In HR's defense, the problem wasn't of their making, but of having been sent an alternate album master of the song made during The Miracle sessions. They had no reason to think it was wrong, as it had all the legitimate notation from QP. It does make me wonder what other alternate master mixes exist of Queen songs. We've all heard the "rap" bit which doesn't appear on any released versions of "The Invisible Man." It's funny, as I was first getting into Queen in the early '90s, I got the 1991 HR SHA cassette for Christmas. I had that for the longest time (still do, in a box somewhere) then got the CD and at some point found the LP at a yard sale. That's when I heard the missing bars in In The Lap Of The Gods and was like, "Hm, I wonder how Hollywood Records ended up with this edit?" Unlike the "It's Late" error, which cuts off the first few notes, the ITLOTG error seems to be the result of mixing that bit out, rather than by way off just chopping it out. The mix is smooth and unless you knew it was supposed to be there, I defy anyone to tell me they'd notice there was an edit. I've often thought that maybe HR recieved an similar incorrect master from QP. The only other way I can fathom the Edit Version coming about was that somehow Kevin Metcalfe (who remastered it) cut that out, noticed the mistake, remixed it to smooth out the error and hoped no one would notice. My problem with that is looking at Metcalfe's long track record with Queen-related releases, it doesn't seem like something he'd do (it would be incredibly unprofessional to not own up to the mistake and just hope for the best). If his original copy of the master was now lost because of this error, why not just ask for a new one from QP? No, I think it well be an alternate master, which raises the question: why bother with such a small tweak of the song? We may never know. |
| Walter B. 29.06.2010 02:42 |
I have found the "error" version of In The Lap Of The Gods on Youtube: link |
| Adam Unger (QueenVault.com) 29.06.2010 12:53 |
If the singles collection uses old remasters, how did the click in Seven Seas Of Rhye get fixed? |
| joesilvey 29.06.2010 13:07 |
where exactly is the click on the SSOR track? On the HR 91 remaster or later editions? Singles Collection reportedly used previous Peter Mew remasters (1998 Crown Jewels, 2001 Japan reissues) otherwise, new ones were created (also by him) between 2008-2010. |
| Adam Unger (QueenVault.com) 29.06.2010 13:36 |
It is at around 2:07-2:08 of the track (both the 1991 Hollywood and 2001 Japan Remasters). I haven't bothered checking it on Crown Jewels yet. |
| Adam Unger (QueenVault.com) 29.06.2010 13:56 |
To follow-up... The "click" appears on: UK Greatest Hits CD US Hollywood Records 1991 Queen II Remaster CD US Hollywood Records 1992 Greatest Hits CD UK 1997 Rocks CD US 1998 Crown Jewels Queen II CD US Greatest Hits (We Will Rock You Edition) Japan 2004 Mini Vinyls Japan Jewels II The "click" does not appear on: Singles Collection Vol. 1 Absolute Greatest |
| joesilvey 29.06.2010 14:02 |
Interesting! So Peter Mew definitely did some new work on that track for SC. And apparently, Bob Ludwig did as well for AG... I also noticed on Bohemian Rhapsody that in the intro section where the lines "Little high" and "Little low" are isolated in the Left and Right channels - there was always a bit of a rough edit between one channel going mute and the other coming in... until the SC and AG versions... |
| rhyeking 29.06.2010 16:02 |
Adam is dead on with the "click" being cleaned up. I always thought it was a drumstick tap by Roger, but even if it was, someone thought enough about not liking it that it was removed. I guess Peter did do some polishing of standard album tracks he'd previously remastered. And that Bob Ludwig must have done the same thing, removing the click, for Absolute Greatest. |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 20:50 |
Okay, this thread's been kind of quiet, so here's Jazz: 01) Mustapha (1991 HR) 02) Fat Bottomed Girls (1991 HR) 03) Jealousy (1991 HR) 04) Bicycle Race (2008 SC) 05) If You Can't Beat Them (1991 HR) 06) Let Me Entertain You (1991 HR) 07) Dead On Time (1991 HR) 08) In Only Seven Days (2008 SC) 09) Dreamer's Ball (1991 HR) 10) Fun It (1991 HR) 11) Leaving Home Ain't Easy (1991 HR) 12) Don't Stop Me Now (2008 SC) 13) More Of That Jazz (1991 HR) Not too many surprises here, because there weren't too many alternate remasters to pick from. We covered Live Killers, so here's The Game: 01) Play The Game (2009 SC) 02) Dragon Attack (2009 SC) 03) Another One Bites The Dust (2009 SC) 04) Need Your Loving Tonight (1991 HR) 05) Crazy Little Thing Called Love (2009 SC) 06) Rock It (Prime Jive) (1991 HR) 07) Don't Try Suicide (1991 HR) 08) Sail Away Sweet Sister (1991 HR) 09) Coming Soon (1991 HR) 10) Save Me (2009 SC) bonus track 11) A Human Body (2009 SC) Again, we're split between the 1991 Hollywood Records and 2009 Single Collection remasters. And this is the only digital remaster of "A Human Body" available, so it's inclusion goes without saying. |
| joesilvey 30.06.2010 22:30 |
Rhye - Have there been any tracks so far that the 2001 JP remasters sound best to you? Again, this is your thread (and i haven't done any A/B/C/D-ing to make my own sonic conclusions)... just curious why it's seemingly HR or SC on all... now, continuing the waveform review among the Peter Mew remasters: The further on I go into this list, the more I’m realizing there’s just no pattern to it. These tracks clearly all have varying amounts of dynamic compression, range of peak levels, overall peak volume, limiting, EQing (though that’s difficult to see minor differences in the visual waveforms alone), and more. I have to believe it’s because PM is attentive to each track as a work of art unto itself, rather than that he’s inconsistent or careless. They’re all GOOD remasters… just a lot of variety in there. Typically someone mastering an album for the first time is looking to facilitate the flow of songs artistically (with levels, fades, even how tracks transition), and some kind of sonic consistency, or at least enjoyable progression across the album, is desired as well. So, that’s another consideration here. The Crown Jewels were remastered in the context of their original album, in original sequence. 2001 Japan set were as well, but he was under direct orders to make them loud and punchy. Singles Collections are different since the tracks, being A and B sides, may stand on their own. That might have led him to adjust his work on them. (Forgive me if my rambling on this subject is boring or angering any of you – I find every aspect of the studio creations of Queen fascinating.) Would love to have a few drinks and a loooong discussion with Peter Mew over all this stuff… nevertheless… SOMEBODY TO LOVE is a little unique, as Crown Jewels and Singles Collection versions have NO difference between their overall volume level. The SC, however, has a bit more compression, which brings the peaks of the song up to be more consistent throughout. The SC has a ceiling of about 85% of the CD’s volume capabilities, but the JP 2001 version goes right up (probably 98% or so). The JP and SC could be the same base remaster with volume boost being the only change. GOOD OLD FASHIONED LOVER BOY is the first, so far, that the Singles Collection version is the quietest / least dynamically compressed. There’s clearly limiting going on, especially in the last 30 seconds of the track, but it’s just left to be very organic overall. The Crown Jewels version is beefed up slightly throughout, but there little overall volume level change. The big departure, again, is JP 2001… which appears to be the CJ remaster, boosted to the near limits of the CD audio level. As an aside, I just discovered that there was a Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs release of ADATR (released in 1996, I believe.) Out of curiosity, I pulled up the waveforms for these two tracks to compare as well (though Peter Mew wasn’t involved, and MFSL’s claim is that sources are the ORIGINAL MASTERS, transferred at half-speed for supposedly better replication, and put onto Gold “ultra” discs for more accurate copies of the audio down to the molecular level). I thought the CJ remasters were conservative…wow. The MFSL versions have NO dynamic compression that I can tell, and they do sound great. If you’re a purist who greatly dislikes the compression on modern remasters… this is the version for you… On to NOTW tracks: WE WILL ROCK YOU: the CJ edition seems a very appropriate remaster to me – there’s dynamic compression to even out the levels throughout the track, but the chorus chant sections leap out at a slightly higher volume. Even that small amount of dynamic range is lost in the latter two PM remasters. In fact, the SC version’s overall peak level is even with the CJ verse peak level! Also, the SC is clearly the identical remaster as the JP 2001, only not boosted to the max of the CD’s volume limits. Relatively speaking, though, they are the same. WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS: the CJ and JP 2001 versions are very similar. There are some peaks throughout that differ between the two, but overall – it appears these could easily be the same remaster with only slight adjustments. Actually, it appears the CJ has a tiny bit more dynamic compression on it. But both have the same overall peak level (maybe 90%) and the vast majority of the two waveforms match up. In fact, the SC version is a waveform match as well…but there is a reduction in volume level. SHEER HEART ATTACK: The CJ is the least compressed here, though there’s clearly heavier compression on the last 33 seconds of the track or so (at about 2:52 to the end), and the peak volume is under 90%. SC version is more compressed, and actually slightly quieter in overall volume level than the CJ. The JP 2001 remaster appears to be identical to the SC version, except that it’s boosted another 5-10% on the CD in volume. Actually one of the more conservative JP remasters that I’ve seen here… SPREAD YOUR WINGS: CJ has about 10% more dynamic range compared to the other two. The JP and SC add compression and are identical except the JP is boosted up in overall volume. Honestly it’s very hard to know – by looking at visual amounts of compression alone – which of these sounds better to a given individual’s ears. When you LISTEN, you understand what compression does – whether it brings the drums out or adds presence to the guitar or other midrange instruments – sometimes it makes a song sound like a kick in the face (in a good way) and sometimes it can make things sound like they’re trapped in a storage bin that I’m sitting on – muffled, small, and distant. Compression isn’t a bad thing in and of itself. It’s a tool. A chisel can destroy art or create it… depending on the hands using it…and depending on the eyes beholding the end result, actually. |
| rhyeking 30.06.2010 23:44 |
So far, the 2001 JLP remaster of Queen II, which I covered in an earlier post, beat out the 1991 HR remaster (with the exception of the later 2008 SC remastered tracks). I noticed, too, that I seem to be favouring the 1991 HR remasters at certain points in this examination, and it must be that they sound the most dynamic so far overall (to me). I did, however, also favour the 1998 CJ remaster for SHA and the 25th Anniversary remaster for ANATO, generally speaking. I'm fascinated by this Gold Audiophile CD of A Day At The Races. I remember this series, as a friend had Meat Loaf's Bat Out Of Hell album and I remember Races and (I think) The Game or NOTW were available too, but sadly, I don't have them (they were like $60 or $70 in the '90s and I was a poor university student). If you say this is a remaster that rivals the current ones, I should definately look at them. Track by Track, how would you compare it to the Races list I compiled in the previous post? I know I started this thread, but I really want it to belong to everyone. The point is to get everyone's opinion and try to agree which masters/remasters of each song sound the best. My opinion is just one of many and I offer my lists up for scrutiny, agreement and disagreement as people see fit. I loved discussing My Fairy King, even though I couldn't hear the "glitch" I was told was there. I never said it wasn't there, just that I couldn't hear it. I want more such discussions and invite re-examinations of previously discussed albums. Just because I offer up a new list for a new album every few days, doesn't mean the discussion is over on the previous ones. My lists are offered just as a place to start discussions. In most cases, I only really examine my own choices immediately prior to or even AS I post the list, though the thoughts have often been floating around for a while before Joe, your contributions are among my favourite in this thread, providing more analysis than I can offer. I thought when I started I'd be the only one posting, but it's great to see people get interested in the remastering process. I'll admit, prior to this thread, I didn't give it a heck of a lot of thought beyond noticing that certain releases sounded "better" than others. Many of these lists are brand new, made coherent out of my random thoughts for the first time. Plus, it gives me a chance to really listen and appreciate each song as I go along. |
| brians wig 01.07.2010 03:17 |
The Mobile Fidelity CD Range also included A Night At The Opera, The Game & News Of The World. Unfortunately I never picked up copies of these as I was happy with the 1991 HR's AND they cost more then twice as much! Like Rhyeking says, they cost a small fortune now so I'm even less likely to get them :( One release that needs to be mentioned is the 2003 HR/DTS Entertainment release of "The Game". As well as the amazing Surround mix, it also contains a PCM 96khz 24 bit stereo mix which was "mastered from the 1/4 inch original analogue mix master...." I have to say that unless I'm in my car, I never listen to the stereo version of this album anymore - I always listen to the surround mix. |
| rhyeking 01.07.2010 10:52 |
I own both DVD-As of Opera and The Game and they are stunning. I still prefer this surround mix of Opera over the 30th Anniversary DVD, even though I know "God Save the Queen" was not mixed into surround using the master tape, because at the time they couldn't find it (turns out the master was on the same tape as the master of "Procession.") I didn't bring these or any of the surround mixes into the discussion because, in my mind, they are an entirely seperate beast and the selections are pretty limited (two studio albums and two Video Hits DVDs). |
| rhyeking 01.07.2010 16:54 |
Well, I think it's safe to say there isn't much we can do with Flash Gordon, beyond selecting the best remaster of the entire album. I can't contribute much to that because I so far only own the 1991 HR version. The only other remasters are the 1994 Digital Master Series and the 2001 Japan LP Reproductions. I wasn't going to bring up Greatest Hits, because there are several to choose from and with the recent Singles Collections we could pretty well recreate the entire track listing with those remasters as well. We covered Hot Space too, so that takes us to The Works: 01) Radio Ga Ga (2009 SC) 02) Tear It Up (2009 SC) 03) It's Hard Life (2009 SC) 04) Man On The Prowl (2010 SC) 05) Machines (2009 SC) 06) I Want To Break Free (1991 HR) 07) Keep Passing The Open Windows (2010 SC) 08) Hammer To Fall (1994 DMS) 09) Is This The World We Created...? (2009 SC) bonus tracks 10) I Go Crazy (2009 SC) 11) Thank God It's Christmas (2010 SC) 12) Radio Ga Ga (Instrumental) (1984 OM)* 13) Machines (Instrumental) (1992 BOT)** * This version hasn't seen proper remaster, as far as I know. ** This WAS remastered for the Box Of Trix set in 1992, though I don't know by whom or where. |
| joesilvey 01.07.2010 18:18 |
Agreed on those you've skipped over, and love that The Works has such diversity in best versions. Can you describe what it is about IWTBF's HR version that makes it your choice over other remasters? thanks for your comments on my posts as well, rhyeking. it's a pleasure to share my thoughts here. check your pm's too, btw. Here are my overviews of the Peter Mew remasters from Jazz: BICYCLE RACE: first we have the Singles Collection version... coming in at just under 90% peak volume, and very little compression to be seen. The CJ and JP 2001 are identical - even down to their track length - both clock in at 3:03:506 exactly! They have dynamic compression throughout to fill the waveforms in for more consistent levels. IN ONLY SEVEN DAYS: same as above... SC version is uncompressed (or very minimally so) and left with a dynamic range you can really see. The CJ and JP 2001's are identical - not in their exact track lengths, but the waveforms are twins, complete with more evening dynamic compression. DON'T STOP ME NOW: also the same as above... SC version is clearly under some volume limiting (most notably at places like 2:12 and 2:43 where the sound spectrum is fuller with things like Roger's drum fills) but it's not squashed down to the point where all parts of the song are at the same level. The CJ and JP versions (again identical) are pretty extremely compressed. From :33 to 3:07 in the track, the waveforms are basically squared off across the tops and bottoms. There are a few peaks that stick out here and there, but this baby is only a couple of cranks away from the Bob Ludwig job on AG. Now, PM said he thinks the CJ or JP were used for SC, but on this album's tracks - they're both the same and the SC is CLEARLY done from scratch... ultimately, for me, the concern rests with the results (which in this case I can SEE) and not the remembered history (which is irrelevant when you have results!)... |
| joesilvey 01.07.2010 18:40 |
also, just for the heck of it, i did a sonic test of FLASH'S THEME just now - between the HR, JP, and SC remasters. Clearly the JP and SC were louder, but to my ears - the winner was JP 2001. SC was good, but actually a little bassy compared to the JP 2001. All instruments are clearly discernable yet well-blended and balanced... |
| rhyeking 01.07.2010 20:07 |
The HR remaster of IWTBF sounds the most well balanced to me. I don't have the waveforms to look at, but the 2001 JLP sounds like the drums were cranked too high in places and some of the subtly gets lost on the lower end synths (which John, in the single version, gives more dominance). The 1994 DMS remaster of HTF is punchier, which works for the song and gives it the presence it needs to compete with the Singles Collections remasters used on a lot of the other tracks. The "Radio Ga Ga" and "Machines" Instrumentals are just screaming for a proper, thorough Peter Mew remaster, in my opinion (screaming for it, I say!). In some ways I prefer the Instrumental of RGG to the Extended Version. |
| joesilvey 01.07.2010 20:44 |
@rhye: when you use a term like "well-balanced" to descibe why a remaster sounds best to you... i think we're very much in the same camp of sonic tastes. =) I want a song to be punchy, but it needs to have brilliant treble just as prominently as it does thumping, full bass. And the mids! don't scoop out the EQ, people! You know what's in the mids? Just electric guitar, snare drum, VOCALS... It's all got to be there. I don't want any instruments to get lost in the compression. Would love to hear some of the really ROCKIN Queen tracks to get remastered this way. I was hoping for more from Gimme The Prize and Princes of the Universe on SC, actually. I almost think on those kinds of full-on rockers, with SO many tracks in the recording, they'd be served well to have a remix / remaster. I think they could tear your face off if balanced properly. =) thanks for your additional thoughts, rhye... helps me know i can trust your opinions that much more... |
| rhyeking 01.07.2010 20:46 |
Okay, while I wait to receive a transfer, here is The Best Remasters - Queen Rocks Edition. It's easy to do the two Greatest Hits albums, because they've been remastered several different times and most recently the Singles Collection accounts for almost all the tracks, if not all the versions, on both. But, as I sit listening to my original 1997 copy of Queen Rocks, which used mostly the 1994 DMS remasters, I find myself thinking we can improve on this! "Sheer Heart Attack" and "It's Late" alone almost completely lose thier drum sound in places. So, here's my look at Queen Rocks, track by track: 01) We Will Rock You (2008 SC) 02) Tie Your Mother Down (2008 SC) 03) I Want It All (Rocks Version) (1997 QR)* 04) The Seven Seas Of Rhye (2008 SC) 05) I Can't Live With You (1997 Rocks Retake)* 06) Hammer To Fall (1994 DMS) 07) Stone Cold Crazy (1998 CJ) 08) Now I'm Here (2008 SC) 09) Fat Bottomed Girls (1991 HR) 10) Keep Yourself Alive (2008 SC) 11) Tear It Up (2009 SC) 12) One Vision (1991 HR) 13) Sheer Heart Attack (2008 SC) 14) I'm In Love With My Car (Rocks Version) (1997 QR)* 15) Put Out The Fire (2009 SC) 16) Headlong (1991 OM) 17) It's Late (1991 HR) 18) No-One But You (1999 GH3)** * These tracks, in these versions, only exist on this compilation, except for "I Want It All," whose Rocks Version also appears on Stone Cold Classics, but appears to be the same 1997 version. ** The version on Greatest Hits 3 sounds pretty much the same at the original 1997 master, but a bit louder. It may well be the same master, but with the volume increased. Hard to say. |
| joesilvey 01.07.2010 23:52 |
Rhye - your ears are good... I just ripped NOBY from my platinum collection (which is actually a 2002 re-do of GH 1-3, not that any masters or remasters were changed) and Queen Rocks...and your guess was right on. The remasters are IDENTICAL..but Rocks is boosted to the peak capacity of the CD and the GH3 is leveled off at 87% or so... |
| joesilvey 02.07.2010 00:26 |
and as a quick addition: NOW I'M HERE (live) from the two versions I have (SC or JP remasters)... they are IDENTICAL too... |
| rhyeking 02.07.2010 00:56 |
Good to know my hearing and perception is still intact, that years of listening to that devil music known as Rock And Roll hasn't rotted my brain. And my NOBY post should read the other way around, that the Queen Rocks version is louder than the GH3 version. I was typing quickly at the end of the post and mixed the two up. either way, I prefered the GH3 version and now I know why, it wasn't maxing out the CD as you describe the QR version as doing. And it makes sense that QR is a louder disc, it's a collection of their most out and out rockers and Brian promoted it as some to crank up in your car while driving. Subtly was not a priority. And I believe Kevin Metcalfe was responsible for both mastering jobs. No, onto something of a pedantic nature... Fat Bottomed Girls (Single Version) first appeared on Hollywood Records release in 2004, with the GH:WWRY Ed. (believe it or not, it never appeared in the 1991/1992 series of HR remasters, where the Album Version is used on the Red Greatest Hits). It was used again on Stone Cold Queen and again on The A-Z Of Queen Volume 1. I'm curious whether each release used the 2001 Peter Mew remaster. No mastering credits appear on SCC or AZ1 to tell us. Also, Joe, as I don't own the Platinum Collection (I saw no point as I have the Gold Collection and GH3) , but does it give any mastering credits on Hits 1 and 2? The Gold Collection doesn't credit the mastering of either, strangely. |
| rhyeking 02.07.2010 16:24 |
Riding high on the Jays beating the Yankees in extra innings (FIFA what?), I thought I'd update the thread. I was able to get a copy of the elusive MFSL remaster of ADATR, talked about earlier, and it is quite stunning to hear. I agree with Joe's post and am revising my position on the Races album. 00) A Day At The Races Fanfare* (1996 MSFL) 01) Tie Your Mother Down (Single Version) (2008 SC) 02) You Take My Breath Away (1996 MSFL) 03) Long Away (1996 MSFL) 04) The Millionaire Waltz (1996 MSFL) 05) You And I (2008 SC) 06) Somebody To Love (2008 SC) 07) White Man (2008 SC) 08) Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy (2008 SC) 09) Drowse (1996 MSFL) 10) Teo Torriate (2006 High Definition Mix)** The recent Singles Collection remasters definately give the MSFL a run for their money! The Hollywood Records remaster is still excellent, but this gold MSFL disc? Nice and rich. |
| joesilvey 02.07.2010 19:29 |
@ rhye... no mastering/remastering credits in Platinum Collection liner notes booklet... copyright years and lots of publishing info, though... |
| rhyeking 02.07.2010 20:16 |
As I suspected, they probably used the existing masters of each track as needed and the modified tracks unique to Hits II might have been done by David Richards. And not just the early fade-outs, but the unique edits like "Under Pressure" and "Who Wants To Live Forever." Interestingly, this brings up another curious point, as there were several different Greatest Hits released in 1981, each with unique track listings. Did Elektra and EMI master their own on each side of the Atlantic? It's not a big deal, and if I had a working record player I'd check, as I own both on the original vinyl (several times over, in fact, plus each on cassette. God bless yard sales!). |
| rhyeking 02.07.2010 23:58 |
And now A Kind Of Magic. I don't have the DMS series version of the album, but I do have Queen Rock, which uses those remasters and contains "One Vision." I DO have the original Capitol Records CD, which features the original digital master, and I have (surprise, surprise) the 1991 Hollywood Records CD re-issue. I also have the tracks from the 2010 Singles Collection. This was one of my most thorough examinations, as having the 1986 CD gave me an interesting perspective. It was first Queen album, I believe, originally digitally mastered and issued on Compact Disc, so it allowed me to not just compare remasters with each other, but to compare them to the original digital master (which is quite well done, though I think a bit limited by the technology of the time). The evolution of remastering is perhaps the most clearly seen here, as each new generation has an individual sound. The DMS remaster was the least warm to my ear, where the high end and "hissy-ness" on the high end is the most apparent. The HR remaster steps it up from the original and does have a warmer, clear texture. But, as you'll see in my list, the Singles Collection remasters by our friend PM are a grand slam! The clarity is amazing and the richness is maintained throughout. 01) One Vision (1991 HR) 02) A Kind Of Magic (2010 SC) 03) One Year Of Love (2010 SC) 04) Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (1991 HR) 05) Friends Will Be Friends (2010 SC) 06) Who Wants To Live Forever (1991 HR) 07) Gimme The Prize (2010 SC) 08) Don't Lose Your Head (2010 SC) 09) Princes Of The Universe (2010 SC) Extra Magical Ingredients: 10) A Kind Of 'A Kind Of Magic' (1986 OM) 11) Friends Will Be Friends Will Be Friends (1986 OM) 12) Forever (2010 SC) 13) A Dozen Red Roses For My Darling (2010 SC) 14) Blurred Vision (2010 SC) |
| joesilvey 03.07.2010 00:42 |
Very interesting that "A Kind Of 'A Kind of Magic'" and "Friends Will Be Friends Will Be Friends" sound best on the OM, and that PISCTP, OV, and WWTLF sound best from the HR remaster. I know i said i wished Gimme The Prize and Princes were punchier on the SC... but actually my biggest disappointment from AKOM (the SC versions) was Who Wants To Live Forever. The dynamic range is vast, but it seemed like PM went SO far to make sure it was preserved, he missed the opportunity to kick some life into the track. To me it seems PM's style has evolved and in the SC versions, overall - he's found a balance between highlighting the richness, warmth, and dynamic diversity of the original masters, and bringing each track "up" to be sonically competitive with the ultra-compressed sound of today's music. |
| joesilvey 03.07.2010 11:04 |
and now, here’s the last set of Peter Mew remaster comparisons – four tracks from The Game… PLAY THE GAME: more firsts here… the CJ version is the quietest, but actually has a slightly heavier compression on it than the other two. Other than the two verses (which are Freddie and piano in the first lines of each), the rest of the track has been normalized to virtually the same level of about 88-90%. SC and JP 2001 are a little roomier – looks more like limiting than dynamic compression (especially in the first third of the track), and they are the same remaster, though SC is held back a little bit on its peak volume – maybe 94% or so. JP pushes it up to about 99%… ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST: CJ starts us off again, but it has some compression on it for sure. It’s not squared off, but the peak levels are even all the way through. SC adds just a bit of dynamic compression to boost the meat of the waveform and shelve off the peak levels a little further. The JP 2001 remaster is again a match of the SC – but boosted to about 98/99%. CRAZY LITTLE THING CALLED LOVE: is similar to PTG above. The SC and CJ versions have the same peak levels, but the CJ has more compression on it. The JP 2001 is a match to the SC, but again, it’s boosted to nearly the max of the CD’s volume. SAVE ME: clearly three different remasters here. The CJ version has some limiting on the loudest (chorus) sections, but still plenty of dynamic range. The JP remaster is almost maxed on peak volume, but actually has LESS compression it seems. Here, it appears the SC version is a match to the CJ version, only boosted up to the CD’s max volume… Full results summary coming soon… |
| rhyeking 03.07.2010 11:12 |
AKOAKOM and FWBFWBF only appear on the original 1986 release of the album in the US and the UK. I have the US copy, but not the UK release, so I don't know if it differs. I have no reason to think they would, as it was a mastered at Town House Studios, London, by Kevin Metcalfe. They probably sent this digital master to all territorites. This brings up something which has been bugging me in my research. The only 1994 Digital Masters Series tracks I own are from peripheral releases; individual songs which appear not on studio albums, but things like the 1995/1996 MIH singles, Queen Rocks and the Digital Master Sampler promo CD. As such, my knowledge of the DMS is limited. As a result, I have a few questions: Who remastered the DMS? I'm working on the assumption that Kevin Metcalfe was involved, as his name appears on Queen Rocks, which uses those remasters, and he was well-used at that point in Queen's production team. Were bonus tracks included on any of the DMS album releases? In the UK and US, the original AKOM and The Miracle albums on CD featured bonus tracks (they were the only original studio album CD releases to do so). Did these or other bonus tracks appear on the DMS releases? Anyone with a DMS copy of an album, could you please enlighten me? |
| joesilvey 03.07.2010 11:34 |
rhyeking wrote: AKOAKOM and FWBFWBF only appear on the original 1986 release of the album in the US and the UK. I have the US copy, but not the UK release, so I don't know if it differs. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the JP 2001 remaster of AKOM has both those bonus tracks plus Forever (piano version) as well |
| rhyeking 03.07.2010 12:01 |
Hmm, in that case, those remastered tracks are worth looking at. I don't own the 2001 JLP release. If you own them, perhaps we can compare their relative merits. As I said in my earlier post, that original 1986 digital master is quite good. It really comes down to minor differences between that and the later remasters (minor, but noticable). Given PM's statement that the 2001 remasters are "more intense," I'm curious whether this intensity improves or hinders the dynamic range of these tracks. |
| joesilvey 03.07.2010 12:22 |
JP 2001 remaster of AKOAKOM has some limiting on, but it appears it's mostly effecting the drum peaks throughout. the meat of the waveform is fairly low in relation. FWBFWBF is also tastefully done - just a little compression to even out the loudest sections, but again, lots of dynamic range left intact. As the JP remasters go, these are not extreme at all... |
| rhyeking 03.07.2010 13:14 |
I guess I'll have to find a copy of that and make the comparison. |
| rhyeking 04.07.2010 10:36 |
As promised, a friend was able to provide with the JLP remasters and I've made a minor revision to my AKOM list: 01) One Vision (1991 HR) 02) A Kind Of Magic (2010 SC) 03) One Year Of Love (2010 SC) 04) Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (1991 HR) 05) Friends Will Be Friends (2010 SC) 06) Who Wants To Live Forever (1991 HR) 07) Gimme The Prize (2010 SC) 08) Don't Lose Your Head (2010 SC) 09) Princes Of The Universe (2010 SC) Extra Magical Ingredients: 10) A Kind Of 'A Kind Of Magic' (2001 JLP) 11) Friends Will Be Friends Will Be Friends (2001 JLP) 12) Forever (2010 SC) 13) A Dozen Red Roses For My Darling (2010 SC) 14) Blurred Vision (2010 SC) I have to admit that while this list, for me, represents the best list, I was diggin' the previous list including masters from 3 different decades. I stand by what I said earlier though, that for the most part, these differences are not extreme, a lot of the re/masters sound really good and are fine on their own. Don't go thinking that because the CD you have isn't represented that it must totally suck. Not so. The differences we're looking at are in many cases a matter of degrees. |
| rhyeking 04.07.2010 16:29 |
Okay, we've covered Queen through to The Miracle. I'll admit, I'm at a loss for Innuendo and Made In Heaven, since I only own the original releases for both and none of the remasters. However, I do own several alternate remasters of particular songs as they appeared on later releases, such as GH3, Jewels I & II and Queen Rocks. I gave these tracks a good listen and discovered a few interesting things. "The Show Must Go On," as it appears on Jewels (presumably the 2001 Japan Remaster), does a strange thing at the beginning. After the first few seconds, it sounds like someone quickly turns up the volume. It's a little jarring and is definately not present on any other version of the song. "Headlong" on Queen Rocks (1994 DMS) sounds very loud and a bit compressed. I think we covered that QR was really ramped up for its release. It shows here compared to the Original 1991 Master "Therse Are The Days Of Our Lives" which appears on Jewels II (again, probably the 2001 Japan Remaster) has the high-end very dominant and almost tinny in places. The Original Master seems much better balanced. I suppose this will come down to which release we think is the best. Here's what we have to chose from: 1991 Original Master 1994 Digital Master Series 2001 Japan Remaster Series Next year I anticipate the Singles Collection Volume 4 will cover "Innuendo," "I'm Going Slightly Mad," "Headlong (Single Version)," "The Show Must Go On" and "These Are The Days Of Our Lives,' which will give us 4 new Peter Mew remasters we can look at for consideration. Similar to the first couple albums, the last few don't give us many choices for alternate masters. Made In Heaven, released in 1995, has even fewer alternate masters...actually, only one I know of: the 2001 Japan Remaster. I gave the three tracks which appear on Jewels I & II, "I Was Born To Love You," "Too Much Love Will Kill You" and "Made In Heaven," a comparison listen with the Original Master and found almost no difference (the OM seemed to have more low-end presence, but not by much). That's the best comparison I can offer, but if someone has the 2001 JLP remaster AND the 1995 OM let us know which you think is superior. again, the 2011 Singles Collection 4 will probably have a few MIH tracks and will allow for a few alternate remasters by PM. |
| joesilvey 04.07.2010 16:52 |
rhyeking wrote: "The Show Must Go On," as it appears on Jewels (presumably the 2001 Japan Remaster), does a strange thing at the beginning. After the first few seconds, it sounds like someone quickly turns up the volume. It's a little jarring and is definately not present on any other version of the song. ............................................................................................................................ I can't imagine that Jewels would use anything other than the 2001 JP remasters... but i just popped my JP Innuendo cd in to check out TSMGO, and i've got no discernible volume change anywhere up to Freddie's first vocal. maybe an error... anyone else have Jewels (and a sharp ear) that can verify? |
| rhyeking 04.07.2010 17:10 |
Could be an error exclusive to Jewels, but it IS there. I imagine the engineer or someone thinking, "Crap, it's too quiet!" and raising the volume after the song starts. Probably not what happened, but it sure sounds like it. The CD it appears on (which *I* have) is the 2006 Japan Tour Edition. Joe, I fired you a PM (not a Peter Mew, the other kind). Also, which version of Innuendo do you prefer, if you have the OM to compare the 2001 JLP to? |
| rhyeking 05.07.2010 23:14 |
Okay, just when you thought we were finished...well, think again! We looked at Live Killers, but Queen have had a few live releases in addition to that. So, here we go... Live Magic: I own only the original 1987 release, which sounds alright. Does anyone have more than one edition who can make a comparison? Actually, that's not entirely true. I own Live Magic on LP and CD, both from 1987; original masters. I mentioned in a previous thread that there is something of a myth around this release. The CD claims that certain tracks are the full versions. This is true. HOWEVER, these same tracks are complete on the LP. I bought the LP after the CD, curious what the edits were which the CD sleeve implied were contained on the LP. Turns out, the tracks are all EXACTLY the same. The only difference between the CD and LP is that Freddie's improv with the audience is absent on the LP. That's it! Known remasters: 1994 Digital Master Series 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Live At Wembley '86: The original 1992 master was incomplete, believe it or not. I first noticed the discrepency watching the VHS release (also incomplete). "Tutti Frutti" on the original release is editted for some odd reason. The reprise at the end is absent. The VHS features the complete version (of that song, but is missing about half the rest of the concert...oh well). The 2003 re-issue and remaster features the complete concert and sounds much cleaner to me. My vote is that the 2003 remaster is the current best version (and you get a few bonus tracks; always a treat). Known remasters: 1994 Digital Master Series 2001 Japan Digital Remasters 2003 "Live At Wembley" Remaster Queen At The Beeb/Queen At The BBC: In the UK, this was released in 1989 on Band Of Joy Records, as Queen At The Beeb, and some could argue against it's inclusion in the Queen pantheon of original releases. In 1995, Hollywood Records released it's own version (same tracks), remastered, titled Queen At The BBC. To US listeners it was a legit, official release (before you argue, remember that the UK got Live Magic and the US didn't! Should the US audiences still consider LM a full member? Answer: they're both legit...deal with it!) So, what's to say about these? I own Queen At The Beeb, the 1989 UK release. I bought it 1993 or 1994, before the HR re-issue. When 1995 saw the US release, I looked at it and said, "Hmm, I've got this already" and being a poor university student, I didn't buy it. So, I can't say how the 1995 remasters stand up. I CAN say that for some tracks, the remasters don't end there. Observe... 01) My Fairy King (1996 EMI Remaster)* 02) Keep Yourself Alive (1998 CJ)** 03) Doing Alright (1996 EMI)* 04) Liar (1996 EMI)* 05) Ogre Battle (1989 OM) 06) Great King Rat (1989 OM) 07) Modern Times Rock And Roll (1989 OM) 08) Son And Daughter (1989 OM) bonus track: 09) We Will Rock You (Fast Version) (2002 Sun Promo Master)*** * These three tracks appeared on the 1996 "Let Me Live" CD single #1, but as Queen At The Beeb, to my knowledge, was NOT part of the Digital Master Series in 1994 in the UK, these must be unique remasters (or unique Original Masters, if you insist Band Of Joy Records' master isn't official enough). ** Curiously, like the Long Lost Re-take of KYA, the 1st Session BBC Version of KYA was remastered by the mighty Peter Mew exclusively for the Crown Jewels Promo Sampler CD single. So, that entire session saw a full remaster over two different points (OR, is it possible that PM did the entire session [or the entire album?] either for the then-forthcoming Crown Jewels boxed set or for another reason?) . Either way, two single releases, each on opposite sides of the Atlantic, gave us a few alternate remasters after the Hollywood Records one. *** Yup, just to make your brain hurt a bit more, this counts too. The infamous "We Will Rock You" Sun Promo CD single from 2002 features the only other official release of a BBC track (technically half the track, as the first half [the "stomp, stomp, clap" portion] is absent, but as the full version [like the full version of "Ogre Battle"] has not seen an official release, we're left to deal with what we have here). It's mentioned here as a bonus track, so don't sweat if you don't feel like including it, as it wasn't part of the original release. Known (re)masters: 1989 Original Master (Band Of Joy Records) 1995 Hollywood Records 1996 EMI Remaster (MFK, DA & Liar) 1998 Crown Jewels Remaster (KYA) 2002 Sun Promo Master (WWRY) And you thought we were past the interesting parts! Shame on you! :-) |
| joesilvey 06.07.2010 11:28 |
just a quick addition to my SHA remaster analysis... (from my previous post on the PM remastered tracks Killer Queen / Now I'm Here from SHA): "...the version that appears to be closest to the dynamic range of the original master is the CJ 1998 version. Not a weak specimen by any stretch (its peak levels are right around 90% of the loudness capable on the CD). Next is the Singles Collection version, which so far has been the MOST compressed of these tracks in question. with KQ, it appears the peak level is unchanged, but the dynamic range has been normalized a little bit. The quietest parts have been "brought forward" to even out / compress the track. And the most effected version of the three is the 2001 JP remaster, which in relation to the Singles Collection version adds overall dynamic compression for even more sonic normalization throughout the track, as well as a slight boost in overall peak volume. NIH: CJ 1998 comes in the mildest once again, with the peaks hitting around 85+%. Next is the 2001 JP remaster, with just a little peak volume boost, and a subtle amount of dynamic compression. Again looks like about a 10% increase in level and a good boost in even volume density throughout. The SC version is virtually IDENTICAL to the 2001 JP remaster." having now obtained an original 1974 vinyl rip of SHA's side A, I did an analysis of that versus the previous remasters. Crown Jewels, as it turns out, is not anywhere close to being an accurate representation of the original master. Even as mild as it is in comparison to the later PM jobs with JP 2001 and SC, it's QUITE compressed in relation to the vinyl rip. I was pretty stunned to see what a huge difference there is. Certainly the balance within the mix, the EQ, presence, etc. are sonically very different to the ears. I listened to the vinyl rip on my stereo, and though the clarity was very good, it definitely didn't have the richness or even warmth that the MFSL versions of NOTW and ADATR have. The sound was a little thin to my ears overall, and i found myself wishing for greater bass presence and punch. SHA has always been one of Queen's most raw recordings to me, so some of the lack may just have been the nature of these tracks. Anyway - many thanks to my friend for the work of getting it to me for review. very interesting to see just how drastically remastering can change a song from it's original form. by the time you get to an extreme compression like AG has, you're basically putting a track on steroids. |
| pittrek 06.07.2010 12:16 |
rhyeking wrote: Okay, just when you thought we were finished...well, think again! We looked at Live Killers, but Queen have had a few live releases in addition to that. So, here we go... Live Magic: I own only the original 1987 release, which sounds alright. Does anyone have more than one edition who can make a comparison?I own the original CD release and the Japan remaster if it helps Live At Wembley '86: The original 1992 master was incomplete, believe it or not. I first noticed the discrepency watching the VHS release (also incomplete). "Tutti Frutti" on the original release is editted for some odd reason. The reprise at the end is absent. The VHS features the complete version (of that song, but is missing about half the rest of the concert...oh well). The 2003 re-issue and remaster features the complete concert and sounds much cleaner to me. My vote is that the 2003 remaster is the current best version (and you get a few bonus tracks; always a treat). Known remasters: 1994 Digital Master Series 2001 Japan Digital Remasters 2003 "Live At Wembley" RemasterWell to be honest I always considered "Live at Wembley '86" and "Live At Wembley Stadium" two completely different releases of the same album :-) And maybe it's worth mentioning that the 2003 release had in some countries bonus tracks from other '86 concerts, the European release (and the Japan release) feature only the Wembley concert. Queen At The Beeb/Queen At The BBC: In the UK, this was released in 1989 on Band Of Joy Records, as Queen At The Beeb, and some could argue against it's inclusion in the Queen pantheon of original releases. In 1995, Hollywood Records released it's own version (same tracks), remastered, titled Queen At The BBC. To US listeners it was a legit, official release (before you argue, remember that the UK got Live Magic and the US didn't! Should the US audiences still consider LM a full member? Answer: they're both legit...deal with it!) So, what's to say about these? I own Queen At The Beeb, the 1989 UK release. I bought it 1993 or 1994, before the HR re-issue. When 1995 saw the US release, I looked at it and said, "Hmm, I've got this already" and being a poor university student, I didn't buy it. So, I can't say how the 1995 remasters stand up. I CAN say that for some tracks, the remasters don't end there. Observe... 01) My Fairy King (1996 EMI Remaster)* 02) Keep Yourself Alive (1998 CJ)** 03) Doing Alright (1996 EMI)* 04) Liar (1996 EMI)* 05) Ogre Battle (1989 OM) 06) Great King Rat (1989 OM) 07) Modern Times Rock And Roll (1989 OM) 08) Son And Daughter (1989 OM) bonus track: 09) We Will Rock You (Fast Version) (2002 Sun Promo Master)*** * These three tracks appeared on the 1996 "Let Me Live" CD single #1, but as Queen At The Beeb, to my knowledge, was NOT part of the Digital Master Series in 1994 in the UK, these must be unique remasters (or unique Original Masters, if you insist Band Of Joy Records' master isn't official enough). ** Curiously, like the Long Lost Re-take of KYA, the 1st Session BBC Version of KYA was remastered by the mighty Peter Mew exclusively for the Crown Jewels Promo Sampler CD single. So, that entire session saw a full remaster over two different points (OR, is it possible that PM did the entire session [or the entire album?] either for the then-forthcoming Crown Jewels boxed set or for another reason?) . Either way, two single releases, each on opposite sides of the Atlantic, gave us a few alternate remasters after the Hollywood Records one. *** Yup, just to make your brain hurt a bit more, this counts too. The infamous "We Will Rock You" Sun Promo CD single from 2002 features the only other official release of a BBC track (technically half the track, as the first half [the "stomp, stomp, clap" portion] is absent, but as the full version [like the full version of "Ogre Battle"] has not seen an official release, we're left to deal with what we have here). It's mentioned here as a bonus track, so don't sweat if you don't feel like including it, as it wasn't part of the original release. Known (re)masters: 1989 Original Master (Band Of Joy Records) 1995 Hollywood Records 1996 EMI Remaster (MFK, DA & Liar) 1998 Crown Jewels Remaster (KYA) 2002 Sun Promo Master (WWRY) And you thought we were past the interesting parts! Shame on you! :-)Can somebody compare the Sun Promo version of WWRY with the version which I shared here some time ago ? I personally prefer the version I shared, which is quite strange since a professional release should sound better :-) |
| rhyeking 06.07.2010 12:22 |
This brings up an interesting point, which is that even though I own vinyl LP copies of every Queen album and all the older live albums, I haven't really engaged in an out-and-out comparison of the LPs verses the various remasters. This was partly because the thread was centered on the remasters and partly because my record player died long ago and I haven't replaced it yet. It seems, based on your analysis, Joe, that different remasters and the different people who do them either aim for a certain result or, by their particular ear, try to achieve what they think is the optimal balance. For example: The 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series wanted an "extreme" range. The 1997 Queen Rocks album mastering ramped up the volume overall The 2009 Absolute Greatest remaster is "pumped full of steroids" The various Hollywood Records remasters seem to me to at least be trying to achieve the best overall sound (richness, texture), but aim for improved clarity throughout, as well. Peter Mew's newest Singles Remasters seem to be trying improve the clarity and keep it at a highest dynamic range. I look forward to your continued analysis of the different remasters and can't wait to read the the conclusions you glean in this thesis! |
| joesilvey 06.07.2010 14:42 |
rhyeking wrote: It seems, based on your analysis, Joe, that different remasters and the different people who do them either aim for a certain result or, by their particular ear, try to achieve what they think is the optimal balance. ............................................................................................................................................................... Exactly - and well said. I'd also alter your 2001 JP example slightly: The 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series wanted a more "extreme" amount of dynamic compression Agree with these: The 1997 Queen Rocks album mastering ramped up the volume overall The 2009 Absolute Greatest remaster is "pumped full of steroids" =) The various Hollywood Records remasters seem to me to at least be trying to achieve the best overall sound (richness, texture), but aim for improved clarity throughout, as well. Peter Mew's newest Singles Remasters seem to be trying improve the clarity and keep it at a highest dynamic range. now, as i've said before, i can enjoy and appreciate the AG remastering for what it is. It's nice to have those tracks stand up strong next to songs that were just mastered this year. But I really appreciate the approach PM took with the SC, too, for a more balanced result. The MFSL versions i now have are also wonderful as they preserve the relative volumes much more than typical remasters do. Two voices are twice as loud as one voice - hmm, what a concept! |
| rhyeking 06.07.2010 16:15 |
Re: Wembley I guess I consider "Live At Wembley Stadium" a re-issue of "Live At Wembley '86." I suppose it's fair to look at them as two seperate releases, but we still arrive at the same location. It's much like the "Queen At The Beeb" and "Queen At The BBC." No matter how we look at it, it's the same material. And "Live At Wembley Stadium" is the complete concert. "Wembley '86" still has the "Tutti Fruit" edit. I thought every territory got the bonus tracks on the 2003 release. Is that not the case? Re: Beeb/BBC A good friend fired me off a copy of the 1995 HR Queen At The BBC and I'm re-evaluting my position on The Best Remaster. It also may be that the "Let Me Live" CD single used the 1995 HR remasters (they certainly used the same artwork). Furthermore, it could well be that the 1995 HR remaster of KYA BBC is what appears on the CJ Promo CD. They sound very similar. I don't know how your copy WWRY BBC sounds,Pittrek, the bootleg copy I have of the full version (slow+fast) sounds way to high-end dominant. There's not much middle or low end presence at all. The official release of the Fast section could use a little more high end (but this could be my ear being used to the unofficial version), but the mid- and low-range are accounted for. |
| joesilvey 06.07.2010 22:33 |
Here’s a summary of the tracks I did waveform analyses for, among the (3) versions of Peter Mew’s remastering work. L to R, classified in order of least dynamic compression and volume boosting to most. Keep Yourself Alive JP-2001 CJ-1998 SC-2008 Son And Daughter CJ-1998 JP-2001 SC-2008 The Seven Seas of Rhye CJ-1998 JP-2001 SC-2008 Killer Queen CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Now I’m Here CJ-1998 (JP-2001 / SC-2008)* Death On Two Legs CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Bohemian Rhapsody (CJ-1998 / SC-2008)*** JP-2001 You’re My Best Friend CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 ’39 CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Somebody To Love CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)** We Will Rock You CJ-1998 (SC-2008 / JP-2001)** We Are The Champions (SC-2008 / JP-2001 / CJ-1998) all three of these very similar Sheer Heart Attack CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Spread Your Wings CJ-1998 (SC-2008 / JP-2001)** Bicycle Race SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)* In Only Seven Days SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)* Don’t Stop Me Now SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)* Now I’m Here (live) xx-xxxx (JP 2001 / SC-2008)* Play The Game CJ-1998 (SC-2009 / JP-2001)** Another One Bites The Dust CJ-1998 (SC-2009 / JP-2001)** Crazy Little Thing Called Love SC-2009** CJ-1998 / JP-2001** Save Me CJ-1998** JP-2001 / SC-2009** * identical remasters in waveform and peak volume level ** identical remasters in waveform but boosted peak volume level in the latter *** identical remasters in waveform and peak volume level, but CJ contains prevalent tape hiss and low-frequency hum, and SC does not. JP 2001 also contains hiss/hum. As a Queen fan who admires ALL their work, I still favor certain tracks over others. My hope, in this long-winded look through the above list, is that some of you out there can use this as a template to guide what you seek of Queen remasters and why – driven above all by your own personal taste for the varying sonic results. |
| joesilvey 06.07.2010 22:34 |
And as an additional sidebar to my previous updated SHA analysis to include the original vinyl, I’ve read recently that the 180-gram vinyl remasters are more compressed and digital-sounding, so if anyone is considering the purchase thinking you’d be buying the now out-of-print original masters of the albums, the audio is apparently modernized (to some degree)… makes you wonder what's the point of the vinyl issues if they don't differ from the digital / CD remaster releases!? |
| rhyeking 06.07.2010 23:46 |
Outstanding, Joe! I'm copying that list for my notes, with full credit to you for the hard work. It's exactly the kind of thing I'll refer too. Are you planning to continue with the rest of the '80s tracks? You're under no obligation, but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying we'd appreciate it here. As for your addititional post, I suspected that these vinyl re-issues would be updated. Vinyl today is a curious thing and I'm sure we could do a whole thread on the topic, but here are some of my thoughts. In the early to mid '90s, vinyl was dead. Deader than corduroy! It seemed CDs had finally overtaken them as the contemporary medium for music. For the general public, CDs sounded better, were easier to transport, maintain, use and play in your car. How could a vinyl record compete with that? Well, they couldn't and nearly everyone sold off their records in garage and yard sales by the milk crate load. Fortunately for me, they were selling them cheap. After all, who wanted records when you could buy CDs? The answer: I did. Now, don't get me wrong. I was not then, nor am I now, a vinyl elitist. Not by a long shot. I'm much more pragmatic. In the early '90s I was just getting in to classic rock. I've told part of this story on other threads, but at the time when Grunge was king, I needed something different. I hated Grunge and still think a lot of it is self-indulgent bullshit. I didn't hate my parents or my school or lifem so what Nirvana and Pearl Jam were selling, I wasn't buying (literally or figurtively). This didn't make particularly popular in school, but that wasn't a problem either as I was working in theatre and mostly with adults; adults who listened to classic rock. After some exposure to it, I found that these were the bands and artists for me! The Who, Led Zepplin, The Rolling Stones, The Guess Who, Rush, Meat Loaf, Bruce Springsteen and of course Queen were what I fell in love with (to name a few). And my timing was perfect, as I cycled around my small town on weekend, there were always a few yard sales going on. Whole bins of great music on vinyl. LPs for days! And dirt freakin' cheap: $1 each, or 50 cents or 3 for a $1. They were practically giving them away and since I was not actually making money working in theatre, those were the prices for me! So, I commandeered my parents' old record player from the basement, hooked it up to my stereo system and let the inexpensive greatness wash over me. I educated myself on bands and artists. This was before the internet, so there was NO wikipedia or fan page for anything. I had to do honest-to-God reading of books. The best education was putting that old LP of Who's Next or Queen II on and rocking out while my peers lamented that everything smelled teen spirit and that Jeremy spoke in class today (I still don't like Grunge). Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells sent my imagination soaring in a way C+C Music Factory never could (I also don't like '90s Dance Music). I still own those records, probably all of them first pressings. And for Queen, ALL are the original pressings and original masters (I sound like a douche saying something like that, but I mention it only to point out my perspective, not to sound like my record collection kicks ass [it doesn't]). So, as I was saying, this was the era when vinyl was breathing its last. Then came the dark times. Then came the Loudness Wars! That's right, record companies wanted LOUDER! Fill that CD was as much sound as possible. Screw subtly. Kids today want deafening! Well, that caused some people to reject CDs and the good thing for them was that MP3s were now possible. Throw out your old mix tapes, kids, you can burn your own CDs! Napster fueled the fire and sacrificed itself so that other file-sharing software could rise from its ashes. No longer was musis bound by a physical medium and songs were interchangable. A whole generation of kids now do not understand the base premise or purpose of an album. Why, they ask, do the songs need to be in this order? They have 100,000 songs on their iPod, who cares WHEN they were recorded?! For a time, all seemed lost in the great nebulous cloud of music. What did it all mean? So many songs... CD sales plummeted. They still haven't recovered and probably never will, now that iTunes reigns supreme (but for how long...?). Yet, a curiuos thing began to wriggle and squirm under the weight of so much disconnected and discordant sonic information. That thing was nostalgia. It rises it's head every generation and casts its gaze into the past just as pop culture seems to not know what to do with itself. Nostalgia spoke of better, simpler times when music was shaped and crafted by artists who had a vision the kids now lacked. Records, on vinyl, were the stuff of a by-gone age, but...Lo! What's this sitting on the shelf of Sunrise Records and HMV? A record! An honest-to-goodness LP. And not just one, but many! Great and clear images and artwork beckoned the lost souls, whose iPods buzzed tinnily in their ears. And the people bought them and started to re-learn what was almost lost to a generation: Albums were good. Albums were works of art, greater than the sum of their songs. Albums, be they on vinyl or CD or cassette, were clawing their way back. Yet, some records were "improved." Remastered by the industry in order to give the listener wants the record company thinks this generation wants. I don't know if it is a blessing or a curse that certain new vinyl reproductions are presented this way. I don't know if this generation knows or cares that what they are getting is not the original sound as heard by their parents and grandparents. We live in interesting times and all we can do make them understand and allow them to decide. |
| cmsdrums 07.07.2010 05:19 |
This is such a great thread - cheers guys! It does make me wonder what Brian would make of all this, and whether he has an opinion on the 'best' remasters? I do remember him posting a very long soapbox article years ago when one of the heavy vinyl repressings of ADATR was released, and he went into technical details about the depth of groove of the vinyl, and how the techniques used on this version differed from the mastering and manufacturing processes on the original, and so he is obviously very clued up on exactly the sort of things we (you!) are talking about here. It may be worth digging out his post about that to see if it is of any help?? Cheers again |
| Toozeup 07.07.2010 10:52 |
Brian and Roger were both heavily involved with the 1994 digital remasters so I always presumed these to be pretty definitive but the majority of fans on here appear to be from the US so it's hard to compare to the hollywood remasters. I own 1994 DM & 2001 Japanese remasters of Queen I, Queen II & Sheer Heart. I personally prefer the 1994 DM series for all three as they seem to have a more balanced sound. The 2001 remasters are good transfers but there is too much limiting in places and I find the overall bass presentation urealistic, it just sounds too heavy. I have Shear Heart Attack on vinyl as well and this compares much more favourably to the 1994 DM. |
| rhyeking 08.07.2010 18:46 |
Hi, Tooze, a pleasure to see some new faces jumping right into the deep end! The DMS are the releases I know the least about. I only have maybe a couple dozen songs on different releases, so all I've been able to judge are those individual tracks and not full albums. I did give each track a listen as I worked on this thread and though they were decent, they always came up a few degrees behind the HR and SC remasters. That isn't to say they're bad, by no means are they, and there is a certain amount of subjectivity to it (what sounds good to person may not to another). When I reach my recap post, I'll talk about the different remasters' pros and cons from my point of view (the HR remasters aren't perfect either). |
| joesilvey 08.07.2010 19:50 |
btw, Rhye - thanks for your compliments on my wave analyses... it's the kind of thing that would be about as fun as watching paint dry for most, but I absolutely LOVE it. Thanks to a friend supplying a couple more JP remasters I'm currently missing, i will be able to continue my reviews into the 80's albums. Since Crown Jewels stops at The Game, i'll shift over at this point and begin comparisons among the Hollywood 1991 Remasters, JP 2001, and Singles Collection versions. Might you create list for me again, starting with Hot Space, that lists the tracks from each album that are identical edits / mixes among those three releases? (for HS, TW, AKOM, and TM). I think I'd be able to get it straight, but two heads on the job is better than one to ensure accuracy. =) actually, i may dip into looking at the Greatest Hits I, II, and III (platinum) and I (WWRY ed.) or even AG if I find too much similarity or disparity among the main three sources. Might you list those that are original album versions on those as well? Hope i'm not asking too much... Thanks in advance. here's to scrutiny! |
| rhyeking 08.07.2010 21:18 |
As requested... 2001 or 2009 or 2010 remasters Album Versions "Football Fight" "Staying Power" "Body Language" "Put Out The Fire" "Calling All Girls" "Life Is Real" "Las Palabras De Amor" "Cool Cat" "Under Pressure" "Radio Ga Ga" "Tear It Up" "It's A Hard Life" "Man On The Prowl" "Machines" "Keep Passing the Open Windows" "Is This The World We Created...?" "A Kind Of Magic" "One Year Of Love" "Friends Will Be Friends" "Gimme The Prize" "Don't Lose Your Head" "Princes Of The Universe" "The Invisible Man" "Breakthru" "Scandal" "Hang On In There"* * Yeah, this is under Album Versions even though it's a bonus track on the CD. That bonus track differs slightly from the B-side Version, which fades out earlier. And the "Album Version" is what appears (incorrectly) on the Singles Collection 3. Single Versions: "Flash" "Back Chat (Re-Mix)" "I Want To Brak Free (Single Remix)" "Hammer To Fall (Headbanger's Edit)" "One Vision (Single Version)" "Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (Single Remix)" "Who Wants To Live Forever (Single Version)" "I Want It All (Single Version)" Non-Album Tracks: "Soul Brother" "I Go Crazy" "Thank God It's Christmas" "Blurred Vision" "A Dozen Red Roses For My Darling" "Forever" "Stealin'" "Hijack My Heart" "My Live Has Been Saved" Did I miss anything? |
| Toozeup 09.07.2010 21:44 |
Just a quick note, The DMS series only covers albums Queen (s/t) - The works. I gues they deemed the masters beyond the work fine as they were all digitally mixed anyway. |
| rhyeking 09.07.2010 22:21 |
Oh, right on, Tooze! See, I never would have known that! It should have been obvious really, looking at the Digital Master Sampler track listing: “Liar” “Funny How Love Is (Digital Master Sampler Version)” “In The Lap Of The Gods…Revisted (Digital Master Sampler Edit)” “Lily Of The Valley (Digital Master Sampler Version)” “I’m In Love With My Car” “ ‘39” “You Take My Breath Away” “Spread Your Wings” “Mustapha” “Get Down, Make Love (Live Killers - Digital Master Sampler Version)” “Dragon Attack” “The Hero” “Staying Power” “Keep Passing The Open Windows” This also means that Queen Rocks only uses the DMS versions on the songs from those albums, except for "I'm In Love With My Car (Rocks Version)" which is an exclusive version. The other tracks, those not exclusive versions, must be from their Original Masters. Interesting. Also interesting, the Wikipedia entry on The Platinum Collection says that US and Canadian release of the boxed set, released in 2002, features the Japanese 2001 Digital Remaster Series versions of Hits 1 & 2. Take a look: link Now, Joe, you said previously that you have The Platinum Collection. Can you verify this? Don't go track by track. I think a random sampling of a few tracks would suffice to confirm the validity of the statement (only if you want to, no pressure). |
| joesilvey 09.07.2010 23:21 |
For the sake of a quick reply, I just looked at the waveforms of (3) songs from my Platinum Collection disc 1 and their JP 2001 remaster counterparts: Bohemian Rhapsody - PLAT is 10% quieter than JP in peak volume, shelved off by some kind of limiter. low-freq. hum that appears on the JP remaster is NOT on the PLAT version. Don't Stop Me Now - PLAT is close to the same peak volume, but JP remaster has slightly more extreme compression / limiting. Play The Game - PLAT is 15% quieter with quite a bit less compression. ... by this sample, could both these releases have come from the same remasters? sorry, random wikipedia contributor... don't think so... |
| rhyeking 09.07.2010 23:26 |
I guess that's what you get when you have an encyclopedic website anyone and their dog can edit. You've failed me again, Wikipedia! |
| joesilvey 13.07.2010 22:49 |
alright - time to break silence and give some wav analyses of the prominent Queen remasters of the 80's album tracks. Since Crown Jewels (ably done by the great Peter Mew) stops at The Game, my sampling trifecta going forward consists of: Hollywood Records 1991 remaster, Japan only 2001 remaster, and Singles Collection (reportedly new remasters and/or JP versions). I talked about the "Flash" track previously (even though it was single vs. album versions)... so the only other FLASH track to cover is the 7" b-side: FOOTBALL FIGHT: The HR version is the most subdued. other than the big hit at 1:25, the song is FAR from maxing out volume. It appears to have only minimal limiting applied, if anything. And the left channel is slightly louder overall. The JP remaster is SIGNIFICANTLY compressed, probably doubled in strength. The peak volume is roughly in the 92% range, the but track's waveform has been normalized overall. And the SC.... looks very similar to the JP remaster, but it's actually boosted another few percent in overall level to maximize the saturation on the disc. now, this is not a hit song, or a song of much consequence really, but it's telling (to me) of some pretty drastic things being done to the band's music. you've got to always use your ears. Hot Space tracks to come...(edit: computer crash at home yesterday, so it may some time before I get the old files sorted out and placed on the new system. as such, i'll have to pick up the wav analyses on the 80's tracks sometime down the road...) |
| rhyeking 14.07.2010 10:35 |
Sorry, I haven't been around for a few days. Excellent analysis as always, Joe. I've been re-evaluating the various lists, making a few changes here and there, based the contributions of the different posters. Expect a detailed recap post next week (my sister's wedding is this weekend, so I'll be out of town Fri to Sun). |
| rhyeking 26.07.2010 20:36 |
Sorry for the delayed summary. Just so all the lists are in the same place, here is the track by track look at what might be the best remasters. The lists are still open for discussion because we haven't really covered all the remasters that are out there, simply the one most widely available, for the most part. I'd love to hear the MSFL versions of Opera, Game and News. Also, Adam Unger pointed out that we never took a look at the Japan or EMI 3 inch CD single sets' remasters. There may be a few gems in those. And I'm willing to bet the MSFL releases rival any other remasters. Then there's the likelihood that the 2011 Single Collection 4 box will have some great Innuendo and Made In Heaven tracks remastered. And let's not forget the possibility (probability?) that Universal might put out a new series of remasters of their own. Anyway, here's what's been covered so far... Queen 01) Keep Yourself Alive (2008 Singles Collection Remaster) 02) Doing All Right (1991 Hollywood Records Remaster) 03) Great King Rat (1991 HR) 04) My Fairy King (1991 HR) 06) Liar (1991 HR) 07) The Night Comes Down (1991 HR) 08) Modern Times Rock and Roll (1991 HR) 09) Son And Daughter (2008 SC) 10) Seven Seas Of Rhye...(1991 HR) bonus tracks 11) Mad The Swine (1991 HR) 12) Keep Yourself Alive (Long Lost Re-Take) (1998 Crown Jewels Promo Sampler) Queen II 01) Procession (2001 JLP) 02) Father To Son (2001 JLP) 03) White Queen (2001 JLP) 04) Some Day One Day (2001 JLP) 05) Loser In The End (2001 JLP) 06) Ogre Battle (2001 JLP) 07) The Fairy Feller's Master-Stroke (2001 JLP) 08) Nevermore (2001 JLP) 09) The March Of The Black Queen (2001 JLP) 10) Funny How Love Is (2001 JLP) 11) The Seven Seas Of Rhye (2008 SC) bonus track 12) See What A Fool I've Been (2008 SC) Sheer Heart Attack 01) Brighton Rock (1998 CJ) 02) Killer Queen (2008 SC) 03) Tenement Funster (1998 CJ) 04) Flick Of The Wrist (1998 CJ) 05) Lily Of The Valley (1998 CJ) 06) Now I'm Here (2008 SC) 07) In The Lap Of The Gods (1998 CJ) 08) Stone Cold Crazy (1998 CJ) 09) Dear Friends (1998 CJ) 10) Misfire (1998 CJ) 11) Bring Back That Leroy Brown (1998 CJ) 12) She Makes Me (1998 CJ) 13) In The Lap Of The Gods...Revisited (1998 CJ) A Night At The Opera 01) Death On Two Legs (2008 SC) 02) Lazing On A Sunday Afternoon (2005 30th Anniversary Remaster) 03) I'm In Love With My Car (2005 AR) 04) You're My Best Friend (2008 SC) 05) '39 (2008 SC) 06) Sweet Lady (2005 AR) 07) Seaside Rendezvous (2005 AR) 08) The Prophet's Song (2005 AR) 09) Love Of My Life (2005 AR) 10) Good Company (2005 AR) 11) Bohemian Rhapsody (2008 SC) 12) God Save The Queen (2005 AR) A Day At The Races 00) A Day At The Races Fanfare (1996 MSFL) 01) Tie Your Mother Down (Single Version) (2008 SC) 02) You Take My Breath Away (1996 MSFL) 03) Long Away (1996 MSFL) 04) The Millionaire Waltz (1996 MSFL) 05) You And I (2008 SC) 06) Somebody To Love (2008 SC) 07) White Man (2008 SC) 08) Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy (2008 SC) 09) Drowse (1996 MSFL) 10) Teo Torriate (2006 High Definition Mix) News Of The World 01) We Will Rock You (2008 SC) 02) We Are The Champions (2008 SC) 03) Sheer Heart Attack (2008 SC) 04) All Dead, All Dead (1991 HR) 05) Spread Your Wings (2008 SC) 06) Fight From The Inside (1991 HR) 07) Get Down, Make Love (1991 HR) 08) Sleeping On The Sidewalk (1991 HR) 09) Who Needs You (1991 HR) 10) It's Late (1991 HR) 11) My Melancholy Blues (1991 HR) Jazz 01) Mustapha (1991 HR) 02) Fat Bottomed Girls (1991 HR) 03) Jealousy (1991 HR) 04) Bicycle Race (2008 SC) 05) If You Can't Beat Them (1991 HR) 06) Let Me Entertain You (1991 HR) 07) Dead On Time (1991 HR) 08) In Only Seven Days (2008 SC) 09) Dreamer's Ball (1991 HR) 10) Fun It (1991 HR) 11) Leaving Home Ain't Easy (1991 HR) 12) Don't Stop Me Now (2008 SC) 13) More Of That Jazz (1991 HR) Live Killers The 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series The Game 01) Play The Game (2009 SC) 02) Dragon Attack (2009 SC) 03) Another One Bites The Dust (2009 SC) 04) Need Your Loving Tonight (1991 HR) 05) Crazy Little Thing Called Love (2009 SC) 06) Rock It (Prime Jive) (1991 HR) 07) Don't Try Suicide (1991 HR) 08) Sail Away Sweet Sister (1991 HR) 09) Coming Soon (1991 HR) 10) Save Me (2009 SC) bonus track 11) A Human Body (2009 SC) Hot Space 01) Staying Power (2009 SC) 02) Dancer (1991 HR) 03) Back Chat (1991 HR) 04) Body Language (2009 SC) 05) Action This Day (1991 HR) 06) Put Out The Fire (2009 SC) 07) Life Is Real (2009 SC) 08) Calling All Girls (2009 SC) 09) Las Palabras De Amar (2009 SC) 10) Cool Cat (2009 SC) 11) Under Pressure (2009 SC) bonus track 12) Soul Brother (2009 SC) The Works 01) Radio Ga Ga (2009 SC) 02) Tear It Up (2009 SC) 03) It's Hard Life (2009 SC) 04) Man On The Prowl (2010 SC) 05) Machines (2009 SC) 06) I Want To Break Free (1991 HR) 07) Keep Passing The Open Windows (2010 SC) 08) Hammer To Fall (1994 DMS) 09) Is This The World We Created...? (2009 SC) bonus tracks 10) I Go Crazy (2009 SC) 11) Thank God It's Christmas (2010 SC) 12) Radio Ga Ga (Instrumental) (1984 OM) 13) Machines (Instrumental) (1992 BOT) A Kind Of Magic 01) One Vision (1991 HR) 02) A Kind Of Magic (2010 SC) 03) One Year Of Love (2010 SC) 04) Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (1991 HR) 05) Friends Will Be Friends (2010 SC) 06) Who Wants To Live Forever (1991 HR) 07) Gimme The Prize (2010 SC) 08) Don't Lose Your Head (2010 SC) 09) Princes Of The Universe (2010 SC) Extra Magical Ingredients: 10) A Kind Of 'A Kind Of Magic' (2001 JLP) 11) Friends Will Be Friends Will Be Friends (2001 JLP) 12) Forever (2010 SC) 13) A Dozen Red Roses For My Darling (2010 SC) 14) Blurred Vision (2010 SC) Live Magic 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series The Miracle 01) Party (1991 HR) 02) Khashoggi's Ship (1991 HR) 03) The Miracle (1991 HR) 04) Want It All (2001 JLP) 05) Breakthru (2010 SC) 06) The Invisible Man (2010 SC) 07) Rain Must Fall (1991 HR) 08) Scandal (2010 SC) 09) My Baby Does Me (1991 HR) 10) Was It All Worth It (1991 HR) bonus tracks 11) Hang On In There (2010 SC) 12) Chinese Torture (1991 HR) 13) Stealin' (2010 SC) 14) Hijack My Heart (2010 SC) 15) My Life Has Been Saved (2010 SC) Queen At The Beeb/BBC 1995 Hollywood Records Remaster Innuendo 1991 Original Master Live At Wembley ‘86/Live At Wembley Stadium 2007 Re-issue Remaster Made In Heaven 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series Queen Rocks 01) We Will Rock You (2008 SC) 02) Tie Your Mother Down (2008 SC) 03) I Want It All (Rocks Version) (1997 QR) 04) The Seven Seas Of Rhye (2008 SC) 05) I Can't Live With You (1997 Rocks Retake) 06) Hammer To Fall (1994 DMS) 07) Stone Cold Crazy (1998 CJ) 08) Now I'm Here (2008 SC) 09) Fat Bottomed Girls (1991 HR) 10) Keep Yourself Alive (2008 SC) 11) Tear It Up (2009 SC) 12) One Vision (1991 HR) 13) Sheer Heart Attack (2008 SC) 14) I'm In Love With My Car (Rocks Version) (1997 QR) 15) Put Out The Fire (2009 SC) 16) Headlong (1991 OM) 17) It's Late (1991 HR) 18) No-One But You (1999 GH3) |
| Adam Unger (QueenVault.com) 25.08.2010 15:02 |
Here is a thread on an audiophile forum that I found interesting. Enjoy. link |
| rhyeking 25.08.2010 17:32 |
Interesting. I disagree with Roland on the quality of the Hollywood Records remasters, though I respect that he did a thorough comparison between editions, some of which were not covered by our thread. He also skipped a few albums, which I know is beside the point (Flash, Miracle, Innuendo, Heaven), and hadn't explored many of the later remasters after the MFSL releases, not like I expect him to. That would be a heck of an investment in time. In a way, it's a lot like movies which get remastered. Sometimes, the visual clarity is more than an audience member wants to see, that it loses that texture which older movies have and that fans are used to. It can be a no-win situation, where the original limitations are removed and a certain percentage of the audience says, "yeah, but it's not the same..." I'm somewhere in the middle, where I like a certain about of clean up, but too far and it loses something |
| joesilvey 25.08.2010 19:23 |
Agree, Rhye... despite any expert analyses, recommendations, and differentiation - the reality is that sonics are very subjective. I've heard albums (like the Queen MFSL versions, particularly ADATR) that are not modern masters, that sound PHENOMENAL to my ears when played on a great stereo system, and without any competing noise. The same master played from my iPod as i drive on the highway sounds very unimpressive and small. I've also heard heavily compressed remasters (and some heavily compressed original masters from the last 5-10 years) that sound HUGE wherever they're played. As i've said before, it's an art. and more often than not, an art whose estimation of beauty is in the ear of the listener... |
| rhyeking 25.08.2010 20:18 |
I've mentioned Mike Oldfield a number of times on this forum, of whom I'm a big fan. His older albums, from his days at Virgin Records, have gone through a couple of remasters each. The results were very uneven from album to album. In a few cases he was involved, but mostly not. Until recently, when he personally sat down with the engineers to remaster (in stereo) and remix (into 5.1) his early albums. Three are out so far with more on the way. But before these, I subjectively favoured the original masters for many of his releases, based on the subtle nature of his work getting lost. |
| Catbert 02.03.2011 17:30 |
Apologies for digging up this old thread, but it seems odd that, aside from a brief mention by rhyeking, the remixed Greatest Video Hits tracks have not been considered. These certainly have much better spatial and general separation, and sound way better than the latest remasters to me. OK they are in 5.1 DTS, but they also have a PCM stereo audio track for those of us who are numerically speaker-challenged, and there are various ways of playing 5.1 content in stereo through a computer. |
| joesilvey 02.03.2011 19:42 |
Catbert wrote: Apologies for digging up this old thread, but it seems odd that, aside from a brief mention by rhyeking, the remixed Greatest Video Hits tracks have not been considered. These certainly have much better spatial and general separation, and sound way better than the latest remasters to me. OK they are in 5.1 DTS, but they also have a PCM stereo audio track for those of us who are numerically speaker-challenged, and there are various ways of playing 5.1 content in stereo through a computer. ............................................................................................................... no apology necessary, my friend... with the new remasters' impending arrival, this discussion has been rendered incomplete! doubt i'll do an in-depth analysis, but I absolutely plan to buy the new re-issues, and i'll certainly weigh in my sonic opinion if anyone asks. interesting point you make... i honestly believe(d) the stereo audio tracks from the Greatest Video Hits are simply the single/video versions with no remixing done. The 5.1 track is a different story of course as they had to spread out the soundfield over front, rear, and center. Rhye (or anyone else still reading this)... any knowledge to put forth on the matter? |
| smilebrian 03.03.2011 05:03 |
I'm approaching the remasters with extreme caution. 1991 Hollywood, the 1994 EMI's, the 2001/04 Japanese, Crown Jewels, 2005 Ludwig ANATO etc etc. All rubbish. All of these remasters are easily bettered by the EMI CD Originals (and the Japanese 1987 CD originals). The MFSL's are nice, Jury's out for me whether I like these better than the originals. Hoffman absolutely nailed the ANATO DCC. The cd is absolutely magnificent, and the benchmark for all remastering in my opinion. The Queen catalogue has been handled appallingly. Can Ludwig save the day with the 2011's? I doubt it, I'm not sure he's been given full reign to do them properly. Hold onto those originals if you still have them. And dig them out if you've neglected them. They're better than any official Queen remastering that followed. |
| Catbert 04.03.2011 16:22 |
joesilvey wrote: ... i honestly believe(d) the stereo audio tracks from the Greatest Video Hits are simply the single/video versions with no remixing done. The 5.1 track is a different story of course as they had to spread out the soundfield over front, rear, and center. ----------------------------------- Conversly I assumed that because they went back to pre CD-master tapes/whatever to create the surround mix, they made a new stereo mix at the same time, albeit one that fairly closely matched the original and was probably just a downmix of the surround mix. Maybe I'm imagining things. It's so hard to be entirely objective about comparative listenings. That's why I hoped someone had done all the hard work, triple blind experiments etc, for me! Having done a comparison of Don't Stop me Now from Geatest Video Hits, 2008 remaster and 2011 remaster the main difference was the 2008 sounds very thin and trebly, the DVD sounds loud, but lots of bass and the 2011 sounds better balanced between bass and treble, but maybe with less spatial separation than the DVD. Perhaps the original CDs really are the best, but I'm guessing that's more to do with more dynamic range, less clipping and less EQing as opposed to the benefits of remixing from earlier generation sources. |
| rhyeking 13.03.2011 19:00 |
Sorry, folks, I was offline for 10 days at a cottage. Catbert, glad to have you aboard. If I remember correctly, we glazed over the Video Hits DVDs' versions for a few reasons: a) Some are disqualified by being the single versions of the songs (or are otherwise remixed or edited differently) and b) I was focusing on CD editions of the albums. I guess in my mind the medium (CD, DVD, LP, etc) was part of the criteria, as it's easy to rip a lossless WAV, for example, off a CD. Most common computer media programs allow you to do that. Less easy (but not impossible) is ripping audio from a DVD. Call me lazy, but I didn't want to get into that. smilebrian, I disagree, at least about the 1991 HR remasters. They may not be perfect, but overall I think they're well above par. A comparative analysis was done throughout this thread, but we all must concede that our own ears subjectively gauge the end result. If the EMI discs are your preferred editions, I can't argue with you. And yes, I was anticipating the Deluxe remasters joining the discussion. I'm curious to see what we come up with when those hit the shelves. I'm predicting opinions being vehemently divided. |