QueenZone discussion #1204787

  Van Basten 9 wrote: Zeb, do we know to the extent in which Brian re-did what J + R had done with these songs... did he really start them all from scratch? What a kick in the nuts if he did lol

Sebastian wrote: Absolutely not: songwriting was still dominated by Freddie, and both Roger and John contributed a lot to production as well as programming, not to mention lyrics. So, Queen was NEVER Brian, just like Queen was NEVER Freddie. Let's see track by track: Party: Songwriting-wise it's more Fred; playing-wise it's got more input from John (bass+rhythm) and Fred (piano+programming). Vocal-wise Fred dominates both lead and harmonies (though both B&R sing as well). So: it wasn't mainly Brian at all. Khashoggi's Ship: Pretty much 25-25-25-25. So: it was not mainly Brian. The Miracle: Songwriting's dominated by Fred; most instruments (piano+synth+samplers) are by Fred too; most vocals (almost all, actually) are Fred too. So: it was NOT mainly Brian. I Want It All: Songwriting's by May; most instruments by May; vocals are mostly May (most harmonies plus some lead). So yes, this one is. Invisible Man: Songwriting's Rog; most instruments by Rog (human drums, some programming); vocals are mostly Taylor (most harmonies plus some lead). So: NOT mainly Brian. Breakthru: Same as Invisible Man. Drums are at least partly programmed, but Brian's got nothing to do with it. So: NOT mainly Brian. Rain Must Fall: Songwriting's F&J; most instruments by Deacon (human bass, programming, synths and maybe some rhythm guitar); vocals are all Fred. So: NOT mainly Brian. Scandal: Written by May; all instruments except for (human, btw) bass and drums by May; vocals are all Fred. So yes, this one IS mainly Brian. My Baby Does Me: Written by F&J; most instruments by Deacy; most vocals by Fred (though Bri does sing some harmonies). But still: NOT mainly Brian. Was It All Worth It: Written by F; most instruments by F (loads and loads of synths); most vocals by Fred (the others join in the end, mostly). So: NOT mainly Brian. Innuendo: Written by F&R; most instruments by F (loads of synths); most vocals by Fred. So: NOT mainly Brian. Slightly Mad: Written by F; most instruments by F (piano, synth & programming); most vocals by Fred (though there are some by B). Still, NOT mainly Brian. Headlong: Written by B; most instruments by B (including programming); most vocals by Brian (most harmonies). So yes, this one IS mainly Brian. I Can't Live With You: Ditto. Ride the Wild Wind: Written by R; most instruments by R (including human drums & programming); vocals are a duet between F&R. So: NOT mainly Brian. All God's People: Written by F&M; most instruments by Mike (piano, synths & programming); vocals are mostly F. So: NOT mainly Brian. Days of Our Lives: Written by R; programming by all five (inc. D); vocals are all F. So: NOT mainly Brian. Delilah: Written by F; most instruments (piano, synth & programming) by F; all vocals by F. So: NOT mainly Brian. Don't Try So Hard: Written by F; all four played instruments in a more or less equal amount; vocals mostly F. So: NOT mainly Brian. The Hitman: Written by F, arranged by B&J; all four played instruments in a more or less equal amount; vocals feature both F&B. So: NOT mainly Brian (though he did contribute a lot). Bijou: Vocal lines by B; guitar lines by F; keyboard bits by F; title by F; instruments 50-50; vocals by F. So: NOT mainly Brian. Show Must Go On: Music by J&R; lyrics & melody by B; instruments mostly B (keys+guitars); vocals mostly by F&B (B on most harmonies). So yes: this one IS manly Brian. You Don't Fool Me: Credited either to F&R or F&J so... Brian's the one who contributed THE LEAST, not THE MOST. Winter's Tale: Written by F; most instruments by F; vocals are more or less balanced (F on lead, B&R on backing); So: it was NOT mainly Brian. Mother Love: Written by F&B; most instruments by B (keys, guitars & programming); vocals are more F than B. So: yes, it WAS mainly Brian. So we've got 25 songs written, recorded and released in albums after 'Magic'. Only 6 of them were dominated by Brian (24%, almost exactly the 1/4 each member represents). Conclusion: late era Q was ABSOLUTELY NOT mainly Brian. Only two Queen albums had Dr May as 'team leader', and those were 'News of the World' and 'Flash Gordon'. For the remaining 90% of the band history, Brian was NOT a dominating force. As for deciding on mixing et al, they kept the usual way: the author's got his way. So, for 76% of the songs, Brian was NOT the dominating force when it came to making decisions, etc. About 'MIH', the very hard task of re-arranging and recording was taken EQUALLY by the three surviving members. It was 1/3 by B, 1/3 by R, 1/3 by J.

Sebastian wrote: The Hitman: Written by F, arranged by B&J; all four played instruments in a more or less equal amount; vocals feature both F&B. So: NOT mainly Brian (though he did contribute a lot).

Cwazy little thing wrote:

Sebastian wrote: The Hitman: Written by F, arranged by B&J; all four played instruments in a more or less equal amount; vocals feature both F&B. So: NOT mainly Brian (though he did contribute a lot).

Whilst I dont question the overall conclusion in the slightest, and happily admit I am far from qualified to call into question any of that very thorough post, I am nevertheless inclined to ask a question, haha: If Freddie wrote The Hitman, why is there a demo with Brian singing the lead vocal and doing all the backing vocals?

mooghead wrote: "Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school'" I'm sorry but no one has ever said that, you are making stuff up now to back up your speculation.

Sebastian wrote: Freddie wrote the music, but not necessarily the lyrics. Here are some recurring themes: * Dr May sings the demo: True, BUT, it's a 1-minute demo. Even if it 'proved' he'd written those two verses (melody-wise and lyric-wise, including the 'shit' line that's not present in the final version), it does NOT mean, imply or suggest AT ALL that he created the remaining 81.756% of the song. * Dr May sings all backing vocals: Yes, so? While it was a frequent case to have the composer singing all BV's (e.g. Love of My Life, Tenement Funster, Leaving Home Ain't Easy), it is NOT an error-proof evidence (e.g. Scandal, Calling All Girls). * There'd never been a song written by Fred with the demo sung by somebody else before. Why would there be one then? Well, by that logic: Fred never died, because he hadn't died before. He wasn't born either... conclusion: there's a first time for everything. Considering his health and the fact they'd got some deadlines, it could happen that Bri stepped in to sing the 54-sec demo in order to keep the ball rolling. It does NOT mean or imply that he wrote the remaining 81.756% of the song, or that Fred had nothing to do with the music, lyrics or melody (of either that portion or the remaining 81.756% of the track). * Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school' (similar to 'school of lover boys'). Well: is it physically impossible for somebody else to write those lyrics? By that logic, because John wrote 'you ('re my best friend)' in his song, it instantly became strictly forbidden for anybody else on the planet to write the word 'you'. Hence, all the songs, poems or scripts having 'you' MUST have been penned by John Deacon. Of course, in the case Fred in fact wrote those two words, it doesn't AT ALL imply, prove or suggest he wrote the remaining 99.0521% of the lyrics. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Based on the existing data, both options are possible.

Mr Butambul wrote: Blimey....i'm enjoying the read.

Sebastian wrote: During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.

  Sir GH wrote:  

      Sebastian wrote:   During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.  

That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be. If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to.  You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there.  The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be. During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy.  If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.

Yara wrote: No one here was there. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum.

Yara wrote:

  Sir GH wrote:  

      Sebastian wrote:   During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.  

That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be. If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to.  You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there.  The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be. During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy.  If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.

Another good thread aborted.  [rolls eyes] No one here was there. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum.  I'd rather read logical, informed conclusions than illogical ones. It's enough that Sebastian's posts are helpful and thought provoking - much more so than anyone else's here lately.  Of course it's a matter of perception and personal opinion. And it is so even for the people who were actually there. Each one of them has his own perception of things and none of them holds the absolute pristine unassailable truth. The user is not saying otherwise. And he'd sound absolutely annoying if he started off every single sentence with "in my most humble opinion...". For anyone with a little bit of maturity, for Christ sake, it's obvious that he's stating his opinions, as everybody else does.  This is getting destructive and alienating one of Queenzone's most thoughtful posters. Not even the best researches are about spouting out "facts". It's always a matter of doing the best use of whatever evidence one may have at hand and, of course, resorting to reason and logic to put the pieces together.   If he's guilty of stating his logical conclusions based on the vast amount of things he read, then I'd like all users to be found guilty of the same crime. The criminal forum would be undoubtedly a better one.       

Sebastian wrote: During a Sunset Strip interview made to Maylor in 1991, Brian commented that he wasn't even in the room when Fred wrote it (the riff). He then changed the key and some of the notes to make it playable on guitar, and later on John would reconstruct the track, changing the order and (whatever he meant by) 'everything'. While that's as much circumstantial evidence as the BV's and the 54-sec demo (and the fact it's heavy says nothing... remember Ogre Battle, Princes of the Universe, Let Me Entertain You or even Was It All Worth It?), it makes sense considering the song, arrangement aside, does fit Fred's style a lot more than Brian's if you look through it musically. Of course, none of that gives us any account on the melody, the lyrics and other details. We do know, of course, that Brian was heavily involved with it, but that can also be said about Freddie and Radio Ga Ga and the song is still Roger's, isn't it? Or George Martin and Yesterday, etc. What can be inferred from both interviews and song analysis is that The Hitman's got a very mixed approach, with all sans Roger having a lot to do with it at some point (unless, hypothetically, Roger contributed to the lyrics rather strongly, there's nothing to confirm or deny that), which still works for the point I'm making (i.e. late era Q was NOT mainly Brian). The topic's far from being finished or cleared, and I hope one year from now we can look back and think 'how little we knew about it, and how much there's still to research on'... that's the whole point of these threads IMO.

Sebastian wrote:

Van Basten 9 wrote: To add... I manage bars and nightclubs in Scotland. Over the years i've worked in every part of the hospitality industry. I've worked in some fantastic management teams over the years and in turn, developed my own abilities through learning the best (in what I see) in my colleagues. The Van Basten 9 (lol) I am today, is very different from the Van Basten 9 of  5 years ago. I can see in myself some great changes in the way I operate and manage people/tasks etc. You may ask...WTF? But... Would the Queen members have retained their own unique style THROUGHOUT their Queen career (up to 1991)??? Or would they have let themselves learn from the other members in the group and in turn alter their style? I think the obvious answer is "yes"... but there were big arguments in the studios, they did have rows and conflicting views on how the material should ultimately sound... so much so that they let the song's creator have final say on it's end product? Would their "arrogance" (remember they are rock artists... and have said they were arrogant) have meant that they kept their individualism in the studio or could they have majorly altered the way they work to the point that they may even mimic the style/thinking of one of the others... thus making a discussion such as we're having all the more difficult? Especially when discussing or dissecting an individual song or era!!! e.g 1 :  I would have put money on the Hitman being Brian's song... both in writing and in the end product... heavy, strong guitars.. kinda like Headlong and I Want It All. I was shocked that it was Freddie's... but it could make sense that he'd written it in a Brian-esque way. This may suggest Sebastian is right in saying they were all 4 equal members, but there is still an argument against this conclusion... mainly down to their personalities and to the much documented rows they had in the studio, resulting in them putting Queen down as opposed to individual song writing credits from Miracle onwards to avoid them arguing further. e.g 2 : Of all the solo projects.... Freddie sounded like Freddie. Roger and The Cross, nothing like Queen in the slightest. John's Biggles thing i've never heard... Brian solo works sound like Queen albums (this all being what I hear, not on fact). With this in mind, could this alter the topic's argument in any way???? Even slightly lol